Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...

[Desertman]

Per Seidhr, moving this into its own thread. While my response below is regarding a question about the MMH system, feel free to drag anything else into this thread regarding player created groups/clans/content/staff support in this regard, since the conversation/derail we were on was really about that as a whole.

Honestly, I think the MMH system is fine. It's sufficiently difficult to rise to the levels of the Atrium, as it should be. When I threw my hat in the ring, the issue was simply finding the players to get started. On the other hand, I think I killed the best one for the job.

Regardless, I'd like to hear what you consider the flaws.

There are many issues and I will certainly outline several of them at some point.

In terms of difficulty, I agree, the system as it sits and as it is outlined is actually very adequately structured in terms of difficulty. It is surprisingly well done in this regard. The amount of money and time outlined for fees etc is very well done. If nothing else, this one thing alone is the thing that doesn't need to be touched.

One glaring issue to consider is that Shopkeeper Status, is for better or worse, not really any better than basic Warehouse Holder status but costs quite a bit more. It comes with a tiny little bit of prestige that quickly loses its luster when you realize at a mechanical level you have gained basically nothing and it has cost you a lot more.

In order to actually utilize your ability to own a Shop you have to be a mastercrafter. If you aren't a mastercrafter, you don't get to own a shop. It is highly recommended by myself that we open up the ability to put items on your Shop NPC that aren't your own mastercrafts. The list would be approved by staff and would be 8 - 10 items that both staff and the player involved agree fit the theme of the group. Raw materials, for example, or basic crafting recipes that aren't mastercrafts could be a possibility.

Moving on from that.

Even if you ARE a mastercrafter, the items you put on your NPC shop attendant will not be specific to your "group" at a coded level because you aren't codedly a group. Every single mastercraft you potentially put on that Shopkeeper WILL be craftable by every other PC in the Known World with a crafting skill that fits the bill.

It makes the idea of putting your mastercrafts on an NPC very unappealing. The fundamental difference sits directly in your ability to dictate your distribution agreements on your goods and track how they are distributed, to who, and when. I can tell you from experience this is a very important thing.

If you sell on your NPC shopkeeper, every crafter in the game can get their hands on your crafts with immunity and then recreate them to resell them around the world.

If you sell to a PC directly you can let them know, "This is "Insert Group's" design, you are not allowed to recreate this without someone coming after you. Before I sell this to you, I need you to agree to these terms.".

Some people might still do it. Most won't. Eventually your designs will get out but YOU will know who you have sold to and you can more readily track down at that point who is recreating your goods and act accordingly.

Basically, you are better off not owning a shop as a shopkeeper in the current incarnation of the system in just about every way, so owning said shop is pretty pointless.

Being a Shopkeeper for now in reality means your BEST outcome is getting an NPC guard who will not actually defend you or attack on your behalf in any way because you aren't a coded clan. The NPC guards can't be coded to be "on your side". It's the same reason crafts can't be coded to be made by your group specifically.

Shopkeeper in reality is just sort of the "long wait" with very little actual payoff between Warehouse Holder and Trade Company.

My recommendation in this regard would be to grant BASIC clan status to Shopkeeper level groups.

They would have one coded leader and one coded leader only.
That coded leader would have the ability to Recruit and Dump PC's only, and there would be only one coded rank below "Leader". They wouldn't get clan bank accounts, they wouldn't get any other clan perks. The only reason they are even coded as a clan is for the below.

This would allow your NPCs to actually do something/be worth something more often. They can be coded to "be on your side", instead of just act as decoration. (They would not be allowed to follow you around/carry things/act as a mobile guard etc. Their commands would be very limited.)

Most importantly this would allow you to designate your mastercrafts to your group to make the idea of actually using an NPC shopkeeper for your group much more appealing. You could put your mastercrafts on your NPC vendor and they would serve as more than just a list of recipes you are giving out to the playerbase out of the kindness of your heart, which is what it is now.

(To any staff who worked on this, I'm not bashing your system. For coming up with something that never had anyone actually USE it and at such a complex level this system is amazingly well done. It is by far one of the most interesting and fun things in the game in my opinion. You did great. However, since it has got some test-time, I think some negative feedback where applicable will be constructive and might be useful.)

[whitt]

Honestly, I think the MMH system is fine. It's sufficiently difficult to rise to the levels of the Atrium, as it should be. When I threw my hat in the ring, the issue was simply finding the players to get started. On the other hand, I think I killed the best one for the job.

Regardless, I'd like to hear what you consider the flaws.

For me?  The biggest one is that one character dies and the whole MMH is shut down.

Contract is specific to the founder. This means that if the PC founder dies or stores, your clan will (typically) die with that PC.

Trying to keep a PC alive for a RL year is hard, especially without latching onto an NPC organization that can protect you.  Trying to keep an independent alive just through the getting to competent stage is a struggle.  Trying to keep one specific PC with a giant bullseye on their chest alive for the 8 IC years needed just to become a Trading House?  If Everything goes right.  Oofta.  How many independent characters have been around that long?

Add into this that once you start to rise, there's finally a target for the GMHs, the thieves, the assassins, and the schemers to jump on that isn't big enough to outright squash them for trying and I'll vote the task is insurmountable.  Because of the founder-PC clause.  From an MCB slant?  You can't even backstab your boss while they reach for the brass ring an prise it from their still warm fingers.  Because then you have to survive 8 more IC years.

I get the potential for a true sense of accomplishment if someone pulled off this Triple-Lindy, but... the struggle is so much that the frustration of one near-miss, combined with the time it would take to start the process over again is just too much.

[nauta]

Here's the relevant docs to help the discussion:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

Re: Whitt)

From what I can gather, to become a Trading Company -- a big deal -- it is 5 IC years, not 8.  To become a shopkeeper (which is what 90% of my concepts at least want) you'd only need 2.  Maybe I'm misreading the 'at previous level' clause...

That seems reasonable.

I also don't see in the documentation listed where it says that 'contract is specific to the founder'?  If that's true, I'd agree that's asking a bit too much -- surely you'd have a second or even a third to pass the torch to if you die, right?

Nevermind, I found it. 

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Trading%20Company

Contract is specific to the founder. This means that if the PC founder dies or stores, your clan will (typically) die with that PC. Exceptions only exist in such a case that a member of this organization wishes to take it over, and this will mean re- establishment under THAT PC. This means that the PC intending to take it over must be approved by staff, then meet all previous requirements and pay all requisite taxes and license fees.

That strikes me as a bit strict...

[Desertman]

Having to stay alive for a single real life year actually seems in my opinion to be a fairly short stint to get to Trading Company. There's a decent argument that it's almost too short.

This is not an easy feat certainly, but I feel a single RL year is a pretty short duration to prove that you can stay alive and that you deserve the investment into your PC you are going to get.

Not a lot of people can do that and it doesn't happen often, but then again, getting your own compound and band of NPC's to your name shouldn't be something that people CAN do often. It should be rare.

[Desertman]

I also don't mind the contract being specific to the founder until you can establish a line of succession, be that through bloodlines or the creation of documentation/processes to ensure said "passing of rule".

If someone is around who's willing to take it over and the right things have been put into place to ensure it is feasibly possible and it makes sense then staff will work to see it done.

[BadSkeelz]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Having such a strict condition encourages potential founders of the MMH to think of their clan as an organization, and not just a vanity label for their own individual PC. Set up lines of succession, recruit, nurture, build something that other players will want to see continued and will want to help continue.

[Desertman]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Having such a strict condition encourages potential founders of the MMH to think of their clan as an organization, and not just a vanity label for their own individual PC. Set up lines of succession, recruit, nurture, build something that other players will want to see continued and will want to help continue.

Yessir. This.

[valeria]

The shop thing does seem like it could use a little tweaking. I don't mind that it has to be full of your clan crafts/mastercrafts, but I absolutely agree that your MMH should be able to have it as clan-specific recipes at that point.

[Desertman]

One thing I think needs to be more strictly outlined is the relation these organizations have to the universal game world as a whole.

In reality you are a small crew of a handful of unaffiliated people who have no real influence on the world in any way. You are a spec of sand in the desert to the major organizations and major powers in the world. I would argue this would remain the case AT LEAST up until you are a Trade Company, and even then, it may remain the case entirely until you attain full MMH status.

However, you are also extremely interesting, new, exciting, and fun to fiddle with for both outside PC's and staff.

I get it. It's a game. Shiny new fun and interesting things are fun to fiddle with, however, I do feel like "the fiddling" can get taken a bit too far in the name of OOC fun and OOC interest when IC'ly such interest wouldn't be a thing.

At the very least, if it is decided your small independent group IS influential and powerful enough to say....attract the attention of a Red Robed Templar, the outcome should not always be negative.

If you are seemingly so high up the social chain that someone like this will take an interest in you, why is it always a negative interest? Why wouldn't this individual, at least some of the time, work in your favor since you are obviously powerful enough in your own right for them to take notice of you? Why are they so predisposed to set themselves up as someone to harm you instead of help you (in their own self interest of course)?

In reality, these are the sorts of people who shouldn't take any notice of you at all in my opinion. It seems like all too often it is done for the entertainment value and not for IC reasons. At the very least, it seems like someone much more realistically "ranked" would be utilized to take notice of you instead of what basically amounts to a God avatar.

The same goes for major Houses and other organizations and their governing NPC's. It seems like anytime one of them is animated they are animated entirely and exclusively in the negative to provide untouchable opposition. Untouchable being the key factor.

Getting opposition from other PC's can be fun.

Getting opposition repeatedly from multiple untouchable NPC's from multiple organizations, either directly or via proxy by instructing their PC underlings to oppose you is not fun. It creates the illusion (or perhaps the reality) of your group playing against staff. It creates a situation where eventually you just give up mentally because you know you can't win.

Yes, you need to face opposition, but I think guidelines should be put into place so that said opposition is actually meaningful opposition, and not just untouchable opposition. One creates actual opposition that you can at least attempt to oppose if you choose to. The option is there. The other creates a situation where you can either give up, give in, or stop caring because you can't even attempt to challenge said opposition.

By all means, oppose me. Throw hurdles in my path for me to try and jump over and possibly trip and land on my face. Don't put Mount Everest in front of me repeatedly and say, "Climb it, I dare you.". That' not fun.

tldr; We need more strict guidelines put into place for people, most especially staff, to follow when it comes to creating meaningful and entertaining world opposition for these sorts of groups. You want to create a fun experience, not a endless practice in realizing hopelessness and defeat for the players involved.

[Desertman]

The shop thing does seem like it could use a little tweaking. I don't mind that it has to be full of your clan crafts/mastercrafts, but I absolutely agree that your MMH should be able to have it as clan-specific recipes at that point.

I agree. It's not a one or the other thing. I would take either. Either let me put on things that aren't just my mastercrafts, or at least let me claim my mastercrafts as mine at a coded level so my shopkeeper isn't just a recipe vendor for every crafter in the game to undercut me.

[BadSkeelz]

I think you over-estimate how much of that opposition's coming solely from (staff-animated) NPCs, Desertman. A lot of the opposition I've seen to MMH in the game has been player-based and complaining to our (staff-animated) superiors. Generally because MMH appear irritating as fuck.

[whitt]

From what I can gather, to become a Trading Company -- a big deal -- it is 5 IC years, not 8.  To become a shopkeeper (which is what 90% of my concepts at least want) you'd only need 2.  Maybe I'm misreading the 'at previous level' clause...

It's"
  1 year as a Registered Merchant to unlock
+ 2 years as a Warehouse Lease Holder to unlock
+ 5 years as a Shopkeeper
= 8 years (minimum) to reach Trading Company

To do this in the minimum amount of time a few things have to fall in line:
1) The founder can not die.
2) A warehouse has to be available to move from Merchant to Warehouse Holder.  This is a (understandably) limited resource.  You may find yourself waiting IC-years of being eligible for a warehouse, before you can actually get one.
3) The staff/PCs/etc... you are working with also have to stick around for the full RL year or you are likely to lose traction and even a few weeks, more likely a month between unlocks stretches this from 12 RL months to more like a year and a half.

Also, don't forget, you need to have a competent character before this process begins and you're almost certainly looking at 18 months.

Definitely a reward worthy achievement, but I doubt the attainability.

[Desertman]

I think you over-estimate how much of that opposition's coming solely from (staff-animated) NPCs, Desertman. A lot of the opposition I've seen to MMH in the game has been player-based and complaining to our (staff-animated) superiors. Generally because MMH appear irritating as fuck.

I've seen a lot of this too, and I don't mind it at all. If I am referencing it, it has been confirmed first hand I assure you.

[whitt]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Wouldn't the stipulation be more likely to cause this then to mitigate it?  I stay in my fortress of solitude.  Only meet in my locked saferoom, I send drones out to do my bidding.  It doesn't matter how many of them bite the dust.  Only the Queen Bee needs to survive.

[Desertman]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Wouldn't the stipulation be more likely to cause this then to mitigate it?  I stay in my fortress of solitude.  Only meet in my locked saferoom, I send drones out to do my bidding.  It doesn't matter how many of them bite the dust.  Only the Queen Bee needs to survive.

It's almost impossible to pull this off, mainly because the player in question would have an extremely hard time attracting anyone to their cause if they played in this manner.

However I will say this. IF they can manage to pull in an entire crew of underlings that stay bolstered to do their bidding while playing in this manner and do so effectively enough to fund their operation entirely through this sort of proxy arrangement.....they aren't doing anything bad, they are actually doing something very right.

I do believe this would be the extreme exception though mainly because people just don't like to play this way. It's boring.

[manipura]

From what I can gather, to become a Trading Company -- a big deal -- it is 5 IC years, not 8.  To become a shopkeeper (which is what 90% of my concepts at least want) you'd only need 2.  Maybe I'm misreading the 'at previous level' clause...

You have to be a registered merchant for at least one year to be eligible for a warehouse.
You have to hold a warehouse lease for two years to be able to apply for shopkeeper status.
You have to maintain shopkeeper status for five years before you can consider Trading Company.
That's eight years.
[edit: Hmm.  I see whitt jumped in before me with his own math...]

In addition to that, you are taxed different amounts at each level.  This isn't the licensing fees, this is taxes.
As a registered merchant it's generally some low amount determined by the Templar you're getting your token from.  To give it a number, let's just say 500, because that's half of the next level's taxes.
As a warehouse holder, you're taxed 1000 coins per year.  By the end of that two year stint, it's 2000 coins paid in taxes.
As a shopkeeper, it's 2000 coins a year.  You are a shopkeeper for five years.  That's 10000 in taxes by the time your time as shopkeeper is over.

By the time you're even able to consider being a Trade Company, you've paid 12500 just in taxes alone.  
However...to consider being a Trade Company, you have to have paid at least 50000 in taxes up until this point.  
Somewhere in all this, you have to be coming up with another 37500 minimum in extra 'taxes', to even consider hoping to achieve Trade Company.
That's not even including pay to your shopkeeper level NPCs, or licensing fees along the way or the yearly rental fees for your warehouse, that's just taxes.

[Desertman]

Somewhere in all this, you have to be coming up with another 37500 minimum in extra 'taxes', to even consider hoping to achieve Trade Company.

I believe the above gap exists to promote the practice of "greasing palms" amongst the templarate and pushing your agenda with said individuals.

A sort of silent incentive to get mixed up in things at a political level with the people you really SHOULD be trying to get on your side.

You need to fill in that "gap" somehow, you might as well do it through roleplaying and creating potential allies (and possibly other enemies) by paying the right (and maybe wrong) people along the way.

I personally like that aspect of it. I think that was very smart.

Staff didn't just "miss" that math. That was intentional. They outlined a process to "train you" to have to interact with these people on some level regularly to pay your mandatory taxes. They then put in a "gap amount" where you more or less get to decide what purposes you are going to push those funds towards with your new "Templar friends/enemies".

[BadSkeelz]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Wouldn't the stipulation be more likely to cause this then to mitigate it?  I stay in my fortress of solitude.  Only meet in my locked saferoom, I send drones out to do my bidding.  It doesn't matter how many of them bite the dust.  Only the Queen Bee needs to survive.

Sure, you could set-up House Gobbler by camping your apartment. But under current rules, as soon as someone breaks in and murders you, House Gobbler is no more.

My point was that if the contracts extended in perpetuity, or could easily be handed off, we'd have a bunch of defunct shops and NPCs belonging to single-PC "houses" that rose and fell without ever engaging with the game at large.

Staff don't want to spend time and resources catering to whims of individual players running their own little self-contained storylines. They want people to interact. Having to make political connections, recruit employees, figure out succession rules - this all encourages interaction.

[manipura]

Right.  Mostly I'm just pointing out that to just break even on the required taxes, rental fees, employee pay etc, you're needing to be a commoner making an obscene amount of money.
You're needing to do it without drawing too much negative attention from the larger global organizations in the Known that have monopolies in armor, weaponry, clothes, jewelry, furniture etc.  If you do draw attention from these people, you can expect to be having to make even more coins just to break even, because you're likely having to pay off these people to be allowed to make half the craftable things you're capable of making money off of.

So yes, it encourages you having to get out there and interact with the right people and all that (which is a good thing! ) but I'm just pointing to the part that basically says "You're still just a nobody commoner in a gritty desert world, but now go ahead and make more coins than some nobles have."

Edit: And with all that money, you're actually needing to make even more because when you deposit anything into your account with Nenyuk, you're taxed there too.  Which doesn't always seem like much, but when you're at the level of making the sort of money required for the expenses at higher levels in this process, you aren't just depositing a couple hundred coins at a time.

[Desertman]

Right.  Mostly I'm just pointing out that to just break even on the required taxes, rental fees, employee pay etc, you're needing to be a commoner making an obscene amount of money.
You're needing to do it without drawing too much negative attention from the larger global organizations in the Known that have monopolies in armor, weaponry, clothes, jewelry, furniture etc.  If you do draw attention from these people, you can expect to be having to make even more coins just to break even, because you're likely having to pay off these people to be allowed to make half the craftable things you're capable of making money off of.

So yes, it encourages you having to get out there and interact with the right people and all that (which is a good thing! ) but I'm just pointing to the part that basically says "You're still just a nobody commoner in a gritty desert world, but now go ahead and make more coins than some nobles have."

I think as an individual making this much money could be daunting. However, you should be an individual directing a crew/a few employees all working together to make this much money.

So yes, making this amount of money all by yourself can be daunting and arguably even silly.

But when you have three, four, five people working with you, you aren't making that money alone. A few people COMBINED are making that money.

It completely changes the dynamic of "How much money that is.", because people have to get paid and everyone wants their fair share, or they won't continue to take part typically.

So yes, while the "Leader" might appear to be "Making obscence amounts of money.", they aren't. THEIR GROUP as a whole is. Take the amount they are making and go ahead and start dividing it up by their number of employees/number of employees over the years and suddenly, it's not that much per person that is being contributed.

[whitt]

My point was that if the contracts extended in perpetuity, or could easily be handed off, we'd have a bunch of defunct shops and NPCs belonging to single-PC "houses" that rose and fell without ever engaging with the game at large.

Understood.  My point is that with the current system, we have a bunch of defunct warehouses belonging to single-PC corpses, because the rules as written do not allow for succession in most cases except via bloodline.  The current system has resulted in (unless I am missing one) -zero- Trading Companies. Plenty of dead founders.

Want a blood relative to pass on the House?  That requires an even longer IC commitment of time to play out raising a child from birth to playable age (Min 13 IC years) or setting up a Family Rolecall with the intent of creating an MMH from the get-go.

Again, I'll be standing up to applaud the first player(s) to get to Trading Company, the timeline given Arm's lifecycle makes that seem unlikely.  Heck, I'll even go on the record as still being in the process of sorting out Character concepts to try and work through this process.  I don't know that I'd want to spend a year and a half trying, get offed, and jump right back on again.

[manipura]

Right.  Mostly I'm just pointing out that to just break even on the required taxes, rental fees, employee pay etc, you're needing to be a commoner making an obscene amount of money.
You're needing to do it without drawing too much negative attention from the larger global organizations in the Known that have monopolies in armor, weaponry, clothes, jewelry, furniture etc.  If you do draw attention from these people, you can expect to be having to make even more coins just to break even, because you're likely having to pay off these people to be allowed to make half the craftable things you're capable of making money off of.

So yes, it encourages you having to get out there and interact with the right people and all that (which is a good thing! ) but I'm just pointing to the part that basically says "You're still just a nobody commoner in a gritty desert world, but now go ahead and make more coins than some nobles have."

I think as an individual making this much money could be daunting. However, you should be an individual directing a crew/a few employees all working together to make this much money.

So yes, making this amount of money all by yourself can be daunting and arguably even silly.

But when you have three, four, five people working with you, you aren't making that money alone. A few people COMBINED are making that money.

It completely changes the dynamic of "How much money that is.", because people have to get paid and everyone wants their fair share, or they won't continue to take part typically.

So yes, while the "Leader" might appear to be "Making obsence amounts of money.", they aren't. THEIR GROUP as a whole is. Take the amount they are making and go ahead and start dividing it up by their number of employees/number of employees over the years and suddenly, it's not that much per person that is being contributed.

Ideally that's how it goes.  It requires those four or five people to all be able to stay alive for three, four, six, eight game years too.  And at that level I don't think there's a 'group' bank account, so in the later years of the process you really need everyone staying alive because with someone's death you might very likely see a substantial amount of coins you've been earning for the cause ending up donated to the good folks at Nenyuk instead.

[wizturbo]

I agree. It's not a one or the other thing. I would take either. Either let me put on things that aren't just my mastercrafts, or at least let me claim my mastercrafts as mine at a coded level so my shopkeeper isn't just a recipe vendor for every crafter in the game to undercut me.

I like that anyone with the crafting skill needed can steal your recipe and undercut your prices.  That's Zalanthas for you, unless you're a Greater Merchant House with special tools and trade secrets that would make replication nearly impossible.

It does seem silly that you can't put whatever you want on that shop though.  What if you want to play a trader, rather than a crafter?  You can't go get logs and put them up for sale in your own shop?  Or rugs from the north?  That seems kinda lame, I didn't realize it was set up that way.

[Desertman]

I agree. It's not a one or the other thing. I would take either. Either let me put on things that aren't just my mastercrafts, or at least let me claim my mastercrafts as mine at a coded level so my shopkeeper isn't just a recipe vendor for every crafter in the game to undercut me.

I like that anyone with the crafting skill needed can steal your recipe and undercut your prices.  That's Zalanthas for you, unless you're a Greater Merchant House with special tools and trade secrets that would make replication nearly impossible.

Which would make sense if this were universally true for all House Clan items, but it isn't.

You can't craft any of their things unless you are in said House, from the most elaborate super-sekrit-special-items-with-special-tools-and-techniques to the most basic pair of standard leather shoes.

It is an OOC construct designed for playability purposes as they relate to, "You have to go to Salarr to get it, and this makes people interact with Salarr.".

You can try and explain it IC'ly right up until you get into that weird Twilight Zone situation of, "I can't make a simple bone dagger with no ornamentation because it is coded for Salarr...there is no IC reason.".

[Armaddict]

You can call that zalanthan, but that means you can't gripe when they send their workers to kill you for duplicating their wares.  Because that is also Zalanthan.