Player Created Clans/Groups/Staff Support Etc...

[Desertman]

Per Seidhr, moving this into its own thread. While my response below is regarding a question about the MMH system, feel free to drag anything else into this thread regarding player created groups/clans/content/staff support in this regard, since the conversation/derail we were on was really about that as a whole.

Honestly, I think the MMH system is fine. It's sufficiently difficult to rise to the levels of the Atrium, as it should be. When I threw my hat in the ring, the issue was simply finding the players to get started. On the other hand, I think I killed the best one for the job.

Regardless, I'd like to hear what you consider the flaws.

There are many issues and I will certainly outline several of them at some point.

In terms of difficulty, I agree, the system as it sits and as it is outlined is actually very adequately structured in terms of difficulty. It is surprisingly well done in this regard. The amount of money and time outlined for fees etc is very well done. If nothing else, this one thing alone is the thing that doesn't need to be touched.

One glaring issue to consider is that Shopkeeper Status, is for better or worse, not really any better than basic Warehouse Holder status but costs quite a bit more. It comes with a tiny little bit of prestige that quickly loses its luster when you realize at a mechanical level you have gained basically nothing and it has cost you a lot more.

In order to actually utilize your ability to own a Shop you have to be a mastercrafter. If you aren't a mastercrafter, you don't get to own a shop. It is highly recommended by myself that we open up the ability to put items on your Shop NPC that aren't your own mastercrafts. The list would be approved by staff and would be 8 - 10 items that both staff and the player involved agree fit the theme of the group. Raw materials, for example, or basic crafting recipes that aren't mastercrafts could be a possibility.

Moving on from that.

Even if you ARE a mastercrafter, the items you put on your NPC shop attendant will not be specific to your "group" at a coded level because you aren't codedly a group. Every single mastercraft you potentially put on that Shopkeeper WILL be craftable by every other PC in the Known World with a crafting skill that fits the bill.

It makes the idea of putting your mastercrafts on an NPC very unappealing. The fundamental difference sits directly in your ability to dictate your distribution agreements on your goods and track how they are distributed, to who, and when. I can tell you from experience this is a very important thing.

If you sell on your NPC shopkeeper, every crafter in the game can get their hands on your crafts with immunity and then recreate them to resell them around the world.

If you sell to a PC directly you can let them know, "This is "Insert Group's" design, you are not allowed to recreate this without someone coming after you. Before I sell this to you, I need you to agree to these terms.".

Some people might still do it. Most won't. Eventually your designs will get out but YOU will know who you have sold to and you can more readily track down at that point who is recreating your goods and act accordingly.

Basically, you are better off not owning a shop as a shopkeeper in the current incarnation of the system in just about every way, so owning said shop is pretty pointless.

Being a Shopkeeper for now in reality means your BEST outcome is getting an NPC guard who will not actually defend you or attack on your behalf in any way because you aren't a coded clan. The NPC guards can't be coded to be "on your side". It's the same reason crafts can't be coded to be made by your group specifically.

Shopkeeper in reality is just sort of the "long wait" with very little actual payoff between Warehouse Holder and Trade Company.

My recommendation in this regard would be to grant BASIC clan status to Shopkeeper level groups.

They would have one coded leader and one coded leader only.
That coded leader would have the ability to Recruit and Dump PC's only, and there would be only one coded rank below "Leader". They wouldn't get clan bank accounts, they wouldn't get any other clan perks. The only reason they are even coded as a clan is for the below.

This would allow your NPCs to actually do something/be worth something more often. They can be coded to "be on your side", instead of just act as decoration. (They would not be allowed to follow you around/carry things/act as a mobile guard etc. Their commands would be very limited.)

Most importantly this would allow you to designate your mastercrafts to your group to make the idea of actually using an NPC shopkeeper for your group much more appealing. You could put your mastercrafts on your NPC vendor and they would serve as more than just a list of recipes you are giving out to the playerbase out of the kindness of your heart, which is what it is now.

(To any staff who worked on this, I'm not bashing your system. For coming up with something that never had anyone actually USE it and at such a complex level this system is amazingly well done. It is by far one of the most interesting and fun things in the game in my opinion. You did great. However, since it has got some test-time, I think some negative feedback where applicable will be constructive and might be useful.)

[whitt]

Honestly, I think the MMH system is fine. It's sufficiently difficult to rise to the levels of the Atrium, as it should be. When I threw my hat in the ring, the issue was simply finding the players to get started. On the other hand, I think I killed the best one for the job.

Regardless, I'd like to hear what you consider the flaws.

For me?  The biggest one is that one character dies and the whole MMH is shut down.

Contract is specific to the founder. This means that if the PC founder dies or stores, your clan will (typically) die with that PC.

Trying to keep a PC alive for a RL year is hard, especially without latching onto an NPC organization that can protect you.  Trying to keep an independent alive just through the getting to competent stage is a struggle.  Trying to keep one specific PC with a giant bullseye on their chest alive for the 8 IC years needed just to become a Trading House?  If Everything goes right.  Oofta.  How many independent characters have been around that long?

Add into this that once you start to rise, there's finally a target for the GMHs, the thieves, the assassins, and the schemers to jump on that isn't big enough to outright squash them for trying and I'll vote the task is insurmountable.  Because of the founder-PC clause.  From an MCB slant?  You can't even backstab your boss while they reach for the brass ring an prise it from their still warm fingers.  Because then you have to survive 8 more IC years.

I get the potential for a true sense of accomplishment if someone pulled off this Triple-Lindy, but... the struggle is so much that the frustration of one near-miss, combined with the time it would take to start the process over again is just too much.

[nauta]

Here's the relevant docs to help the discussion:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

Re: Whitt)

From what I can gather, to become a Trading Company -- a big deal -- it is 5 IC years, not 8.  To become a shopkeeper (which is what 90% of my concepts at least want) you'd only need 2.  Maybe I'm misreading the 'at previous level' clause...

That seems reasonable.

I also don't see in the documentation listed where it says that 'contract is specific to the founder'?  If that's true, I'd agree that's asking a bit too much -- surely you'd have a second or even a third to pass the torch to if you die, right?

Nevermind, I found it. 

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Trading%20Company

Contract is specific to the founder. This means that if the PC founder dies or stores, your clan will (typically) die with that PC. Exceptions only exist in such a case that a member of this organization wishes to take it over, and this will mean re- establishment under THAT PC. This means that the PC intending to take it over must be approved by staff, then meet all previous requirements and pay all requisite taxes and license fees.

That strikes me as a bit strict...

[Desertman]

Having to stay alive for a single real life year actually seems in my opinion to be a fairly short stint to get to Trading Company. There's a decent argument that it's almost too short.

This is not an easy feat certainly, but I feel a single RL year is a pretty short duration to prove that you can stay alive and that you deserve the investment into your PC you are going to get.

Not a lot of people can do that and it doesn't happen often, but then again, getting your own compound and band of NPC's to your name shouldn't be something that people CAN do often. It should be rare.

[Desertman]

I also don't mind the contract being specific to the founder until you can establish a line of succession, be that through bloodlines or the creation of documentation/processes to ensure said "passing of rule".

If someone is around who's willing to take it over and the right things have been put into place to ensure it is feasibly possible and it makes sense then staff will work to see it done.

[BadSkeelz]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Having such a strict condition encourages potential founders of the MMH to think of their clan as an organization, and not just a vanity label for their own individual PC. Set up lines of succession, recruit, nurture, build something that other players will want to see continued and will want to help continue.

[Desertman]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Having such a strict condition encourages potential founders of the MMH to think of their clan as an organization, and not just a vanity label for their own individual PC. Set up lines of succession, recruit, nurture, build something that other players will want to see continued and will want to help continue.

Yessir. This.

[valeria]

The shop thing does seem like it could use a little tweaking. I don't mind that it has to be full of your clan crafts/mastercrafts, but I absolutely agree that your MMH should be able to have it as clan-specific recipes at that point.

[Desertman]

One thing I think needs to be more strictly outlined is the relation these organizations have to the universal game world as a whole.

In reality you are a small crew of a handful of unaffiliated people who have no real influence on the world in any way. You are a spec of sand in the desert to the major organizations and major powers in the world. I would argue this would remain the case AT LEAST up until you are a Trade Company, and even then, it may remain the case entirely until you attain full MMH status.

However, you are also extremely interesting, new, exciting, and fun to fiddle with for both outside PC's and staff.

I get it. It's a game. Shiny new fun and interesting things are fun to fiddle with, however, I do feel like "the fiddling" can get taken a bit too far in the name of OOC fun and OOC interest when IC'ly such interest wouldn't be a thing.

At the very least, if it is decided your small independent group IS influential and powerful enough to say....attract the attention of a Red Robed Templar, the outcome should not always be negative.

If you are seemingly so high up the social chain that someone like this will take an interest in you, why is it always a negative interest? Why wouldn't this individual, at least some of the time, work in your favor since you are obviously powerful enough in your own right for them to take notice of you? Why are they so predisposed to set themselves up as someone to harm you instead of help you (in their own self interest of course)?

In reality, these are the sorts of people who shouldn't take any notice of you at all in my opinion. It seems like all too often it is done for the entertainment value and not for IC reasons. At the very least, it seems like someone much more realistically "ranked" would be utilized to take notice of you instead of what basically amounts to a God avatar.

The same goes for major Houses and other organizations and their governing NPC's. It seems like anytime one of them is animated they are animated entirely and exclusively in the negative to provide untouchable opposition. Untouchable being the key factor.

Getting opposition from other PC's can be fun.

Getting opposition repeatedly from multiple untouchable NPC's from multiple organizations, either directly or via proxy by instructing their PC underlings to oppose you is not fun. It creates the illusion (or perhaps the reality) of your group playing against staff. It creates a situation where eventually you just give up mentally because you know you can't win.

Yes, you need to face opposition, but I think guidelines should be put into place so that said opposition is actually meaningful opposition, and not just untouchable opposition. One creates actual opposition that you can at least attempt to oppose if you choose to. The option is there. The other creates a situation where you can either give up, give in, or stop caring because you can't even attempt to challenge said opposition.

By all means, oppose me. Throw hurdles in my path for me to try and jump over and possibly trip and land on my face. Don't put Mount Everest in front of me repeatedly and say, "Climb it, I dare you.". That' not fun.

tldr; We need more strict guidelines put into place for people, most especially staff, to follow when it comes to creating meaningful and entertaining world opposition for these sorts of groups. You want to create a fun experience, not a endless practice in realizing hopelessness and defeat for the players involved.

[Desertman]

The shop thing does seem like it could use a little tweaking. I don't mind that it has to be full of your clan crafts/mastercrafts, but I absolutely agree that your MMH should be able to have it as clan-specific recipes at that point.

I agree. It's not a one or the other thing. I would take either. Either let me put on things that aren't just my mastercrafts, or at least let me claim my mastercrafts as mine at a coded level so my shopkeeper isn't just a recipe vendor for every crafter in the game to undercut me.

[BadSkeelz]

I think you over-estimate how much of that opposition's coming solely from (staff-animated) NPCs, Desertman. A lot of the opposition I've seen to MMH in the game has been player-based and complaining to our (staff-animated) superiors. Generally because MMH appear irritating as fuck.

[whitt]

From what I can gather, to become a Trading Company -- a big deal -- it is 5 IC years, not 8.  To become a shopkeeper (which is what 90% of my concepts at least want) you'd only need 2.  Maybe I'm misreading the 'at previous level' clause...

It's"
  1 year as a Registered Merchant to unlock
+ 2 years as a Warehouse Lease Holder to unlock
+ 5 years as a Shopkeeper
= 8 years (minimum) to reach Trading Company

To do this in the minimum amount of time a few things have to fall in line:
1) The founder can not die.
2) A warehouse has to be available to move from Merchant to Warehouse Holder.  This is a (understandably) limited resource.  You may find yourself waiting IC-years of being eligible for a warehouse, before you can actually get one.
3) The staff/PCs/etc... you are working with also have to stick around for the full RL year or you are likely to lose traction and even a few weeks, more likely a month between unlocks stretches this from 12 RL months to more like a year and a half.

Also, don't forget, you need to have a competent character before this process begins and you're almost certainly looking at 18 months.

Definitely a reward worthy achievement, but I doubt the attainability.

[Desertman]

I think you over-estimate how much of that opposition's coming solely from (staff-animated) NPCs, Desertman. A lot of the opposition I've seen to MMH in the game has been player-based and complaining to our (staff-animated) superiors. Generally because MMH appear irritating as fuck.

I've seen a lot of this too, and I don't mind it at all. If I am referencing it, it has been confirmed first hand I assure you.

[whitt]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Wouldn't the stipulation be more likely to cause this then to mitigate it?  I stay in my fortress of solitude.  Only meet in my locked saferoom, I send drones out to do my bidding.  It doesn't matter how many of them bite the dust.  Only the Queen Bee needs to survive.

[Desertman]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Wouldn't the stipulation be more likely to cause this then to mitigate it?  I stay in my fortress of solitude.  Only meet in my locked saferoom, I send drones out to do my bidding.  It doesn't matter how many of them bite the dust.  Only the Queen Bee needs to survive.

It's almost impossible to pull this off, mainly because the player in question would have an extremely hard time attracting anyone to their cause if they played in this manner.

However I will say this. IF they can manage to pull in an entire crew of underlings that stay bolstered to do their bidding while playing in this manner and do so effectively enough to fund their operation entirely through this sort of proxy arrangement.....they aren't doing anything bad, they are actually doing something very right.

I do believe this would be the extreme exception though mainly because people just don't like to play this way. It's boring.

[manipura]

From what I can gather, to become a Trading Company -- a big deal -- it is 5 IC years, not 8.  To become a shopkeeper (which is what 90% of my concepts at least want) you'd only need 2.  Maybe I'm misreading the 'at previous level' clause...

You have to be a registered merchant for at least one year to be eligible for a warehouse.
You have to hold a warehouse lease for two years to be able to apply for shopkeeper status.
You have to maintain shopkeeper status for five years before you can consider Trading Company.
That's eight years.
[edit: Hmm.  I see whitt jumped in before me with his own math...]

In addition to that, you are taxed different amounts at each level.  This isn't the licensing fees, this is taxes.
As a registered merchant it's generally some low amount determined by the Templar you're getting your token from.  To give it a number, let's just say 500, because that's half of the next level's taxes.
As a warehouse holder, you're taxed 1000 coins per year.  By the end of that two year stint, it's 2000 coins paid in taxes.
As a shopkeeper, it's 2000 coins a year.  You are a shopkeeper for five years.  That's 10000 in taxes by the time your time as shopkeeper is over.

By the time you're even able to consider being a Trade Company, you've paid 12500 just in taxes alone.  
However...to consider being a Trade Company, you have to have paid at least 50000 in taxes up until this point.  
Somewhere in all this, you have to be coming up with another 37500 minimum in extra 'taxes', to even consider hoping to achieve Trade Company.
That's not even including pay to your shopkeeper level NPCs, or licensing fees along the way or the yearly rental fees for your warehouse, that's just taxes.

[Desertman]

Somewhere in all this, you have to be coming up with another 37500 minimum in extra 'taxes', to even consider hoping to achieve Trade Company.

I believe the above gap exists to promote the practice of "greasing palms" amongst the templarate and pushing your agenda with said individuals.

A sort of silent incentive to get mixed up in things at a political level with the people you really SHOULD be trying to get on your side.

You need to fill in that "gap" somehow, you might as well do it through roleplaying and creating potential allies (and possibly other enemies) by paying the right (and maybe wrong) people along the way.

I personally like that aspect of it. I think that was very smart.

Staff didn't just "miss" that math. That was intentional. They outlined a process to "train you" to have to interact with these people on some level regularly to pay your mandatory taxes. They then put in a "gap amount" where you more or less get to decide what purposes you are going to push those funds towards with your new "Templar friends/enemies".

[BadSkeelz]

Contracts specific to the founder are a necessary difficulty gate. Otherwise the Known would be littered with MMH that can trace their descent to a single spamcrafter who hid in their apartment for a RL year, emerging only to give coins/sexual favors to templar PCs.

Wouldn't the stipulation be more likely to cause this then to mitigate it?  I stay in my fortress of solitude.  Only meet in my locked saferoom, I send drones out to do my bidding.  It doesn't matter how many of them bite the dust.  Only the Queen Bee needs to survive.

Sure, you could set-up House Gobbler by camping your apartment. But under current rules, as soon as someone breaks in and murders you, House Gobbler is no more.

My point was that if the contracts extended in perpetuity, or could easily be handed off, we'd have a bunch of defunct shops and NPCs belonging to single-PC "houses" that rose and fell without ever engaging with the game at large.

Staff don't want to spend time and resources catering to whims of individual players running their own little self-contained storylines. They want people to interact. Having to make political connections, recruit employees, figure out succession rules - this all encourages interaction.

[manipura]

Right.  Mostly I'm just pointing out that to just break even on the required taxes, rental fees, employee pay etc, you're needing to be a commoner making an obscene amount of money.
You're needing to do it without drawing too much negative attention from the larger global organizations in the Known that have monopolies in armor, weaponry, clothes, jewelry, furniture etc.  If you do draw attention from these people, you can expect to be having to make even more coins just to break even, because you're likely having to pay off these people to be allowed to make half the craftable things you're capable of making money off of.

So yes, it encourages you having to get out there and interact with the right people and all that (which is a good thing! ) but I'm just pointing to the part that basically says "You're still just a nobody commoner in a gritty desert world, but now go ahead and make more coins than some nobles have."

Edit: And with all that money, you're actually needing to make even more because when you deposit anything into your account with Nenyuk, you're taxed there too.  Which doesn't always seem like much, but when you're at the level of making the sort of money required for the expenses at higher levels in this process, you aren't just depositing a couple hundred coins at a time.

[Desertman]

Right.  Mostly I'm just pointing out that to just break even on the required taxes, rental fees, employee pay etc, you're needing to be a commoner making an obscene amount of money.
You're needing to do it without drawing too much negative attention from the larger global organizations in the Known that have monopolies in armor, weaponry, clothes, jewelry, furniture etc.  If you do draw attention from these people, you can expect to be having to make even more coins just to break even, because you're likely having to pay off these people to be allowed to make half the craftable things you're capable of making money off of.

So yes, it encourages you having to get out there and interact with the right people and all that (which is a good thing! ) but I'm just pointing to the part that basically says "You're still just a nobody commoner in a gritty desert world, but now go ahead and make more coins than some nobles have."

I think as an individual making this much money could be daunting. However, you should be an individual directing a crew/a few employees all working together to make this much money.

So yes, making this amount of money all by yourself can be daunting and arguably even silly.

But when you have three, four, five people working with you, you aren't making that money alone. A few people COMBINED are making that money.

It completely changes the dynamic of "How much money that is.", because people have to get paid and everyone wants their fair share, or they won't continue to take part typically.

So yes, while the "Leader" might appear to be "Making obscence amounts of money.", they aren't. THEIR GROUP as a whole is. Take the amount they are making and go ahead and start dividing it up by their number of employees/number of employees over the years and suddenly, it's not that much per person that is being contributed.

[whitt]

My point was that if the contracts extended in perpetuity, or could easily be handed off, we'd have a bunch of defunct shops and NPCs belonging to single-PC "houses" that rose and fell without ever engaging with the game at large.

Understood.  My point is that with the current system, we have a bunch of defunct warehouses belonging to single-PC corpses, because the rules as written do not allow for succession in most cases except via bloodline.  The current system has resulted in (unless I am missing one) -zero- Trading Companies. Plenty of dead founders.

Want a blood relative to pass on the House?  That requires an even longer IC commitment of time to play out raising a child from birth to playable age (Min 13 IC years) or setting up a Family Rolecall with the intent of creating an MMH from the get-go.

Again, I'll be standing up to applaud the first player(s) to get to Trading Company, the timeline given Arm's lifecycle makes that seem unlikely.  Heck, I'll even go on the record as still being in the process of sorting out Character concepts to try and work through this process.  I don't know that I'd want to spend a year and a half trying, get offed, and jump right back on again.

[manipura]

Right.  Mostly I'm just pointing out that to just break even on the required taxes, rental fees, employee pay etc, you're needing to be a commoner making an obscene amount of money.
You're needing to do it without drawing too much negative attention from the larger global organizations in the Known that have monopolies in armor, weaponry, clothes, jewelry, furniture etc.  If you do draw attention from these people, you can expect to be having to make even more coins just to break even, because you're likely having to pay off these people to be allowed to make half the craftable things you're capable of making money off of.

So yes, it encourages you having to get out there and interact with the right people and all that (which is a good thing! ) but I'm just pointing to the part that basically says "You're still just a nobody commoner in a gritty desert world, but now go ahead and make more coins than some nobles have."

I think as an individual making this much money could be daunting. However, you should be an individual directing a crew/a few employees all working together to make this much money.

So yes, making this amount of money all by yourself can be daunting and arguably even silly.

But when you have three, four, five people working with you, you aren't making that money alone. A few people COMBINED are making that money.

It completely changes the dynamic of "How much money that is.", because people have to get paid and everyone wants their fair share, or they won't continue to take part typically.

So yes, while the "Leader" might appear to be "Making obsence amounts of money.", they aren't. THEIR GROUP as a whole is. Take the amount they are making and go ahead and start dividing it up by their number of employees/number of employees over the years and suddenly, it's not that much per person that is being contributed.

Ideally that's how it goes.  It requires those four or five people to all be able to stay alive for three, four, six, eight game years too.  And at that level I don't think there's a 'group' bank account, so in the later years of the process you really need everyone staying alive because with someone's death you might very likely see a substantial amount of coins you've been earning for the cause ending up donated to the good folks at Nenyuk instead.

[wizturbo]

I agree. It's not a one or the other thing. I would take either. Either let me put on things that aren't just my mastercrafts, or at least let me claim my mastercrafts as mine at a coded level so my shopkeeper isn't just a recipe vendor for every crafter in the game to undercut me.

I like that anyone with the crafting skill needed can steal your recipe and undercut your prices.  That's Zalanthas for you, unless you're a Greater Merchant House with special tools and trade secrets that would make replication nearly impossible.

It does seem silly that you can't put whatever you want on that shop though.  What if you want to play a trader, rather than a crafter?  You can't go get logs and put them up for sale in your own shop?  Or rugs from the north?  That seems kinda lame, I didn't realize it was set up that way.

[Desertman]

I agree. It's not a one or the other thing. I would take either. Either let me put on things that aren't just my mastercrafts, or at least let me claim my mastercrafts as mine at a coded level so my shopkeeper isn't just a recipe vendor for every crafter in the game to undercut me.

I like that anyone with the crafting skill needed can steal your recipe and undercut your prices.  That's Zalanthas for you, unless you're a Greater Merchant House with special tools and trade secrets that would make replication nearly impossible.

Which would make sense if this were universally true for all House Clan items, but it isn't.

You can't craft any of their things unless you are in said House, from the most elaborate super-sekrit-special-items-with-special-tools-and-techniques to the most basic pair of standard leather shoes.

It is an OOC construct designed for playability purposes as they relate to, "You have to go to Salarr to get it, and this makes people interact with Salarr.".

You can try and explain it IC'ly right up until you get into that weird Twilight Zone situation of, "I can't make a simple bone dagger with no ornamentation because it is coded for Salarr...there is no IC reason.".

[Armaddict]

You can call that zalanthan, but that means you can't gripe when they send their workers to kill you for duplicating their wares.  Because that is also Zalanthan.

[Jingo]

I havn't read this thread. But the thing I'll point out is that massive coin requirement to start a clan is a complete turn off for me. It seems geared towards the sort of player that doesn't think there is anything wrong with acquiring one thousand coins in the course of an ic day.

[Armaddict]

I havn't read this thread. But the thing I'll point out is that massive coin requirement to start a clan is a complete turn off for me. It seems geared towards the sort of player that doesn't think there is anything wrong with acquiring one thousand coins in the course of an ic day.

I don't think it gears towards that player, it gears players towards that mentality.  The breakdowns of requirements listed here are...pretty staggering.  I can see it being done, but holy shit, the measures taken to actually reach these goals are NOT likely o be reached using solely 'this is how it should be done' methods.

Disclaimer:  I've played 110 or so characters, I think.  I've only made more than 10k on a handful of them.  Making money just to make money has always been...boring, to me.  So maybe those numbers are attainable in whatever way, but to me, that just sounds like a lot of tedious things whenever you log in.

[whitt]

I havn't read this thread. But the thing I'll point out is that massive coin requirement to start a clan is a complete turn off for me. It seems geared towards the sort of player that doesn't think there is anything wrong with acquiring one thousand coins in the course of an ic day.

I'm maybe missing the massive coin requirement to start.  It's only 500 coins to get a Registered Merchant License.  Then you have a Year to come up with 2000 coins to license a warehouse.  Seems like something any casual player could do.

[boog]

Not sure if this has been mentioned because I'm currently on my phone..m but social structure, prejudices, etc, should all apply. No elf MMH should be able to attain Atrium level anything, at least not in public. In fact, I think it should be harder for them to start, since everyone proclaims money is easy to come by in game. (Not mem I've never had a character with more than 5k at a time, so y'all are just crazy people. Heh.)

[wizturbo]

The coin requirements for making a clan are easy.  In fact, coming up with the money is probably the easiest part of the entire process.

In Zalanthas, money doesn't amount to much in terms of power.  The Greater Merchant Houses have by far the largest amount of wealth in the Known World, by an enormous margin, but what exactly does that buy them?  They don't have any substantial magickal power, they don't have any substantial military power, and they have basically no direct political power themselves.  In essence, the Greater Merchant Houses are servants to the cities.  They operate in Allanak because the Templarate and the Nobility let them operate.  They make them pretty things, or they build the armor and weapons for their Legions.  They act as property managers for the real estate in the city, that the city lets them operate but could take away anytime they felt like it.

To make a successful Minor Merchant House, the only way it will work is if something inside that greater power structure supports the organization.   Look at House Terash as a case study.  How did that manage to happen?

1.  Terash was sponsored by House Borsail at all levels  (Political, Social and Economic support - check)
2.  Terash provided a service that no one else was providing, and benefited the Noble families and the Templarate  (reason to exist that people who are important care about - check)
3.  OOCly, Terash provided a service to the player base at large as a training camp for non-combat newbies.  This is probably the most important item on this list, as it's what won their founder a lot of staff support.  Obviously helping tons of new players get integrated into the game and having a good time is worth investing resources in.  (OOC reason for staff to be interested in doing a lot of work to support your idea - check)

If I wanted to create my own Minor Merchant House,  I would probably think very hard about how I could follow in Terash's footsteps...  If I actually wanted to have some prayer of a chance of seeing it actually work.

[Taven]

Current Problems

• Only mastercrafted items can be in a shop
• Shopkeeper status does not grant secret recipie status, making things reproduceable
• The shopkeeper guard NPC does not actually protect you, but is indifferent

Proposed Solutions

Grant shopkeeper level basic clan status:

• Only one coded leader
• Only clan abilities to recruit/dump
• Only coded ranks leader and underling

This would:

• Enable orderable NPCs
• Enable secret crafts

Here's what I think about the problems you have outlined:


Only Master Crafted Items for Shopkeepers

This does seem like an odd requirement to me that doesn't make sense. If you want to put items in a shop and set your price, you should be able to. Short of having your own team of Mastercrafters, it would take a good deal of time to actually get enough stuff to sell.

I think changing this to allow more could also generate more conflict. Sure, you CAN sell that doohinky cheaper then that other shop, but they may not like it. Of course if you were good enough at it, you might be able to put other shops out of business, even. I guess most of that is virtual, but it could involve the players more, depending on how it was animated. Food for thought.



No Secret Recipies at Shopkeeper Status

I don't know that this one bothers me. Isn't it incentive to make something unique and special about your crafts?

For example...

A polished, golden-finished wardrobe would seem to be made from a set of golden finish and a baobab log

If I have my golden finish, I can use it as a base for all sorts of recipies that involve wood. It gives it something unique to me, but something that others could potentially discover. I'd have to guard my recipies jealousy to make sure the wrong people didn't figure it out. It would also give incentive for others to try to infiltrate my organization and steal my secret approaches.



A Shopkeeper Guard Does Not Protect You

I don't think they're supposed to protect you. They're there for the shopkeeper. This does not bother me.

Protection should be accomplished ICly.

[Desertman]

Look at House Terash as a case study.  How did that manage to happen?

1.  Terash was sponsored by House Borsail at all levels  (Political, Social and Economic support - check)
2.  Terash provided a service that no one else was providing, and benefited the Noble families and the Templarate  (reason to exist that people who are important care about - check)
3.  OOCly, Terash provided a service to the player base at large as a training camp for non-combat newbies.  This is probably the most important item on this list, as it's what won their founder a lot of staff support.  Obviously helping tons of new players get integrated into the game and having a good time is worth investing resources in.  (OOC reason for staff to be interested in doing a lot of work to support your idea - check)

If I wanted to create my own Minor Merchant House,  I would probably think very hard about how I could follow in Terash's footsteps...  If I actually wanted to have some prayer of a chance of seeing it actually work.

Terash didn't have to actually go through this process and/or navigate the system involved in any regard in order to exist. It was also created when the game was entirely different in many regards.

While Terash arguably sits at a "similar level" to a fully "accomplished" MMH through the system, it didn't have to go through the system to achieve its status.

[Desertman]

I don't think they're supposed to protect you. They're there for the shopkeeper. This does not bother me.

Protection should be accomplished ICly.

Your guard isn't necessarily a shopkeeper guard. It can be, it doesn't have to be.

If you do all of the work in order to hire said guard IC'ly, you DID accomplish that IC'ly.

If I have my golden finish, I can use it as a base for all sorts of recipies that involve wood. It gives it something unique to me, but something that others could potentially discover. I'd have to guard my recipies jealousy to make sure the wrong people didn't figure it out. It would also give incentive for others to try to infiltrate my organization and steal my secret approaches.

This is true. The "Initial Key" mastercraft item is a workaround that has existed forever. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

However, all it will take is on burglar breaking into your area, or one pickpocket picking your pocket, and you just lost your "key item" and all of your recipes are now forfeit.

It's not a terrible idea and is a workaround I would use. I just prefer not to have to. I feel if we can IC'ly explain why other clans get "recipe immunity", even when those recipes are bland and basic it wouldn't be a huge stretch to grant the same OOC consideration to the working progress of MMH's in progress.

I don't want there to be a OOC meta-game created surrounding the system where the final goal is, "Go steal their crafting-key item.". What a wonky and completely OOC'ly driven situation that would be.

[Taven]

Terash didn't have to actually go through this process and/or navigate the system involved in any regard in order to exist. It was also created when the game was entirely different in many regards.

While Terash arguably sits at a "similar level" to a fully "accomplished" MMH through the system, it didn't have to go through the system to achieve its status.

If Terash went through the system or not is irrelevant to the points he's making.

• It got sponsorship by a Large And Powerful Organization (TM)
• It found a unique niche ICly by offering something nobody else did
• 
  
  • It provided an OOC service in filling a new niche, thus helping secure staff support
  
  The point is that all of the above are ways to help an MMH actually accomplish it's goal, by making it something tailored to their interests.

[Desertman]

Terash didn't have to actually go through this process and/or navigate the system involved in any regard in order to exist. It was also created when the game was entirely different in many regards.

While Terash arguably sits at a "similar level" to a fully "accomplished" MMH through the system, it didn't have to go through the system to achieve its status.

If Terash went through the system or not is irrelevant to the points he's making.

• It got sponsorship by a Large And Powerful Organization (TM)
• It found a unique niche ICly by offering something nobody else did
• 
  
  • It provided an OOC service in filling a new niche, thus helping secure staff support
  
  The point is that all of the above are ways to help an MMH actually accomplish it's goal, by making it something tailored to their interests.
  

More importantly it filled a "gap" that needed to be filled/someone wanted to fill on an OOC level for a specific sect of the playerbase in that part of the world.

If they were required to actually pay hundreds of thousands of coins in bribes, taxes, and license fees over the course of years and their source of income was, "Training aides.", and they actually depended on that to make said money....whew, I'm not entirely certain that would make its way through the system.

Still, you are correct, getting a good sponsor and people to back you along the way after finding a service people want to exist is of course the best way to go.

My point was that doing it "exactly" the way Terash did it might not be the best course of action for actual success via the system in place.

[Armaddict]

The coin requirements for making a clan are easy.  In fact, coming up with the money is probably the easiest part of the entire process.

In Zalanthas, money doesn't amount to much in terms of power.  The Greater Merchant Houses have by far the largest amount of wealth in the Known World, by an enormous margin, but what exactly does that buy them?  They don't have any substantial magickal power, they don't have any substantial military power, and they have basically no direct political power themselves.  In essence, the Greater Merchant Houses are servants to the cities.  They operate in Allanak because the Templarate and the Nobility let them operate.  They make them pretty things, or they build the armor and weapons for their Legions.  They act as property managers for the real estate in the city, that the city lets them operate but could take away anytime they felt like it.

To make a successful Minor Merchant House, the only way it will work is if something inside that greater power structure supports the organization.   Look at House Terash as a case study.  How did that manage to happen?

1.  Terash was sponsored by House Borsail at all levels  (Political, Social and Economic support - check)
2.  Terash provided a service that no one else was providing, and benefited the Noble families and the Templarate  (reason to exist that people who are important care about - check)
3.  OOCly, Terash provided a service to the player base at large as a training camp for non-combat newbies.  This is probably the most important item on this list, as it's what won their founder a lot of staff support.  Obviously helping tons of new players get integrated into the game and having a good time is worth investing resources in.  (OOC reason for staff to be interested in doing a lot of work to support your idea - check)

If I wanted to create my own Minor Merchant House,  I would probably think very hard about how I could follow in Terash's footsteps...  If I actually wanted to have some prayer of a chance of seeing it actually work.

...I think comparing Terash to this process is a little off, considering that was done under a completely different version of staffing that allowed for subjectivity and off-the-hip decisions.  That is not to degrade it, that's just saying that it was a completely roleplayed endeavor from start to finish, versus this being an actual documented process that hasn't been changed much from it's creation, which suggests that you think it was made perfectly on its first go and this sort of feedback is actually more akin to complaining.  But in essence, the difference between the two is that the first allowed for arbitrary 'Okay, that makes sense' or 'Sure, this should be enough' judgments versus hardset goals that are set up as milestones and barriers from advancement.  If Pearl Terash had to actually -find- enough PC aides in training to make the money for today's goals, she wouldn't make it.  Hers was run off of virtual business and political favors, thus pointedly setting it aside from the PC business platform of today.

Likewise, your statement that Major Merchant Houses have no real political power is pretty much outright wrong.  They may not have seats on senates or anything, but they very visibly affect politics with that massive amount of wealth, as is evident in many senate meetings that have been displayed, as well as junior-noble politics where they are entirely able to decide that Lord Tor over there, who treats them like shit, is cut off.  On the same scale, you acting in a Merchant House's interest is almost always a sound investment if funding is what your political character is short on.

Now, apparently making tens of thousands of coins is 'easy', and this entire process is very well leveled out.  But if that's the case, then there is obviously a blockade somewhere, because the venture fails far more often than it succeeds, and you can say that makes sense, sure.  But the day any of these other small shops in the game had to go through any of this, or currently go through any of this, is the day that I'll pretty much agree with you.  I think the MMH level should require more, and every other level far less.  These warehouses should be filled.  These little shops should be vying for their space.  There should be conflict over these limited number of licenses.  The current system is making the entire process an achievement in and of itself to go through, because the -end- of the achievements is a big one.  But the ones leading up to it are truly, in terms of the game world, very small ordeals.

This makes for very mismatched standards, in terms of the game world.  For example:

Not sure if this has been mentioned because I'm currently on my phone..m but social structure, prejudices, etc, should all apply. No elf MMH should be able to attain Atrium level anything, at least not in public. In fact, I think it should be harder for them to start, since everyone proclaims money is easy to come by in game. (Not mem I've never had a character with more than 5k at a time, so y'all are just crazy people. Heh.)

While accurate perhaps on the MMH level, is there an equivalent level in some other social structure that would allow for it?  I.e. Can elves form an eastside coalition?  Can tribal elves make for a prime 'MMH level' construct in Luir's?  What about Red Storm?  Why does this remain static across the game world, when are there examples scattered throughout the game of businesses run by less favored races, but when it comes to PC's, the standard suddenly rises not just a bar or two, but to the point that we, the playerbase, actually think these standards are in some cases -too low-?  Why is this being pigeoned into 'You must be a business of this type that does this sort of business, to earn this space'?  To insist that it is perfection in its current form and not in need of feedback is a little too much pride on the head of the creator/administrator of it, and a little bit close-minded in terms of the observer; this was supposed to be a tremendous opportunity to shuffle things up for the player base, and instead has apparently been turned into a headache for all parties involved just because of all the rule-keeping and enforcement of spotty outlines on 'how things work'.  In a sense...it's arbitrary in the -bad- way, instead of arbitrary in the way that helped Terash get to where it got.  That is my impression.

And I'm glad this was split off from the other discussion.  The other discussion, I put mostly in the hands of player mentality with the need from staff to support it (I think the player mentality as far as conflict and marks on the world is fraying at the edges).  This discussion, from my limited exposure to how these things work, I really do feel like is something that we need to address from the administrative side of it; I don't think it's fulfilling much of a purpose in the game in the current form, and thus not adding as much as it could be with just a different perspective on how it should fit in.

[Taven]

Your guard isn't necessarily a shopkeeper guard. It can be, it doesn't have to be.

If you do all of the work in order to hire said guard IC'ly, you DID accomplish that IC'ly

According to the helpfile:
      "You can also hire a guard for the shopkeeper. Cost for the guard comes out of your account on an IC yearly basis."

This is true. The "Initial Key" mastercraft item is a workaround that has existed forever. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

However, all it will take is on burglar breaking into your area, or one pickpocket picking your pocket, and you just lost your "key item" and all of your recipes are now forfeit.

So don't leave it around your apartment?

You wouldn't need to have any made up and kept around if you're not immediately using them.

It's not a terrible idea and is a workaround I would use. I just prefer not to have to. I feel if we can IC'ly explain why other clans get "recipe immunity", even when those recipes are bland and basic it wouldn't be a huge stretch to grant the same OOC consideration to the working progress of MMH's in progress.

That's a very valid concern/question, as to what makes an item unique to a particular clan or group. It's worth discussing, but it's a large enough topic that if we really want to get in to it, it could use its own thread.

I don't want there to be a OOC meta-game created surrounding the system where the final goal is, "Go steal their crafting-key item.". What a wonky and completely OOC'ly driven situation that would be.

Why is this an OOC metagame? Why isn't "discover how they make that" a valid IC reaction? If anything, the fact that it's HARDER to do it for actual clans is where the metagame OOC part is.

[Desertman]

Your guard isn't necessarily a shopkeeper guard. It can be, it doesn't have to be.

If you do all of the work in order to hire said guard IC'ly, you DID accomplish that IC'ly

According to the helpfile:
     "You can also hire a guard for the shopkeeper. Cost for the guard comes out of your account on an IC yearly basis."

This is true. The "Initial Key" mastercraft item is a workaround that has existed forever. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

However, all it will take is on burglar breaking into your area, or one pickpocket picking your pocket, and you just lost your "key item" and all of your recipes are now forfeit.

So don't leave it around your apartment?

You wouldn't need to have any made up and kept around if you're not immediately using them.

It's not a terrible idea and is a workaround I would use. I just prefer not to have to. I feel if we can IC'ly explain why other clans get "recipe immunity", even when those recipes are bland and basic it wouldn't be a huge stretch to grant the same OOC consideration to the working progress of MMH's in progress.

That's a very valid concern/question, as to what makes an item unique to a particular clan or group. It's worth discussing, but it's a large enough topic that if we really want to get in to it, it could use its own thread.

I don't want there to be a OOC meta-game created surrounding the system where the final goal is, "Go steal their crafting-key item.". What a wonky and completely OOC'ly driven situation that would be.

Why is this an OOC metagame? Why isn't "discover how they make that" a valid IC reaction? If anything, the fact that it's HARDER to do it for actual clans is where the metagame OOC part is.

The above referenced helpfile is accurate, but not totally inclusive. I'm not proposing an idea. I'm stating a fact. The guards are not limited to only that function. Find out IC is all I can say beyond that.


The reason it's an OOC metagame is because "discover how they make that" actually literally translates into "find their secret crafting key item", and that is how it will be interpreted.

It won't be heard as, "Bring me their golden box.", it will be heard as, "Find the secret crafting key item that goes into that box, I don't actually need the box, just the crafting key item. Bring me that, it's what I need on a coded level.", and that's what will happen. Saying it a different way doesn't change the fact that on an OOC level the OOC metagame is exactly the same.

[Armaddict]

A polished, golden-finished wardrobe would seem to be made from a set of golden finish and a baobab log

If I have my golden finish, I can use it as a base for all sorts of recipies that involve wood. It gives it something unique to me, but something that others could potentially discover. I'd have to guard my recipies jealousy to make sure the wrong people didn't figure it out. It would also give incentive for others to try to infiltrate my organization and steal my secret approaches.

I will agree with that as a sensible idea when it is brought about the same way as it is for any other group's, i.e. Let's see Salarr start having to guard their recipes.  Some of their stuff is not particularly hard to make, and sure, someone making them might be in some trouble, but that should still be a possibility if we use the above as the standard.

[Taven]

The above referenced helpfile is accurate, but not totally inclusive. I'm not proposing an idea. I'm stating a fact. The guards are not limited to only that function. Find out IC is all I can say beyond that.

Unless staff wants to chime in, I guess I'm just going to have to take your word for it.

The reason it's an OOC metagame is because "discover how they make that" actually literally translates into "find their secret crafting key item", and that is how it will be interpreted.

It won't be heard as, "Bring me their golden box.", it will be heard as, "Find the secret crafting key item that goes into that box, I don't actually need the box, just the crafting key item. Bring me that, it's what I need on a coded level.", and that's what will happen. Saying it a different way doesn't change the fact that on an OOC level the OOC metagame is exactly the same.

We're going to have to disagree, because I think you're wrong.

The premise here is that there IS a secret unique process to make the item. In our example, this is the golden finish. You literally cannot have a wardrobe finished to look golden without it. This is an IC reality representing the uniqueness of the process of craft. Thus, someone wanting to figure out how to make this finish so they can replicate what the original creator did is IC.

It would be similar to someone wanting to steal Kadius' secret gem-cutting methods so that they could make pieces of jewlery that are cut, instead of polished. This is IC. The OOC with Kadius is that it is harder to do because of the OOC way the clan is set up.

[Armaddict]

It would be similar to someone wanting to steal Kadius' secret gem-cutting methods so that they could make pieces of jewlery that are cut, instead of polished. This is IC. The OOC with Kadius is that it is harder to do because of the OOC way the clan is set up.

...that's not comparable at all.  These items are not some cherished secret -process-, they are items.  The same as any other item in the game.  Trying to make the analogy that because it is a mastercraft, it is now more closely related to some other thing that is not an item is a move that is only made to conveniently reinforce your argument.

These are items.  The same items that other clans make.

[Taven]

I will agree with that as a sensible idea when it is brought about the same way as it is for any other group's, i.e. Let's see Salarr start having to guard their recipes.  Some of their stuff is not particularly hard to make, and sure, someone making them might be in some trouble, but that should still be a possibility if we use the above as the standard.

Here: A thread for that

[manipura]

According to the Help file:

"You can hire a single guard NPC for your shopkeeper, or your warehouse, or both."

Of course, since your guard doesn't codedly do anything and it's known that your guard doesn't codedly do anything, there's no guarantee that having one behind your warehouse door will actually be anything more than a decoration.

[Taven]

It would be similar to someone wanting to steal Kadius' secret gem-cutting methods so that they could make pieces of jewlery that are cut, instead of polished. This is IC. The OOC with Kadius is that it is harder to do because of the OOC way the clan is set up.

...that's not comparable at all.  These items are not some cherished secret -process-, they are items.  The same as any other item in the game.  Trying to make the analogy that because it is a mastercraft, it is now more closely related to some other thing that is not an item is a move that is only made to conveniently reinforce your argument.

These are items.  The same items that other clans make.

I think you're getting offtrack on the premise.

The premise is that 'a golden-finished wardrobe' is a multiple-level craft protected by the key ingredient of 'golden finish', which is a unique item. It is specially used to treat the wood to give it the golden finish. The process of making it is secret.

Kadius' item, it's call it 'a finely-cut dimond ring' is a craft that requires 'a finely cut diamond' which is an item produced by secret Kadian diamond cutting techniques. The tools used to do this are guarded jealously, it is a Kadian secret.

The only difference between these two scenarios are that Kadius has CODED protection to their items, rather then needing to require multiple craft layers to protect what they make. That is a completely different discussion, which I have made a thread for here.

If you want to discuss or reply to this post, please post there. We're derailing this thread.

[Taven]

According to the Help file:

"You can hire a single guard NPC for your shopkeeper, or your warehouse, or both."

Of course, since your guard doesn't codedly do anything and it's known that your guard doesn't codedly do anything, there's no guarantee that having one behind your warehouse door will actually be anything more than a decoration.

You're right, it does state that lower down in the helpfile. My apologies for missing it.

Well, this could be a code issue for a warehouse. However, it would be abuse of the system to ignore a coded guard and not wish up before attempting to steal something with one present. I would assume that staff would treat such behavior accordingly.

[wizturbo]

Likewise, your statement that Major Merchant Houses have no real political power is pretty much outright wrong.  They may not have seats on senates or anything, but they very visibly affect politics with that massive amount of wealth, as is evident in many senate meetings that have been displayed, as well as junior-noble politics where they are entirely able to decide that Lord Tor over there, who treats them like shit, is cut off.  

They have influence, but no real power themselves.  They have no votes in the Senate, in fact, they aren't even allowed in the Senate meetings except on rare occasions.  They have no army large enough to take power by force, and they have no Sorcerer-King to take things by magick.   They make toys for the truly powerful, or weapons for the truly powerful's armies, or manage the coin and property of the truly powerful.

Don't get me wrong, they're WAAAAY higher up the social ladder the Joe Grebber, and aren't without their own teeth if someone fusses with them too much.  But they exist because the truly powerful let them exist, or want them to exist.

If they were required to actually pay hundreds of thousands of coins in bribes, taxes, and license fees over the course of years and their source of income was, "Training aides.", and they actually depended on that to make said money....whew, I'm not entirely certain that would make its way through the system.

You're assuming they had to pay hundreds of thousands in bribes, taxes and license fees.  They had a Senior Borsail noble backing them.  That means alot.  Having a Senior noble of any House, let alone Borsail, is quite the guard dog for your enterprise. 

Furthermore, you're assuming their business is training aides.  That's what their occupation is, but their -business-  is making Nobles and Templars happy by training their aides so they don't have to.  Or offering Nobles and Templar's a place to chat and drink tea without walking all the way back to the Noble Quarter.  That's their business.  When it comes time to pay the licensing fees, they can just ask their patron if they could help.  Borsail was their patron at one time, and could fart enough coin for Terash to pay a 50,000 coin license fee.  Hell, junior Borsail nobles probably spend more than 50,000 in their lifetime on jewelry, let alone a pet merchant house.  You don't need to spamcraft anything, if you can convince one of them to write you a figurative check.

[Jingo]

What we really need is Nenyuk to issue a copyright service that sends assassins after crafters that counterfeit your intellectual property.

[Armaddict]

They have influence, but no real power themselves.  They have no votes in the Senate, in fact, they aren't even allowed in the Senate meetings except on rare occasions.  They have no army large enough to take power by force, and they have no Sorcerer-King to take things by magick.   They make toys for the truly powerful, or weapons for the truly powerful's armies, or manage the coin and property of the truly powerful.

Ehhh...IC experiences treat me differently, over the years, playing as both nobles and ranking soldiers under templars given directions from on high.  Perhaps this influence and just how strong it is has faded due to the lack of steady appearance by people ranking above the PC glass ceiling.  Their is no objection as far as their 'power' vs their 'influence', insofar as you want to divide the two, but the two are very definitely far more intermingled to make that distinction between the two responsibly.

However, it turns into a moot point the moment that we further explore the rest of your statement, which is that a minor merchant house will not exist without the powers that be, and yet they do.  Being ousted from Allanak does not make Salarr a non-merchant house.  Kurac, being banned for years, did not cease to be a major merchant house.  The creation of a MMH does not require state sponsorship; their business in their city state does.  What makes a MMH is prosperity and longevity, both of which are covered in the requirements for its formation, but the taxes are not for the state's approval of their status as a merchant house; No other merchant house was 'created' by a city state, and so if that is the inference made by this documentation, such is something to be added to the list of things that can and should be changed.

Also...I know you've been around for a long time, so I'm pretty sure you know that Major Merchant Houses did indeed employ actual military wings, not their hunters, for a very long time.  This was something removed later, and I don't recall if it was 'made virtual' or retconned entirely.  But military prowess was actually a concern for all three of them.  Kurac, obviously, maintains it to this day.  The big deal with why they were smaller was that they were made to protect assets, rather than take them (though there were actual merchant wars over things, back in the day); That's all that's needed, because either city state declaring war on any of them was deemed as a tremendous waste of time at best, and a surefire way to fuck themselves as the norm.

What we really need is Nenyuk to issue a copyright service that sends assassins after crafters that counterfeit your intellectual property.

That's kinda where I was going with it.  If it's too difficult to plan on the same protections for smaller groups, via a code barrier that is strange for existing...then just open it up for clans to have to enforce these kinds of things their own way, the same way a MMH is expected to.

[Norcal]

It does seem the requirements for getting to MMH level are onerous, yet doable.  Remember it is not just one person making coin, but supposedly an organization.

So thinking that it will cost at least 50,000 coin does not seem unrealistic, if you have a number of people working towards the goal and do it as an organization.

The whole shopkeeper thing I find to be poorly done.  If master crafts must be used, then allow the crafter to have a locked patent on them at least until the MMH no longer exists.  Then they could become available for crafting by all. And limiting items on an NPC shopkeeper to master crafts seems to be unrealistic.

[Inks]

Make sure to categorise all your employees by coded guild, too. You could call them all "guards" "makers" and "getters". You're the man now dog.

Or maybe soldier medic and sniper would be better.

Reposting my glib sense of humor here so it makes sense. Imagine trying to start a clan that you couldn't spam items to create enough wealth for the fees, such as a cult or a coded bandit company. Are these things possible in game now? Signs point to no. I am not criticizing the changes imms have made in the last two years, I love the state of the game, in fact. I just wish there was a way to have a clan/boards that didn't involve being in a MMH OR relentless twinking/OOC.

So I do agree it should be more accessible with time and effort, so that the work you have to do to keep up with it doesn't set a bad example for new players.

I did play in a MMH for a time, and did reasonably enjoy it.

[Desertman]

We're going to have to disagree, because I think you're wrong.

That works.

[Desertman]

They had a Senior Borsail noble backing them.

This is a fair assessment. Still, if a group can get a Senior Noble of any House to fund their operation now it equates to, "Staff gifted it to them.". Anything is easy when staff gifts it to you.

My only point was that you would have a very difficult time doing it the -same- way now as they did then.

That point remains.

The only reason I'm making that distinction is this is a conversation about, "The process involved with becoming a MMH.". Their process was entirely different, so I don't feel it is comparable and possibly not applicable entirely to the situation.  *

*Though some things they did would still translate well.

[Inks]

Another thing I am curious about, are players allowed to lead the clan they created after their death? This would create a sort of "save room" for that player, compared to current coded clans which take a long time to rise to a leadership position. I have always thought about that since mmh began and I couldnt find anything in the docs. I do think the current staff are excellent for supporting plots to be honest, these last two years have been the best ever for arm, for my personal experience.

[Inks]

I agree that generic items should be able to be sold in a shop at the mmh set price, and that they should be able to patent their own mastercrafts.

[Desertman]

Another thing I am curious about, are players allowed to lead the clan they created after their death? This would create a sort of "save room" for that player, compared to current coded clans which take a long time to rise to a leadership position. I have always thought about that since mmh began and I couldnt find anything in the docs. I do think the current staff are excellent for supporting plots to be honest, these last two years have been the best ever for arm, for my personal experience.

No. You are not allowed to come back and lead the groups that you previously created. (At least not for a very long time.)

[Inks]

Ah good to know.

[Inks]

Was always assuming that was staff policy but worth asking. I am glad.

[Desertman]

One issue I know is a concern is the concept that groups working to create MMH's, even when they are still in their fledgling stages are pressured to, "Focus on one thing.".

The problem with this is that there isn't "one thing", in the world that will afford a budding organization enough profit in order to actually be successful.

Why is there a pressure to try and force your organization to focus on a single type of craft, product, or service? Well, quiet simply, because all of the already established major Houses and organizations, for the most part, follow this recipe.

House Salarr - Weapons and Armor.
Kadius - Luxury Goods.
Kurac - Spice (with a side-business of desert clothing etc.)

MMH Aldebaar - Pottery.
MMH Laramir - Interior decorators.
MMH Rauch - Low-value Ale.

So on and so forth.

Basically, the reason fledgling MMH's are pressured to focus on a "single thing" is because all of the established Houses in place follow this premade script.

In my opinion this isn't a feasible option AT LEAST until the group in question reaches the stage of Trade Company and can start establishing virtual contracts to supplement their income. Until that point, in order to make enough money to actually function in the process you are required to work in multiple markets, and why not? You aren't a House. You aren't anyone with a brand name that is supposed to be associated with a product or a good. IN FACT, you would be pretty stupid to try and associate your name with a specific product or good until you are much more powerful than a fledgling group working to climb the ladder.

There are very few, IF ANY markets in the game that aren't already monopolized by a power that would completely destroy you if you tried to step in at the beginning and put your name on a specific trade.

Here is a good example:

Weapons and Armor - This is arguably one of THE MOST profitable trades in the game for PC's. Even if you could focus on this and ONLY this, you would have an extremely hard time making enough money to actually fund your operation, pay your employees, and save enough funds to progress to the next "rank" in the MMH process. Even if you had multiple merchants working under you/with you to produce said goods, it would still probably not be possible.

The fact is, you can't. If you try to establish yourself as "The Weapons and Armor MMH", you will get crushed by Salarr, and for very good reason. It would be suicide.

So, even if there WAS a product that MIGHT let you make enough money to actually exist marketing only that product....which there really isn't....it is already monopolized by a group that would crush you for attempting it. (And they should.)


Going back a bit. As previously stated I believe these groups should not be pressured to actually start focusing on a specific single craft/market/service UNTIL they reach at least the level of Trade Company and can start establishing virtual contracts.

Why? Because in reality this follows the premade script and recipes already working with the other great Houses MORE than not. Those great Houses only make enough money to actually exist because MOST of their money is made virtually.

The already established Houses DID NOT have to go through the MMH process in order to exist. They were more or less granted existence and their income stream has always been for the most part largely virtual and not subject to realistic accounting.

A fledgling group trying to grow into an MMH IS subject to realistic accounting and the actual real PC to PC/NPC economy of the gameworld.

I can tell you, it is an infinitely more complex and entirely different in every regard ballgame when compared to an already established House. They aren't even in the same book.

Once a fledgling MMH reaches the level of Trade Company, THAT is when they should start being pressured to try and focus on a single "thing". At this point they can start pulling potential virtual contracts for a virtual revenue stream (just like the established Houses use to exist) to supplement the fact that realistically the economy would not support them on a "single thing plan" with real accounting.

ALSO, at the point of Trade Company, they are expected to establish a relationship with a much more powerful entity to more or less "help them" along the way. In the documentation all of this is noted.

It's a great process, I just think we should actually stick MORE to the process and remember the limitations of the actual player economy AND the reason the different levels of the system exist to begin with.

They aren't a MMH yet. Holding them to the same rules as if they are already an established MMH isn't only NOT feasible, it's frustrating, and borderline sabotage to the group in question.

I once brought this up with staff and staff agreed with me that waiting until Trade Company to more directly "filter down" your focus into more of a "single thing system" was a good idea. It was agreed then that virtual contracts and patronage to a larger entity should be the vehicles that allow you to financially begin narrowing down your focus.

What I think NEEDS to happen is this specific point needs to be more readily described in both the player-side documentation and staff-side documentation.

A) It will make players who "can't come up with an idea for a thing that will work", realize they don't have to from square one. It will encourage people to start businesses and do fun things. I can't think of a single thing myself sitting here that isn't monopolized that would actually work from square one focusing on just that. I can't blame them.

B) It would ensure staff ALSO realizes the error in trying to push this from square one, since from square one, it's not realistic.


(I think it is absolutely fine to tell the players who are creating these businesses to "Keep in mind at some point you are going to have to narrow down your scope of trade/services to be more in line with the Houses already in place, and you should plan for that.". However, beyond that, I don't think they should face any pressure or derision for basically playing within the reality of the IC player economy. This may have also already been changed and looked at since I was last part of the system. I just know the documentation hasn't changed to reflect it player-side, so it seemed like a good point to bring up.)

[wizturbo]

They had a Senior Borsail noble backing them.

This is a fair assessment. Still, if a group can get a Senior Noble of any House to fund their operation now it equates to, "Staff gifted it to them.". Anything is easy when staff gifts it to you.

My only point was that you would have a very difficult time doing it the -same- way now as they did then.

*Though some things they did would still translate well.

It's all about how you perceive staffs involvement.  Newsflash,  staff "gift" every single character in the game with their existence when they approve the app.  They "gift" every special application or sponsored role with their specialized station, powers,wealth, etc.

It's a nonstarter to say staff will have to be involved in starting a MMH.  With that said, getting a Senior noble to back your business is very much achievable.  Either take a junior noble and help elevate them to Senior (be it a PC or NPC) or do lots of very useful things for a House and hope it catches the attention of their Senior nobility.  If the new system were in place many years ago, having played with Pearl I feel it likely she could have made Terash happen.  She also didn't start trying to make the Atrium.  That came later, after amassing a huge amount of support from Borsail.

[Desertman]

They had a Senior Borsail noble backing them.

This is a fair assessment. Still, if a group can get a Senior Noble of any House to fund their operation now it equates to, "Staff gifted it to them.". Anything is easy when staff gifts it to you.

My only point was that you would have a very difficult time doing it the -same- way now as they did then.

*Though some things they did would still translate well.

It's all about how you perceive staffs involvement.  Newsflash,  staff "gift" every single character in the game with their existence when they approve the app.  They "gift" every special application or sponsored role with their specialized station, powers,wealth, etc.

It's a nonstarter to say staff will have to be involved in starting a MMH.  With that said, getting a Senior noble to back your business is very much achievable.  Either take a junior noble and help elevate them to Senior (be it a PC or NPC) or do lots of very useful things for a House and hope it catches the attention of their Senior nobility.  If the new system were in place many years ago, having played with Pearl I feel it likely she could have made Terash happen.  She also didn't start trying to make the Atrium.  That came later, after amassing a huge amount of support from Borsail.

I'm sure she could have, but the fact is, she didn't.

[wizturbo]

Desertman,  profit isn't what you need to get MMH off the ground.  You need backing.  Far, far more then coin.

Backing lowers the costs (less or no bribes).

Backing can supply all the fees you need.

Backing can protect you and your employees.

The way to get ahead in Allanak is nepotism.  Trying to get ahead on sheer hard work is very much hardmode.

[Desertman]

Desertman,  profit isn't what you need to get MMH off the ground.  You need backing.  Far, far more then coin.

Backing lowers the costs (less or no bribes).

Backing can supply all the fees you need.

Backing can protect you and your employees.

The way to get ahead in Allanak is nepotism.  Trying to get ahead on sheer hard work is very much hardmode.

No, you need profit, and backing.

How you plan to get that profit is the question.

If you can convince someone to basically give you the money, good for you.

However, that's not the process I'm talking about. I agree it is a potential solution to the process, but not the one I'm focusing on since it doesn't really need discussion.

If you can get someone to give you the money instead of actually earn it (though I agree, if you can convince them to back you/give it to you, you have earned it politically), well, jackpot for you. Well done. Enjoy your MMH.

[Armaddict]

Desertman,  profit isn't what you need to get MMH off the ground.  You need backing.  Far, far more then coin.

Backing lowers the costs (less or no bribes).

Backing can supply all the fees you need.

Backing can protect you and your employees.

The way to get ahead in Allanak is nepotism.  Trying to get ahead on sheer hard work is very much hardmode.

Yeaaaah, while all this is accurate, stating that this is the way of going about things is basically the equivalent of calling the process created, and the steps defined in it, as a smokescreen for 'Pretend you can get it, but what you actually need is for staff to want you there.'

We can agree on that if you like, but I don't think that's the sort of position you actually want to take in a discussion about the process that was created and steps defined in it, as a manner of feedback.

[Suhuy]

If you have a look at the history page you'll see some powerful examples of what the merchant houses are capable of. They don't need to have a seat on the Allanaki senate to be powerful, influential, and even political (though in the instance of the latter, it's usually done covertly to maintain the notion of neutrality).

Remember who Kadius sided with during the time of Allanak's occupation in the North. Remember who Kurac sided with when liberating their outpost of Allanaki occupiers. These are not small matters and they show just how deep the political motives of a merchant house can go, regardless of how neutral they pretend to be.

[wizturbo]

Yeaaaah, while all this is accurate, stating that this is the way of going about things is basically the equivalent of calling the process created, and the steps defined in it, as a smokescreen for 'Pretend you can get it, but what you actually need is for staff to want you there.'

Absolutely they have to want you there.  Of course they have to want to support you.  In order to play this game at all, staff have to want you there, or they won't even approve your character application.

What would the alternative be?  That by performing some coded actions in game, or getting enough PC's to support you, you can force staff to codedly build your clan into the game?   "Hey storyteller, I know you really wanted to work on that new spell, but since Wizturbo completed his 10th monthly installment of taxes you have to spend your weekend building House Wonka, his candy-selling MMH."  

Why would staff create a path towards clan creation, if they didn't want players to do it?  Why create a smokescreen, when the status quo was not to allow it for the last ten years?  

I realize you're not actually making this argument Armaddict, but the tone and content of some posts on this thread seem to suggest it.

We can agree on that if you like, but I don't think that's the sort of position you actually want to take in a discussion about the process that was created and steps defined in it, as a manner of feedback.

That isn't the argument I'm trying to make.  I'm saying that ICly, in order to advance to the level of MMH, getting the backing of a significant political power is absolutely essential.  It is far, far more important than profit.  Theoretically your business could make 0 sid, and still advance to MMH if someone big enough decided to back you.  The reverse is impossible.

Another thing to consider is this little tidbit "May work with staff and IC organizations to pursue reasonable virtual contracts. "  You can get money coming in virtually, if you can get the backing of some organization to agree to these contracts.

The key is getting strong political support so you can get those contracts, as well as to protect you from getting robbed by the corruption that's rampant in Allanak.  It's going to be very hard to do that as an elf, half-breed, northerner, gemmed-kanker, or any other socially stigmatized individual in Allanak.  That doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means that player is choosing to play this already difficult game on Ironman Nightmare mode.  If I desperately wanted to try and create a MMH the "easy way", I would probably start by applying as a bastard noble.

[Armaddict]

Absolutely they have to want you there.  Of course they have to want to support you.  In order to play this game at all, staff have to want you there, or they won't even approve your character application.

What would the alternative be?  That by performing some coded actions in game, or getting enough PC's to support you, you can force staff to codedly build your clan into the game?   "Hey storyteller, I know you really wanted to work on that new spell, but since Wizturbo completed his 10th monthly installment of taxes you have to spend your weekend building House Wonka, his candy-selling MMH."  

Why would staff create a path towards clan creation, if they didn't want players to do it?  Why create a smokescreen, when the status quo was not to allow it for the last ten years?  

I realize you're not actually making this argument Armaddict, but the tone and content of some posts on this thread seem to suggest it.

Very well worded.  There are indeed other ways to see it, but the way you've defined mine definitely puts it on a tone other than the one I have, which is more along the lines that there is an inferrance when you create a clearly defined progression of achievements towards a goal, that you actually maintaining those achievements means that you are moving along that path of progression.  So the idea that it is actually still just an arbitrary 'we feel like it or we don't' isn't that compatible with the defined system itself being the required criteria instead of you happening to be in the good graces of the powers who put the system in place for you to have the chance in the first place.

If that makes any sense.
Edit for clarity.  I hope.

[Patuk]

Yeaaaah, while all this is accurate, stating that this is the way of going about things is basically the equivalent of calling the process created, and the steps defined in it, as a smokescreen for 'Pretend you can get it, but what you actually need is for staff to want you there.'

What would the alternative be?  That by performing some coded actions in game, or getting enough PC's to support you, you can force staff to codedly build your clan into the game?

Yes.

Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't expect people to call you on your being crass? Others can do that too.

Now, I know the problems with this position. Taken to its extreme, it means bugging staff about every little tent camp and scribbled wall and whatever the hell else a random person might want in the game. Staff time and skill are very finite resources, and those are better allocated in important places that are more likely to see use than the random figments of one person's imagination. I know, that's not a good idea.

But, the thing is, that's not the game world we're playing in. It's not even close. The state of the game is one where I can draft up a number of documents that'd befit a proper clan in a few days, and have to wait three freaking months for me to even be allowed to play a small celf tribe with three other people knowing full well it'd have no staff backing at all. Staff aren't in danger of players 'forcing' them to do anything in any comparable regard to the reverse, as this thread is already full of people saying they often feel stonewalled by NPCs telling them off for [REDACTED]. Your horror scenario of a poor, poor staffer wanting to work on a spell but aw shucks someone paid his taxes is such a vanishingly small part of the game that it's not even there.

The reverse, OTOH, happens all the time. It's not even bad that it does; if staff want to see something happen in the game, and it's not completely outlandish, it's a good thing that it should happen. This sort of thing culminates in the first ever MMH to pop up after the change is one that staff decided to load up in Red Storm, because obviously players can't get it done themselves, or something. Very, very little in game seems to happen without staff having been on board with it before it happened anyway, which is the sorts of thing this thread also gets at.

A coded guideline/threshold changes that. At minimum, there has to be some point where a player should expect staff to have the game world take notice of them. If, for example, I hadn't completely messed up with my elven tribe and by this point been responsible for the assassination of seven templars under the orders of several high level nobles and red robed templars, which I very well know is hyperbole, it'd be a tad silly for it to still be written off as a bunch of thugs nobody would know. The MMH is a good step in that direction: it gives people a clear point at which they can tell staff they ought to be taken seriously. This position isn't a very radical one, or staff wouldn't have endorsed it; whether or not it is enough, needs tweaking, needs more freedom to either side is something up for debate, but that's okay, this thread has had some suggestions so far, and staff have taken a whole bunch of gdb suggestions in consideration. Arguing there should be no way for the playerbase to ever be able to have a real claim on power is outright silly, though.

[wizturbo]

It isn't arbitrary though.  Overly ambiguous?  Perhaps.  But not arbitrary.

When the staff decided to permit players to pursue creating their own clans, they had some model in their head of what a successful attempt would look like.  The guidelines they wrote on the website are an attempt at communicating that model.  It isn't whimsy or random when they consider what projects they'll be interested in supporting.  The fact that they wrote down some guidelines at all proves there is something non-arbitrary driving which projects they want to support.  

I can speculate on what those things might be.  Here are several that came to mind:

• Does the concept reinforce the setting?
• Does the concept drive deeper player engagement?
• How much work will the concept require to build?  How much will it require to maintain?  Do we have staff that are able to work on this right now?
• Does this concept cannibalize players from existing supported clans?
• Is this concept different enough from existing clans to make it worth the effort of building?
• Is the player driving this concept trustworthy?  
• Is this player easy to communicate with?  
• Is this player reliable?
• How do we handle IC forces that are trying to oppose this concept?  Especially virtual ones.

All of this stuff probably comes into play somewhere.  Does it really make sense to outline all of this stuff for players in the public guidelines?  A lot of this touches on private issues.  If a MMH aspiring player isn't trustworthy, and that's why the staff don't want to work with them, what are they supposed to do in that case?  Tell the player that?  Give them a few tests to see if they can show they really are trustworthy?  

None of this stuff is cut and dry and simple.  None of this stuff is easily indexed into some clear charter that players can follow.  It would be -a lot- of work to try and document all this, come up with policies for each situation, and maintain those policies as things inevitable change.  And what would we all get in exchange for this herculean effort?  The feeling that this process isn't arbitrary...  Not very much juice for all the squeezing needed to get it if you ask me.

[wizturbo]

Arguing there should be no way for the playerbase to ever be able to have a real claim on power is outright silly, though.

I'm not arguing that there should be no way for the playerbase to ever be able to have a real claim on power.  I'm arguing that there should be no way for the playerbase to ever be able to claim ownership of another person's free time and effort.

If no staff members like your elf clan, and they don't want to do the work required to support it, then you're shit out of luck until someone does.  Some MUDs handle this by charging real money for staff support.  Armageddon handles this by letting staff work on stuff that interests them.  One method stings the wallet (and generally has pretty shoddy quality), the other method has the sting of rejection when you don't get what you want and don't really have any recourse on how you can go about getting it.   

And ultimately that is the core problem with this entire issue if you ask me.  Armageddon heavily pushes "Player driven plots" as a core tenet, but what happens when one player's idea of a cool plot doesn't resonate with staff?   Unsurprisingly, the plot doesn't get much love, and the player gets disappointed because they had some expectation that their ideas are what staff are supposed to work on.  Maybe that's why I've personally always cheered for staff driven plots.  It takes away any opportunity for 'rejection' when there's no expectation that the player is supposed to do anything besides play their own role.

[Patuk]

Arguing there should be no way for the playerbase to ever be able to have a real claim on power is outright silly, though.

I'm not arguing that there should be no way for the playerbase to ever be able to have a real claim on power.  I'm arguing that there should be no way for the playerbase to ever be able to claim ownership of another person's free time and effort.

If no staff members like your elf clan, and they don't want to do the work required to support it, then you're shit out of luck until someone does.  Some MUDs handle this by charging real money for staff support.  Armageddon handles this by letting staff work on stuff that interests them.  One method stings the wallet (and generally has pretty shoddy quality), the other method has the sting of rejection when you don't get what you want and don't really have any recourse on how you can go about getting it.   

And ultimately that is the core problem with this entire issue if you ask me.  Armageddon heavily pushes "Player driven plots" as a core tenet, but what happens when one player's idea of a cool plot doesn't resonate with staff?   Unsurprisingly, the plot doesn't get much love, and the player gets disappointed because they had some expectation that their ideas are what staff are supposed to work on.  Maybe that's why I've personally always cheered for staff driven plots.  It takes away any opportunity for 'rejection' when there's no expectation that the player is supposed to do anything besides play their own role.

And that's a perfectly reasonable position to take. If you want to argue that players shouldn't ever get the final word in deciding where staff time gets spent, and therefor player-made plots should be secondary to staff-initiated ones, that's very consistent and probably not wrong to say the least. It certainly is better than having player-run plots be what's nominally happening in game but such things never really getting off the ground much because players don't actually get to add or modify stuff as they will.

[Armaddict]

It isn't arbitrary though.  Overly ambiguous?  Perhaps.  But not arbitrary.

When the staff decided to permit players to pursue creating their own clans, they had some model in their head of what a successful attempt would look like.  The guidelines they wrote on the website are an attempt at communicating that model.  It isn't whimsy or random when they consider what projects they'll be interested in supporting.  The fact that they wrote down some guidelines at all proves there is something non-arbitrary driving which projects they want to support.  

I can speculate on what those things might be.  Here are several that came to mind:

• Does the concept reinforce the setting?
• Does the concept drive deeper player engagement?
• How much work will the concept require to build?  How much will it require to maintain?  Do we have staff that are able to work on this right now?
• Does this concept cannibalize players from existing supported clans?
• Is this concept different enough from existing clans to make it worth the effort of building?
• Is the player driving this concept trustworthy?  
• Is this player easy to communicate with?  
• Is this player reliable?
• How do we handle IC forces that are trying to oppose this concept?  Especially virtual ones.

All of this stuff probably comes into play somewhere.  Does it really make sense to outline all of this stuff for players in the public guidelines?  A lot of this touches on private issues.  If a MMH aspiring player isn't trustworthy, and that's why the staff don't want to work with them, what are they supposed to do in that case?  Tell the player that?  Give them a few tests to see if they can show they really are trustworthy?  

None of this stuff is cut and dry and simple.  None of this stuff is easily indexed into some clear charter that players can follow.  It would be -a lot- of work to try and document all this, come up with policies for each situation, and maintain those policies as things inevitable change.  And what would we all get in exchange for this herculean effort?  The feeling that this process isn't arbitrary...  Not very much juice for all the squeezing needed to get it if you ask me.

At this point I'm not really arguing your point; yours is a perspective that I adopt on other fronts of the game.  I think this post focuses in a little too hard on the use of the word arbitrary and thus kind of avoids the actual purpose of the use of the word, or the 'spirit' of the message at large, if you will.

Again, that's not to say I'm arguing your point.  I accept that point of view, but disagree with it on the basis that I think more people on the path of MMH at any given time is better for the game, and that it was greatly appreciated for what it was outlined as: a systemic, reliable, and challenging way to have your character leave something lasting, and the realization of the -long- time request for PC's to be able to start, from the ground up, an in-game organization.

There was a lot of demand for these things.  People asked for something like this for years.  I've seen a few attempts come and go, seen the warehouses used now and again...but there really isn't that feeling of prevalence that I was expecting, considering all the time that people wanted it.  Maybe the interest just waned when it was attainable, but I was kind of expecting to see a lot more of these attempted, and rivalries growing, and basically more content to the game as a result.  I could never say that's not happening at all, but it's not to the degree that I expected, and so having the ins and outs discussed, the hardships and things that are -possible- to tweak to make it better?  I like that stuff.  I think changes to make things more fitting around it are a good thing, if it gets more involvement in the game out of it.

If that kind of thing has a hard time rallying staff support (Edit: I'm not saying none of them receive help or staff aren't doing things, I'm responding to wizturbo's description of staff support, i.e. they have to want it to exist), then I'd say it's affirmed that the system in place doesn't really work that well, and we may as well do it the way Terash did it, rather than drape it in the appearance of being attainable as long as you follow (and succeed in) the steps.  It was known when presented that it would require both changes in the future and a workload from the players and staff involved.  Hearing resistance against addressing the concerns as well as the idea that one side just doesn't want to do that work and shouldn't be forced to is a pretty bleak thing to hear for what came out with so much enthusiasm.  I'm not sure if the Dust Runners were started as a staff-run effort as some people have said, but if that's the only case of this system actually working...I'd say there's some things to be examined more closely in the set up, or make it clearer that Players shouldn't count on it succeeding even if they manage to fulfill the needs listed.  It's just not a very encouraging feeling, over all.

[Jihelu]

I'd like to see ways for clans to be created outside of cities.

[nauta]

I'd like to see ways for clans to be created outside of cities.

This broadly falls into the theme of the topic.  Here are some ideas on facilitating more small groups outside the cities (or even inside, e.g., gangs in the rinth).  First, here's what we currently have:

o Family Role Calls.
o C-elf Tribe Role Calls.
o MMH (which, broadly understood, could also support a mercenary company -- it isn't all mercantile, but it does seem to be designed with more mercantile groups in mind).

What I'd like is something to allow for dynamic groups that sprout up now and then on the fly -- skimmer crews, raider bands, non-Guild gangs, a group of farmers or herders, refugees, etc.

1. OOC Communication/Coordination of Playtimes.  Perhaps make it easier to generate on-the-fly clan boards where you can manage RPTs, playtimes, away, small rumours, etc.  Staff can monitor these, approve them, and so on.  You'd have to have, say, three PCs at minimum to make it worth the while, and maybe wait at least an IG year.

2. Save Room Request.  If the group survives for 3 IG years, you can submit a request for a 'save' room at a spot, or maybe a room description change -- depending on what the coded stuff about save rooms is.  Perhaps there could be 10 save rooms reserved for this purpose (i.e., a dynamo-clan could request just one and there could be 10 dynamo clans).  No doors or locks or NPCs or anything like that, just a place you can MUSH around with 'arrange' and have it preserve, e.g., a campsite, a dingy bakery in the rinth, a hovel in Storm.

3. vNPC request.  I don't know the coded reality, but one big frustration with establishing a space of your own outside the city is the random PC grab-and-run while you are logged off (in addition to crashes).  Perhaps a script could be added after 5 IG years that would have vNPCs report thieves to you, or a room echo like "A lot of refugees mill around here." 

If it were set-up to be dynamic, then when all the PCs have died in that dynamo-clan, everything (save room, board, etc.) just goes away.

[Suhuy]

The Atrium is a bad parallel for how to start up your own clan. The players involved were in the right place, at the right time, with the right staffer involved.

There is no formula for success in this day and age, nor should there be (as there isn't in life). The formula back then was have someone on staff like you. I choose to believe that in this day and age, things are different. No one expects a staffer to drop their projects just because your lone hunter in the desert has been dumping rocks in some room for months on end in hopes of one day having a cairn coded into existence. But if you keep plugging away at your goals, surely you'll earn at least a blip on the staff's radar and gain the mere chance for success. And that's all most people posting here are asking for. For a chance alone.

The main issue in my view is that most ideas won't add anything to the game, so why bother giving them attention each time someone new comes along hoping to make one? You want to start up your own clan of hunters? That pretty much already exists, in multiple clans. Crafters? Done. Spice dealers? Done. Weapons? Done. Hunting gear? Done. Etc.

This is why I advocate destruction as the best source for creation. Some clans should be seen as a foundation of the MUD, either untouchable or nearly so. But there are a lot of fossils of the game just sitting around that could easily be either destroyed or taken down a peg. Why was Borsail allowed back in when it would have been so much more fun to have sent them into exile? There are plenty of PC noble houses, and NPC ones who could have filled that void, allowing change for the first time in decades worth of real time.

My part in this discussion is not to point the finger at players or staff. Maybe players could have done more of this, or staff more of that. Fine, whatever. But if even one single clan were suddenly placed in a precarious situation, it would give players a chance to rise to the occasion and take part in knocking them down a peg. Maybe over time they take them over completely, and after a considerable length of time multiple players will have provided docs and other material to help flesh out a new clan into existence. For almost every clan that's out there, I think they're pretty cool. But it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if any one of them were displaced, or replaced. The devolution of a clan could lead to the evolution of something new, with a new set of allies and enemies and culture all its own.

Just take something, anything, and tear it apart. Even if you establish the game in such a way that now there's an exact formula for creating your own clan, players won't really enjoy it in the long term unless it's filling the void of something actually, truly needed. And you can't really have that without destroying something first. Even with Tuluk currently on hiatus, there are still so many clans out there that taking one down specifically for the purpose of having it replaced would detract nothing. It would, in fact, add a great deal. Just do it!

[Taven]

I'd like to see ways for clans to be created outside of cities.

This broadly falls into the theme of the topic.  Here are some ideas on facilitating more small groups outside the cities (or even inside, e.g., gangs in the rinth).  First, here's what we currently have:

o Family Role Calls.
o C-elf Tribe Role Calls.
o MMH (which, broadly understood, could also support a mercenary company -- it isn't all mercantile, but it does seem to be designed with more mercantile groups in mind).

What I'd like is something to allow for dynamic groups that sprout up now and then on the fly -- skimmer crews, raider bands, non-Guild gangs, a group of farmers or herders, refugees, etc.

I agree. Right now the MMH option is the only option to make a long-term clan, and the only place you can do it is Allanak.

It would be nice to see options in other areas in the Known, as well as other clan options that aren't based solely on selling something.

1. OOC Communication/Coordination of Playtimes.  Perhaps make it easier to generate on-the-fly clan boards where you can manage RPTs, playtimes, away, small rumours, etc.  Staff can monitor these, approve them, and so on.  You'd have to have, say, three PCs at minimum to make it worth the while, and maybe wait at least an IG year.

2. Save Room Request.  If the group survives for 3 IG years, you can submit a request for a 'save' room at a spot, or maybe a room description change -- depending on what the coded stuff about save rooms is.  Perhaps there could be 10 save rooms reserved for this purpose (i.e., a dynamo-clan could request just one and there could be 10 dynamo clans).  No doors or locks or NPCs or anything like that, just a place you can MUSH around with 'arrange' and have it preserve, e.g., a campsite, a dingy bakery in the rinth, a hovel in Storm.

3. vNPC request.  I don't know the coded reality, but one big frustration with establishing a space of your own outside the city is the random PC grab-and-run while you are logged off (in addition to crashes).  Perhaps a script could be added after 5 IG years that would have vNPCs report thieves to you, or a room echo like "A lot of refugees mill around here." 

If it were set-up to be dynamic, then when all the PCs have died in that dynamo-clan, everything (save room, board, etc.) just goes away.

The above ideas are definitely things that would be useful to more dynamic group types, but I think we would need outlines to what would make it possible to earn this and other things.

Here's what I'd like to see:

• Official support and guidelines for making a wilds-based antagonist group - Including solid and lasting structures
• Official support and guidelines for making a lasting tribe as a clan
• Official support and guidelines for making a clan in civilized areas that aren't Allanak (Red Storm, Luirs, Morin's)
• Official suppose and guidelines for clans within cities that may not be primarily merchant focused

[nauta]

I'd see it less as a permanent thing but a temporary thing.  Hence, I'd like to see more of a low-barrier for entry (keeping three PCs alive for 1 IG year to unlock the clan board is reasonable-ish; 3 IG for a save room; etc.) and automate most of the process (with room for staff to veto things that don't make sense) -- both generation and destruction -- thus allowing (so to say) pop-up clans to come and go.

For me, at least, the biggest thing is coordinating with clan-mates and, to a lesser extent, some flavor (save rooms) for the main hang-out joint.

Also should say with #2: should be a save/quit room for OOC convenience.

[Norcal]

I'd like to see ways for clans to be created outside of cities.

This broadly falls into the theme of the topic.  Here are some ideas on facilitating more small groups outside the cities (or even inside, e.g., gangs in the rinth).  First, here's what we currently have:

o Family Role Calls.
o C-elf Tribe Role Calls.
o MMH (which, broadly understood, could also support a mercenary company -- it isn't all mercantile, but it does seem to be designed with more mercantile groups in mind).

What I'd like is something to allow for dynamic groups that sprout up now and then on the fly -- skimmer crews, raider bands, non-Guild gangs, a group of farmers or herders, refugees, etc.

1. OOC Communication/Coordination of Playtimes.  Perhaps make it easier to generate on-the-fly clan boards where you can manage RPTs, playtimes, away, small rumours, etc.  Staff can monitor these, approve them, and so on.  You'd have to have, say, three PCs at minimum to make it worth the while, and maybe wait at least an IG year.

2. Save Room Request.  If the group survives for 3 IG years, you can submit a request for a 'save' room at a spot, or maybe a room description change -- depending on what the coded stuff about save rooms is.  Perhaps there could be 10 save rooms reserved for this purpose (i.e., a dynamo-clan could request just one and there could be 10 dynamo clans).  No doors or locks or NPCs or anything like that, just a place you can MUSH around with 'arrange' and have it preserve, e.g., a campsite, a dingy bakery in the rinth, a hovel in Storm.

3. vNPC request.  I don't know the coded reality, but one big frustration with establishing a space of your own outside the city is the random PC grab-and-run while you are logged off (in addition to crashes).  Perhaps a script could be added after 5 IG years that would have vNPCs report thieves to you, or a room echo like "A lot of refugees mill around here." 

If it were set-up to be dynamic, then when all the PCs have died in that dynamo-clan, everything (save room, board, etc.) just goes away.

This is a really good idea.  Allow trusted players to develop non city based and dynamic groups. The only support they would need is a page on the gdb where members can check in and arrange RPT times etc.  The quality of membership is the fact that you have access to the group boards.

No warehouses, no compounds or shops. You might get one guarded save/quit room if you show staff that you have a consistent member base. 

Nice idea Natua!