Karma: is it no longer fulfilling its intended purpose?

[little chicken woman]

I'm curious now. How many more people would do mastercrafts if the floodgates were opened?

[Harmless]

 

Back on topic:

Karma for magick-subguilds: Makes lots of sense.
Karma for mundane extended subguilds: Makes less sense. The only issue, in my mind, is too many mastercrafts if the floodgates were opened. But then, what percentage of the active player base has access to ext crafting subguilds anyway? I'm guess it's a substantial percentage.

I agree! Maybe ESGs should just be a once per month (or less) thing and leave it at that. If you want to play a PC with more potential, then keep your last PC alive long enough to do it. This is what we had when everyone was special apping them to go along with a mundane guild anyway.

[John]

I disagree.  It makes perfect sense to me why ESG are behind a karma wall:

Staff trust is required for more codedly powerful things.
More codedly powerful things are behind a karma wall.
Extended subguilds are more codedly powerful things.
Extended subguilds are behind a karma wall.

Playing a race that is literally stronger than any other person in the game, but also gullible and easily fooled? I can see how new players might have a hard time not being tempted to play their RL smarts in disadvantageous situations. Being able to cast a vast array of spells that from a wide variety of guilds while being hated by every living thing in the world? I can see how new players might need to be dissuaded from playing that. Playing a guild that lets you conjure water from nothing while still being hated for this curse? I can see new players not handling that well. Being able to do all the cool things that Drovians, Nilazi and Elkrosians got to do? Definitely see not wanting to put that in the hands of a 1 day newbie.

Being able to play a warrior who can master craft a new item of clothing if they avoid getting killed and spend a lot of RL time increasing their ability in that skill? Not buying it.

Some of the extended subguilds may be combinable with certain classes in a way that in the hands of an inexperienced player could disrupt the game for the larger player base. Maybe. This is not universally true for all the extended subguilds and is definitely not true for skill bumps (do skill bumps still require karma?). As it is, karma is being used to give experienced players who trend to long lived characters a coded advantage over newbies. This most definitely is not what karma was intended to do but what it has transformed into with the half-implemented GCP system.

It could be that once the full guild changes are introduced anyone will be able to choose the various extended subguilds. But that is not the situation today and so therefore at this time karma is currently not being used solely to keep potentially game destabilising characters or difficult to roleplay characters that veer off the standard norm for Armageddon out of the hands of new players.

They've done the whole skill grinding thing and arent really all that excited about it. So when a character dies, the temptation exists to just go "fuck it" I best go see the sun IRL instead of starting anew with some new chara. Skill Bumps kind of alleviate this, by allowing a character start with greater skill levels, skipping some of the grind.

I am not aware of the purpose of karma being to allow veterans to "skip the boring parts". If this is it's official purpose then perhaps the karma page should be updated to reflect that? Personally, if anyone needs a skill bump it's not the veterans.

Setting aside the commonplace "mistrust" into staff judgements that's displayed so often on GDB.

I don't think observing that karma seems to have gained a new purpose it didn't always have is in any way displaying mistrust for staff.

The fact still remains that one of the biggest issues with the current karma system is that normal sub-guilds become obsolete after a person gets a bit of karma.

This will likely be rectified to a degree once the GCP gets introduced. It will have no affect on anyone who averages a character that lives longer then <insert period of time it takes for the GCP to renew>. But veterans don't always fit that category. Although I'd think they would typically fit it more than new players would.

[Warsong]

Skill bumps can remain karma-based, nobody should really care about that. It's the fact that to anyone without karma, their characters can never become as good as those of someone with karma. The ability to get stuff like master shield use on a ranger, advanced scan on a warrior, etc. -- these are things that make a character noticeably better than those without. And yet it isn't something that feels like it should require the same amount of karma as playing an elementalist, because it's not destructive power or a difficult role to handle, it's just about the value of a character.

[Desertman]

Eh, I have been around long enough at this point and played enough characters who "could" abuse the system and never did that if I haven't earned enough trust to have "all of the karma" by now, I never will.

I'm fine with that.

If I have to do more than I've already done to get it, then it's honestly a lot more effort than it is realistically even worth.

Moral to the story is if you feel you should have more karma, then submit a request for a karma review.

However, don't play to get karma because A) It will just make you an unhappy player, and B) If there was a secret to getting it everyone would already have it all.

The only player I ever knew OOC'ly who had "full karma" and showed me IRL as proof with me standing behind his computer received it in less than a RL year of play on a new account he created to "leave his past behind" on his other account.

Maybe that is the secret.

[hyzhenhok]

When I submitted a karma review and got bumped to 2 karma, I was given a pity bump based on longevity and told my account notes were too barren to justify further increases and I needed to get more attention from staff. I had been playing the game for years at this point. Some players don't have the playstyle or affinity for roles needed for rapid karma acquisition.

I think the system would be more fair if the system were biased in favor of giving veteran players increased access, unless there are strong s staff reasons to decline the increase, rather than the reverse that my experience implies is the rule. The standard of review should be "have you played any roles that would give us any insight to how trustworthy you are (basically, roles at or above your current karma limit)? Are there any player complaints and staff now indicating you have abused the game in those? If the answers to these equations are yes and no, presume the player can be trusted with 1 additional karma." You could still give accelerated karma to people who demonstrate their trustworthiness as in the current system, and a lot of the feelings of unfairness would be mitigated.

[Desertman]

I see two possible systems:

1) A system based on staff noticing you, wanting to watch you, and giving you positive account notes. The staff can then review those notes and give you karma based on those notes. (Our current system.)

2) A system based on your longevity and a lack of recent negative account notes.

With the first system you are required to play in a way that makes staff watch you and take notice of you. You might be a great player who is completely trustworthy and who abuses NOTHING, but if you don't play in a way that makes staff want to watch you, they will NEVER KNOW, and you will not get karma for it.

With the second system you just have to play in a way that is fun for you and has drawn no negative ire from the staff. You don't have to be the type of player staff wants to watch play to get karma. You just have to be the type of player who doesn't do things to draw negative attention.


The current system dictates in a lot of ways that only certain types of players get karma. The ones who have played in a way that got attention that then garnered account notes or staff approval based on said attention.


The latter system would reward players for not fucking up.

"Hey, has this guy been around and playing regularly for 5+ RL years and not gotten any horrible account notes? Well, he isn't super enjoyable to watch and might not play in a way I like personally so that I do WANT to watch him....but he is obviously capable of playing for a long time and being trusted to not do things so bad he gets negative notes.".


The system we use now seems almost entirely geared towards rewarding only those players we have a personal reason to want to watch and review at length.

You might get a couple of "pity points" as someone called them previously, but you will never get high end karma for just being a good player who doesn't screw up and doesn't abuse the system. (Which should be the only thing that matters, but isn't.)

[Zoan]

Good points, Dman. One should be considered capable of higher roles if you're acknowledging the world, not being a celebrity.

[Asmoth]

I know one surefire way to make sure it's transparent and evenly dealt with.  Though I know it will never happen.

Make Karma awards a part of the weekly update:

AccountName was awarded first Karma point for longevity.
AccountName was awarded fifth Karma for leadership.

This would, I think, make people more aware to the process and take away some of the mystery.  Plus the people who aren't getting it could reach out to those who are and learn from them, you know, let the Karma heavies lead by example.

Not to mention it would make the visibility so that any type of Favoritism would be easy to spot.  Keeping everyone honest.

(I am aware that staff would never do anything like this, this is a "it would be nice" post.)

[Jihelu]

Better idea.
We only show it when people lose karma or would.


"Jihelu would have lost karma but alas he is at zero, it would have been for shitmugging nobles again"

[Beethoven]

Yeah, staff won't do that, but if you think it'd be helpful, there's no rule against anyone here sharing what their karma level is, how long it took to earn it, and what it was awarded for.

[valeria]

... This would, I think, make people more aware to the process and take away some of the mystery.  Plus the people who aren't getting it could reach out to those who are and learn from them, you know, let the Karma heavies lead by example. ...

In the interests of transparency, what I have:



How I got there isn't rocket surgery.  It's basically the same advice I consistently give and that people give here:

I consistently submitted for account notes and karma reviews, even though I never really cared how much karma I have, since I don't really care for playing magickers.  The leadership and cultural understanding points, I got on sponsored roles.  But I actually enjoy playing leaders and sponsored roles so I've tended to gravitate toward those when I'm "free" anyway.

I've tried to consistently play my characters to the documentation.  I think, feel, write bios.  I note in reports when they're behaving against expectations or documentations and why.  I tell staff in advance what I'm planning and give them as much information as I possibly can.  That ties into...

I've try to give staff and other players the benefit of the doubt.  When I've failed and made a mess of things, I've apologized.  I haven't always been perfect.  I've gotten into arguments with staff, most recently a knock down/drag out fight in 2014 or 2015 with Talia about one of my sponsored roles, for which I submitted staff complaints that got resolved by Nyr.  When I calmed down and took a step back, it was clear that the situation was partially my fault, so I apologized and untwisted my panties.

I don't talk OOCly with other players the vast majority of the time.  I'm guilty slipping a little at some APMs, particularly when it comes to telling old character stories, but I don't seek out OOC information or spread it.  I don't make characters to play with other people.  To the contrary, I actively avoid playing with people when I know who they're playing because I don't want my like of them as people to bleed into how my characters react.

I've contributed countless hours to the game and I like helping out in any way I can.  I'm always there for typos, bug reports, website suggestions, helping (though the helper chat doesn't work for me any more because of rural internet reasons, I still answer emails), etc.  But I've never been on staff and I never will apply because the mystery of the game is one of the main things I love about Armageddon, and I know that having to deal with you shits would scar me.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer any more questions if you want to reach out.

[Riev]

Added 1 karma, making 1 total, for happy 1 year anniversary
(almost) -  5/24/07.
Set karma to 2, Been a year, no bad notes, lets see what
they do. -  6/30/08.
Added 1 karma, making 3 total, for I'm impressed with his
grasp of and performance with a Jihaen/northern templar -  5/21/10.
Set karma
to 2, Rebelled from the clan and then suicided his leader PC because he didn't
want to wait for storage. -  9/06/11.
Set karma to 1, Docking 1 point for
active involvement on jcarter forums.  He has agreed to stop posting there. 
This can be regained in 6 months provided there are no other issues. - 
5/30/13.

In the interest of transparency. Been playing since 2004-2005ish. The suicide TOTALLY deserved a lack of karma, I got drunk and didn't want to wait a week+ because the only staff capable of handling the request was on vacation.

I asked for these notes in 2014. You'll note I had no other issues, and no "regained" karma.

I suppose asking for more karma every 6 months is how you gotta do it.

[Harmless]

I read the above, felt encouraged, and submitted a karma review request.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Set karma to 1, see how he does with it - 1/02/05.
Set karma to 2, Going back and forth on this b/c of the recent negative note, (7/6/05) but decided to go ahead with it. - 8/12/05.
Set karma to 0, SEems like he's been doing ok for a little while. - 8/02/06.  ( Whaaaa )
Set karma to 3, Seems like he's been doing ok for a little while. - 8/02/06.  ( Go home staff, you drunk. )
Set karma to 4, Based on what I saw with Tekri, I trust this player and think he can bring a lot to the role. - 4/05/07.
Set karma to 5, Good play with Keoni - 8/15/09.
Set karma to 6, to match assessment - 9/03/12.
Set karma to 7, Assessed at 1x logenvity, 2x rp, 1x communication, 1x racial/cultural, 1x magick, 1x contributions. - 3/10/15.


Most of this was from before they had a system to do their karma reviews. From what I recall it kind of went like this:
1 & 2 - I got by sending in an email basically saying "Hey guys, I think I'm doing good. Can I have karma to try something new?"  I don't think they had karma reviews yet. Guess I was ahead of the game?
3 - I put in a Special app for a HG and they never yanked the karma back. Probably should've because I vaguely recall mudsexing an elf or something. What else is a 16 year old going to do with a baseball bat sized dick?
4 - I played a 13 year old warrior in the AOD with pitiful stats. I guess staff took pity on me? But it was an active character with constant communication.
5 - Keoni sucked. He was probably one of my most regretted characters, but whateves.
6 - I think this must have been from when the review system was first put in place.
7 - I requested a karma review and I think they went back over my notes and compiled this from the comments.

I don't agree with the sentiment that hawking silk pants is a requirement for karma. I've never applied for a sponsored role in my life (with the exception of the gith role call, which I didn't get) and never played a clanned character past like the private/trooper/cadet level. Also, I probably only put in reports for like 1 in 10 of my characters (the other 9 don't do anything noteworthy, really). I don't think I'm what most people expect from a high-karma player. (Maybe that's a flaw of the system.)

I really do think that the key is communication with the staff. If you're new and you've played long enough to get a grasp on the world, then say so in a request. If you think something you did deserves consideration, plead your case. You can do all the nuanced and flowery RP you want, but at the end of the day there's like 200 of us and a dozen of them, so staff probably isn't going to see it unless you show it to them. I've seen a lot of players complain that staff is limiting them or telling them how to play their character. I don't believe that staff has the right to tell you how your character would behave in a given situation (within reason), but when I see stuff like this I tend to think that it's a failure to communicate.

So for instance, I played a HG once who would try to teach his own philosophy to others and counter their logic when they tried to change his mind. He was never successfully tricked into doing something he didn't want to do, or hurting / helping someone he otherwise would not have. (Not that he couldn't be, just that nobody ever figured out how.) Looking at his behavior a scene at a time, he would probably seem like a horrible HG. But I did have a strong concept and reasons, and I explained them to the staff in a couple character reports. And so I was able to play an anti-docs HG who netted this account note (my most prized staff kudos):
Shlom was one of the best-played HGs I've ever seen, and an excellent mage as well. Awesome reporting, awesome RP. - 8/19/12

[Armaddict]

It should also be noted (hopefully this is encouraging) that not everyone is so far ahead of newer people in karma.

I only have 4.  So don't assume that everyone talking about it are people who have already hit the max and are trying to keep you from getting there.

[Beethoven]

I have 5 karma. 1x longevity, 2x RP, 1x magick, 1x communication. Last time I checked my account notes were pretty sparse so there isn't much to say on that front. There are probably more now; I'm afraid to look.

I got my first point for putting on my tryhard pants with my first PC. I guess staff noticed that this newbie was really doing her damndest to RP. I think I may have also been playing in the same clan as a staff avatar, which probably helped with the getting noticed part. So my first point was in RP, not longevity.

Eventually I spec-apped an unmanifested Vivaduan in Luir's. I had him vomit water everywhere while no PCs were around, and put up a rumor on the Storm's End tavern board. I got noticed for this, I guess, and Morgenes awarded me 2 karma points, one for longevity, I suppose, and the other a magick RP point. I was at 3 for a long time as I played off and on.

When I finally bucked up and asked for my account notes for the first time (this was right before karma review got separated from account notes requests) they went ahead and set my karma to 4, my second RP point. Adhira mentioned that they wanted to see how I did in my sponsored role, and if I was good about regularly keeping staff informed I could earn a point for communication. When I stored/killed off my sponsored role, I put in a karma review request (they were now separate) and asked for that karma point, citing examples about how I worked hard to be communicative and to work with staff, and it was awarded.

I was told that the 6th point typically takes a long time to earn and I'd have to learn more about the world and such before being awarded it, so I haven't put in another karma review request since then. Maybe after another year or so. I don't want to seem like I'm impatient after they specifically told me it'd be a while.

A lot of people say they don't care about karma. I myself do care, probably more than I should. I think it's because I'm insecure and always feel like I'm doing something wrong, and getting recognition from staff makes me actually feel good about my play for once. I probably don't deserve the 5 I have as much as a lot of people who are lower karma, but I'm still proud of the work that I put in.

Whenever I got karma, it seems like I did something to call attention to myself and to my play. I play a lot of short-lived nobodies, have only played one true leader ever, and am a serial storer, so it's not like I'm making a huge splash, but in some way or another I often seem to make myself known to staff, if hardly ever to other players.

[Pale Horse]

I admit, I'm leery of announcing how much karma I've gotten, but since everyone seems to be handling it well and offering encouraging advice...

I have 7 karma, gained over..14..15 years?  The vast majority of mine was earned long before the current karma evaluation went in and I'm not too sure what triggered the earliest awards beyond "played for a while, hasn't broken anything, +1 karma."

I can say that one or two of my points were awarded for special apping a guild that was above my current level and working to play it to how I thought the rules and game world would have it be played and then Staff at the time let me keep it as I'd proven I wasn't going to abuse the position, power or IG realities.

That's not to say I didn't/don't make mistakes or have run counter to the "niceties" of Zalanthan society.  I'm by far not a perfect player, my character reports are spotty in frequency and I feel incredibly rusty after my long break, but to everyone who may be feeling discouraged, hang in there.  The methods for gaining Karma now-a-days is, IMO, a superior method to what it was when I first started playing.  At the very least, it's more consistent.

Request karma reviews to get Staff attention and just keep trying your best and if your "best" doesn't seem to be getting you anywhere, go back through the rules, FAQs and whatnot.  I've had to adjust my own ideas of what is "best" to better fit the reality of the game world and I think it's made me a stronger player in the end.  Communication with Staff is key and, dare-I-say-it, putting your own ideas of what is right/wrong/owed aside and being willing to see someone else's point of view and how you just might not be in the "right."

Edit: I just went back and looked through my account requests.  Apparently, I haven't requested my account notes since 2009...I'm a little nervous about what they may say, now.

[Is Friday]

Set karma to 2 -  9/03/07.
Set karma to 1 - 
9/03/07.
Set karma to 2, seems about due -  4/23/08.
Set karma to 1, Due to
botched special role w/ Ueka, suicided and looked for new roles before even
starting / telling clan staff -  6/08/08.
Set karma to 2, ACTUALLY, waiting to
here a response on my email, since they have some positive notes, want to be
sure this wasn't a misunderstanding -  6/08/08.
Set karma to 0, Ignores clan
documentation, fucks up special roles, gives paper-thin reports, leaves vital
information out of any report that is given, and is generally a bad example
for newbs. -  5/08/09.
Set karma to 1, Granted back 1 karma, as they have
earned this through positive comments -  5/22/09.
Set karma to 2, The player
helped to guide conversation away from IC information during the oregon APM
tele-chat on 3 occasions.  Please see my comments above on this date. - 
8/10/09.
Set karma to 3, Took the restrictions and such of Kadian Junior
Trader in great stride, and was very responsible about it. -  8/21/10.
Set
karma to 4, as per notes -  1/29/12.
Set karma to 5, point for communication -
8/07/14.

I made a big long post with my account note shit at some point but I can't be fucked to find it. I've been karma wiped before. I got denied my 6th point of karma this last go around because I got into it with a certain staff member in an unprofessional way.

[Asmoth]

I might request my notes sometime, but honestly until recently they were all negative I'm sure. So that's sorta like saying, hey can you punch me in the stomach so I remember what it feels like?

I have a karma review pending and I'm hoping to start going in the right direction as I've been at 1 karma for years. I'll see how that goes and then maybe request my notes.

[Warsong]

I can't stand the thought of asking for karma.

[BadSkeelz]

I can't stand the thought of asking for karma.

The worst that happens is they say "not yet," and offer you suggestions.

Unless you got 8 way back when and have spent your time since watching mudsexers, like Jingo has.

[Tuannon]

Always ask for Bard, Karma is so Season 2..

Seriously though I think I have asked for account notes once, didn't like the wall of text and never bothered again. But then again, I only ever played or tried for one sponsored role and that was when Naiona was still on staff.

[burble]

I have 3 karma - 2 from a long lived char (longevity and communication). 1 from when the extended subguilds came out and I sent in a request saying I'd like to be able to play those and basically I wasn't all bad since I didn't knowingly cavort with breeds or magic users. I've never requested notes.

I only play indies (rebelled both times I've been in a clan).
I use the char reports and bios to describe motivations: PK Alert - my char is now totally hating X and would take an opportunity to put them in the grave or my char is fond of X so is kindly disposed to group Y.

Show that you treat the game world with respect (the world, not necessarily other pc's) by communicating with staff and you'll have karma in no time.
I think it is an important distinction to show those who are trying to play in the world vs those who are just racking up exp on a mud.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I might request my notes sometime, but honestly until recently they were all negative I'm sure.

I wonder if there should be a statute of limitations (or whatever you call it) on bad account notes? Like 2 - 3 years and negative notes are forgiven. (Deleted in your next karma review.)