Should Extended Mundane Subguilds be Karma-locked?

[SuchDragonWow]

I really hate this concept of "fairness" that's permeating through the GDB lately.  Armageddon (and Zalanthas) is not "fair".  I don't ever want it to be "fair".  The entire game is centered around the concept that life ain't fair.

I want 100 day warrior's to get their heads chopped off by a Templar for being mouthy to the wrong day 10 noble.

I want sorcerers to be obscenely overpowered compared to a mundane, and I want them to feel like little naughty school children compared to a Red Robe of Tektolnes.  

I want that day 1 half-giant to get a lucky hit on the 100 day ranger bad ass, knock them unconscious, and kick their head in because they were stupid enough to think their "skill" could overcome that half-giants naturally born strength.

I want an unbalanced, unfair world, where my characters (and everyone elses) never, ever, feel safe.  I don't want to ever rest easy, now that they've climbed some arbitrary skill curve.  

How can I have this unbalanced, unfair world?  By giving some players outright advantages over others.  That's the definition of inequality...some people need to be better than others.  Who should get those advantages?  The players who've proven time and time again that they wield these advantages in ways that enhance the game rather than shit on it.  The day Armageddon's "powerful" characters are only the ones who achieved that power "fairly" is the day I quit the game.

/rant over

The concept of fair in the gameworld and the concept of fair in the meta of OOC constructs such as guild and subguild are not mutually exclusive, in my opinion.  Feel free to argue that they are, though.  If nothing, I'd entertain that argument.

Edit:  I see this is being discussed, but I haven't had time to read through all the posts.

[BadSkeelz]

saellyn is not here right now.


your argument is stupid and invalid. nobody is saying we should get more hp or higher stats.

we are saying that certain mundane subguilds are better than their vanilla counterparts. they offer more power.

in this game, more power is locked behind karma.

that is how it has always been. if you want more power, but you lack karma, you can apply for it with an extended subguild app that takes - at most - a week to approve.

you can do role applications for templars, nobles, gmh members, byn sergeants, arm of the dragon sergeants, guild leaders.....


so. like i said. i do not see the problem. the "better" races are behind karma. the "better" subguilds are behind karma.

there you go.

Thinking that Karma is simply a means of regulating power is a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what karma is. It does gate power, but that power is always tied to roles that require a higher level of roleplay to do properly (i.e. not run wild over the game world with your karma-derived code advantage). Roles are karma-locked to ensure they're played properly and responsibly.

Extended Subguilds do not have this same justification. They are more powerful compared to normal subguilds, but only in that comparison. You're not required to play an Outdoorsman with more respect to the game world as you are a Hunter. You've simply been given an advantage. You might as well let karma buy more HP or higher attributes at that point.

[wizturbo]

Again, the problem is extended subguilds are always available.  It makes them just straight upgrades to subguilds, which turns them into a karma-player's permanent advantage.  That's not the long term intent.  They're supposed to be options that karma players can tap into, with their limited CGP.  Being a Slipknife is supposed to be more uncommon than it is.  Once CGP is fully implemented I think they'll be in their proper place.  The only reason things are the way they are now is because it was taking up a lot of staff time to handle extended subguild applications, time that could be better spent.

It's a temporary state.

And just to answer Vwest's question:  

I don't like the way you rephrased my statement to imply some superiority complex.  Words like "elevate" and "above".  You're trying to make it sound like I'm talking from some lofty tower down at the lowly karmaless caste.  It isn't working.  

I don't think Karma players are superior to anyone else.  I said that in order to have a harsh environment, you need to have inequalities.  Those inequalities come in many varieties, most of which have nothing to do with Karma.

1)  Stats.  They're random, for everyone, regardless of karma level.  
2)  Social inequalities by geography.  You choose to play a human from Allanak, you have a social advantage in Allanak.  Want to play a Sun Runner in the Pah?  You're going to have a social advantage in the 'Pah.  Etc.  
3)  Authority inequalities.  You play a sponsored role, you get some authority that comes with it usually.  That authority comes 'born' into the character, you didn't have to earn it through IC actions.
4)  Lastly, coded advantages.  Magick, Extra Skills, Psionics, etc.  These come from Karma, as a proxy for trustworthiness, and a proxy for a player's ability to handle the challenges many of the Karma roles require.

Extended subguilds are in the 4th category.  I think they should stay there.  And I think anyone who doesn't have the Karma to access them can special app up to three times a year to get them until they've earned the karma to keep them available permanently (until CGP systems are implemented that restrict them even for Karma players on a time basis).

[Nergal]

1. Please don't flame. While you can criticize the opinions of other people, do so with respect for them as a fellow human.  Unnecessary, flaming, baiting and trolling will be removed and the instigator and respondees may have their posting privileges revoked.

[lostinspace]

You might as well let karma buy more HP or higher attributes at that point.

You chop the red-eyed man on the neck, doing unspeakable damage!

You chop the red-eyed man on the neck, doing unspeakable damage!

You chop the red-eyed man on the neck, doing unspeakable damage!

You chop the red-eyed man on the neck, doing unspeakable damage!

You chop the red-eyed man on the neck, doing unspeakable damage!

think (amazed) I've gone through trees faster than this guys neck...

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I wouldn't think low levels of karma are hard to earn for people who are responsible to a normal degree. It just takes some time.