3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[Lizzie]

I could be wrong but, aren't elementals who have to gather to get mana called sorcerers?

Are they CALLED sorcerers? Possibly, ICly. OOCly though, no. They're not the same thing. Elementalists are limited by the element as to which spells they can access. Sorcerers don't have that limitation.

This is going to be very VERY possibly borderline.
Icly I've only heard of defilers/sorceres in general referred to as ashlayers.
I imagine if elementalists could gather from ONLY THEM SELVES it would be treated as just a 'weird magick thing' and not with as much scrutiny as a defiler.

I stated as such in my idea; that elementalists were required to gather, and sorcerers would have an option to defile (implying that elementalists would -not- have that option).

[Jihelu]

The problem with that is I think gathering from anywhere will get Tektolnes on your ass in the city.
So a code change would need to happen.

[Dar]

You're going into a slightly IC territory there, I think. There's a significant aspect there that is not publicly known. Or am I wrong? Maybe it's in a helpfile.

[Jihelu]

You're going into a slightly IC territory there, I think. There's a significant aspect there that is not publicly known. Or am I wrong? Maybe it's in a helpfile.

From the help file

   The rulers of most centers of civilization make no distinction between
preservers and defilers, and sorcerers of any sort are strictly outlawed.
Gathering may alert the templars to a sorcerer's presence.

[Dar]

You're going into a slightly IC territory there, I think. There's a significant aspect there that is not publicly known. Or am I wrong? Maybe it's in a helpfile.

From the help file

   The rulers of most centers of civilization make no distinction between
preservers and defilers, and sorcerers of any sort are strictly outlawed.
Gathering may alert the templars to a sorcerer's presence.

these helpfiles are bullshit. Way to spoil a SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!!

[Delirium]

Good lord, if elementalists could gather they would be insanely more powerful in the long game. I have to vote no.

I didn't suggest that they *could* gather. I suggested that they MUST gather. As in - no gather = no mana = no cast.

Yeah, no, I understood. And it would make them insanely powerful. No thanks.

[Synthesis]

Elementalists gathering is a stupid idea.  Why are we even on this tangent?

[Lizzie]

The problem with that is I think gathering from anywhere will get Tektolnes on your ass in the city.
So a code change would need to happen.

I'm suggesting that full elementalists would, by design, have to be rogues.

Get rid of gemmed entirely - close down the temples, have a riot and blast the elementalist quarter to rubble.

For "IC reasons" if an elementalist were needed by "IC info" to become "IC info," they could be enslaved (aka force-stored and become VNPCs) and cloistered in some virtual building in the templar's quarter.

Let Oash be the risk-takers who make use of rogues on the sly, using agents with clandestine meetings outside the city to acquire/produce/accomplish whatever it is the Oash noble needs to acquire/produce/accomplish. Might even make the Plantation more useful, if that was the only "safe" place that Oash could meet directly with an elementalist. And of course Oash would know that Elementalists are not sorcerers so in their own macabre crazy fantastical logical minds, they would be justified in doing so.

[Lizzie]

Good lord, if elementalists could gather they would be insanely more powerful in the long game. I have to vote no.

I didn't suggest that they *could* gather. I suggested that they MUST gather. As in - no gather = no mana = no cast.

Yeah, no, I understood. And it would make them insanely powerful. No thanks.

I'm telling you from personal actual experience - that it doesn't make them insanely powerful. It LIMITS their power immensely. I was able to defile, and I tried for weeks to *not* do that. It was stupendously difficult, and I finally gave in. By the time the event occurred that ceased my character's natural mana regen and forced her to gather, she was already maxed out. But just surviving by preserving exclusively, without ready access to any spells outside her own element, was daunting.

[Delirium]

I can't really argue with you without going into code specifics, so I'm just going to be glad that this will never happen.

[Lizzie]

I can't really argue with you without going into code specifics, so I'm just going to be glad that this will never happen.

And I'm trying to tell you - not even trying - flat out stating - it DID happen. With my PC. And I didn't become insanely overpowerful. I was already a maxed-out whiran, pre-nerf, and was NOT insanely overpowerful. I'll give you this: the fact that I was ultimately able to defile DID make the potential for insane overpowerfulness to occur. But prior to knowing I was able to defile - no, what you think would happen (whatever that thing is, I have no idea) - didn't happen.

[Delirium]

Dude, I've played magickers and sorcerers too.

I think it's a terrible idea.

Sorry we don't agree.

[Raptor_Dan]

what you think would happen (whatever that thing is, I have no idea) - didn't happen.

snicker

[Dresan]

what you think would happen (whatever that thing is, I have no idea) - didn't happen.

snicker

I don't often agree or like lizzie's ideas, and there are times when her ideas feel borderline offensive. That said, this type of post isn't helpful to the conversation either.

[Raptor_Dan]

I'll refrain from making jokes on the GDB. From now on, all of my posts will be helpful. Super helpful.

[yousuff]

I'll refrain from making jokes on the GDB. From now on, all of my posts will be helpful. Super helpful.

At risk of this board becoming a hugbox, quoting someone and just responding snicker is a bit derisive

[Raptor_Dan]

I thought I was pointing out how ludicrous (so unreasonable it's amusing) it was to say 'I have no idea what you expect, but it didn't happen. I'm not against Lizzie, I like a lot of her posts and ideas, that comment though, I thought was worthy of making fun of (i.e. derisive). I legitimately thought what I was doing was obvious, but I make this mistake a lot. I also don't know what you mean by 'at risk of this board becoming a hugbox,' perhaps because of the way it's phrased.

I'll make this short so I don't derail too much. Using jokes is a great way (for me, and historically, others) to point out logical fallacies and highlight unreasonable behavior, imho. I feel it keeps the person doing it from sounding like a zealous pedant. Maybe not.

Last post on this thread, until some idea or comment is presented that I can contribute something of respectable value towards. I don't want to burn out Raptor_Dan's already limited appeal.

[Lizzie]

I thought I was pointing out how ludicrous (so unreasonable it's amusing) it was to say 'I have no idea what you expect, but it didn't happen. I'm not against Lizzie, I like a lot of her posts and ideas, that comment though, I thought was worthy of making fun of (i.e. derisive). I legitimately thought what I was doing was obvious, but I make this mistake a lot. I also don't know what you mean by 'at risk of this board becoming a hugbox,' perhaps because of the way it's phrased.

I'll make this short so I don't derail too much. Using jokes is a great way (for me, and historically, others) to point out logical fallacies and highlight unreasonable behavior, imho. I feel it keeps the person doing it from sounding like a zealous pedant. Maybe not.

Last post on this thread, until some idea or comment is presented that I can contribute something of respectable value towards. I don't want to burn out Raptor_Dan's already limited appeal.

Actually I thought it was kinda funny. No offense taken Dan. After I posted it, and saw your little snicker, I thought - wow that really didn't come out so good afterall. I knew what I meant, I just didn't convey it. Basically - that Delirium was making assumptions about what -might- happen -if- elementalists had to gather their mana from themselves only, and couldn't just regenerate it over time. I was telling her there's nothing to assume, because it's already happened at least once, and there was no "overpowered" stuff going on as a result. It was a fairly long, drawn-out process, frustrating on an IC level but very rewarding from an OOC perspective because of the plotline that led up to and progressed from it. My PC ended up defiling afterall, but only after a period when she had to refrain, and then *I* the player didn't know that she could, and didn't think to try it for a couple of weeks. It's definitely not for anyone wanting the fast-track to power, especially if you can only gather self and not defile. So whatever Delirium thinks would happen to make them overpowered - didn't happen, because the overpowering thing didn't happen. On an already-maxed pre-nerf whiran.

[Raptor_Dan]

Hugbox achieved.   

[Synthesis]

I thought I was pointing out how ludicrous (so unreasonable it's amusing) it was to say 'I have no idea what you expect, but it didn't happen. I'm not against Lizzie, I like a lot of her posts and ideas, that comment though, I thought was worthy of making fun of (i.e. derisive). I legitimately thought what I was doing was obvious, but I make this mistake a lot. I also don't know what you mean by 'at risk of this board becoming a hugbox,' perhaps because of the way it's phrased.

I'll make this short so I don't derail too much. Using jokes is a great way (for me, and historically, others) to point out logical fallacies and highlight unreasonable behavior, imho. I feel it keeps the person doing it from sounding like a zealous pedant. Maybe not.

Last post on this thread, until some idea or comment is presented that I can contribute something of respectable value towards. I don't want to burn out Raptor_Dan's already limited appeal.

Actually I thought it was kinda funny. No offense taken Dan. After I posted it, and saw your little snicker, I thought - wow that really didn't come out so good afterall. I knew what I meant, I just didn't convey it. Basically - that Delirium was making assumptions about what -might- happen -if- elementalists had to gather their mana from themselves only, and couldn't just regenerate it over time. I was telling her there's nothing to assume, because it's already happened at least once, and there was no "overpowered" stuff going on as a result. It was a fairly long, drawn-out process, frustrating on an IC level but very rewarding from an OOC perspective because of the plotline that led up to and progressed from it. My PC ended up defiling afterall, but only after a period when she had to refrain, and then *I* the player didn't know that she could, and didn't think to try it for a couple of weeks. It's definitely not for anyone wanting the fast-track to power, especially if you can only gather self and not defile. So whatever Delirium thinks would happen to make them overpowered - didn't happen, because the overpowering thing didn't happen. On an already-maxed pre-nerf whiran.

There's a difference between a rogue mage being forced to 'gather self' and a gemmed mage being forced to 'gather self.'  It's relatively easy for gemmed mages to team up and create super-squads.  Do you really want a gemmed warrior/devastation krathi dropping 4 mon area-effects in a matter of moments while his warrior/healing Vivaduan battle-buddy is acting as a mana battery?

[Majikal]

There's a difference between a rogue mage being forced to 'gather self' and a gemmed mage being forced to 'gather self.'  It's relatively easy for gemmed mages to team up and create super-squads.  Do you really want a gemmed warrior/devastation krathi dropping 4 mon area-effects in a matter of moments while his warrior/healing Vivaduan battle-buddy is acting as a mana battery?

I'll totes paly tank/heal for warlock aoe dps.

Can't wait to try it in next Armageddon raid.

[Lizzie]

I thought I was pointing out how ludicrous (so unreasonable it's amusing) it was to say 'I have no idea what you expect, but it didn't happen. I'm not against Lizzie, I like a lot of her posts and ideas, that comment though, I thought was worthy of making fun of (i.e. derisive). I legitimately thought what I was doing was obvious, but I make this mistake a lot. I also don't know what you mean by 'at risk of this board becoming a hugbox,' perhaps because of the way it's phrased.

I'll make this short so I don't derail too much. Using jokes is a great way (for me, and historically, others) to point out logical fallacies and highlight unreasonable behavior, imho. I feel it keeps the person doing it from sounding like a zealous pedant. Maybe not.

Last post on this thread, until some idea or comment is presented that I can contribute something of respectable value towards. I don't want to burn out Raptor_Dan's already limited appeal.

Actually I thought it was kinda funny. No offense taken Dan. After I posted it, and saw your little snicker, I thought - wow that really didn't come out so good afterall. I knew what I meant, I just didn't convey it. Basically - that Delirium was making assumptions about what -might- happen -if- elementalists had to gather their mana from themselves only, and couldn't just regenerate it over time. I was telling her there's nothing to assume, because it's already happened at least once, and there was no "overpowered" stuff going on as a result. It was a fairly long, drawn-out process, frustrating on an IC level but very rewarding from an OOC perspective because of the plotline that led up to and progressed from it. My PC ended up defiling afterall, but only after a period when she had to refrain, and then *I* the player didn't know that she could, and didn't think to try it for a couple of weeks. It's definitely not for anyone wanting the fast-track to power, especially if you can only gather self and not defile. So whatever Delirium thinks would happen to make them overpowered - didn't happen, because the overpowering thing didn't happen. On an already-maxed pre-nerf whiran.

There's a difference between a rogue mage being forced to 'gather self' and a gemmed mage being forced to 'gather self.'  It's relatively easy for gemmed mages to team up and create super-squads.  Do you really want a gemmed warrior/devastation krathi dropping 4 mon area-effects in a matter of moments while his warrior/healing Vivaduan battle-buddy is acting as a mana battery?

There would be no gemmed mages that gather, because gathering is STILL considered sorcery by the known world and therefore anyone caught doing it would be instagibbed by the soldiers. Gather + gem = bad.

Gemmed subguilds = yes.
Gemmed full mages = no.

[Delirium]

It may not have been overpowered in your hands, but believe me, it could be. Even if limited to spells of a specific element.

Having had a maxed preserver and near-maxed sorcerer, you're just going to have to trust me on that.

[Iiyola]

The exception doesn't make the rule though. The fact not very many sorcs (preserver or the other kind) have been in the IC news (except maybe for 1 or  2 in the last 5 years) shows it's not terribly OP/abusable.

[Delirium]

No, that just means most of them keep an extremely low profile due to the lack of socialization opportunities for the cautious and intelligent.

Being an "open" sorc requires a level of near-max unstoppability and/or lots of solid allies.