Should Extended Mundane Subguilds be Karma-locked?

[LauraMars]

The game should definitely not be fair, or people start to feel too safe. Stories stagnate, people get bored, the heart-pounding terror of losing your character starts to be replaced by complacence and friendliness.

I think a lot of the relative fairness or unfairness of the gameworld at current has more to do with culture than code, though.

[Iiyola]

Blurb

All of this.

[BadSkeelz]

Blurb

All of this.

i.e. "Let's make it so stats above Very Good were dependent on Karma."

Limiting lower-karma or newer players to fundamentally restricted characters without any sort of in-character justification for those restrictions does not make for a good game. It makes for an unfair one, but not for the reasons you ladies (and whatever wiz is) think you're championing.

Armageddon is "unfair" because the harshness of the gameworld (monsters that not every PC should be tangling with) and of the social sphere (100 day warrior getting executed by templar for being a derp). These are good, thematically justified sources of unfairness. They give our characters something to struggle against. But they're not equatable to the subguild-based restrictions and limitations that arise when you hold standard and Extended subguilds up next to each other.

[Delirium]

I think a lot of the relative fairness or unfairness of the gameworld at current has more to do with culture than code, though.

I agree with this.

[RogueGunslinger]

When people are talking about "fair" in this context, I'm pretty sure they mean OOCly fair.

[wizturbo]

When people are talking about "fair" in this context, I'm pretty sure they mean OOCly fair.

They're inter-connected.  You OOCly trust a player to play characteres who ICly have massive advantages over others.

That can come from Karma, Special Apps, or applying for role calls like the oh-so-sweet, oh-so-juicy Guild Crew Leader role up right now...  Oh my god I'm so tempted to apply.  But alas, I think my current boots fit nicely.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's actually not what I mean. I mean that people are using "fair" to illustrate that newer players should have all the same opportunities that vets do until proven that they can't handle it.

I'm not saying that's an especially good idea, but people aren't asking for a half-giant to be "fair" in the sense that a 1day HG can kill a 100 day ranger. They're asking to be given a fair opportunity to prove they can play them.

Edit: Which is why I was arguing that noobs CAN have the same opportunities, they just have to spec-app.

[Delirium]

They do have a fair opportunity to prove they can play them. Should it be quick and easy? Arguable. Armageddon has a steep learning curve and lots of documentation.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree. I actually think the system as it is very fair to new players in this regard.

[wizturbo]

I agree. I actually think the system as it is very fair to new players in this regard.

So do I.  Back in my day, after walking uphill in the snow for ten miles, we didn't get karma for longevity alone.  We also didn't have any guidelines to follow, we just had to hope staff noticed us.

All kidding aside though, the Karma system seems much more fair, and much less arbitrary than it was ten years ago.  It's always going to have flaws, all systems do, but there are other systems in place to help address them.  The special application system is there specifically to let no karma, or low-karma players try out stuff that normally wouldn't be available to them.  This system gets ignored so often on the GDB, but it's the primary way for people to prove their capable of handling karma roles.

[hyzhenhok]

What on earth does the IC theme of an unfair world have to do with OOC unfairness that has no logical basis behind it. They are not connected.

The excuses you guys are coming up with to protect an indefensible status quo never cease to amaze.

[BadSkeelz]

What on earth does the IC theme of an unfair world have to do with OOC unfairness that has no logical basis behind it. They are not connected.

The excuses you guys are coming up with to protect an indefensible status quo never cease to amaze.

Old players just scared cause old doesn't mean as much anymore.

Or wouldn't.

Going back to "extended subs are available through special apps," I ask: regardless of how high or how low the hoop is, do we really benefit from making people jump through it?

[LauraMars]

I'm not worried that 'old doesn't mean as much any more' (lol, what does that even mean).  I'm worried that the game doesn't feel as brutal as it once did and I started playing because I loved that  brutality.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread though, because I don't think it has anything to do with extended subguilds or how much karma they cost or don't cost.

or maybe we've already discussed it recently and my hamster-like attention span has already forgotten

[evilcabbage]

adhira, please post "I could give a shit about fair."

so i can have a new sig.

[hyzhenhok]

If we are going to say free access to extended subguilds would make the game too easy for new players, we have to ask:

• Why exactly are veterans being given a less brutal experience? Why should a perk of veteran status be special exclusion from the game's core theme?
• What makes extended subguilds special? The ranger guild should probably be karma locked if we're justifying locking extended subguilds because they make the game easier.
• What other quality-of-life improvements the game has seen in the last 5 years, which have the effect of making the game less harsh, should be rolled back? The water tun in the Byn?
• Should we keep those improvements, but karma gate them?

And yes, I do think keeping extended subguilds karma locked is as silly as it would be to say only karma players can use the Byn water tun.

[evilcabbage]

the same reason we locked magick.

everyone has access to a basic guild and a basic subguild. these are core elements of the game. everyone can choose to use these basic guilds and subguilds.

an extended subguild is -more- flexibility in how you create your character.

you can have a warrior who sneaks and hides nearly as well as an assassin, who can backstab with brutal power, -and- is effective in close combat.

this warrior is more capable than a warrior/thief who can "kind of" sneak around?


the ranger guild should be -something- because it is the most powerful guild.

[wizturbo]

Honestly, this whole damn argument is predicated on a system that's not finished yet.  These discussions are speculative and ill-timed until the system is fully released.  My rant about fairness wasn't really appropriate for the actual topic of this thread, so, sorry for the derail...I just had to get that "fairness" rant off my chest.

Secondly, the intent was never to have karma players have better versions of the subguilds available 100% of the time for play.   It was supposed to be a CGP system that had a cooldown.  The only reason the extended subguilds were turned on full time is to free up staff time to do other things until the code was in place to manage the extended subguild application process automatically.  I assume that code is being worked on, and someday it will come along and solve this problem.  

If extended subguilds are turned on for everyone, it'll feel like a kick in the teeth when they're gated behind CGP spending in the future.  Better to leave them off imo.

[BadSkeelz]

the same reason we locked magick.

everyone has access to a basic guild and a basic subguild. these are core elements of the game. everyone can choose to use these basic guilds and subguilds.

an extended subguild is -more- flexibility in how you create your character.

you can have a warrior who sneaks and hides nearly as well as an assassin, who can backstab with brutal power, -and- is effective in close combat.

this warrior is more capable than a warrior/thief who can "kind of" sneak around?


the ranger guild should be -something- because it is the most powerful guild.

Magick (sub)guilds are karma-gated for more than just "competitive" balance. While they are powerful, they also have heavy roleplay restrictions that require experience and knowledge of the gameworld to properly play out. The player of the Warrior/Slipknife does not need to account for this "cultural balancing" because the idea of a sneaky brute is not as far outside the realm as normal as a warrior who can sling fireballs.

The only roleplay requirement for a combination as powerful as you describe are the need to take the virtual world and other players' enjoyment of the game in to account. Which isn't unique to extended subguilds - it's a requirement of all players. The idea that a warrior/slipknife is more lethal than a plain assassin, or even warrior, is also a little suspect. While subs like Protector, Slipknife, and maybe the Aggressor-class give noticeable increases in power and warrant more oversight, I doubt a ranger/master potter is going to wreak appreciably more havoc on the player base than a ranger/general crafter could.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm not worried that 'old doesn't mean as much any more' (lol, what does that even mean).  I'm worried that the game doesn't feel as brutal as it once did and I started playing because I loved that  brutality.

Maybe this is a topic for another thread though, because I don't think it has anything to do with extended subguilds or how much karma they cost or don't cost.

or maybe we've already discussed it recently and my hamster-like attention span has already forgotten

Karma is essentially a measure of longevity and performance under staff eyes (which garners the "Trust" that Karma officially tracks). Older Players, with more chances to play with and prove themselves responsible enough to have Karma, generally receive karma.

Far as brutality goes, it'd be an interesting thread that would probably dissolve in to saltiness by page 2. but would be challenging to have since it'd be hard to critique the state of the game now without (vaguely or otherwise) critiquing the characters in the game now. The Brutality of the world is, in part, a reflection of the brutality of the playerbase.

[evilcabbage]

a warrior/slipknife is much more powerful than the standard warrior.

arguing that he is not is like arguing that a ten pound maul is not more powerful than a two pound rock.

[BadSkeelz]

I've found them kind of underwhelming, personally. If you really want to be an assassin... play an Assassin. Hell, Assassin/Protector is probably a better combo than warrior/slipknife.

[Vwest]

I really hate this concept of "fairness" that's permeating through the GDB lately.  Armageddon (and Zalanthas) is not "fair". 

So, you're suggesting that elevating one player above another as an OOC concept is integral and beneficial to keeping the in-game world harsh?

Stories need oppressors and the oppressed. The powerful and the powerless. I've been on both sides, and you NEED both. You really, really do.

Again. Are you saying having karma should be the difference between who plays the powerful and who plays the powerless?

Because otherwise, I'm not seeing how this has any relevance to the topic at hand.

[evilcabbage]

absolutely not. everyone should be able to play full sorcerers.

right?

no?

well, damn.

there's your answer.

[Vwest]

We're not talking about sorcerers.

I'm not even sure what your post was supposed to contribute, beyond ramping up your post count.

[evilcabbage]

I really hate this concept of "fairness" that's permeating through the GDB lately.  Armageddon (and Zalanthas) is not "fair".  

So, you're suggesting that elevating one player above another as an OOC concept is integral and beneficial to keeping the in-game world harsh?

Stories need oppressors and the oppressed. The powerful and the powerless. I've been on both sides, and you NEED both. You really, really do.

Again. Are you saying having karma should be the difference between who plays the powerful and who plays the powerless?

Because otherwise, I'm not seeing how this has any relevance to the topic at hand.