Karma: is it no longer fulfilling its intended purpose?

[Ziel]

Even with all that's been written on karma, all the categories and criteria, it's always boiled down to one question in my mind:



I dunno. Someone could list off a hundred reasons why it's a great idea, and in some cases I'd still hesitate to get on the carpet.

[Jihelu]

If I put in a review this would be my reply
" Jihelu, request denied.
The only reason we haven't banned you is because you are Rath's bastard child.
We have taken the liberty of removing four random subguilds from your selection and the ability to priotize agility.
Also you can only play characters above 40"

[nauta]

I stopped for gas outside Cedar Point...

I love Cedar Point.

[Refugee]

So this guy is clearly obnoxious.  Is he limited from getting karma because of that?

Yes.  Because karma roles need more staff interaction, usually, and why would they want to put themselves in a situation where they have to deal with someone obnoxious frequently?  Staffing sucks, in my experience...and staffing obnoxious people sucks more.

That's how we need to think about karma.  It's saying they believe you will do your job in an expected manner.  They don't have to supervise you constantly, they don't have to correct you all the time, you'll let them know what they need to know... they can trust you to do your job.

I once had this guy working for me.  IRL.  My team was 16 guys, electronics techs in the old days when we fixed -everything- to a component level. No swapping out boards.  Dig into a computer the size of a chest freezer and find the bad chip, and replace it.  So this guy was always complaining because I was promoting guys who had been working there less time.  

I told him, look, if I send you to change out a light bulb, it's 50/50 if I'll have to send someone else to do it right.  Why should I promote you?  

His response - promote me to an A-tech (midrange) and I'll perform like an A-tech. Since I'm being paid like a B-tech I'll perform like a B-tech.  

So of course he stayed a B-tech until I could get rid of his useless butt.  He was less useful and whined more than the rest of the guys put together.  Why reward that just because he had been sitting around taking up space longer than other people who actually tried to do a good job?

[Vwest]

Is it wrong to think Jasmine is kinda of hot?

[Beethoven]

I think that's a good comparison, Refugee.

And Asmoth, you don't have to think of this as an entirely bad thing, even if the tone was brusque. When staff give you pointers about what you're doing wrong and what they want from you, it's a lot easier to know what to do. You've been given an opportunity to show your improvement and work on your OOC relations with the staff and playerbase. I mean, that's a good thing anyway, so it's not a waste of time to work on that no matter what the result.

After you've demonstrated this improvement, you can then say to staff, "You told me what I needed to do, and I did it." I think they would appreciate that a lot.

[Asmoth]

I think that's a good comparison, Refugee.

And Asmoth, you don't have to think of this as an entirely bad thing, even if the tone was brusque. When staff give you pointers about what you're doing wrong and what they want from you, it's a lot easier to know what to do. You've been given an opportunity to show your improvement and work on your OOC relations with the staff and playerbase. I mean, that's a good thing anyway, so it's not a waste of time to work on that no matter what the result.

After you've demonstrated this improvement, you can then say to staff, "You told me what I needed to do, and I did it." I think they would appreciate that a lot.

The only thing I got outta three requests was "Dont talk to us, don't ask us questions, don't ask for clarification on anything, and be nice on the forums"

And I just nearly ran my car off the side of the road... More when I make cleveland

[Vwest]

After you've demonstrated this improvement, you can then say to staff, "You told me what I needed to do, and I did it." I think they would appreciate that a lot.

You can never escape your account notes, ever.

I think at this point, he could probably start a new account and end up with more karma in less time than it would take to dig himself out of the hole he just jumped into.

[MeTekillot]

I nailed couches to ceilings on my third character and I'm still sitting pretty with five karma, so I don't think he's too deep in a hole if he actually makes an effort to change his behavior.

[MeTekillot]

I even filed staff complaints and got caught in a big tizzy involving one of my PC's besties getting force-stored.

[MeTekillot]

And I've also been banned from the GDB like, four times? Two of those times involving snide or combative remarks at staff.

Point is, no, he's not doomed and he doesn't really need to make a new account.

[Armaddict]

Set karma
to 3, Bit of a whiner, but god knows we don't deduct karma for that. Bumping
karma to 3 to reflect previous access to half-giant. -Sanvean.

I don't believe willingness to argue an issue reflects trust. That reflects submission and complacency. Again, no, I don't think such interactions should be limiting to karma unless you're showing willingness to break game rules or show that you, with a karma role, would actively work against the theme of the game.

We have been told repeatedly to be open and honest on our issues with staff.  To have that be used against you is like...well.  I'm pretty sure that's what the Miranda Rights are all about.  "You don't have to talk because we'll use it against you."  Which is contrary to the emphasis made that such communication is necessary.

I will continue being honest on what I feel or think on changes, ideas, events, or judgments.

Edit:

It should be noted that the above note was from a time period where I was using wish often to complain about events in the game, sending open emails complaining about how things affected my character, and so on.  In other words, it's not about my 'critiques' on the GDB and such; I was being an aggressive pain in the ass, and still received the above consideration and reinforcement that such was not what karma was about, because I was not throwing muck into the game to stomp around with.

[SuchDragonWow]

So of course he stayed a B-tech until I could get rid of his useless butt.  He was less useful and whined more than the rest of the guys put together.  Why reward that just because he had been sitting around taking up space longer than other people who actually tried to do a good job?

I don't think that's the attitude we should take with other players.  I certainly hope it's not the attitude staff take toward players.

What I see, though, is that karma is not always about trust, and more about conformity.  That's not to say this is a bad thing, there should be guidelines.  But to throw this all under the umbrella of "Staff trust to do X", that wouldn't make much sense to me, at all.  As Nergal has already pointed out, "staff" is a nebulous idea that is characterized differently throughout the years -- through changes to the code, to the policy, to the documentation.

Is it wrong to think Jasmine is kinda of hot?

Don't get me started on Disney princesses and how they ruined my adult perception of romance. 

[BadSkeelz]

So of course he stayed a B-tech until I could get rid of his useless butt.  He was less useful and whined more than the rest of the guys put together.  Why reward that just because he had been sitting around taking up space longer than other people who actually tried to do a good job?

I don't think that's the attitude we should take with other players.  I certainly hope it's not the attitude staff take toward players.

What's the alternative? I don't think people are entitled to karma simply by showing up and hanging around (beyond the already-existing longevity point). Especially if their presence is perceived to be negative, which is how the guy in Refugee's example comes across.

[SuchDragonWow]

The alternative is to mold better players.  I believe Metekillot claims to have a success story in that department.  I recall accounts from other players I consider to be great contributors to this game:  Desertman, Is Friday, Malifaxis, Majikal, etc.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, it's weird when you write up a post and see Metekillot has already made your point for you.

I don't see the systems as exclusionary, however. Staff can't really mold or coerce or improve anyone to play differently; they can't train us or be our life coach. The most they can do is say "We're not giving you karma for these reasons," and then the player can decide if they want to change their behavior to meet Staff's expectations. They might even do it subconsciously as they mellow and mature. (Or grow increasingly immature and bitter like myself.)

Going back to Refugee's example, an offer to mold the "player" was made: do your job responsibly and we will promote you to higher-paying, more responsible position. It doesn't make sense to take the "players" word that they'll behave responsibly when they don't have a history of it. It makes even less sense to put them in a position where they could do real harm. Sometimes those gambles are made and pay off, though, and then everyone wins. But those are the exceptions to the rule.

[SuchDragonWow]

The most they can do is say "We're not giving you karma for these reasons," and then the player can decide if they want to change their behavior to meet Staff's expectations.

I understand the karma review is a great place to do these things, but for newer players especially, maybe the karma helpfile can be updated.  I dunno, this is about as super serial as I get.  Seacrest out

[BadSkeelz]

It would be nice if we had more guidelines and examples of good roleplay and how to improve and just generally be cool.

And that our biggest rule helpfile wasn't about how you can't rape people no more.

[Norcal]

What I see, though, is that karma is not always about trust, and more about conformity.  That's not to say this is a bad thing, there should be guidelines.  

Although karma is still subjective (because it is based on human judgment) it is not geared towards conformity. Different staffers see things differently. For that reason they have tried to set up objective milestones.  The milestones are can be attained through a variety of different play styles and direction, as is evident by looking at us as a player base, so there is no central or "model" player that staff want us to conform to. At least not in my opinion.

I do suppose that there are some things unwritten, that influence staff regarding karma, and it would be good to document these things, so that they do not appear to be whimsical.

[Inks]

I 100% agree with Skeelz on this one. Karma works. I have bad account notes from the last two years and it has not caused staff to "have it in for me". They know what they are doing overall guys.

Possible suicide yet again, with [redacted] - attacked a big group of
dune vultures with inexperienced PC. - 6/30/15

I have gained karma since then by solid RP and taking the virtual world into account, and with the understanding not to stat-suicide. Just..play for your fun and to be part of a world, not for Karma hunting, and it comes naturally.

[Desertman]

Is it wrong to think Jasmine is kinda of hot?

10/10, would let her rub my lamp and make her wishes come true. 

[Fathi]

I only just recently got my most recent karma review so it didn't come with account notes to post, but I'd like to point out something.

I originally started this game sharing an account with my friend. I've had characters stored by staff. I have a lot of iffy account notes, although back then my clan staff used to just email me and tell me what a pain in the ass I was being more than put notes on my account. Most of those emails were justified. I used to respond to every suggestion or request from staff by arguing, often times carrying on the same old arguments for weeks.

I took a break from the game, came back, and tried to be more chilled out. I feel like my RP didn't change, although I definitely did less totally newbish stuff and had a lot more respect for the game structure. I got karma, over time. I got sponsored roles, over time.

I was 100% convinced my account notes were going to hold me back for a very long time. Every time I got turned down for something I assumed that was the reason why, like someone saw my notes and went "oh yeah, remember this girl, she's an idiot."

But that's not what happened. I played a long-lived sponsored role, got a couple more points of karma, was more honest and chill in my dialogues with the game's admins. And surprise, they were chill back.

Seriously, if I can get karma on this game, anybody can. The main key for me was to just stop being such an asshole.

Apart from my verrrry first bit of karma, every single point I have was asked for. I just bugged staff consistently every year or so. I doubt I'd have much at all if I just sat around hoping they'd give it to me and notice how much I'd improved.

[Norcal]

Is it wrong to think Jasmine is kinda of hot?

10/10, would let her rub my lamp and make her wishes come true. 

[Jihelu]

Ya'll people keep putting up role calls for shit whenever I'm alive.
is this a conspiracy?

[Vwest]

I don't see the systems as exclusionary, however. Staff can't really mold or coerce or improve anyone to play differently; they can't train us or be our life coach.

Frankly?  Because you're a nuisance in the OOC sense.  We're not obligated to give you karma if you make our lives difficult, even if you're the world's best RP'er.

There are a hundred more constructive ways to word that, so as to better direct him towards being the 'ideal' player. You wouldn't even need to use more words, just better and more constructive ones. That is the difference between molding a better player and leaving a player feeling like they're 'enemies' in future engagements.

It's like way back when I checked in to ask about backstab usage.

I was told by a 'producer' that it's fine to use it for hunting if that's what your character is doing. So whenever we were out hunting, I did, until about three weeks later a staff member exploded at me out of nowhere for using it on animals, threatening me with storage if I abused backstab again. That was it, there was nothing beyond some hyper-aggressive threatening and silence.

Let's skip forward and a different character is out with a friend and we run into a gith. So, the other PC is tanking the gith and mine dismounts and backstabs the gith, then proceeds with normal combat until it's dead. We've done this many times before and there has never been an issue. This time, I get a send, "Never use backstab like that again.", to which I asked what exactly I was doing wrong.

I got silence in response.

What was I, a newer player, supposed to take away from that? What could I have possibly been expected to learn from it?

Staff are in the ideal position to mold, train and direct players towards what they expect, they simply choose not to most of the time.