Merchants and Weapons

[BrokenRomance]

I feel like merchants should have a single weapon skill. Whatever is used specifically with daggers. Like, they have skills to wield them, but no skill in using a particular sort and historically most merchants carried some variant of short-blade on their persons.

Daggers, dirks, shivs, and stuff like that. The rondel dagger, which is used in game, was even largely something used by merchants later in it's existence and their is art showing it.

I guess it'd mean they'd also be able to use spears and things, which isn't really accurate, but I feel like 100% dependency to survive on other individuals at all times as defence it detrimental in the long run. What if the merchant knows nobody to Way and is stuck somewhere few people go? They could skirt the roads and pray to whoever they pray to that nothing comes for them, but if it does thy have their old dagger.

[Desertman]

They have base offense and defense scores already that can be raised. I've seen merchants go about doing it.

They also have access to advanced subguilds that can make them pretty strong actually.

I came into the T'zai Byn with a 15+ day ranger once and fought a Merchant Aggressor who had already made Trooper...they rolled me like a little bitch.

Basically, they can already do this and more.

[Yam]

I played a Byn sergeant a few years ago that got along fine without weapon skills. Considering there are now subguilds/extended subguilds with weapon skills I don't think it's an issue.

[SuchDragonWow]

I wouldn't mind if merchants got a low cap piercing skill when guilds are glossed over.  I mean, pick pockets and burglars get weapon skills, what IC reason do those guilds have for fighting that a merchant doesn't?

[Desertman]

I wouldn't mind if merchants got a low cap piercing skill when guilds are glossed over.  I mean, pick pockets and burglars get weapon skills, what IC reason do those guilds have for fighting that a merchant doesn't?

What IC reason is there that a Ranger can't kick enough to take off even 2 HP?

Sometimes there isn't and shouldn't be an IC reason.

[Asmoth]

My opinion is that the "problem" with arm is hard caps.

Nothing breaks immersion better than having a year old PC that's capped out in anything.

I honestly think that they should change the way we learn and just lower or raise learning rate versus remove hard blocks.

The RNG is brutal and in crafting skills particular it's not unheard of to have master level X and still fail at stuff over and over.  Imagine if you're stuck at journeyman, it blows.

[SuchDragonWow]

Rangers kicking people has never entered my mind as something iconic, but a terrified merchant clutching a dagger rings just as true to me as a greedy pickpocket with a blood-stained sap.

[Miradus]

To clarify, a rondel dagger grew out of the need to penetrate heavy suits of platemail. You'd knock the knight down with heavy weapons and then someone would jump on him and stab him through the eye-slits in his helm or force the rondel into one of the joints at the armpit. The newly discovered body of King Richard III had a post-mortem done and he had a probably-fatal rondel wound to the head after he was unhorsed and surrounded.

As for merchants carrying them, that evolved from the desire of upper class merchants to try and tie themselves to the knightly orders. "Oh, that guy is carrying a rondel. He must be a former knight." And of course what the upper class merchants did, so did the lower class ones.

How they make sense in this setting, I really couldn't tell you.

[nauta]

I think part of what might motivate the suggestion is a confusion I had about weapon skills when I played a gemmed with no weapon skills on the skillsheet, namely: I wasn't sure if I could even use the weapon type at all.  But in fact, owing to the hidden offense skill, we all have all the weapon skills at <novice> even if they don't show up on our skill sheet.  The skills that show up on your skill sheet are ones that you can progress in.  I'm not sure if there's an ideal solution, other than adding a quick line in 'help combat' to that effect.

However, if the OP is asking for merchants to have say 'piercing weapons' show up on their skill sheet (and thus allow merchants to progress in 'piercing weapons' to say journeyman or something) -- I don't think this is a bad idea.  

I quickly looked through the sub-guilds and none of the obvious ones (Gladiator, Guard, Outlaw, Thug, Bounty Hunter) offer you a weapons skill.  So it looks like you'd have to choose an extended sub-guild (e.g., Aggressor) to get a weapon skill.  (I could be wrong.)

[SuchDragonWow]

I think part of what might motivate the suggestion is a confusion I had about weapon skills when I played a gemmed with no weapon skills on the skillsheet, namely: I wasn't sure if I could even use the weapon type at all.  But in fact, owing to the hidden offense skill, we all have all the weapon skills at <novice> even if they don't show up on our skill sheet.  The skills that show up on your skill sheet are ones that you can progress in.  I'm not sure if there's an ideal solution, other than adding a quick line in 'help combat' to that effect.

I believe this is partly correct.  You can use the weapon, but have no skill in it.  It is common code knowledge that there are hidden offense/defense values, but having a weapon skill does appear to grant further benefit:

Weapon skills represent specialised knowledge in the use of a particular class of weapons. All weapons fall into one of four general categories: bludgeoning, chopping, piercing, and slashing. Stabbing weapons are merely a subset of piercing ones.

If one possesses, for example, the 'chopping weapons' skill, then one's usage of an axe is improved both in ability to land blows and to parry those of others, the degree of improvement depending on one's level of accomplishment in that skill.

Each category of weapon has its own characteristics, which should become evident as your character becomes more familiar with its usage.

Not that it really matters to a merchant.  And maybe that's why they don't bother to have a weapon skill in the first place.  Their shield block and weapon skill values would be poo to begin with.

I quickly looked through the sub-guilds and none of the obvious ones (Gladiator, Guard, Outlaw, Thug, Bounty Hunter) offer you a weapons skill.  So it looks like you'd have to choose an extended sub-guild (e.g., Aggressor) to get a weapon skill.  (I could be wrong.)

On the other hand, this is definitely incorrect.

Gladiators may become apprentices at fighting with slashing weapons. They are capable of learning kick, bash and disarm to the level of journeyman. Gladiators begin play with a slightly improved ability to withstand pain.

[BrokenRomance]

[



Not that it really matters to a merchant.  And maybe that's why they don't bother to have a weapon skill in the first place.  Their shield block and weapon skill values would be poo to begin with.

I have to say, I don't get why merchants just randomly have shield use. It could be better substituted for piercing to me, because as a merchant the thought of lugging around a shield has never actually struck me as very worth-while. A shield is something to protect you whlle you fight, and merchants don't fight that often.

It becomes even more confusing when you consider that the two offence skills offered to merchants are completely useless with a shield. You have to wield two /weapons/ according to dual wield, and two-handed is pretty straight-forward used in holding two-handed weapons.

At least piercing would give those two specific skills use, instead of there being three completely unrelated combat skjills. Even with the background skill, the likelihood of that little fluke of survival is pretty low again like.... Anything that hits back much unless you taint.

[SuchDragonWow]

Shield, two-hand and dual wield are weapon styles.  You can't do any of them at the same time and each of them works in conjunction with a weapon skill.

What I think would be cool is choosing weapon styles at creation.  Warriors get all three, Rangers and assassins pick two and the rest can pick one.

[AdamBlue]

Gladiators get slashing weapons up to app.
If you want to play a merchant with combat skill, make 'em a part-time gladiator. You'll be like a baby warrior with no defensive skills, but hey, with decent stats, you could probably take a gith at some point!

[Desertman]

Rangers kicking people has never entered my mind as something iconic, but a terrified merchant clutching a dagger rings just as true to me as a greedy pickpocket with a blood-stained sap.

Do you mean that because other iconic games/books/themes feature merchants in robes carrying the standard 1d4 dagger that Armageddon should too?

I'm not saying it's a horrible argument, it's really not I guess. I wish Armageddon would pull in  A LOT of other standard "iconic" things from other titles I personally enjoy....

But I'm not going to argue realism, or necessity, or anything else for those causes.

What I will argue?

I want it because I personally like the idea of it....and I won't pretend it's for any other reason.

[Desertman]

[



Not that it really matters to a merchant.  And maybe that's why they don't bother to have a weapon skill in the first place.  Their shield block and weapon skill values would be poo to begin with.

I have to say, I don't get why merchants just randomly have shield use. It could be better substituted for piercing to me, because as a merchant the thought of lugging around a shield has never actually struck me as very worth-while. A shield is something to protect you whlle you fight, and merchants don't fight that often.

I'm not sure exactly what the reason was when staff put it in/what they were thinking.

I can tell you that in reality shields weren't used in the way they were used in movies.

Mostly, you just put them on one side of your body and hold them relatively stationary and worry more about movement and the use of your sword-arm.

Shields were "MOSTLY" used in melee combat as little more than a limiting factor in that if you have one side of your body pretty much covered by a stationary barrier, then you don't have to worry about that whole side of your body.

I'm sure there were "Shield Masters" who took that to entirely new levels....but your standard "shield bearer" used it pretty much for this and only this.

So I guess where I'm going with this is.....using a shield for MOST people is just holding a shield and trying to keep it mostly stationary and protecting a single side of your body, which doesn't take a great deal of skill.

[Ath]

There are extended subguilds that cover this.

[Miradus]

There are extended subguilds that cover this.

Which ones are accessible to a 0-1 karma account holder?

[Desertman]

There are extended subguilds that cover this.

Which ones are accessible to a 0-1 karma account holder?

All of them if I understand the system correctly.

Your CPG is equal to 3 + your karma level.....I think.

If you karma level is 0, then your CGP is 3.

No extended subguild costs more than 3 CGP.

I could be wrong but I THINK that is how it works.

[BrokenRomance]

There are extended subguilds that cover this.

But what if I want my subguild to feature 2-3 skills I feel would be helpful to me, instead of 1? And the ones that interest me don't include a direct combat skill?

[Desertman]

There are extended subguilds that cover this.

But what if I want my subguild to feature 2-3 skills I feel would be helpful to me, instead of 1? And the ones that interest me don't include a direct combat skill?

Special Application

[Miradus]

I would be absolutely fine if you don't give my merchants any combat skills because with just the base offense/defense I can handle tregil and shik just fine. I don't expect to take on a carru.

I DO wish I had flee as a skill though.

[Armaddict]

I DO wish I had flee as a skill though.

The helpfiles for subguilds no longer list flee.

I very much hope they either gave everyone flee or they just became unlisted skills, because the insinuation that some people are incapable of knowing how to run away from something else without getting smacked every time is a pretty stupid position to hold.

[Miradus]

More than anything else, the absence of flee is what confines merchant play to city life.

Because unexpected carru is unexpected.

[Beethoven]

Yes please flee.

[RabidMuffins]

I think at least unarmed would be great, even if it was low capped. Maybe even just give flee so they have SOME chance to not be instakilled.