It's Tough Being Big

[IAmJacksOpinion]

While not a large portion of the population, relatively, half-giants are none-the-less a daily sight in the game world. However, the world has never really adapted to that fact. So, here are some ideas I'd like to throw out there. They're mostly to increase playability* of the role.

*By "playability" here, I mean pain points that can be OOCly annoying, but don't make any sense in the IC sense of the word. I am not calling HGs unplayable by any stretch of the imagination. They're OP as fuck. Honestly, I think they should be nerfed, but that's beside the point...

1. Inixes in Allanak. Roughly 95% of the NPC inixes in the game spawn in areas adjacent to Vrun Driath; a HELLUVA long ways away from Tuluk. Yet inix have always been a Tuluk-only mount as far as mount sellers go. I'm okay with having different mounts for different regions, but since there's only one type of mount a HG can actually ride, I feel like at least one breed of inix should be available in Allanak. Doesn't have to be a fancy one. There's absolutely no reason a HG should have to walk to the completely opposite side of the world for something as basic as a mount.

And, before someone says it, yes I agree that "NPC population does not equal vNPC population", but c'mon, if Inix are supposed to be Northern-only someone should spawn some more up there. Until then, there's absolutely no reason for them to be unavailable in other regions.

2. More HG weapons. Seeing as HGs are always scarfed up as a staple in military unit, you'd expect there to be more weapons designed for them. Currently there are 2 weapons spawned every reboot that are specifically built for HGs. And since they're usually bought up with the ninja quickness, most HGs starting out will run around with inappropriately sized weapons. I'm not knocking anyone for it. I do it too. I find the biggest regular-sized weapon I can find and roll with it. But lets face it, we all find it a little jarring don't we? Whenever I see a HG running around with something like a scimitar, I can't help but imagine it as one of those sword-shaped sandwich skewers.  I'm not asking for a huge variety here, but if Salarr stocked (as in buy all you want) one basic weapon of each damage type, I think we'd all be better off. One basic sword, axe, club, and spear. If you want something fancy, custom order.

OR, the other way to do this would be to revisit larger weapons and consider implementing them in a way that allowed HGs to one-hand weapons that would normally be two-handers. A human's greatsword becomes a HGs longsword. Or something similar.

3. Inventory. Can we just get a like a five slot min, regardless of Agi? Or just uncouple inventory slots from agility altogether! Give everyone X. No more, no less. Having this tied to agility really doesn't make a lot of sense. "I'm dextrous, so I can hold more boulders than you."


So, those are the 3 things that always get me about HGs. I know someone's going to bring up the Armor tax, so I'll give you my take on it right away. I'm fine with the armor tax. There are a lot of good, basic armors that are stocked at any armor store, and can be bought to fit you right away. If you have money to shell out for higher-tier armors (horror shell, etc.) you should have the extra ~300 to size them up. And honestly, it makes total sense when you think about it. A HG is roughly 10-12 times the size of a human (going by weight) so their armor is going to use WAY more material. If we really wanted it to be realistic, HG armor would probably cost at least 5x as much as human armor, just from material costs alone. Don't agree? Go to your local pizza joint and order an extra large at the small price. You'd be laughed at, for a reason.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I would kind of like to see a half-giant table and chair set in the Gaj---- something they can actually sit and relax and regenerate movement at.

[Patuk]

I would kind of like to see a half-giant table and chair set in the Gaj---- something they can actually sit and relax and regenerate movement at.

Isn't there an echo about a HG sitting on the floor?

[Erythil]

A single half-giant sized armchair would be a fun flavor thing to have in the Gaj.

[Case]

It's because inix are dumb lumbering mounts that eat a lot of vegetation and the south has basically no vegetation

[yousuff]

I'm not sure if it's too IC to say, but I know Salarr's weaponsmith in allanak sells a voulge which is pretty damn big and always available. I know half elves are completely unable to wield it, so I think seeing a half giant with one would be more than fitting. As for the rest, I don't know. I think instead of making inixes available in Allanak, another mount that half giants are capable of riding down south should be made available. Seeing an inix (which is meant to be a monstrosity of a beast requiring huge amounts of pasture/food) in the deserts around Allanak should be the exception, not the norm.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

It's because inix are dumb lumbering mounts that eat a lot of vegetation and the south has basically no vegetation

Yeah, they're not FROM Vrun Driath. But like I said, 90% of the inix mobs in game spawn about a 10-15 minute (IRL) ride from Allanak so they're far from inaccessible to the South. Unless you're referring to upkeep costs which are pretty much token to begin with. 

I'm not sure if it's too IC to say, but I know Salarr's weaponsmith in allanak sells a voulge which is pretty damn big and always available.

Yeah, there are some scattered around that are fitting. But I think even that one doesn't always load or only loads one. Even your bigger swords (longsword, bastard swords) I think you could get away with using it like it was a shortsword for you. But with HGs being these huge power houses that everyone wants to get more of on their team, you'd think some properly sized weapons would be available.

I think instead of making inixes available in Allanak, another mount that half giants are capable of riding down south should be made available.

This is also good. Hamanu's mekillot riding, lance-wielding shock troops ftw!

[valeria]

MMH thought: a house that caters solely to half-giants.

I wouldn't mind seeing a little more hg gear in shops. But (and maybe I'm just a curmudgeon today) I think if you're playing a 3-karma race, some amount of playability consideration is gone. It's fine that you have to go out of your way to get a mount from another area of the game world, and specially order or get most gear sized up at a cost. It feels very IC to me.

[Jihelu]

Half giant specific house for creation 2k16.
One of ya'll fuckers best make this.
Ironically employ only dwarves.
My only fear is Salarr would shit on you for making weapons or something.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I don't think we need to go that far. HGs need basically all the same stuff everybody needs, they just need it in an XXXXXXXXL size.

I'm also fine with stuff being more expensive for them as a trade off, but completely unavailable for no reason other than what appears to be oversight is what I'm campaigning against here.

[BadSkeelz]

Half-giants should be 4 karma.

[Jihelu]

Make weapon resizes a thing.
Turn your dagger into a hg dagger.
Ironically wielding it at this point is basically making it a longsword.

[manipura]

I have tried to make things specifically half-giant sized before.  I wanted to make a whole bunch of "half-giant this/that/the other thing" that were only to be used by half-giants.  For example, "a half-giant's obsidian longsword, a half-giant's wooden longbow, a half-giant's bone-tipped spear."  Things that were specifically made for someone that size.  I mostly was wanting it to be non-armor items, because armor at least can be re-sized...though it's being res-sized so much it's almost like a new item is being made.
The general consensus seemed to be "No you can't do this.  You can't make items race-specific so that other people can't use them.  And you can't call it a [race's] something, because that discourages other people from trying to use it, if they so desire, no matter how silly it is for them to try."

A single half-giant sized armchair would be a fun flavor thing to have in the Gaj.

A few characters ago I had a PC in the Byn who felt badly about her half-giant Bynner friend who couldn't sit at the Byn table with everyone.
There was usually not room at the bar for everyone to sit, so they always filled up the Byn table.  My PC would sit on the floor with her half-giant friend because there just aren't any other options and it made the half-giant sad to have to be the only Bynner on the floor.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

The general consensus seemed to be "No you can't do this.  You can't make items race-specific so that other people can't use them.  And you can't call it a [race's] something, because that discourages other people from trying to use it, if they so desire, no matter how silly it is for them to try."

That's discouraging. I know the AOD and Legions each have at least one greatsword / greataxe that allude in their mdescs to being made for HG sized characters. I can agree that weapons shouldn't be impossible for any race to use, but describing its massive size and making it weigh like 25-30 stones would achieve the same effect without making it strictly "race specific." Some people might be able to wield it, but the rigors of encumbrance management would discourage all but the most self-masturbatory of the "humongous" durfs from actually using it as a main weapon.

A single half-giant sized armchair would be a fun flavor thing to have in the Gaj.

This would be fun. I had a HG Legionaire / Bard one time who would sit crosslegged on the floor of the Sanctuary, and a few PCs would actually just crawl up on his lap and sit there while he sang. (Shuddup, I'm not a hypocrite, bards are okay as long as they're ironic! :p)

[valeria]

I don't think that means you can't make large items, more that you can't specify "half-giant sized whatever," which makes sense since things can be sized down.  It wouldn't have to be race-specific to come huge-sized as the default. I can think of several items that are effectively hg sized (even though they could be used by a humans/dwarves/muls with sufficient strength).

[manipura]

I wasn't going to do armor, because it can be sized down.  What I had in mind was weapons, bags, and tools that can't be resized.
Sure you can make a HG sized dagger that say, a strong dwarf can also wield...but looking at the size of a dwarf and a HG...I don't think I'd look at both side by side with the weapon and think it's a dagger in both cases.  What is a dagger to a half-giant is going to be beyond dagger-size to a smaller person.  You end up with a dwarf  using a 'dagger' that is larger than his longsword.  It's not just the weight, it's the sheer size of something. 

I just wanted to try and do something about the fact that I felt like half-giants get the short end of the stick a lot of the time, in regard to having to use items that are clearly not their size or resizable.

[valeria]

I feel like we're talking past each other. It seems like you're saying "I wanted to do this thing a specific way" and I'm saying "well maybe you can't do it that specific way but you could still do it" and you're saying "yeah but I wanted to do it a specific way." My point is that I'm pretty sure someone could find a way to do what would effectively be the thing (items made at a larger size), just not in the specific way you wanted to do it (having the designed items be race-specific).

I'm not sure that the word dagger would have to be a big deal. It could still be a very large dagger if a dwarf was holding it. Proportionately, the grip to blade ratio would still be of knife proportion. Or you could just avoid the word "dagger" and call it poinard. Or I would personally would also accept handwavium for what is basically a code issue.

Anyway half-giant focused MMH. Be the change 

[manipura]

I realize that big-sized things -can- be made, that's not the issue.  They can't be race-specific and the sdesc can't be specific to the race.  They can be made and the mdescs can strongly hint at them being designed for a half-giant, yes.
All I'm saying is that I don't like that due to those restrictions, I can't make a bunch of items only for half-giants.

I feel like the sheer size of items that a half-giant would use almost makes them something different entirely, from the regular sized versions.  It's why I used the example of a dagger.  Because it stops being a dagger when a regular person is wielding it.  Yes, the grip to blade ratio would still be of a dagger's proportion, which makes it even sillier in my mind that someone not of that proportion can use it.  If I have a dagger clearly made for a half-giant, the proportions are such that their enormous hand fits around the hilt just right...does it make sense that a dwarf could wield it, even if they can manage the weight of it just fine?

It's like making a satchel designed for The Mountain, and then having Tyrion drag it around on the ground because it's too big for him to use, but there's nothing to stop him from trying because he can manage the weight.

[Culinary Critic]

Armour repair!

My HG buys a shield for two small.  It doesn't fit, of course, so it has to be sized, for a little over two small.  Then it takes a beating in training/hunting/etc., so back to armour repair we go, where the poor, dim-witted oaf gets told 17 sid to fix it, here's your ticket, come back in 2 hours.
2 hours later....and it's the same price as it was to size it originally!

Add to that, if a fresh-from-HOK HG takes his/her boots off to try some other ones on, most of the time they get the echo that the boots they JUST TOOK OFF are too small for them.  I've played bootless HGs over and over when I forget this and spent the sid already getting my bracer repaired/resized.

[Jihelu]

This also happens with dwarves/odd sized people, for what is described above.
DOn't remove starting clothes kids.

[Norcal]

HG are supposedly rare in the general population of Arm. Having shops that stock a bunch of weapons that are only suitable for HG or super strong dwarves does not make sense.

What does make sense is having such items available by order from Salarr, or other Indy merchants who might want to master craft them. If the description does not state that it is for a particular race, but rather just very large, it should be doable. Yet not being staff, I can't say that with assurance.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I would like it if Salaar stocked a single sword of average hg size and a single torso and leggings set, being as this is an issue people are going to disagree on. Give way halfway, and make everybody content, if not happy.

[Majikal]

Half-giants aren't super common, I think hg gear is a void that should/could/and even has on occasion been filled by crafters and indie merchants and Salarr if you have the coin for such a thing. The enormous cost of getting things sized for them is just one of many limitations on the race.

[Dan]

Does this still work if the vendor has "many" of an item to sell:

buy item race

Which gives you an item closer to what should fit that race? Or am I dreaming?

View #10

Too small for you to wear.

Buy #10 half-giant

Wear item

You put the item on.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Get your armor from the starting vendors maybe. They always have your size. Buy spares.

[QuillDipper]

Does this still work if the vendor has "many" of an item to sell:

buy item race

Which gives you an item closer to what should fit that race? Or am I dreaming?

View #10

Too small for you to wear.

Buy #10 half-giant

Wear item

You put the item on.

I think it only does that if one of the items in stock is in that size, it wont auto-resize

[WagonsHo]

Does this still work if the vendor has "many" of an item to sell:

buy item race

Which gives you an item closer to what should fit that race? Or am I dreaming?

View #10

Too small for you to wear.

Buy #10 half-giant

Wear item

You put the item on.

I think it only does that if one of the items in stock is in that size, it wont auto-resize

I believe it does this for "limitless supply" items only. AFAIK.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Does this still work if the vendor has "many" of an item to sell:

buy item race

Which gives you an item closer to what should fit that race? Or am I dreaming?

View #10

Too small for you to wear.

Buy #10 half-giant

Wear item

You put the item on.

In the case of items that have infinite stock ("many"), yes.  

"Buy <#> <race>" will give you that item in an average size for that race. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will fit you though, if you're particularly big or small for your race. But it will be closer.

"Buy <#>" will size the item to fit YOU automatically. If you're buying for yourself, this is what you should use.


It doesn't work for items where there is only one, or a "few", or "some". Only "many".

[Delirium]

Does this still work if the vendor has "many" of an item to sell:

buy item race

Which gives you an item closer to what should fit that race? Or am I dreaming?

View #10

Too small for you to wear.

Buy #10 half-giant

Wear item

You put the item on.

In the case of items that have infinite stock ("many"), yes.  

"Buy <#> <race>" will give you that item in an average size for that race. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will fit you though, if you're particularly big or small for your race. But it will be closer.

"Buy <#>" will size the item to fit YOU automatically. If you're buying for yourself, this is what you should use.


It doesn't work for items where there is only one, or a "few", or "some". Only "many".

Actually, buying the item without qualifications (as in your second example) will not work, it will simply buy the item in the size shown when you "view" it.

You have to "buy item race" to get it to fit you.

edit to fix typo: wow I'm out of it

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Actually, buying the item without qualifications (as in your second example) will not work, it will simply buy the item in the size shown when you "view" it.

I'm absolutely positive that what I posted is correct. If I was at home, I could dig up a log probably.

Edited to make less bitchy and add;  This behavior of "buy" isn't documented in the help files. It's one of those neat little code features that was documented via a release announcement somewhere years and years ago and promptly buried.

[Delirium]

I'm absolutely positive it doesn't always work. And yes, they were items with the "many" (i.e., infinite) designation.

This happened many, many times until I figured out the "buy # human" (or whatever race they were).

Not trying to be combative - merely that my experience has been the exact inverse.

SOME items are marked so that they will pick the correct size on an unqualified buy (and the game will indicate that by "if you want to choose this in your size, buy without haggling") however, for whatever reason unknown to me, that is not always - and is in fact not normally - the case.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

No prob on the combativeness, I had the same reaction. I've never actually had a problem with it myself, that I can recall.

I wonder if it's an issue of PCs being able to sell "many" items to merchants, tricking us into thinking that something is one of their infinites when it's really not?

[Inks]

I would like hg sized siege xbows. Ones that use specialist ammunition. Jave was going to fix existing ammunition xbows have available but I assume he left?                                      One thing I would like most is if hg were unavailable to spec app or bumped to 5 karma. The responsibility that comes with hg power is to stick to your stupidity and know less than the player.

I feel it would give new players a chance to observe hg before actually playing one like a god like human. This is not directed at anyone but if you feel like I am targeting you maybe you should ask yourself why you feel that way. More karma for hg or no spec app would fix many problems. I realise some new players pull it off and a good hg adds so much.

[Jihelu]

Make hg's like 4-5 karma and have them not required to be retarded a f
Still stupid.
But that stupid

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I could get behind the karma bump suggestion. Or keep them at the same karma but drop their size & physical stats a bit. Personally I'm more for the latter because as it stands, whether you're playing your HG properly* or not, they're frickin' implacable. I think I've been PK'd twice while playing a HG. Once was Delerak, 'nough said, and the other involved an ambush from a defiler, two elementalists, an assassin, a warrior, and a closed door. And we all still had plenty of time to emote and make a scene of it. And that was with like a 1 day played, non-combat class HG so... yeah. The guys are durable, and that can be a huge problem even if they are being played properly*.


* Properly here means removing your ego from the equation. I could give a shit how dumb/gullible/whatever you are as long as you're not just stroking your strength score fetish. If you rolled up a HG b/c you wanted dat strength score, do the world a favor and just go play a dwarf. Again.

[AdamBlue]

Fun fact: Half-giants, when adequately strong enough, can subdue and throw bahamet.
This means half-giants can subdue bahamet and throw them straight up.
With adequate wind conditions, this means the bahamet will be blown somewhere before falling.
This means half-giants can literally throw bahamet, if they're lucky, a few leagues away before it comes crashing down and dying.

[Inks]

Thanks AdamBlue for confirming both my and IAmJacksOpinion's posts in one go.

[Hauwke]

Fun fact: Half-giants, when adequately strong enough, can subdue and throw bahamet.
This means half-giants can subdue bahamet and throw them straight up.
With adequate wind conditions, this means the bahamet will be blown somewhere before falling.
This means half-giants can literally throw bahamet, if they're lucky, a few leagues away before it comes crashing down and dying.

Wow, that is insane.
But then if you have the karma for it you should be able to rp them properly, barring spec apps which to my experience are limited to those who have karma in the first place for this. But my point is, I like them where they are. They are supposed to be massive hunks of muscle and flesh who can tear you in half if they dont like you or you piss them off. Like a mul but far large stronger and stupider.

[AdamBlue]

My opinion is as such-
Lower Half-giant's defense against magic and give them a weakness to it, as they're creatures borne of magic, they can be more easily undone by magic, and with the more ability to be magical in-game now.
Make it so that half-giants start with nerfed wisdom that slowly raises to a true point as time progresses, of indication of learning and becoming more of a 'person' as they surround themselves with people and start to take on something resembling an identity.
Raise the karma cost by one point.
Give half-giants a natural magic boost, to compensate for their low intelligence. They are borne of magic, after all, and while not the smartest of creatures should take to it fairly well, despite also being easily undone by it.
Don't touch any other of their stats. They're meant to be extremely strong, extremely tough, extremely slow, and extremely dumb. They're an extreme.
Make their presence more defined. If a half-giant is running, it should cause the ground to shake quietly at their passing from their extreme weight. Make it so that some places won't let half-giants rent apartments, at least by themselves.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Thanks AdamBlue for confirming both my and IAmJacksOpinion's posts in one go.

After scrolling up to re-read your last post, I shit myself. I think there is a HG sized compound bow you can get from Salarr. But a crossbow makes way more sense, IMO. Basically, a ballista. I would love it. Until HGs started OHKOing me with it. I would be less impressed at that junction.

[AdamBlue]

I don't want to give away too much information, and I'm not sure if it has been a long enough junction, but I had a half-giant character who, at one point, got very upset about a bahamet. On a whim, after defeating it and it was knocked out, I decided to make an example of it. While the small group of people whom had fled from the bahamet got quite a jolt when this character picked up the bahamet and -threw it into the room- with them, moved into the room, subdued it again, and then if I remember correctly, performed something akin to a tombstone piledriver on the massive turtle, crushing it's skull into paste.
Half-giants are often considered very warm and loving creatures, but there has been no concept ever introduced of the possible rage by one of these creatures being absolutely so insanely destructive. I wouldn't be surprised if they had themselves a mini-mul rage, a blind fury that sort of clouded their already limited judgement. While it would be a hassle to implement code-wise, from an RP perspective, why don't we see more temper tantrums from half-giants when they get upset?

[RogueGunslinger]

Half-giants. I think most problems with them is how people treat them as much as how they react to that treatment.

I like to think of HG's as creatures with very little perspective. They aren't very creative. Don't often think abstractly have a difficulty detecting things like sarcasm or nuance. They're incredibly gullible and easily persuaded but can be shockingly like an adult in quite a few situations. They talk like them. They react in the same ways. They can seem clever, with an ability to lie but no ability to know when to lie, or how to be convincing. They don't have a poker-face. They absolutely would realize how much stronger they are than everyone else though. 10 year old's can be rather mean bullies when not kept in check.

In my experience people too seldom try to manipulate half-giants. The best they seem to do is to "make friends". People aren't direct and curt enough to half-giants. A half-giant should have known a life of being "kept in check" basically from birth. They should be 100% used to and okay with people telling them what they can and can't do. I would even go as far as to say a half-giant wouldn't see someone yelling at them or demeaning them as being "mean" to them. They might find it degrading or shameful but that sort of thing should be 100% normal to them. They've been making bumbling, half-giant sized mistakes their whole lives and Armageddon is not usually a nice place with nice people who accept mistakes and pat you on the back.

If there's anything I dislike the most about half-giants it's how people treat them like giant, adorable puppies. "There there, big guy, it's okay. We all make mistakes now and then." and the giants are all "boo hoo, pity me."

Naw. That giant has had a lifetime of making mistakes and being raged at. They're used to it, everyone is used to it. Yell at them to get better and cut their stupid fucking heads off if they put you in danger one too many times.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Yeah, I agree to a point. Most HG manipulation I've seen is the same old, tired "Hey, want free food and stuff to hit big guy?" I don't think it should be more common to yell at them though. People tend to treat them nicely for a reason; if they get upset they will fucking end you. I think the last person that tried to scream at one of my HGs got their head caved in in the middle of the Gaj. As AdamBlue said, HG rage if they feel scared, threatened, confused, or angry is and should be a very real thing.

I tend to look at HGs more like dogs than anything else. Most of them are dumb, well-meaning, schmucks who just want their masters' affection. They don't have to be purely stupid, they can learn useful tricks to the point that the most practiced of them may even seem smart. But even then they're not capable of abstract thought or plans that have more than one step to them. And while most dogs are treated well and grow up to be dumb, lovable goofs, many of them are not raised so well and are mean either because they were trained to be (think guard dogs) or because they were abused and mis-treated. Honestly, I've played the gammut from lovable goofs, to pacifists, to wise protectors, to savage raiders. They all have their place in the world.

[AdamBlue]

Comparing half-giants to dogs is reasonable, I think.
How a dog acts is almost entirely based on how it's treated.
Did you spoil your dog and baby it, making it a cuddly snugglebuddy?
Did you train your dog well, making it obey commands better than most people can?
Did you abuse your dog, causing it to lash out violently whenever provoked?

Just like how a dog who tears off a babies face is put down, a half-giant who kills a man they're not supposed to kill is also put down. The difference is that Half-giants are not dogs. They do have the ability to rationalize what is 'good' and what is 'not good' better than an animal can.
Allow me to demonstrate.
If a half-giant looks into a mirror, they have the capacity to see the mirror and realize that it is, indeed, them in the mirror.
Dogs, however, as well as 98% of the entire animal kingdom excluding a few primates, dolphins, ect... Cannot distinguish between the animal in the mirror and themselves.
While that seems extremely minor, this indicates that half-giants have an understanding of their physical self and have a personal identity. They CAN look in the mirror and see themselves. They may even like their reflection quite a bit. This means higher thought.
And, assuming a half-giant is smarter than most monkeys, there are various animals in the animal kingdom who can communicate with humans. Take the endless amount of apes who have managed to learn sign-language and are able to easily communicate with human beings and express emotion, deeper thought, and even love.

See this, regarding reflections: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaMylwohL14

This, regarding higher intelligence in some animals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorgFtCqPEs