Celebrate Look Hemote!

[RogueGunslinger]

Laura look!

April 2nd, 2016

(DakNyrus)
-Look changes
  -Look <character> now treated as a hemote, includes any emotes attached to the command, and can be spotted with watch the same as hemote
  -Look <direction> shows items of sufficient weight.
  -Look <direction> does not show empty description for hidden items.
-Skill Setup changes for characters
  -Fixed issue with skill set up on characters for guild/subguild/race/starting location
  -Boosted psi skills on newbies
  -Fixed issue with languages getting correctly set by race
-Fix to messaging in disarm fumbling.

(The Shade of Nyrssalin)
-Updates to forage to account for all the subguilds changes, lately.

Woot, even fixed that "Nothing" bug I mentioned.

[Lizzie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

[LauraMars]

it's....




it's real

[dravage]

Waits patiently to see Laura's reaction.

She beat me to it!

[Chettaman]

xD
This is so awesome. That is all.

lol, man. *edited to add
for real. This is awesome.

[Marauder Moe]

Command emotes also hemote?

[LauraMars]

[Vositus]

This makes me happy.

Way to go Laura and co.!

[Morrolan]

This makes me happy!

[RogueGunslinger]

Command emotes also hemote?

Yes. According to staff post, at least. Haven't tried in-game.

[Desertman]

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Staff, I don't like this idea. No one insta-looks back at me anymore. Plz 2 revert k? 

[Mazy]

No more walls of look spam during arr pee tees?

Yes please.

[Jingo]

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

Example: If I'm wearing a hood, someone can look at me, check my mdesc, report me to a templar secret-psionically without me ever knowing.

[Norcal]

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

Example: If I'm wearing a hood, someone can look at me, check my mdesc, report me to a templar secret-psionically without me ever knowing.

You can always just emote it if you really want it to be obvious. em looks at  !jingo with a smile.

[Jingo]

Yeah. But nobody will. Like everything, players will play it like secret-agent-man.

[Norcal]

Yeah. But nobody will. Like everything players will play it like secret-agent-man.

I will. Promise.

[Barsook]

OMG....YAY!

[Jingo]

Yeah. But nobody will. Like everything players will play it like secret-agent-man.

I will. Promise.

That's nice Norcal. Now get the other three-hundred and eight players to do it.

The more I think about it, the more this sucks for stealth characters.

[Thunkkin]

We're going to need at last eight polls to check how the playerbase feels about this.

[Norcal]

Yeah. But nobody will. Like everything players will play it like secret-agent-man.

I will. Promise.

That's nice Norcal. Now get the other three-hundred and eight players to do it.

The more I think about it, the more this sucks for stealth characters.

Great change by the way. Quite happy!

[Majikal]

Yeah. But nobody will. Like everything players will play it like secret-agent-man.

I will. Promise.

That's nice Norcal. Now get the other three-hundred and eight players to do it.

The more I think about it, the more this sucks for stealth characters.

All stealth characters get a skill for helping notice hemotes. See scan.

The watch skill helps you notice hemotes.

You should be watching people you're worried might notice you.

[manipura]

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

Example: If I'm wearing a hood, someone can look at me, check my mdesc, report me to a templar secret-psionically without me ever knowing.

Yeah, I thought about this too.  There are times when I specifically want it to be evident that I'm looking at someone.  Now if I am giving someone a once over, from head to toe, which implies I'm openly looking at them, they only know if they are watching me?  Or scanning perhaps as well?  
Like Norcal said though, emote is there for people who want their looks to be seen.  So I will have to look at them, then emote openly giving them a once over.

I hope people can start to remember that with look being a hemote now, adding commands that aren't hemotes is sort of awkward and doesn't make a lot of sense.
Example:

Code Select Expand

look amos (waving exuberantly)
...shouldn't be happening.

All in all though, I support this change.  So even though I've mentioned a couple nit-picky things about it...don't jump on me Laura!!

Edit: because grammar is a thing

[Jingo]

Yeah. But nobody will. Like everything players will play it like secret-agent-man.

I will. Promise.

That's nice Norcal. Now get the other three-hundred and eight players to do it.

The more I think about it, the more this sucks for stealth characters.

All stealth characters get a skill for helping notice hemotes. See scan.

The watch skill helps you notice hemotes.

You should be watching people you're worried might notice you.

Not all of them.

And even with watch and scan there is still enough uncertainty to tip the scales here.

[Jingo]

I'd be in support of adding a "look brief" that changes looks into hemotes. So it can be toggled by those that don't like the change.

[nauta]

All stealth characters get a skill for helping notice hemotes. See scan.

The watch skill helps you notice hemotes.

You should be watching people you're worried might notice you.

Re: scan picking up hemotes:

While 'watch' definitely does pick up hemotes, a little bit ago, there was some discussion on whether 'scan' does or doesn't.  I thought the conclusion from the veterans was that 'scan' does not assist in picking up on hemotes.

I confess I always thought 'scan' did, but now I'm just not sure.  The help files suggest that 'scan' does not pick up hemotes whereas 'watch' does.

I'd be keen to have 'scan' pick up on hemotes.

Re: command emotes with look.

Yeah, this is the first thing that got me -- I often slip in command emotes to look, but this is something I will just have to change my behaviour and do: l amos; em looks !amos over, with a quick up down of her head.  Not a big deal, plus it does echo to your client, e.g., l amos (licking her lips):

Code Select Expand


(Licking her lips, the awesome character looks at the tall guy.)


Hence, you know that this was hemoted, so if you want Amos to see you licking your lips, you'll just have to do a second command: em licking ^me lips, me looks at !amos.

[Beethoven]

In some ways this could actually be good for stealthies because you won't have so much "the one guy in the crowded bar with scan on looks at someone" followed by the entire rest of the room freaking out at the "suspicious" person and standing/scanning/generally making a big deal out of it.

[whitt]

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

PetPeeve

I think it should be obvious when someone follows you through the narrow doorway of your apartment and you close the door right behind you.

I think it should be obvious when you're talking to some one and they disappear in the middle of the conversation while you are looking right at them.

I think... the list is too long.

Until stealth stops being transdimensional movement and better than invisibility?  I don't think the stealth characters have much to worry about.

/PetPeeve

That said, players should be just as accountable for not reporting details about characters that they can't see as stealthy characters are about using their super-powers responsibly.

MDesc Hiding Gear for 2016!  Like if you had a hood up, facewrap on, and cloak closed... No mdesc.  Only tdesc and gear/tats/scars.

[manipura]

All stealth characters get a skill for helping notice hemotes. See scan.

The watch skill helps you notice hemotes.

You should be watching people you're worried might notice you.

While 'watch' definitely does pick up hemotes, a little bit ago, there was some discussion on whether 'scan' does or doesn't.  I thought the conclusion from the veterans was that 'scan' does not assist in picking up on hemotes.

I confess I always thought 'scan' did, but now I'm just not sure.  The help files suggest that 'scan' does not pick up hemotes whereas 'watch' does.

I'd be keen to have 'scan' pick up on hemotes.

I'm never really sure about this either.
Without going back and searching threads, I feel like a good number of people have said "No, scan doesn't pick up hemotes" but at the same time, my experience tells me (often) that hemotes can definitely be noticed without watching.  So either my scan is picking up hemotes, or hemotes just aren't that hidden in the first place.

[Beethoven]

Hemotes generally aren't foolproof, which has nothing to do with scan.

[LauraMars]

You can pick up hemotes without watching. The chance of picking up a non-watching hemote depends on how high your watch skill is.

So stealthy characters may want to invest in a guild or subguild with a high watch skill.

[LauraMars]

also:



i'm so happy

[Jingo]

You can pick up hemotes without watching. The chance of picking up a non-watching hemote depends on how high your watch skill is.

So stealthy characters may want to invest in a guild or subguild with a high watch skill.

No.

Increasing the opportunity costs for stealth characters is not a solution to a poorly thought change.

And once again. Even with watch and hemote detection, we're still dealing with high levels of uncertainty. And considering the binary nature of stealth in this game, too much uncertainty makes playing a stealth character impossible.

[LauraMars]

OMG jingo go make a thread complaining about this, this is a celebration thread!

[Barsook]

Or better yet, make a split.

[Jingo]

It's a discussion thread now.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

Example: If I'm wearing a hood, someone can look at me, check my mdesc, report me to a templar secret-psionically without me ever knowing.

I'm not sure I understand why this should be obvious?  There was no failure echo for either sneak or hide to my knowledge, which would tell a stealthie that they're not doing a great job of stealthing.  Visible echos for looks from PC's is essentially the same thing as a failure echo for stealthing, if that's what the stealthie cares about.  If anything, this now fixes that strange case where your stealthie would only really know if they were being stealthy if there were PC's around to notice them.

I can see a potential argument for getting stealth failure echos or PC looks echoing to the stealthed target maybe -some- of the time (maybe special code could be inserted to check if a PC looking at a stealthed target could trigger a specific echo for the stealthed target.  Consider this example: if your stealthy character is trying to blend into a crowd, sure they might notice someone looking at them from in front of them, especially if they're paying close attention to that person (using watch, which is still available), but how does this stealthy character know if someone has noticed them from behind?  I'd disagree with all of the time though, as the state of things before never made sense to me.

Hoods or other objects not obscuring mdescs are a different animal altogether - I don't think these two topics necessarily intersect.


stealthie edit:

Back on topic!

[valeria]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

[Jingo]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

I can't do that. I can't watch three targets. And I can't watch them before I enter the room.

[Lizzie]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

I can't do that. I can't watch three targets. And I can't watch them before I enter the room.

Why SHOULD you notice when someone is looking at you, unless they're making an effort to make sure you notice that they're looking? In any given situation involving a group of people, it's very unlikely that you will notice someone looking at you unless you make eye-contact with them or unless they're blatantly staring.

In Armageddon, the blatant staring/eye contact situation is resolved by surrounding the "look" command with emotes. If they aren't using emotes when they look at you, then there's no reason why you should notice that they looked. It's not a stare, or a glare, or a squint. It's just a look until they indicate otherwise.

They might look - and notice that your character has three arms. That's when they should be making it obvious that they saw you (or pretend ICly that they didn't).

Do you notice when all those NPCs and VNPCs look at you? No? Well then how do you know they didn't? How does your character know, ICly, that those NPCs and VNPCs didn't look at him? Answer: He doesn't. Now, the code reflects the reality of the game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

[Jingo]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

I can't do that. I can't watch three targets. And I can't watch them before I enter the room.

Why SHOULD you notice when someone is looking at you, unless they're making an effort to make sure you notice that they're looking? In any given situation involving a group of people, it's very unlikely that you will notice someone looking at you unless you make eye-contact with them or unless they're blatantly staring.

In Armageddon, the blatant staring/eye contact situation is resolved by surrounding the "look" command with emotes. If they aren't using emotes when they look at you, then there's no reason why you should notice that they looked. It's not a stare, or a glare, or a squint. It's just a look until they indicate otherwise.

They might look - and notice that your character has three arms. That's when they should be making it obvious that they saw you (or pretend ICly that they didn't).

Do you notice when all those NPCs and VNPCs look at you? No? Well then how do you know they didn't? How does your character know, ICly, that those NPCs and VNPCs didn't look at him? Answer: He doesn't. Now, the code reflects the reality of the game.

We do actually have a command that's equivalent to a quick glance. It's called assess. Which I guarantee nobody will use again.

And why should they get a detailed description of my character with just a look at them? It's not just a look, it's a complete rundown of my character's physical representation. Good players might emote a long-study of a character to commit the details to memory, but most won't.

And yes, in the real world it's easy to tell if someone is looking at you while they're in your field of view. Or even if they turn their head as you enter a room.

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

[Asmoth]

He was using the code to his advantage, I have a habit of looking at people trying to be stealthy on habit as well.  So I would let the shitty sneak know he was seen inadvertently.  Now do I think the benefit of that for the shitty sneak is moreso than the benefit of me walking into a room without...

Dude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.

Two seconds after I walk in?  Not a chance in hell.

[Jingo]

Yes it is a coded advantage. And one we have only just discovered it seems. I contend that it's enough of a change to put sneaks at a disadvantage too.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

The question was, "Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"  not, "Why does your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"

The purpose of the question was to invite you to provide some sort of justification for your opinion to counteract the arguments that have already been presented.

That it makes things marginally harder for stealthie types to get by doesn't cut it in my book, given that the prior coded advantage was unrealistic in both the IC gameworld and the OOC senses, and not when they can still randomly notice look hemote echoes, and can be mitigated by the watch command.  If the concern is regarding engaging in stealthie PVP type activities, then that these specifically are marginally harder is an even worse argument to me - is it easy for someone to get away without consequence with chopping at you with a bone sword?  Or trying to screw you over through political machinations, or whatever other PVP activities there are?

If you ask me, the solution introduced is clean, elegant and well-measured.

[valeria]

I'm confused why assess wouldn't still useful?  It gives different information than look.  Like weight, height, and age, relatively speaking.  And look gives you the full mdesc, which you don't get from assess.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't think command emote looks should be hemotes. But it just means I'll have to actually emote when I'm waving, or staring you down, or checking out dat ass.

Jingo raises some good points about stealthy PCs. Not sure what the solution is it how much it REALLY changes things. People who want to be antagonistic towards you will play to the code already like as not. This is not new.

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

The question was, "Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"  not, "Why does your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"

The purpose of the question was to invite you to provide some sort of justification for your opinion to counteract the arguments that have already been presented.

That it makes things marginally harder for stealthie types to get by doesn't cut it in my book, given that the prior coded advantage was unrealistic in both the IC gameworld and the OOC senses, and not when they can still randomly notice look hemote echoes, and can be mitigated by the watch command.  If the concern is regarding engaging in stealthie PVP type activities, then that these specifically are marginally harder is an even worse argument to me - is it easy for someone to get away without consequence with chopping at you with a bone sword?  Or trying to screw you over through political machinations, or whatever other PVP activities there are?

If you ask me, the solution introduced is clean, elegant and well-measured.

My answer is the same one I just gave you. Consequences don't come from npc's unless they're animated, if they are animated I would generally expect them to give an indication that my character has been noticed. But I don't really know why you've latched on to this insignificant detail anyways. It's got little to do with my actual point.

I don't think this solution is elegant at all. I fully expect some players to use it to check mdescs and pretend to not notice stealth characters until backup arrives. The incentive is certainly there now that they can without being noticed. Look echoes were an important safety net for stealth characters, now they're unreliable. This makes stealth less reliable.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think command emote looks should be hemotes. But it just means I'll have to actually emote when I'm waving, or staring you down, or checking out dat ass.

+1

Aside from that, largely ambivalent, like I usually am (at best) on this issue.

[fourTwenty]

Consequences don't come from npc's unless they're animated,

This shit right here. This shit right here nigga. This shit is fucked up. To me this comes off as awfully twinkish. You're pretty much saying you'd do shit around NPCs that you wouldn't do around PCs. ICly NPCs should be treated no different than PCs. Hell, even vNPCs need to be considered. I love love love it when Staff animate NPCs out of nowhere. And would looooooove to see someone treating an NPC like furniture only for a Templar to come strolling in and bust some ass because the "surprise!" NPC you didn't have any indication was currently being animated starts telling Lord Assface all the shit you sat here an did because you thought you were safe.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

The question was, "Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"  not, "Why does your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"

The purpose of the question was to invite you to provide some sort of justification for your opinion to counteract the arguments that have already been presented.

That it makes things marginally harder for stealthie types to get by doesn't cut it in my book, given that the prior coded advantage was unrealistic in both the IC gameworld and the OOC senses, and not when they can still randomly notice look hemote echoes, and can be mitigated by the watch command.  If the concern is regarding engaging in stealthie PVP type activities, then that these specifically are marginally harder is an even worse argument to me - is it easy for someone to get away without consequence with chopping at you with a bone sword?  Or trying to screw you over through political machinations, or whatever other PVP activities there are?

If you ask me, the solution introduced is clean, elegant and well-measured.

My answer is the same one I just gave you. Consequences don't come from npc's unless they're animated, if they are animated I would generally expect them to give an indication that my character has been noticed. But I don't really know why you've latched on to this insignificant detail anyways. It's got little to do with my actual point.

I don't think this solution is elegant at all. I fully expect some players to use it to check mdescs and pretend to not notice stealth characters until backup arrives. The incentive is certainly there now that they can without being noticed. Look echoes were an important safety net for stealth characters, now they're unreliable. This makes stealth less reliable.

Jingo, if you want to play your thieves as having automagickal eyes in the backs of their heads whilst also ignoring the line between the virtual world, NPCs and PCs for the sake of imagined gameplay balance (ie. combating what may or may not constitute bad play from other players, which in your last example may not even necessarily be), that's entirely your prerogative, and we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

As an aside, I also agree that command emotes should not be hemotes if they are now.

[Jingo]

This is nonsense. I'm not going to bother defending myself from it.

Nobody here has even addressed my point.

[BadSkeelz]

You can still use "everyone at the bar suddenly closes their containers" as a check for a sneak fail.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Finally

[Drayab]

Jingo does raise a good point.

Stealth is an odd bird. It's extremely powerful when it works, but it leaves you completely exposed when it fails, and being a sneak is dangerous. Even if you succeed 99% of the time, that 1% can get you killed, so a prudent sneak wishes they had a way to confirm that they really are hidden, but there isn't an obvious cue to let you know when hide breaks. Of course, there are methods to determine your hidden status... some of which are not very palatable from a good RP point of view.

The look echo was one of the RP acceptable ways to determine hidden status. Up until this change, one way you could tell that you were visible is because people look at the sneak, producing an echo. You could use this to 1) realize it's time to beat it or 2) find the situations where stealth is unreliable. Now it's gone, making the sneak's life more dangerous and difficult. I wouldn't say impossible, but definitely more difficult.

I still think that hemote look is an overall good for the game, because I disliked the look spam. I may be biased. I haven't played a sneak in a while.

We want sneaks to be viable, right? Maybe sneaks need some love? Personally, I don't feel very strongly about, but maybe they do.

[Thunkkin]

Now it's gone.

But it isn't gone. It's an hemote. It just makes everything more cloak and danger. Sneak must watch his/her mark. His mark might notice said sneak and then choose whether to give it away. This adds fun. And it's realistic.

[Majikal]

As a d-elf in no sneak/hide gear I was able to travel from the southern edge of the map to the northern edge of the map and remain hidden with my running mates and all of us remained hidden the entire time. Did I mention we were codedly running?  (penalties to hide)

Sneak and hide need no love. It's already better than magick more often than not.

[hyzhenhok]

@IntuitiveApathy Not sure what your argument has to do with Jingo's point. The PC/NPC reacting-to-stealth divide is still here, regardless of whether the stealthed PC knows he's been caught.

The bugbear here is that sometimes it makes sense that the sneaky character would notice he's been noticed. If i'm hiding behind a plant in your apartment and there are three other people in the room, it's not realistic for me to miss that any one of those three >looked at me. Seeing me out of the corner of your eye is already well represented by my presence in the room list and >assess, so presumably >look is indeed directly, clearly looking at someone. I think it's these situations that Jingo is complaining about; these situations are, of course, also the most dangerous and those where the sneak needs to be ready to flee the moment he's detected.

In crowded room environment, though, it makes much more sense that someone blending into the crowd would not automatically notice if he's been noticed.

There is a sliding scale between these two hypotheticals, but the code has heretofore only adequately represented one extreme. Now we've swapped the extreme to the other side. The result is we've traded one set of problems for another.

And the practical result is that stealth characters will now rely on safer, more unseemly methods for verifying their hidden status. Hardly an improvement for stealth gameplay for either party involved.

[Armaddict]

Yes, Jingo is bringing up a valid concern, but it is one of those concerns where people's playing styles will put them at odds with each other.

Stealth characters have no way of knowing if they are succeeding until 'caught'.  There's no indication if you go into rooms where it's harder.  There's very little indication of anything.  You basically type in the command and depend on it to be your lifeline in any number of scenarios, which is why it gets hated on so much; hide becomes instinct, and it takes some people some serious willpower to not type it in response to finding out they're in a bad spot and it's broken.

Likewise, there are random breaks in hide that occur, where you can be successfully hidden for a period of time, then suddenly you're exposed.


I will not complain about the hemote change, but I will say that his concerns aren't untrue.  Stealthies will have to be very careful, and non-stealthies will have to be as realistic as they can in making sure people notice they're spotted unless their character has the subtlety to not be noticed looking directly at the person following them.  Again, the watch command would be helpful in the interactions between stealthies and non-stealthies, but now it's also applicable advice in the reverse direction; if you're following someone, watch them, so you can notice if you're noticed.

[Drayab]

If I were playing a sneak, I would now only approach my mark if they are alone and immediately drop a 'watch' on them, if I had not already dropped a 'watch' on them elsewhere. I would also have to train up my watch skill to a reliable level before going on a dangerous job. I have no idea if this is even possible.

I don't really buy the realism argument because there are lots of ways that stealth is unrealistic as hyzhenhok pointed out.

As for your point, Majikal, I'm sure I don't have to point out the benefits of agility and environment on stealth skills! 

There is a big difference between d-elves running through wilderness rooms and humans sneaking down hallways. I'm not disagreeing that stealth isn't extremely powerful in most situations, mind you, but it happens that city sneaks find themselves in disadvantages environments more often than wilderness sneaks. I suspect Jingo is playing such a character right now...

[Armaddict]

city sneaks find themselves in disadvantages environments more often than wilderness sneaks. I suspect Jingo is playing such a character right now...

Sneak and hide are dependency skills.  The characters that have them utterly and completely depend on them for the situations that they, as characters, generally tend to be in.  It's why training out the reflex to use them whenever things go bad can be difficult for some people.

I can empathize with the situation.  I was thinking of it myself, I just wasn't going to react to it on this forum because I'm altogether pretty pleased with the hemote thing. I was going to figure out my own solution/change in how to do things to deal with it.

[RogueGunslinger]

There's plenty of instances where you don't know if you're stealthy or not. There are plenty of ways where stealth makes no sense to me and breaks my immesion. The code itself is diseased, and this specific "stealth nerf" is really just a slight symptom. It was a benefit that doesn't even really make sense to me OOCly. I think watch being able to detect it is a great bandaid for that one problem.

So now you don't know for sure if someone spots you, unless you catch the hemote. But there was nothing stopping people from simply not looking at you before they call their soldier friends over the way to come snag you. In that way this problem wasn't even started with this change.

[Vox]

Thanks for this addition, the jarring spam of tavern looking has been instantly sliced away (until my watch skill has improved)

But this brings up a couple things for me:

1. Is watch passively failing with a chance to improve if I don't notice someone looking at me? If not, it should. As it will become easier to raise the watch skill this can put more emphasis on Subguild/ext. Subguild Watch skill Caps.

2. I think there should be wilderness and city versions of scan like there are with sneak/hide. If someone has city sneak they should have city scan, which makes them keenly aware of people following them and humanoid dangers. An assassin without the wilderness version as well (read as wilderness sneak/hide flag) should not be able to spot various flora and fauna. Most importantly, a Ranger should not be able to ride through the twisting streets of a city and spot every skulking figure ever unless they have a subguild granting them city sneak.

Especially since any Ranger with max scan can spam 'watch shadow' and instantly PEG any skulking person forever and the skulker may be completely unaware that the person he's shadowing is WATCHING him.

Just my two 'sid though.

[Armaddict]

1. Is watch passively failing with a chance to improve if I don't notice someone looking at me? If not, it should. As it will become easier to raise the watch skill this can put more emphasis on Subguild/ext. Subguild Watch skill Caps.

I do not know for certain.  In my experience, it only goes up if being actively used, i.e. Targeting something that does something that you fail to notice.

[LauraMars]

Now that I've had some time to experience this in game, I am SO GRATEFUL.  The spam and clutter of just simple tavern sitting is drastically reduced, allowing me to focus on actual roleplay. I can only imagine how improved RPTs will be without 15-20 people all looking at each other and any newcomer that walks in.

Stealth has a lot of problems and a silly, meta use of the always unrealistic look echo to be given a ping on how successful or not your hiding is is just one of the many things wrong with it, and discussing improvements to how stealth works could probably do with its own thread.

anyway THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU STAFF

[Jingo]

It's not any more meta than how people play the game currently. With un-encryptable way communiques and mdesc seeking.

I suspect this change is going to cause meta players to even be more twinky.

Hell. Play a pickpocket and see how quickly the playerbase "goes meta" just to catch you.

[valeria]

The irony is that Laura is just about the only person who plays pickpockets.  

[LauraMars]

The playerbase "going meta" to catch a thief or otherwise behaving in stupid ways with or around stealth has been a long standing tradition in Armageddon for literally decades before this change. But valeria is right, pickpockets are totally my jam anyway.

[Asmoth]

True, I've seen magickers cast in the Gaj before and get less ridicule than one failed steal attempt in the Gaj.

Holy shit he tried to steal Amos' travel cake! Call the Templars all the militia and every badass combat PC you know! We have to kill him!

[CodeMaster]

The irony is that Laura is just about the only person who plays pickpockets.  

I'll be LauraMars and nauta's Fagin until one or both of them decides to kill me.

As to look hemote, I'm glad it was changed if only because so many people wanted it.

Just to confirm, look <direction> is still invisible, and look <direction> (squinty-eyed) is not an hemote?

[Asmoth]

The irony is that Laura is just about the only person who plays pickpockets.  

I'll be LauraMars and nauta's Fagin until one or both of them decides to kill me.

As to look hemote, I'm glad it was changed if only because so many people wanted it.

Just to confirm, look <direction> is still invisible, and look <direction> (squinty-eyed) is not an hemote?

How I read it, was that all looks are hemote, including command emotes.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Code Select Expand


look npc
(You look up at the <npc redacted>.)

>look npc (squinting)
(Squinting, you look up at the <npc redacted>.)


All looks at N/PCs are hemotes.

Looking in a direction never echoed, and probably still doesn't.

[LauraMars]

Looking in a direction or at an item was never even a hemote, it was just invisible, unless you appended a command emote to it.

So >look east is invisible, nobody knows you did it. >look backpack is invisible, nobody knows you did it.

>look east (with a glance over her shoulder) or >look backpack (inspecting it carefully) will send the non-hemotes:

With a glance over her shoulder, the tressy-tressed woman looks east.
Inspecting it carefully, the tressy-tressed woman looks at a bone-studded backpack.

These command-emote appended look actions are still not hemotes.

[Bogre]

Code Select Expand


look npc
(You look up at the <npc redacted>.)

>look npc (squinting)
(Squinting, you look up at the <npc redacted>.)


All looks at N/PCs are hemotes.

Looking in a direction never echoed, and probably still doesn't.

look east (squinting)

would echo

[Asmoth]

As an opposing view to Jingo's "I don't like this" view.

I have had times before where a sneaky character had succeeded in a sneak into my room.  But was foiled by typing Look Asmoth and I caught the echo.

So now I won't have that luxery either.  Seems fair for me to avoid all that spam.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

As far as this change; I'm 100% team Jingo on this one. It is bad.

Considering that the chief complaint against look echoes was that it was spammy, this would've been the ideal way to do it:

I'd be in support of adding a "look brief" that changes looks into hemotes. So it can be toggled by those that don't like the change.

Like the pooping mounts updates. But for looks. Turn it off when you don't care, or on when you do.

As someone who plays a lot of sneakies, there are tons of situations you get into where the looks would realistically be noticed. Anyone who has played an unclanned youngster of any main guild knows what it's like to turn every head and close every container in the room. (Sorry guys, but it's not just us sneakies being meta. You guys can be pretty awful yourselves sometimes.) But there are other situations where you might stumble upon an interesting conversation being had on the city street and stop to listen to two or three people talk. Sure, you can't watch a whole room, but you can easily watch a whole group - and many times that's all your PC is doing when they're skulking about anyhow. They don't really care about the Bynners at the dragon-etched table. They're watching the merchant at table 4.

Unfortunately there's not really a good way to accomplish this unless there was a "stand with <target>" command that let you behave like you were standing around an adhoc table, and then watching one person at the "table" (physical table, or adhoc group) allowed you to behave like you were watching everyone. Sort of like how follow interacts with listening. That's a good idea, but a complete derail... Even then it would be up to the players to use it appropriately...

The irony is that Laura is just about the only person who plays pickpockets.  

Yes, except no. Just.... nooooo.... Honestly, wtf? 

Consequences don't come from npc's unless they're animated,

... You're pretty much saying you'd do shit around NPCs that you wouldn't do around PCs. ICly NPCs should be treated no different than PCs. Hell, even vNPCs need to be considered. ...

I take it then that you treat all NPCs, or even vNPCs, the same as PCs and vice versa? So, when you're sitting in the bar and you feel a tugging at your pocket, you behave exactly the same as when you're walking through the Bazaar and you get that random echo to the same effect? Or when you're in the Gaj and a hooded figure walks in, you treat it the same as some of the seedier room echoes about hooded figures that you see in the same location?  This is actually just a rhetorical question, because the answer is that you don't. You don't, I don't, no one does. I'm not saying that's bad; treating PCs, NPCs, and vNPCs the same isn't black and white, it's a sliding grey scale ranging from "negligible" to "obvious abuse." But to your original assertion; NO, sneaking around NPCs isn't that bad when you consider that failing a single sneak check around a PC can create a social stigma that may take you IG months, or years, to recover from. The latter is far worse and more unrealistic than the former.

Yes, stealth is OP in this game. If there were a petition stating that apartment doors or compound gates should be 100% impossible to shadow someone through, I would sign it. But, much like magick, it's an OP mechanic that is counter-balanced by social stigmas. And like mages, whether or not you like sneakies or play sneakies yourself at all, they're an important part of this game, and this change is problematic to playing that role.

[Norcal]

If I am using wilderness sneak and I try to get past a drov beetle or a carru,  they have -never- let me know that my sneak has failed by looking at me.  They just attack me and try to kill me. I get no warning. They just attack.

So why should city sneak be any different?  It is already over powered and if you are detected in a bar no one is gong to attack you to kill you. You might get crim flagged, but you will not get carrued.

Taverns are crowded, busy and noisy places, even if there are no PCs present. If I was in a pub here and caught someone obviously trying to sneak and do something illegal, I would certainly  not only look, but also say or do something to stop the person. That is a point of RP, that players now need to be accountable for. However, putting up with walls of spam and spaghetti western look sequences just so that sneaky types can maintain superhuman abilities in a tavern, is wrong.  Kudos to staff for the change.

[Asmoth]

 Next character concept, a ranger who joins the aod and uses the crim code to murder everyone who fails a sneak check with guards...

Yes, that is silly, but so I comparing beetles to people.  The npc in the rooms I train stealing on don't look at me either when I fail a steal checks they just run away screaming their heads off.

[RogueGunslinger]

This "problem" was around BEFORE this change. All someone had to do is not look at your character to let them know you see them. Really not getting people who are against it.. However, making it a toggle or no-save would be perfectly fine with me.

[hyzhenhok]

This "problem" was around BEFORE this change. All someone had to do is not look at your character to let them know you see them. Really not getting people who are against it.. However, making it a toggle or no-save would be perfectly fine with me.

This is where the conversation overlaps with the mdesc hiding stuff. Previously, the person had a choice: you could get the mdesc and equipment list of the stealthed character, but only by tipping off the fact that you'd seen them. The stealthed character would know when their identity was likely compromised.

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for stealth characters who try to live Batman-esque secret double lives, but it probably didn't need to get harder than it already was.

[nauta]

I realize I used 'look' a lot as a 'Hi-I'm-Ready-To-RP-You-Can-Stop-Spam-Walking-Or-Double-Back' trick, a lot.

Problem solved:

Code Select Expand


alias looka em looks alive.


[Delirium]

Wrong thread. Why are there two threads??

[Jingo]

Failed peek attempts should be hemotes.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Failed peek attempts should be hemotes.

Pretty sure they are. I think you can potentially even notice successful peeks, but not positive.