Celebrate Look Hemote!

[nauta]

All stealth characters get a skill for helping notice hemotes. See scan.

The watch skill helps you notice hemotes.

You should be watching people you're worried might notice you.

Re: scan picking up hemotes:

While 'watch' definitely does pick up hemotes, a little bit ago, there was some discussion on whether 'scan' does or doesn't.  I thought the conclusion from the veterans was that 'scan' does not assist in picking up on hemotes.

I confess I always thought 'scan' did, but now I'm just not sure.  The help files suggest that 'scan' does not pick up hemotes whereas 'watch' does.

I'd be keen to have 'scan' pick up on hemotes.

Re: command emotes with look.

Yeah, this is the first thing that got me -- I often slip in command emotes to look, but this is something I will just have to change my behaviour and do: l amos; em looks !amos over, with a quick up down of her head.  Not a big deal, plus it does echo to your client, e.g., l amos (licking her lips):

Code Select Expand


(Licking her lips, the awesome character looks at the tall guy.)


Hence, you know that this was hemoted, so if you want Amos to see you licking your lips, you'll just have to do a second command: em licking ^me lips, me looks at !amos.

[Beethoven]

In some ways this could actually be good for stealthies because you won't have so much "the one guy in the crowded bar with scan on looks at someone" followed by the entire rest of the room freaking out at the "suspicious" person and standing/scanning/generally making a big deal out of it.

[whitt]

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

PetPeeve

I think it should be obvious when someone follows you through the narrow doorway of your apartment and you close the door right behind you.

I think it should be obvious when you're talking to some one and they disappear in the middle of the conversation while you are looking right at them.

I think... the list is too long.

Until stealth stops being transdimensional movement and better than invisibility?  I don't think the stealth characters have much to worry about.

/PetPeeve

That said, players should be just as accountable for not reporting details about characters that they can't see as stealthy characters are about using their super-powers responsibly.

MDesc Hiding Gear for 2016!  Like if you had a hood up, facewrap on, and cloak closed... No mdesc.  Only tdesc and gear/tats/scars.

[manipura]

All stealth characters get a skill for helping notice hemotes. See scan.

The watch skill helps you notice hemotes.

You should be watching people you're worried might notice you.

While 'watch' definitely does pick up hemotes, a little bit ago, there was some discussion on whether 'scan' does or doesn't.  I thought the conclusion from the veterans was that 'scan' does not assist in picking up on hemotes.

I confess I always thought 'scan' did, but now I'm just not sure.  The help files suggest that 'scan' does not pick up hemotes whereas 'watch' does.

I'd be keen to have 'scan' pick up on hemotes.

I'm never really sure about this either.
Without going back and searching threads, I feel like a good number of people have said "No, scan doesn't pick up hemotes" but at the same time, my experience tells me (often) that hemotes can definitely be noticed without watching.  So either my scan is picking up hemotes, or hemotes just aren't that hidden in the first place.

[Beethoven]

Hemotes generally aren't foolproof, which has nothing to do with scan.

[LauraMars]

You can pick up hemotes without watching. The chance of picking up a non-watching hemote depends on how high your watch skill is.

So stealthy characters may want to invest in a guild or subguild with a high watch skill.

[LauraMars]

also:



i'm so happy

[Jingo]

You can pick up hemotes without watching. The chance of picking up a non-watching hemote depends on how high your watch skill is.

So stealthy characters may want to invest in a guild or subguild with a high watch skill.

No.

Increasing the opportunity costs for stealth characters is not a solution to a poorly thought change.

And once again. Even with watch and hemote detection, we're still dealing with high levels of uncertainty. And considering the binary nature of stealth in this game, too much uncertainty makes playing a stealth character impossible.

[LauraMars]

OMG jingo go make a thread complaining about this, this is a celebration thread!

[Barsook]

Or better yet, make a split.

[Jingo]

It's a discussion thread now.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

Example: If I'm wearing a hood, someone can look at me, check my mdesc, report me to a templar secret-psionically without me ever knowing.

I'm not sure I understand why this should be obvious?  There was no failure echo for either sneak or hide to my knowledge, which would tell a stealthie that they're not doing a great job of stealthing.  Visible echos for looks from PC's is essentially the same thing as a failure echo for stealthing, if that's what the stealthie cares about.  If anything, this now fixes that strange case where your stealthie would only really know if they were being stealthy if there were PC's around to notice them.

I can see a potential argument for getting stealth failure echos or PC looks echoing to the stealthed target maybe -some- of the time (maybe special code could be inserted to check if a PC looking at a stealthed target could trigger a specific echo for the stealthed target.  Consider this example: if your stealthy character is trying to blend into a crowd, sure they might notice someone looking at them from in front of them, especially if they're paying close attention to that person (using watch, which is still available), but how does this stealthy character know if someone has noticed them from behind?  I'd disagree with all of the time though, as the state of things before never made sense to me.

Hoods or other objects not obscuring mdescs are a different animal altogether - I don't think these two topics necessarily intersect.


stealthie edit:

Back on topic!

[valeria]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

[Jingo]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

I can't do that. I can't watch three targets. And I can't watch them before I enter the room.

[Lizzie]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

I can't do that. I can't watch three targets. And I can't watch them before I enter the room.

Why SHOULD you notice when someone is looking at you, unless they're making an effort to make sure you notice that they're looking? In any given situation involving a group of people, it's very unlikely that you will notice someone looking at you unless you make eye-contact with them or unless they're blatantly staring.

In Armageddon, the blatant staring/eye contact situation is resolved by surrounding the "look" command with emotes. If they aren't using emotes when they look at you, then there's no reason why you should notice that they looked. It's not a stare, or a glare, or a squint. It's just a look until they indicate otherwise.

They might look - and notice that your character has three arms. That's when they should be making it obvious that they saw you (or pretend ICly that they didn't).

Do you notice when all those NPCs and VNPCs look at you? No? Well then how do you know they didn't? How does your character know, ICly, that those NPCs and VNPCs didn't look at him? Answer: He doesn't. Now, the code reflects the reality of the game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

[Jingo]

I'm sure this is going to have the consequence of improving everyone's watch skills, as well.  Because more fails floating around = more chances to improve.

Anyway, if you're a sneaky who walks up to someone and says "don't look at me bro" the only thing you have to do to make sure they don't sneak in a peek is > watch (target)

I can't do that. I can't watch three targets. And I can't watch them before I enter the room.

Why SHOULD you notice when someone is looking at you, unless they're making an effort to make sure you notice that they're looking? In any given situation involving a group of people, it's very unlikely that you will notice someone looking at you unless you make eye-contact with them or unless they're blatantly staring.

In Armageddon, the blatant staring/eye contact situation is resolved by surrounding the "look" command with emotes. If they aren't using emotes when they look at you, then there's no reason why you should notice that they looked. It's not a stare, or a glare, or a squint. It's just a look until they indicate otherwise.

They might look - and notice that your character has three arms. That's when they should be making it obvious that they saw you (or pretend ICly that they didn't).

Do you notice when all those NPCs and VNPCs look at you? No? Well then how do you know they didn't? How does your character know, ICly, that those NPCs and VNPCs didn't look at him? Answer: He doesn't. Now, the code reflects the reality of the game.

We do actually have a command that's equivalent to a quick glance. It's called assess. Which I guarantee nobody will use again.

And why should they get a detailed description of my character with just a look at them? It's not just a look, it's a complete rundown of my character's physical representation. Good players might emote a long-study of a character to commit the details to memory, but most won't.

And yes, in the real world it's easy to tell if someone is looking at you while they're in your field of view. Or even if they turn their head as you enter a room.

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

[Jingo]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

[Asmoth]

He was using the code to his advantage, I have a habit of looking at people trying to be stealthy on habit as well.  So I would let the shitty sneak know he was seen inadvertently.  Now do I think the benefit of that for the shitty sneak is moreso than the benefit of me walking into a room without...

Dude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.
Otherdude looks at you.

Two seconds after I walk in?  Not a chance in hell.

[Jingo]

Yes it is a coded advantage. And one we have only just discovered it seems. I contend that it's enough of a change to put sneaks at a disadvantage too.

[IntuitiveApathy]

It's pretty simple.

If I stealth into a room and everyone looks at me, I know the gig is up. I don't have that luxury anymore. I think in most cases it should be pretty obvious too with the way head-turning reactions work.

Under the new change, I stealth into a room. Three people look at me but I don't notice I'm noticed because they're super sneaky too (even without stealth skills). My character doesn't know they've been noticed even though I turned the heads of the entire pc population of the room.

Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?

Because staff arn't animating npc's 24/7 to notice if I'm failing at being a sneak.

You're avoiding the actual arguments here Jingo, stop trying to be stealthy, because we can see you.

The question was, "Why should your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"  not, "Why does your character have an advantage in rooms where there are PC's vs. where there are not?"

The purpose of the question was to invite you to provide some sort of justification for your opinion to counteract the arguments that have already been presented.

That it makes things marginally harder for stealthie types to get by doesn't cut it in my book, given that the prior coded advantage was unrealistic in both the IC gameworld and the OOC senses, and not when they can still randomly notice look hemote echoes, and can be mitigated by the watch command.  If the concern is regarding engaging in stealthie PVP type activities, then that these specifically are marginally harder is an even worse argument to me - is it easy for someone to get away without consequence with chopping at you with a bone sword?  Or trying to screw you over through political machinations, or whatever other PVP activities there are?

If you ask me, the solution introduced is clean, elegant and well-measured.

[valeria]

I'm confused why assess wouldn't still useful?  It gives different information than look.  Like weight, height, and age, relatively speaking.  And look gives you the full mdesc, which you don't get from assess.