Karma: is it no longer fulfilling its intended purpose?

[RogueGunslinger]

I'll put it out there that karma is still subjective. They made a push with those rules to make it a more objective tool, but elsewhere staff have repeated that most players will not exceed the karma cap, which I believe was 5-6.  There is no objective reason why some players are allowed to exceed that cap and others are not.  Not to mention the reviews can be declined.  There will always be a subjective decision made, and after thinking on it, I'm not sure that can be done purely without favoritism.  The system is flawed.

Can you explain yourself here a bit?  What do you mean staff have said most don't get past 5-6 karma? What instances can a karma review can be declined? Only one I can think of is if you've played for less than 6 months.

Request Granted:

Ralken,

Sorry this took so long. You are currently assessed at 4 points of karma, points beyond 4 become harder to earn and so the scrutiny is tougher and the points are not 'equal' to those at 4 and below.

You were granted your 4th point in November and we feel that was relatively recent and that for now 4 points is a fair assessment for your karma level.

Interesting. I wonder if this is to keep 5+karma magickers/muls more rare, or if there's some other reason.

[MeTekillot]

OLD KARMA PLAYERS UP AGAINST THE WALL

[MeTekillot]

EASY TO TALK ABOUT KARMA BEING UNIMPORTANT WHEN YOU GOT IT BEFORE THE KARMA ECONOMY CRASHED

[Jihelu]

lol


I've yet to get a karma/I don't think I have one in my time playing.
That being said I took, what, a three month break?
And I'm a dumb ass.
But heres the thing.



Do I want karma?
Meh.
Would it be nice
Also meh

[Vwest]

EASY TO TALK ABOUT KARMA BEING UNIMPORTANT WHEN YOU GOT IT BEFORE THE KARMA ECONOMY CRASHED

The avatar really sells it.

[Desertman]

EASY TO TALK ABOUT KARMA BEING UNIMPORTANT WHEN YOU GOT IT BEFORE THE KARMA ECONOMY CRASHED

The avatar really sells it.

Yeah I laughed.

[MeTekillot]

[SuchDragonWow]

Hehe.  I've played with delirium, I'm positive she deserves her karma.  I'm sure everyone does.  I'm just pondering why there is a cap before the cap.

[Norcal]

Hehe.  I've played with delirium, I'm positive she deserves her karma.  I'm sure everyone does.  I'm just pondering why there is a cap before the cap.

Is there such a thing? Cap²? Not sure what you are saying.

[SuchDragonWow]

I'm on my phone and out and about, or I would search the GDB for you, Nyr-style.  I cannot, though.

[BadSkeelz]

The only post I can really recall suggesing anything like a SubCap is this one from earlier in the thread

While I generally like the changes so far, I have to agree that all the changes are putting a lot more emphasis on the karma system. A system which is still considered biased, flawed and unfair by many. Despite its guidelines, the way karma is calculated is still really up to interpretation by whoever is reviewing you.

Several members of the staff team pitch in to review players in many cases. It is not an autocratic process, although that also makes it slow.

The majority of people don't get beyond two or three karma, even if they never play anything remotely twinky or threatening. This idea is probably not going to be popular but karma should be more of an automated process. After certain point of time played(we are talking months if not a year here) a player should probably be rewarded karma assuming there are no bad notes or concerns to their records. This should continue to a specific limit.  I feel that karma limit should be 5, forcing anything above 5 karma to be special app only. That said, ideally I feel the limit should be four karma but that is with the assumption players will be able to special app things four level above their karma instead of three.

Typically the cut-off is 4-5 karma before it starts to get harder to earn karma. I would say most players have the potential to reach it, however at the moment that requires them to put in regular karma reviews to kind of remind us to review them.

Until the system is changed to a more automated process, the idea that staff rewards only people they like, their friends or just the people they are dating with karma is unfortunately a fair criticism. 

It used to be a fair criticism, for sure. Nowadays many players earn their first karma for longevity within six months, and new active players generally get up to two karma within a year. I see a lot of players who have earned their karma before the current review process, often 7-10+ years ago, and in many cases it is vague as to how they got that karma at best. I feel there are many low-karma players who deserve to be notched up and a few high-karma players that deserve, at the least, a review under the current guidelines. The question really becomes how staff can do this in a way that is fair for everyone.

I encourage anyone who is concerned about their karma level to put in a review and ask for feedback. That said, if you don't trust in the process enough to do even that then it's difficult to help.

Emphasis mine

[Majikal]

There are people with 8 I think deserve none. There are people with none I think deserve 8. We all have different opinions.

It's hard to notice everyone and give props where it's do but I think since the change in karma reviews it's been a lot more balanced across the board, ask for karma, make a few statements about why you feel you might be deserving, all staff comment. It's about as close to a fair trial as you can get. Back in the day you just had to rub one staffer the right or wrong way and your karma would swing way up or way down. Now is much better.

People that had lots of karma prior to the change in how karma works didn't get stripped and re-evaluated because it just would have upset players more often than not. However, if you fuck up you very well might get re-evaluated to today's karma standards.

[Nergal]

It's more of a natural cut-off from the way the categories are designed and the way players fit into them (not every player is great at everything or even gets the chance to demonstrate certain criteria, e.g. leadership).

[Case]

I might be the only person who's got karma for hacking the game 

Karma is tricky though. I agree that there should be a kind of trust based progression, and staff have said the current point system is against criteria (beyond what we see), but it does make it harder for off peaks and people with inconsistent play to be rated properly. People also take karma very personally, and I assume most people feel they deserve more regardless of how self aware that is.

I'm not sure if the current karma locked options array makes much sense with spec apps, or that all of the options are costed correctly. 8 karma is pretty arbitrary also. Are spec apps even relevant any more?

[BadSkeelz]

I'm not sure if the current karma locked options array makes much sense with spec apps, or that all of the options are costed correctly. 8 karma is pretty arbitrary also. Are spec apps even relevant any more?

I think so. They allow people who've gotten to 4 and 5 karma to apply for the really tricky roles - muls, sorcerers, psions. I imagine playing those roles and playing them well is a good way to prove you're responsible enough for that extra point of karma... Though once you hit 5 karma I think karma becomes kind of meaningless after that. Unless you want to make a mul with an extended subguild.

The same logic applies to people with less karma, really. Spec-apps let you play roles that might be out of your normal limit and give you a chance to prove you're responsible enough to be trusted with them. This is particularly true for the magick subguilds and half-giants; I don't think there's a lot of karma to be won by playing a Master Potter responsibly. (Nor do I think you should need karma to play one in the first place, but I digress)

[SuchDragonWow]

I would like to suggest documentation that details what staff will limit or deny karma for.  And I'm not just talking about pointing to the rules.  If something like this already exists, mea culpa.

[BadSkeelz]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Karma

ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more complicated, powerful and RP challenging roles to players. Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player's:

   Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced by playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
   Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
   Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to show that they are really involved in the game world, and also enriching the game world for other players.

I don't think there's a list of "If you do X, we won't give you karma. If you do Y, we won't give you karma."

There's a few things that maybe could be more clearly stated - respect the virtual world (and virtual NPCs) is a big part of the "acting responsibly with the code," I think. Not being combative with staff or other players falls under exhibiting a "Degree of maturity and responsibility as a roleplayer." Learning when not to use the code to your advantage, even when you mechanically can, is also a big part of acting responsibly.

I hope this isn't coming across as snarky.

[Asmoth]

I stopped for gas outside Cedar Point after a few exchanges with staff on this subject so I'll chime in and I'm guessing they may delete this because I don't think it will shine them in a good light.

So I put in a karma request, I have one and hardly play d elves because it can be awesome or boring depending on the current time of the tribe and I don't want to roll one up, find out there is one other tribemember and store. So I hardly use the Karma thing.

However after I saw all these notes about first rp karma and second rp karma and all that I asked in a question why I never get those? Is there something specific about my roleplay they don't like etc etc and other things I know I can't get into here.

In response I got this...

Frankly?  Because you're a nuisance in the OOC sense.  We're not obligated to give you karma if you make our lives difficult, even if you're the world's best RP'er. 

From a producer...

So when I get home in front of a real PC and not a iPhone I'll file a staff complaint.

My feeling is Karma is unfairly meted out, has been for years and probably will be for years.  Shit happens I guess.

[SuchDragonWow]

I think my natural inclination is to just believe people will complain and my first thoughts in this thread reflect that.  I've suggested before, here and elsewhere, that the karma review is a better process.  But I had to wonder if my lazy attitude towards karma was because I have more than what I need.  Could staff elaborate on whether there is a correlation between GDB tomfoolery and karma restriction?  How objective is the process?  I'm curious, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Riev]

Karma is the staff's level of trust that you're going to need very little of their assistance and time in order to accomplish things. It is how they judge you to be someone who treats the game in such a way that the "virtual" world doesn't need to come alive. As thanks, they allow us to play a more powerful character.

Karma AWARDS need a real revamping, but the idea behind Karma is pretty legit. I hate it. I'll never ask for karma, especially when I've had Producer+ get on me for something I absolutely didn't do, even after explaining why they saw what they saw. I generally see "the virtual world's reaction" less as a supportive storytelling role, and more of a "staff meting out punishment" role. But the more they have to animate the world in response to someone's actions, the less time they can TRY to be a supportive role.

My heart bleeds for staff awarding karma, and also I hope you all get blasted off to the Vestric Orbital Space Station.

[Case]

I stopped for gas outside Cedar Point after a few exchanges with staff on this subject so I'll chime in and I'm guessing they may delete this because I don't think it will shine them in a good light.

So I put in a karma request, I have one and hardly play d elves because it can be awesome or boring depending on the current time of the tribe and I don't want to roll one up, find out there is one other tribemember and store. So I hardly use the Karma thing.

However after I saw all these notes about first rp karma and second rp karma and all that I asked in a question why I never get those? Is there something specific about my roleplay they don't like etc etc and other things I know I can't get into here.

In response I got this...

Frankly?  Because you're a nuisance in the OOC sense.  We're not obligated to give you karma if you make our lives difficult, even if you're the world's best RP'er. 

From a producer...

So when I get home in front of a real PC and not a iPhone I'll file a staff complaint.

My feeling is Karma is unfairly meted out, has been for years and probably will be for years.  Shit happens I guess.

Why would being stressful/annoying/making busywork or drama for staff be irrelevant in a decision about staff trust in you? Nobody wants to staff players that make staffing unfun or tiresome. Giving that player more powerful IG options sounds like a recipe for more stress.

[Asmoth]

Because asking how to get that sweet rp karma everyone else is getting is annoying?  Should I not ask to join clan forums when I get into a clan. I'm so annoying!

And answering a few requests is super hard work? Typing, gets me everytime too!

[SuchDragonWow]

So this guy is clearly obnoxious.  Is he limited from getting karma because of that?

[Lizzie]

Because asking how to get that sweet rp karma everyone else is getting is annoying?  Should I not ask to join clan forums when I get into a clan. I'm so annoying!

And answering a few requests is super hard work? Typing, gets me everytime too!

Belittling staff on the forum is an example of "what makes you annoying on an OOC level" and greatly reduces any respect anyone could ever have in you, or any amount of trustworthiness they could ever have in you. That's one of the ways to earn karma: don't be an OOC pest or drama-queen on the GDB or elsewhere. The more time you demand the staff spend on you, the more likely they are to say "nope, no karma for you."

[Asmoth]

So this guy is clearly obnoxious.  Is he limited from getting karma because of that?

Yes, and in being a bit sarcastic because of the situation obviously.