Celebrate Look Hemote!

[BadSkeelz]

I don't think command emote looks should be hemotes. But it just means I'll have to actually emote when I'm waving, or staring you down, or checking out dat ass.

Jingo raises some good points about stealthy PCs. Not sure what the solution is it how much it REALLY changes things. People who want to be antagonistic towards you will play to the code already like as not. This is not new.

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

The question was, "Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"  not, "Why does your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"

The purpose of the question was to invite you to provide some sort of justification for your opinion to counteract the arguments that have already been presented.

That it makes things marginally harder for stealthie types to get by doesn't cut it in my book, given that the prior coded advantage was unrealistic in both the IC gameworld and the OOC senses, and not when they can still randomly notice look hemote echoes, and can be mitigated by the watch command.  If the concern is regarding engaging in stealthie PVP type activities, then that these specifically are marginally harder is an even worse argument to me - is it easy for someone to get away without consequence with chopping at you with a bone sword?  Or trying to screw you over through political machinations, or whatever other PVP activities there are?

If you ask me, the solution introduced is clean, elegant and well-measured.

My answer is the same one I just gave you. Consequences don't come from npc's unless they're animated, if they are animated I would generally expect them to give an indication that my character has been noticed. But I don't really know why you've latched on to this insignificant detail anyways. It's got little to do with my actual point.

I don't think this solution is elegant at all. I fully expect some players to use it to check mdescs and pretend to not notice stealth characters until backup arrives. The incentive is certainly there now that they can without being noticed. Look echoes were an important safety net for stealth characters, now they're unreliable. This makes stealth less reliable.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think command emote looks should be hemotes. But it just means I'll have to actually emote when I'm waving, or staring you down, or checking out dat ass.

+1

Aside from that, largely ambivalent, like I usually am (at best) on this issue.

[fourTwenty]

Consequences don't come from npc's unless they're animated,

This shit right here. This shit right here nigga. This shit is fucked up. To me this comes off as awfully twinkish. You're pretty much saying you'd do shit around NPCs that you wouldn't do around PCs. ICly NPCs should be treated no different than PCs. Hell, even vNPCs need to be considered. I love love love it when Staff animate NPCs out of nowhere. And would looooooove to see someone treating an NPC like furniture only for a Templar to come strolling in and bust some ass because the "surprise!" NPC you didn't have any indication was currently being animated starts telling Lord Assface all the shit you sat here an did because you thought you were safe.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

The question was, "Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"  not, "Why does your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"

The purpose of the question was to invite you to provide some sort of justification for your opinion to counteract the arguments that have already been presented.

That it makes things marginally harder for stealthie types to get by doesn't cut it in my book, given that the prior coded advantage was unrealistic in both the IC gameworld and the OOC senses, and not when they can still randomly notice look hemote echoes, and can be mitigated by the watch command.  If the concern is regarding engaging in stealthie PVP type activities, then that these specifically are marginally harder is an even worse argument to me - is it easy for someone to get away without consequence with chopping at you with a bone sword?  Or trying to screw you over through political machinations, or whatever other PVP activities there are?

If you ask me, the solution introduced is clean, elegant and well-measured.

My answer is the same one I just gave you. Consequences don't come from npc's unless they're animated, if they are animated I would generally expect them to give an indication that my character has been noticed. But I don't really know why you've latched on to this insignificant detail anyways. It's got little to do with my actual point.

I don't think this solution is elegant at all. I fully expect some players to use it to check mdescs and pretend to not notice stealth characters until backup arrives. The incentive is certainly there now that they can without being noticed. Look echoes were an important safety net for stealth characters, now they're unreliable. This makes stealth less reliable.

Jingo, if you want to play your thieves as having automagickal eyes in the backs of their heads whilst also ignoring the line between the virtual world, NPCs and PCs for the sake of imagined gameplay balance (ie. combating what may or may not constitute bad play from other players, which in your last example may not even necessarily be), that's entirely your prerogative, and we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

As an aside, I also agree that command emotes should not be hemotes if they are now.

[Jingo]

This is nonsense. I'm not going to bother defending myself from it.

Nobody here has even addressed my point.

[BadSkeelz]

You can still use "everyone at the bar suddenly closes their containers" as a check for a sneak fail.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Finally

[Drayab]

Jingo does raise a good point.

Stealth is an odd bird. It's extremely powerful when it works, but it leaves you completely exposed when it fails, and being a sneak is dangerous. Even if you succeed 99% of the time, that 1% can get you killed, so a prudent sneak wishes they had a way to confirm that they really are hidden, but there isn't an obvious cue to let you know when hide breaks. Of course, there are methods to determine your hidden status... some of which are not very palatable from a good RP point of view.

The look echo was one of the RP acceptable ways to determine hidden status. Up until this change, one way you could tell that you were visible is because people look at the sneak, producing an echo. You could use this to 1) realize it's time to beat it or 2) find the situations where stealth is unreliable. Now it's gone, making the sneak's life more dangerous and difficult. I wouldn't say impossible, but definitely more difficult.

I still think that hemote look is an overall good for the game, because I disliked the look spam. I may be biased. I haven't played a sneak in a while.

We want sneaks to be viable, right? Maybe sneaks need some love? Personally, I don't feel very strongly about, but maybe they do.

[Thunkkin]

Now it's gone.

But it isn't gone. It's an hemote. It just makes everything more cloak and danger. Sneak must watch his/her mark. His mark might notice said sneak and then choose whether to give it away. This adds fun. And it's realistic.

[Majikal]

As a d-elf in no sneak/hide gear I was able to travel from the southern edge of the map to the northern edge of the map and remain hidden with my running mates and all of us remained hidden the entire time. Did I mention we were codedly running?  (penalties to hide)

Sneak and hide need no love. It's already better than magick more often than not.

[hyzhenhok]

@IntuitiveApathy Not sure what your argument has to do with Jingo's point. The PC/NPC reacting-to-stealth divide is still here, regardless of whether the stealthed PC knows he's been caught.

The bugbear here is that sometimes it makes sense that the sneaky character would notice he's been noticed. If i'm hiding behind a plant in your apartment and there are three other people in the room, it's not realistic for me to miss that any one of those three >looked at me. Seeing me out of the corner of your eye is already well represented by my presence in the room list and >assess, so presumably >look is indeed directly, clearly looking at someone. I think it's these situations that Jingo is complaining about; these situations are, of course, also the most dangerous and those where the sneak needs to be ready to flee the moment he's detected.

In crowded room environment, though, it makes much more sense that someone blending into the crowd would not automatically notice if he's been noticed.

There is a sliding scale between these two hypotheticals, but the code has heretofore only adequately represented one extreme. Now we've swapped the extreme to the other side. The result is we've traded one set of problems for another.

And the practical result is that stealth characters will now rely on safer, more unseemly methods for verifying their hidden status. Hardly an improvement for stealth gameplay for either party involved.

[Armaddict]

Yes, Jingo is bringing up a valid concern, but it is one of those concerns where people's playing styles will put them at odds with each other.

Stealth characters have no way of knowing if they are succeeding until 'caught'.  There's no indication if you go into rooms where it's harder.  There's very little indication of anything.  You basically type in the command and depend on it to be your lifeline in any number of scenarios, which is why it gets hated on so much; hide becomes instinct, and it takes some people some serious willpower to not type it in response to finding out they're in a bad spot and it's broken.

Likewise, there are random breaks in hide that occur, where you can be successfully hidden for a period of time, then suddenly you're exposed.


I will not complain about the hemote change, but I will say that his concerns aren't untrue.  Stealthies will have to be very careful, and non-stealthies will have to be as realistic as they can in making sure people notice they're spotted unless their character has the subtlety to not be noticed looking directly at the person following them.  Again, the watch command would be helpful in the interactions between stealthies and non-stealthies, but now it's also applicable advice in the reverse direction; if you're following someone, watch them, so you can notice if you're noticed.

[Drayab]

If I were playing a sneak, I would now only approach my mark if they are alone and immediately drop a 'watch' on them, if I had not already dropped a 'watch' on them elsewhere. I would also have to train up my watch skill to a reliable level before going on a dangerous job. I have no idea if this is even possible.

I don't really buy the realism argument because there are lots of ways that stealth is unrealistic as hyzhenhok pointed out.

As for your point, Majikal, I'm sure I don't have to point out the benefits of agility and environment on stealth skills! 

There is a big difference between d-elves running through wilderness rooms and humans sneaking down hallways. I'm not disagreeing that stealth isn't extremely powerful in most situations, mind you, but it happens that city sneaks find themselves in disadvantages environments more often than wilderness sneaks. I suspect Jingo is playing such a character right now...

[Armaddict]

city sneaks find themselves in disadvantages environments more often than wilderness sneaks. I suspect Jingo is playing such a character right now...

Sneak and hide are dependency skills.  The characters that have them utterly and completely depend on them for the situations that they, as characters, generally tend to be in.  It's why training out the reflex to use them whenever things go bad can be difficult for some people.

I can empathize with the situation.  I was thinking of it myself, I just wasn't going to react to it on this forum because I'm altogether pretty pleased with the hemote thing. I was going to figure out my own solution/change in how to do things to deal with it.

[RogueGunslinger]

There's plenty of instances where you don't know if you're stealthy or not. There are plenty of ways where stealth makes no sense to me and breaks my immesion. The code itself is diseased, and this specific "stealth nerf" is really just a slight symptom. It was a benefit that doesn't even really make sense to me OOCly. I think watch being able to detect it is a great bandaid for that one problem.

So now you don't know for sure if someone spots you, unless you catch the hemote. But there was nothing stopping people from simply not looking at you before they call their soldier friends over the way to come snag you. In that way this problem wasn't even started with this change.

[Vox]

Thanks for this addition, the jarring spam of tavern looking has been instantly sliced away (until my watch skill has improved)

But this brings up a couple things for me:

1. Is watch passively failing with a chance to improve if I don't notice someone looking at me? If not, it should. As it will become easier to raise the watch skill this can put more emphasis on Subguild/ext. Subguild Watch skill Caps.

2. I think there should be wilderness and city versions of scan like there are with sneak/hide. If someone has city sneak they should have city scan, which makes them keenly aware of people following them and humanoid dangers. An assassin without the wilderness version as well (read as wilderness sneak/hide flag) should not be able to spot various flora and fauna. Most importantly, a Ranger should not be able to ride through the twisting streets of a city and spot every skulking figure ever unless they have a subguild granting them city sneak.

Especially since any Ranger with max scan can spam 'watch shadow' and instantly PEG any skulking person forever and the skulker may be completely unaware that the person he's shadowing is WATCHING him.

Just my two 'sid though.

[Armaddict]

1. Is watch passively failing with a chance to improve if I don't notice someone looking at me? If not, it should. As it will become easier to raise the watch skill this can put more emphasis on Subguild/ext. Subguild Watch skill Caps.

I do not know for certain.  In my experience, it only goes up if being actively used, i.e. Targeting something that does something that you fail to notice.

[LauraMars]

Now that I've had some time to experience this in game, I am SO GRATEFUL.  The spam and clutter of just simple tavern sitting is drastically reduced, allowing me to focus on actual roleplay. I can only imagine how improved RPTs will be without 15-20 people all looking at each other and any newcomer that walks in.

Stealth has a lot of problems and a silly, meta use of the always unrealistic look echo to be given a ping on how successful or not your hiding is is just one of the many things wrong with it, and discussing improvements to how stealth works could probably do with its own thread.

anyway THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU STAFF

[Jingo]

It's not any more meta than how people play the game currently. With un-encryptable way communiques and mdesc seeking.

I suspect this change is going to cause meta players to even be more twinky.

Hell. Play a pickpocket and see how quickly the playerbase "goes meta" just to catch you.

[valeria]

The irony is that Laura is just about the only person who plays pickpockets.  

[LauraMars]

The playerbase "going meta" to catch a thief or otherwise behaving in stupid ways with or around stealth has been a long standing tradition in Armageddon for literally decades before this change. But valeria is right, pickpockets are totally my jam anyway.

[Asmoth]

True, I've seen magickers cast in the Gaj before and get less ridicule than one failed steal attempt in the Gaj.

Holy shit he tried to steal Amos' travel cake! Call the Templars all the militia and every badass combat PC you know! We have to kill him!

[CodeMaster]

The irony is that Laura is just about the only person who plays pickpockets.  

I'll be LauraMars and nauta's Fagin until one or both of them decides to kill me.

As to look hemote, I'm glad it was changed if only because so many people wanted it.

Just to confirm, look <direction> is still invisible, and look <direction> (squinty-eyed) is not an hemote?

[Asmoth]

The irony is that Laura is just about the only person who plays pickpockets.  

I'll be LauraMars and nauta's Fagin until one or both of them decides to kill me.

As to look hemote, I'm glad it was changed if only because so many people wanted it.

Just to confirm, look <direction> is still invisible, and look <direction> (squinty-eyed) is not an hemote?

How I read it, was that all looks are hemote, including command emotes.