Karma: is it no longer fulfilling its intended purpose?

[Case]

That was an adventure of emotion

Oh I'll readily admit I'm a mix of pissed, disappointed and somehow shocked (even though I guess j shouldn't be by now) that they would go all crazy over me asking clarification on a request.

Is this 'apeshit' you mentioned the single line saying that the producer finds you difficult to deal with?

[Asmoth]

That was an adventure of emotion

Oh I'll readily admit I'm a mix of pissed, disappointed and somehow shocked (even though I guess j shouldn't be by now) that they would go all crazy over me asking clarification on a request.

Is this 'apeshit' you mentioned the single line saying that the producer finds you difficult to deal with?

There was more but I couldn't share the rest.  But yes.  It would be like you asking me the weather and I go.

Know what? I don't like you, you're an asshole, go fuck yourself and stop talking to me.

You would be like, ok psycho and roll out.  Same thing pretty much here.

No wait that's a bad example, say I run a gathering and only certain people can be invited to this gathering and you notice your peers and subordinates are all invited... You contact me and ask if I somehow offended you or if I did something wrong at our last meeting and I let you have it that you're annoying while ignoring your base question.

But yet you still enjoy the functions my company puts on but aren't sure how the hell to proceed when told to fuck off in essence.  You're torn, do you just say fuck it and stop coming to the functions you enjoy or do you risk trying again to figure out what you did to not be invited to the special event?

But I'm sure I didn't have to explain how this works to you Case, you're no dummy, so why are you asking?

[LauraMars]

This thread is starting to get off track. We're no longer talking about if karma is fulfilling its intended purpose and are instead delving deep into the specific grievances of one player against the staff, the details of which are probably better left to private communications. Asmoth, I'm sure you'll update everyone on what happens with your staff complaint, but for the time being, let's get back on topic.

[Asmoth]

This thread is starting to get off track. We're no longer talking about if karma is fulfilling its intended purpose and are instead delving deep into the specific grievances of one player against the staff, the details of which are probably better left to private communications. Asmoth, I'm sure you'll update everyone on what happens with your staff complaint, but for the time being, let's get back on topic.

You mean what doesn't, but yes, I agree let's get back to the normal topic I suppose.  I'm done.

[Vwest]

A quick note on the way out the door:

Those backstab scenarios I mentioned were in like... 2007? 2008? I'd have to go check request dates to be sure.

It isn't a recent thing, nor was it supposed to indicate current staff are, to steal someone elses term, going apeshit on people about backstab. It was to give an example of how you end up with jilted or disgruntled players, rather than players who are open to taking advice or having their behavior corrected.

Prior to those incidents (and some others) I had a really high opinion of staff, including Nyr if you can believe it, and all my communications with them had been very positive.

That was the point of the post. I'm going to go eat panda express and immediately regret it.

[little chicken woman]

Spamcasting should be mentioned somewhere in the helpfiles since its so prevalent, i.e. a large number of players (including myself until corrected) think its okay to sit around for 6-7 game hours casting. (I personally never went past the 4 hour mark but I was still told to stop casting so much.) Its because you can only cast what, twice at full power during each game hour. If some people see it as crafting they decide that 8-10 times a day is good and spend most of their time doing it for lack of interaction and anything else to do. Real easy perception to fall into. Gotta go in a helpfile, a common one like help magick or something.

[LauraMars]

I moderated a couple of posts. Less targeted hostility, more reasonable discussion.

Don't make me open this, it's irritating to eyes and skin.

[Majikal]

I do think this new magick subguild things is really going to cut down on the need/desire to spam spells. Which I do like. That is a huge added benefit that I seriously can appreciate.

Concerning some members of this community:
Karma is a lot more than a checklist of things and 'how you play' inside the game, it's how you benefit the community. If your posts are usually flaming vitriol and rule breaking, prone to moderation and constantly being reported to the attention of staff you can expect some lashback when you show up to staff with your hands out asking for stuff like trust.

I had an employee that was a kick ass installer, unfortunately he caused drama among all the other installers I had and we always had to cater to it, make sure no other installers were on the job at the same time etc. Despite being a great installer, his constant shitslinging was an annoyance, rather than be known for his reliable scheduling, pickups, installing, he got known for all the bad shit that truthfully wasn't all that work related. His shittiness made my life a little shittier. I fired him for it. Why? Because no matter how great of a worker he was, I felt like I had to babysit his big dumb ass.

[little chicken woman]

I thought once of making a 'roleplay' sheet, one page or less, which just stated stuff newbies could use on month one and perhaps year two. Of course some of it would be wrong, but some of it would be taken directly from whole paragraphs of helpfiles, like for example

* Dwarves always think about their focus, always. How people can benefit their focus, how doing something benefits their focus.
* Elves do not share humans' ideas of "possessing" something (specifically, defending the possession of something with all their power for its own sake.)
* Half-giants tend to think more in the short-term for obvious reasons. They may not be able to wait ten minutes for a second piece of candy if they can hold out on eating the first.


Might be wrong with one of those though.

[Vwest]

I'm deeply regretting it.

[Asmoth]

I do think this new magick subguild things is really going to cut down on the need/desire to spam spells. Which I do like. That is a huge added benefit that I seriously can appreciate.

Concerning some members of this community:
Karma is a lot more than a checklist of things and 'how you play' inside the game, it's how you benefit the community. If your posts are usually flaming vitriol and rule breaking, prone to moderation and constantly being reported to the attention of staff you can expect some lashback when you show up to staff with your hands out asking for stuff like trust.

I had an employee that was a kick ass installer, unfortunately he caused drama among all the other installers I had and we always had to cater to it, make sure no other installers were on the job at the same time etc. Despite being a great installer, his constant shitslinging was an annoyance, rather than be known for his reliable scheduling, pickups, installing, he got known for all the bad shit that truthfully wasn't all that work related. His shittiness made my life a little shittier. I fired him for it. Why? Because no matter how great of a worker he was, I felt like I had to babysit his big dumb ass.

Oh trust me I get it.

But I hardly require anything IC, I might wish up here and there to rp with a npc to do shit that needs done, and if they ignore it (I think only certain staff can animate) I just roll on with life.

I seek out people through boards, ask people at the bar, in the grasslands etc for X and Y and who I should talk to.

I don't ask staff for a fucking thing really in game.  In game I'm a self powered, self aiming RP missile that doesn't even need nor want staff attention in 99.9 percent of the time.

What my problem is, and what I think other people's problem is when they talk about Karma and Trust and etc.

If you are worried about watching me, and needing to hand hold me or however they put it, why do you think I would need that as a Ranger that flys or a ranger that rocks (stone mage joke).  I never needed you on anything before.  I, to my knowledge, have no complaints about responsible use of magick, my only complaints are things that don't really matter, the GDB and some clerical shit in game.  At least as far as I'm aware, because when I ask questions I get told in no uncertain terms to leave staff alone.

Since the beginning of the year, I have had about fifteen legit requests, what I mean by legit requests is things that are out of the normal, like questions, complaints etc.  The rest of mine have been Kudos, suggestions, role applications, karma review, question about the karma review, request about GDB and things that staff has opened up on my account on their own.  With a few leave a clan join a clans in there.  And that's spread over 3 months, almost 4.

So let's go ahead and assume that I am just blowing their inbox up with this MASSIVE (sarcasm) amount of requests...  Let's assume.  Why hasn't there been any mention of it before now?  Before it's convenient to make up a false reason, while being snippy and rude in the same sentiment?  BUT as I said, let's assume that I am over the top with the requests and as I said earlier, typing is oh so hard.

Alright, so I request too much, I also do a few things in the game that are RP oriented, too much.

How, does that affect whether I can play a mage or a half-giant (I probably wouldn't, they are boring to me?

In the game, since the beginning of the year, I have got one staff sends you thing that wasn't like, "Thanks for doing that."

How does the trust of essentially a clerical thing, the typing or not typing of comments on the GDB, have to do with whether I'll play a mage right or wrong?  I think my First or second mage I had someone say I was casting too much, since then no issues.  I balance that shit with other activities and sitting in a temple or cave casting all day is boring as shit anyways.

The two don't correlate logically, so assuming I'm this oh so horrible player, this huge Pariah that is such a problem, yet I never hear of any complaints about what I do while I'm logged into the mud, how does my behavior on the gdb even remotely reflect how good or badly I'll play a mage or mul or whatever?

The simple answer is it doesn't, sure you could make some lipservice and say it does, but honestly it doesn't.  I could totally turn around, become the most fake and polite poster you've ever seen and in six months, it wouldn't change how I would play a mage today or then.  Because even though I don't like a good chunk of you as people, I'll still rp my characters accordingly, I don't care that they are controlled by this guy I can't stand, this chick I hate.  It's irrelevant.

I can make that association, why can't staff?

EDIT: And to clarify, I understand that sponsored roles are going to VERY hard to get with this I don't want staff interaction attitude, and I'm fine with that, because short of a templar and a few nobles that seem to never die.  I'm not interested in sponsored roles really.  Maybe a GMH Hunter Salarri or something, but again, those don't come up enough to even bring it into conversation.

[Armaddict]

* Half-giants tend to think more in the short-term for obvious reasons. They may not be able to wait ten minutes for a second piece of candy if they can hold out on eating the first.

That description makes me chuckle.  I like it.  /derail

[SuchDragonWow]

I moderated a couple of posts. Less targeted hostility, more reasonable discussion.

I'm sorry, but targeted hostility?

[Vwest]

I moderated a couple of posts. Less targeted hostility, more reasonable discussion.

I'm sorry, but targeted hostility?

Some people started to dogpile Asmoth.

Normally I'm pretty against any kind of moderation / censorship, but it was definitely necessary in this case.

[SuchDragonWow]

I guess I did call the guy obnoxious, sorry dude.  It seemed a good time to explore the correlation between karma and GDB behavior, though.

[John]

It's more of a natural cut-off from the way the categories are designed and the way players fit into them (not every player is great at everything or even gets the chance to demonstrate certain criteria, e.g. leadership).

I guess it raises a question: do you need to be a good OOC leader to play a sorcerer, psionicist or nilazi? I don't think the two correlate myself, and I realise there's other categories you can get karma for, but the fact so much of our playerbase is not getting to tick off those criteria I find disturbing. I get why I don't have a higher karma score, there's no mystery there for me. I always just thought I was the exception and that most people who'd been around long enough would have reached that karma 8 category by now. I genuinely believe in the ability of our playerbase to roleplay well, so I do consider that to be a failing of our current karma system.

Personally I think, as flawed as the previous method of "giving karma because staff thinks someone's good enough/because they're a pet or friend of theirs", it had it's strong points that have since been lost. The regimented criteria were a good idea, but I think it's proven to be unsuccessful based on what people have reported in this thread.

Belittling staff on the forum is an example of "what makes you annoying on an OOC level" and greatly reduces any respect anyone could ever have in you, or any amount of trustworthiness they could ever have in you. That's one of the ways to earn karma: don't be an OOC pest or drama-queen on the GDB or elsewhere. The more time you demand the staff spend on you, the more likely they are to say "nope, no karma for you."

This is really disappointing. The GDB has been an evolution over Armageddon's history. Once upon a time (I believe this based purely on someone who saw things and not as someone who actually knows what the backend was like) that there was minimal correlation between GDB activity and in-game karma awarding. Because as far as I remember there were no user accounts or at least they weren't so easily linked to your in game account (maybe IP addresses were logged and staff took the time to document them. I'm doubtful but it's theoretically possible). Then we got an account system and eventually the ability to post anonymously was taken away. Whether someone's a good roleplayer or earns the trust to roleplay a sorcerer well should have little to no correlation to GDB behaviour. I've never realised that the two had become connected and I am disappointed to hear that they are.

I nailed couches to ceilings on my third character and I'm still sitting pretty with five karma, so I don't think he's too deep in a hole if he actually makes an effort to change his behavior.

It sounds like with enough pestering and adequate behaviour anyone can get to 5 karma though. That doesn't really seem to signify any amount of trust that is afforded you more than is afforded anyone else. It could be that your past behaviour will bar you from ever getting to play a higher karma role.

Apart from my verrrry first bit of karma, every single point I have was asked for. I just bugged staff consistently every year or so. I doubt I'd have much at all if I just sat around hoping they'd give it to me and notice how much I'd improved.

See I always interpreted trust as trusting you to play characters of that type well. So from my perspective (and this could have always been wrong) the karma system use to be about awarding people who play their character well with karma, seeing if the trust that was placed in them was justified by them then playing the higher karma role, repeat until they stop demonstrating they deserve that trust. The karma system seems to now be about awarding people karma who tick off one of 7 (possibly 11, I believe some of the categories can be ticked twice) criteria AND be someone who regularly pesters staff for more karma. To me, this is a clear sign that karma has failed. If the surest way of getting more karma is to hassle staff, then the system needs to be reviewed and potentially changed. I can see how the game has evolved into this. How many staff do we have these days? 12? (I don't actually know. There use to be a single page that listed all staff. I've probably missed some). We use to have 15 staff. Now today's staff may be more reliably active, but assuming I'm out by half that's only 3 extra staff than we had back in 2002. I'd like to think Armageddon's playerbase has grown more than 20% over the last 14 years. That shows how hard working today's staff are. It makes sense that the old way of reviewing karma is no longer feasible (also the old way was wrought with problems). But that doesn't mean the new way is good, simply understandable how things evolved to the current point they are.

I think a system where people are awarded karma at a rate of 1 point a year would be better than what we've currently got. If anyone abuses a particular role enough to be docked karma, dock them and let them wait another year before they get to try that role again. If reviewing karma except when players pester you is too difficult to apply consistently, then put some faith and trust into your playerbase and you might be surprised when they return it by actually performing well in these "difficult" roles. You never know what happens when you put faith into people. Of course, there'll always be a few who disappoint. But it seems unnecessary to punish the many for the actions of the few.

[Asmoth]

I've played a pretty good number of magickers through special app, all the way up to whiran a before they went stupid high karma.  Fire, wind, water and stone.  Which honestly I feel water and stone can be SUPER deadly for various reasons and not once in any of those characters has there been a need to interact with staff.  I never had staff contact me and go, we wanna do some freaky voodoo with you water witch or anything even remotely like that.

Mages don't have a board even on the gdb, they don't even have an ic board across all the temples to spread rumors.  So when ones gdb behavior or lack there of is cited as a reason you can't play something short of a sorcerer or mul.  I just seems like a silly excuse, if I never type another comment on this board and I don't send a single request into the game in the next six months, am I now somehow more suited to play a magicker because I don't interact with you?  I would think that the answer as the twisted system is now would be yes, which is sad.

Somehow, for years we have made a correlation that playing nice on a discussion board somehow infers that you're not going to do all the bad things someone can do with a Mage:

So apparently if you don't have a great gdb relationship you will do the following:

Overly spamcast in your temple.

Use your magick to murder other pcs with little to no reason

Not understand how and where to use your magick

And not be able to wrap your head around the PC first, Mage second ideal.

Damn, seems like all my mages are doomed to fail because I get my posts moderated on the gdb....

If you think that sounds stupid, then you're right, welcome to Karma from early 2000s to now.  Where ooc actions on the boards somehow say you'll be a horrible player of guilds outside mundane, God forbid.

Alright I'm gonna shit shower and head to work, I'll check in throughout the day again and see how if any folks can support this silly belief.

[Nergal]

It's more of a natural cut-off from the way the categories are designed and the way players fit into them (not every player is great at everything or even gets the chance to demonstrate certain criteria, e.g. leadership).

I guess it raises a question: do you need to be a good OOC leader to play a sorcerer, psionicist or nilazi? I don't think the two correlate myself, and I realise there's other categories you can get karma for, but the fact so much of our playerbase is not getting to tick off those criteria I find disturbing.

To an extent, yes. Leadership is, in part, a demonstration that you won't abuse your power by using the code in an unrealistic manner (for example, forcing your character's bodyguard to help you kill PCs). This level of trust applies to higher-level roles and it is given to those who have demonstrated responsibility in that regard. As far as progression goes, many players can get a point in four or five criteria within 3 years and take longer to achieve the rest. I would say "contributes to the game" and "leadership" are the only ones that rely on chance, because they rely on things like landing submission calls/helper calls/sponsored roles/promotions/etc. Even if you earn nothing in those two categories you can still earn 8 karma, it just takes longer because the second point in a category is harder to earn than the first.

Again, all we do is ask players to ask for a review.

[Dar]

Malifaxis isnt nice on GDB. But he rarely actively trolls, or derails threads. He's bitter and loathesome, and he stinks in his posts. But they usually do have a point. Inside the game though he is ... amazing. One of few players I feel in awe playing with, because he's just so stupidly awesome. I should kill him more often, come to think of it.

[valeria]

...  Where ooc actions on the boards somehow say you'll be a horrible player of guilds outside mundane, God forbid. ...

I'm pretty sure it's been said already, a couple of times, but staff trust just isn't about whether you RP well.  A lot of the sponsored roles have to report weekly, the players have to go back and forth with staff on a lot of things, be flexible about altering their concept because of tweaks to rules and the game world that they don't necessarily even know about.  Players of higher karma roles have to be willing to roll with corrections and able to interface with staff about very sensitive issues.

You are clearly not open to correction.

Now, you might not agree with that.  I happen to agree with it, because I'm aware that running a game for a bunch of sensitive nerds like us takes ungodly amounts of patience (having staffed for other games), and a happy staff is a staff that's focused on doing things instead of focused on flipping their keyboards because That One Guy just won't stop arguing with them all the time is at it again. 

[Desertman]

Man, I'm going to level with you.

This is coming from someone who had a horrible relationship with staff based entirely upon my admittedly shit-level GDB personality years ago.

The staff here are not the heads of a corporation with an HR department in place. They are a group of people who spend their time governing a game where other people pretend to be elves and dwarves and pretend to ride and fight giant insects.

Your vision of staff is that they should be this: (I know this because for a very long time my vision of what I thought staff should be was exactly the same.)


(Ath is the charming good looking black guy. Don't ask me why, he just is.)

In reality, staff is actually this:


(Ath is the tall white guy in this picture, again, don't ask me why, he just is.)


Now, I do believe staff has a responsibility to conduct themselves in a civil manner when at all possible. I do feel that sometimes staff fall short of this expectation I have. However, you have to remember, they aren't corporately paid and corporately governed employees. They are a bunch of nerds governing a bunch of other nerds.

Some of them will not be perfect. Some of them will even be immature and spiteful.

Do you know why?

Because they deal with this, every single day: (Our playerbase.)


(In this picture I'm the bright yellow blonde. Blondes have more fun. RGS gets to the be the one with the blue hair, again, no reason.)


I'm not saying that is an excuse for treating people poorly. What I am saying is that you have to bring your expectations to a level of reality.

In my experience MOST staff have gone out of their way to treat me with understanding and professionalism. I personally feel that is the path that should always be taken, but I also understand that this path will not always be taken, and that in reality, having such an expectation is against the reality of the situation.

I think it's fine to expect to be treated professionally, and when you aren't, sure, file a complaint. However, don't be surprised when your reply is in fact a realistic reply based on the reality of your situation.

Imagine sitting around a tabletop with a bunch of other nerds. If you are the guy who always argues with the DM, and that DM is a super nerd (who has spent 20+ years of their life playing the same campaign, because let's be honest, some of us and some of staff are exactly that guy, I'm one), you're probably eventually not going to have a good time. Also, DM Super Nerd is probably not going to treat you the same way your HR department is expected to and obligated to treat you when discussing the particulars of your 401K.

Play and communicate within the realm of reality in regards to your expectations both with other players and with staff here. Some people you will have to handle delicately. Some people will not handle you delicately, some will be down right rude for no reason. Why? Because we are a huge group of nerds governing other nerds. This is not a recipe for extreme professionalism in every regard.

I'm not making excuses for anyone. I am however just saying, "Man, you can't always take it personally, sometimes, you just have to bend over and take it up the tail pipe and move on because you will not win.".

(I've only ever filed one staff complaint and cancelled it myself after a short while of cooling off and thinking it over. I don't think I was wrong, but my expectations in regards to where they stacked up against the reality of my situation were wrong.)

[John]

Even if you earn nothing in those two categories you can still earn 8 karma, it just takes longer because the second point in a category is harder to earn than the first.

And yet most people plateau at karma 4-6. So either people aren't as good as I think they are, people don't care enough to pester staff every six months or people aren't aware that submitting karma reviews is really the only guaranteed way to get more karma.It's not hard to see why people might not be aware they need to submit regular karma reviews if they want karma

Staff may also award (or remove) karma at their own discretion outside of Karma Review requests.

those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds.

The karma help file certainly makes it sound like a karma review is only one of multiple ways to get karma. The emphasis (on my reading) is much more on staff using their own initiative to award karma. Given it likely hasn't been updated since the the "ask players to ask for a review" policy came into being perhaps a review of the help file might be a good idea rather then it be GDB-only knowledge.

On the whole "GDB posts will stop/slow the amount of karma you get" policy, there's no actual cOmmunication of this in the website that I can find. On the staff communication page:

There are several established means for communicating with staff. These are the 'wish' command, biographies and the request tool.

Showing good communication with staff (both regular updates via Character Reports, as well as quality of communication) is one of the categories measured in karma decisions.

makes it sound like staff communication, rather than any communication, is all that's taken into consideration. Mentioning the GDB could have the positive effect of people moderating their behavior in the GDB more. At the very least it would make things clearer.

[Asmoth]

Malifaxis isnt nice on GDB. But he rarely actively trolls, or derails threads. He's bitter and loathesome, and he stinks in his posts. But they usually do have a point. Inside the game though he is ... amazing. One of few players I feel in awe playing with, because he's just so stupidly awesome. I should kill him more often, come to think of it.

he also is ex staff
Driving again will respond to that wall of text in a bit

[Lizzie]

John don't forget - the way the game is currently set up with karma options, you really only need 5 karma if you want to play the full spectrum. The only remaining 8-karma options - quarter-sorcerer subguild and psionicist - require special applications ANYWAY, even if you have the full 8 points of karma. If you have 5 karma, then you can special app up to and including 3 points higher than 5, which equals 8. So really you only need 5 karma to app those 8-karma roles. There's no need to earn the full 8 karma. If the staff trusts you to roleplay responsibly and you show that you aren't going to demand too much of their time while playing that role, it's just as possible to get the app accepted with 5 karma as it is with 8 karma.

[John]

The only remaining 8-karma options - quarter-sorcerer subguild and psionicist - require special applications ANYWAY, even if you have the full 8 points of karma.

Wow, I was not aware of that. Is that documented anywhere? My initial search has returned the help file saying 8 karma is required and a post from Nathvaan stating 8 karma OR a special app is required.