Magick and its place in Arm

[RogueGunslinger]

I know what you're thinking, another thread on magick? Well, those are specific to other things. This one is more general, and I'm posting because Badzkeelz pointed out we should be asking ourselves what place magick has in the game. That is a good question because I don't think it's place is well represented by the playerbase.

Maybe certain magickers should be much more accepted. Vivaduans/Rukkians in the Byn, lest complete disgust or fear of the more useful and less destructive sorts. A rogue viv shouldn't have to fear being found out nearly as much as a rogue Krathi, for instance. I like low fantasy. I like magick being rare and powerful. I think that we can have both of those things without completely segregating magickers to only antagonistic or conflict-making roles.

[nauta]

Glad you made this branch thread, because I had an idea in my head for quite a while now, which is this:

What if we just got rid of the Gemmed?

It's radical, I know, but bear with me a bit.

o First, there are perennial claims that playing a gemmed mage isn't fun for certain kinds of people.  It is hard to get into plots, because, as gemmed, outsiders to Allanak won't want to deal with you, even if they would deal with a rogue, but as gemmed, insiders to Allanak won't want to deal with you.

o Second, there are the perennial claims that there are too many gemmed in the bar!  Magick is supposed to be rare, but it isn't, if there are gemmed IN THE CITY itself, or at least gemmed PCs in your bar.

How would it get implemented?  Two options:

1. Make the gemmed virtual, like Tuluk.  Every once in a while staff might have a role call for a gemmed, for, e.g., Oash or the Templarate.

2. Make the gemmed disappear through some event in toto from Allanak through some epic event.  Oash and the Templarate would have to hire secret gicks or something, give them secret passes or something.

Anyway, it's so radical I bet someone has proposed it -- I'm not wed to the idea, but I would be curious what other people thought.

[BadSkeelz]

I see the question first in terms of how societies address the concept of magick itself.

In Allanak, certain elementalists are sanctioned with the Gem. This isn't done out of charity by the Templarate. It's a very functional, practical, de-mystified approach to magick. You Gem Vivaduans because they can make water; you Gem Elkrosians and Krathis for their destructive abilities; Drovians and Whirans for espionage and subterfuge. For me, it's both the most familiar way of thinking of magic(k) but also one I really dislike. Call it too Hogwarty, too "5 man group LF healer+DPS", too bland. Nothing about it feels like Armageddon to me. Well, except for the grinding angst and misery.

Rogue mages aren't much better, as magick mostly appears to be seized upon as a tool to "allow" "villains" to exist. As if we need death rays to be villainous. To me it suggests more the faults of mundane skill acquisition (i.e. very hard) and the playstyles it encourages (i.e. very cautious). It's just easier and quicker to make a magicker more dangerous than a mundane.

Both Rogue and Gem approach magick from a functional standpoint.

My favorite approach to magick is the tribal approach. Mages aren't just mages in a tribe - they're shamans, warriors, leaders, characters. Nor is magick restricted to the Magick-guild PCs; the tribal mindsets are infused with the knowledge that Magick Exists and it will influence every aspect of your life. It's woven much more thoroughly in to the culture of the tribes so that when your shaman raises a spell, it isn't someone taking the easy way out to solve a problem - it's a leader of your tribe calling on your peoples' chosen element for aid. Magick is an intrinsic part of their culture and flavor, accessed by all members of the tribe, not just a tool for a chosen few.

[RogueGunslinger]

I am also a fan of tribal magick. It's inclusive, where where magick is elsewhere it's incredibly exclusionary. Maybe if Amos didn't suddenly loathe and fear his brother who just turned into a witch there could possibly be more room for enjoyable roleplay.

[BadSkeelz]

I suppose I should have added that I believe civilized commoners should hate and fear magick. It's part of what helps set tribal roles apart. The clash between civilized and heathen is one I enjoy.

[Rokal]

I know what you're thinking, another thread on magick? Well, those are specific to other things. This one is more general, and I'm posting because Badzkeelz pointed out we should be asking ourselves what place magick has in the game. That is a good question because I don't think it's place is well represented by the playerbase.

Maybe certain magickers should be much more accepted. Vivaduans/Rukkians in the Byn, lest complete disgust or fear of the more useful and less destructive sorts. A rogue viv shouldn't have to fear being found out nearly as much as a rogue Krathi, for instance. I like low fantasy. I like magick being rare and powerful. I think that we can have both of those things without completely segregating magickers to only antagonistic or conflict-making roles.

I completely agree, it even states in the documents that various types of mages are valued or less feared then others.

i dont think someone would be willing to drink gick water unless theyre about to die of thirst, but a vivaduan can save someone from injuries, toxins, all sorts of things.

the bolded part -its true, but not just on the players of the gick's side too, but on the mundane's side too. People seem to go to extremes of hatred over fear, over the littlest of things - i mean i know its fun to RP the gick hate and fear.

But i think one thing we need to look at is how people approach that - i mean, theres no real way to control anything people do, but discussing about it at the least IMO would help people get a possible common ground.

Gicks are my favorite role to play, and I totally support this discussion and trying to find magick's place in it.

personally, the biggest part of playing a gicker IMO is bringing the mystery and uncertainty, and unpredictability of magick to life for those mundanes that are there to experience you, without saturating the presence of magick, or -entirely sidelining a mundane by completely outshining them-

[Erythil]

I think this game's community stresses way too much over finding the 'proper' place of magic in the game world, and especially over how much mages should be repressed.

I think they are too repressed, and playing a non-iso non-tribal mage is often not fun because of it, and the entire game's culture surrounding magic is an over the top reaction to the supposed abuses of CAM about an IRL -decade- ago.  I think every clan should be able to hire a mage or two, and that mages should be more like nonhumans -- barred from leadership but still able to participate in most organizations.  If this greater visibility required a couple more anti-magic tools being available (protective amulets for normals or magical bomb collars for mages or something) then so be it.

This is a game where you live in the shadow of an immortal wizard king who can turn into a dragon, whose enemy is an immortal mind reading wizard, who has slain various other immortal wizards, and the wilderness is full of impossible megabeasts that are the result of a highly magical apocalypse.  A volcano rose and vanished in a hundred years because of a magic so powerful that no one comprehends it and it caused an extra MOON to pop into the sky.  This is a very very high fantasy world -- most of us just don't play people with magic power.  Trying to turn it into a low-fantasy game just because we play low-fantasy characters is not going to work.

[Rokal]

I think this game's community stresses way too much over finding the 'proper' place of magic in the game world, and especially over how much mages should be repressed.

I think they are too repressed, and playing a non-iso non-tribal mage is often not fun because of it, and the entire game's culture surrounding magic is an over the top reaction to the supposed abuses of CAM about an IRL -decade- ago.  I think every clan should be able to hire a mage or two, and that mages should be more like nonhumans -- barred from leadership but still able to participate in most organizations.  If this greater visibility required a couple more anti-magic tools being available (protective amulets for normals or magical bomb collars for mages or something) then so be it.

This is a game where you live in the shadow of an immortal wizard king who can turn into a dragon, whose enemy is an immortal mind reading wizard, who has slain various other immortal wizards, and the wilderness is full of impossible megabeasts that are the result of a highly magical apocalypse.  A volcano rose and vanished in a hundred years because of a magic so powerful that no one comprehends it and it caused an extra MOON to pop into the sky.  This is a very very high fantasy world -- most of us just don't play people with magic power.  Trying to turn it into a low-fantasy game just because we play low-fantasy characters is not going to work.

Yeah, I completely agree that mages are too opressed. I dont think that will change much ,and i've only played arm for two years, but I've figured out enough to know that the culture of hatred agaisnt magick isn't just the IC, its quite litereally OOC due to whatever the heck happened.

im not saying anyones at fault, it just seems to be the OOC culture right now.

I do think they SHOULD be oppressed, and the varying types of mages should be opressed more a less depending on what they are.

A krathi should have a much tighter leash then a vivaduan, ect..

[Case]

I've found tribal magick to be really fun.

Gemmed itself is a broken role. Whenever I've cracked it, and really made it work for me, the amount of effort it takes to both try and maintain magick theme and work with a bunch of ever changing faces - who all want to play superheroes and masters of magick and whatever, and seem a mix of half veterans, half newbs, with roleplay that's often way below other areas of the game, is torturous. If you show any scrap of leadership ability, everybody is looking to you to churn out fun for them. You may as well be a clan lead. It gets me down whenever I play a Gemmed, being honest. There's a culture of maxing out, and doing it ASAP. There's a lot of PCs bouncing from Nak in ways to try make the Templarate forget them, so they operate with impunity later (and lots of trying to avoid PC Templarate entirely, to some huge extremes). There's rarely mystery to it. Gemmed and non Gemmed alike mysteriously knowing all your grabbag of tricks, and all the various counters. You get treated like a person of Guild, rather than an individual character. Honestly, magick has the shittest RP around it on Armageddon unless it's a quality player really enforcing standards, or it's role constrained.

The role can't even be exemplified, as it has little documentation, no real scope for Gemmed to congregate and set basic standards, and very limited PC advancement beyond spamming up spells and hoping a Templar wants your element, or going off to fuck up some dudes. Gemmed contribute nothing as they stand.


I think magick RP for this game needs serious work. It has little to no use in the majority of the game's context, and when it does show up, it's a be-all-end-all that basically any player can access, regardless of talent for nuance and theme, and it's inevitably better than the majority of what mundanes can ever do. For little effort or development.

[Case]

Hell, I'd be over the moon if it was random from birth if you were a gicker, and it got triggered on you either automatically or by a staffer, eventually. Keep all the skills and whatever. Just slap on the elemental spells over the top.

Shit would be insanely cool. I'd love to see how that'd change the fabric of it all.

[Pale Horse]

So..here's some thoughts.  Fair warning, my post contains large amounts of hyperbole.

Arm. is supposed to be a "low-magick" setting, right?  A lot more focus on the "swash-and-buckle" vs. the "pewpewpew."

Thing is, the origin of the setting still has its roots in Dark Sun and the focus on adventuring where magick is a central part.  Its "Swash-buckle-pewpew."  The magick code is set up to favor "adventuring" and not so much for "role-playing."  Not that it's totally without its uses for role-play, but it is very much a "buff the group/person" and "slay the thing" sort of thing.

Why not de-power the power of lethality available to elementalists?  "Fireball" does 2d10 damage now instead of 4d20.  Replace some of the overtly magickal effect spells with something mundane and moving the "glowing balls of magick death" to higher end powers.  A Krathi having the power to light a torch vs. making a point of light on the end of a finger.  A Rukkian pulling a chunk of obsidian or basalt from the ground with a spell vs. summoning a rock guardian from the sand.  A Drovian manipulating shadows to give a bonus to the hide skill where someone might not have one vs. disappearing into the shadows like Grimskull from Skeleton Warriors.

An IG plot is then hatched where due to this sudden shift, the general populous of the cities turns against the gemmed and either enslaves them totally or kicks them out.  Not being the font of power they once were, the Templarate or Tek doesn't care; their purpose is over.  Magickers are now totally rogue or only accepted in small communities in the fringes of society and tribes.  They're the "an" to someone's "pro."

Groups of mages are no longer "power ranger" level dangerous, and now just dangerous because groups of mages have the combined ability and power to stand up to a group of well-armed Militia.  They can gather together out in the ass-end of no-where in the wastes without every witch hunter and bored templar starting a lynch mob to track them down because they're "there."  If they start getting too powerful in a central location, then something might be done by the powers that be.

Magickers get interaction in groups and can play their angsty selves like half-elves and muls, outcasts from greater society while still being useful to a degree that isn't "pewpewpew."  Their abilities enhance mundane efforts at low and mid-level ranges, with only the close-to-fully-branched and powerful magickers having overtly magickal signs and powers.

[BadSkeelz]

Gemmed contribute nothing as they stand.

I'd say it's worse than this. Gemmed get in the way of mundane contributions and the low fantasy most of us are trying to play out. Erythil is right in that the bones of the world are built on High Fantasy Magick, but that should be the background. Gemmed, in their current form, are a jarring, metagamey, disruptive out-of-place piece on the game board. It's like playing Cowboys and Indians, except one kid insists on being an Astronaut.

What are Gemmed suppose to be? What should be fun about their role, what should be challenging, and what should they contribute to the game?

[valeria]

I enjoy the current level of gemmed involvement in the game, and have for quite a while.  I haven't personally played one I can get into, but I don't think that means they need more involvement.  I've seen plenty of them on my characters that would be expected to have lots of involvement with gemmed (read: my templar) and basically none of them, other than the occasionally gemmed sitting in the Gaj, on any of my other characters in a good long while.  And that's how I like it.

[Bogre]

Magick and it's place in the world - I have been waiting for this topic. I love magickers, and playing mages, despite my pretty much miserable track record with accomplishing anything codedly wicked with them. But I love playing them, and the roleplay I get engaged with them (although often solo or fringe) I think is amazing. It suits my time constraints and playstyle perfectly.

So what do I want magick to be in the game world?

Varied.

I like mages so much because I think the twisting, warping bends of realities they represent allow such a breadth of character traits and archetypes. You can play any normal personality...who happens to be a mage, or you can play something completely bent and shaped by their element. For instance, a big inspiration for magickers are the sorcerers of the Black Company - the Ten Who Were Taken down to the squad mages, and also the tribe mages and imperial cadre mages of the Malazan Fallen, and they are rich in depth and flavor. Evil, good, in between. Powerful, weak, middling, competent, hedge.

I think magick is too focused on elementalists who can use spells. I'd like to see their repertoire increased, with a lot of range of mundane things and more ritualistic things that can be accomplished in tandem or in concert. Allow some rare and limited exploration into other reaches, strange new things, for those mages who become totally attuned to themselves. Not every mage has to get everything neat beyond the basic trees, but some variation at the end game would be interesting.

Shamanistic magick is something that can really be expanded in Armageddon. The elusive, ill-defined sort of magick that complements a tribe, rather than just being 'a tribe who lets Rukkians live'. Not that it doesn't have it's place - a Sun tribe, for example, having flame mages sort of makes sense, but it makes sense to be tailored rather than arbitrarily choosing elements for clans. How would it work codedly ? (It would probably need some code, ack!). But imagine if a Soh elf shaman gets ritual access to some sort of spirit magick - communing with the desert spirits, traveling underneath the sands like an anakore, being able to evoke the rending claws. Taking the eye of a vulture or crow to sweep above the plains.

I think more things, not less or removing abilities, is the way to go.

[Rokal]

Hell, I'd be over the moon if it was random from birth if you were a gicker, and it got triggered on you either automatically or by a staffer, eventually. Keep all the skills and whatever. Just slap on the elemental spells over the top.

Shit would be insanely cool. I'd love to see how that'd change the fabric of it all.

This would be the coolest thing ever.

Like, seriously, this sort of thing would be a game changer and a eyeopener, while all the same keeping magick rare and mysterious.

I can just imagine the kind of crazy plots that would stem from something like this happening!

[Erythil]

I'll agree that the Black Company is probably a pretty good example of how low fantasy gritty soldiers and super high fantasy spellcasters can work nicely side by side.

[wizturbo]

My two cents would be to permit magickers to join clans, in a limited capacity.  Much like the tribal shaman, there may only be 1 or 2 slots available for such a role in a clan at any time, with element restrictions.  Then handle their presence in the clan like any DM does in any table top game, by making content that's obviously geared to their role.  The clan Vivaduan is there to heal, provide water, and protect her clan.  Scale up encounters accordingly.  Will that role be important?  Sure, but no less important than the bad ass warrior whose doing all the killing, or the leader whose calling the shots.

Doing it in this controlled fashion will greatly limit the amount of game breaking, fun killing situations.  This is only true if you limit the number of magickers, and limit their ability to coordinate with multiple elements.  A single Vivaduan that tags along with the Byn can enhance an RPT and make it more fun, a Vivaduan and a Krathi at the same time however will make it the magicker show.  This is perhaps my biggest beef with House Oash.  If they have an active clan of mages, involving them in a plot immediately turns it into the magicker show because they have a wide array of elements available.  It's almost like having a sorcerer of old along with you, they become the center of everything.  This is okay, if it's a magick plot to begin with, but most plots are not magick-only plots.

Equally important, create clan specific rules and customs surrounding these magickers.  Things that create nuance in their roleplay.  What makes the tribal magickers cool roles is not that they're tribal, it's the structure around their role.  They have a purpose.  They have limitations.  They are part of something beside their own personal development.  The same circumstances could be made in many clans.

When I think of the Byn having a Vivaduan combat medic, Kurac having a resident Krathi to help crack down on rogue mages that visit their Outpost, or Kadius having a Rukkian gem finder,  these all seem like awesome roles that would enhance the game.  I think they would add interesting role play opportunities for all parties involved.  But...that's my two cents.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel otherwise.  That's kinda why this thread is pointless.  Everyone is going to to have their own idea on what magick's place is in Armageddon, and I doubt they're going to break into nice clean segments.  No way to please everyone, and no way not to piss off someone if a change is made...  So the perpetual stalemate will continue.

[Erythil]

I think wizturbo's idea of having 1 mage slot per clan, element-limited, would be a neat touch and add to the game.

[wizturbo]

I think wizturbo's idea of having 1 mage slot per clan, element-limited, would be a neat touch and add to the game.

I'd also add, that this mage slot doesn't necessarily have to be public knowledge in all cases.  The Vivaduan combat medic example for instance might be publicly known, whereas the Rukkian gem finder would not be.  But letting players know that OOCly there are clan supported roles for magickers, some of which are secret, some of which are not, would go a very long way in adding some purpose and direction for these roles, and also give magick a realistic place in the world with meaningful roleplay opportunities beyond the occasional light shows.

[BadSkeelz]

Having a viv on an RPT quickly turns it in to a WoW instance run, break for heal and mana.

[wizturbo]

Having a viv on an RPT quickly turns it in to a WoW instance run, break for heal and mana.

That's why the staff need to tailor the RPT to that to keep it fun.  There are countless ways clever staffers can make sure things don't become stale or contrived.

To be fair, things are already this way.  Take a break to let everyone recover stamina.  Take a break to let people heal from their wounds.  I don't think this is a valid reason to shoot the idea down...  But then again, your biases on this are as clear as mine.

And to be fair, the Vivaduan combat medic is probably the only example I've given where they even need to participate in an RPT situation.  The Guild Drovian may rarely be seen by anyone but the Guild boss at the time.  The Rukkian gem finder might be Kadius' dirty secret.  Neither of those roles need be at an RPT at all to exist and be interesting and fun.

[Case]

I wouldn't blame vivs for the health code being a weak simulation.

It's not like vivs can't be changed either.

[BadSkeelz]

Clan magickers should be PKed before every RPT lest they steal the glory and/or cause staff to ramp the difficulty up too much.

[Erythil]

Having a viv on an RPT quickly turns it in to a WoW instance run, break for heal and mana.

Break for stamina and bandages isn't any different.

[wizturbo]

Clan magickers should be PKed before every RPT lest they steal the glory and/or cause staff to ramp the difficulty up too much.

Right, that sounds like it would enhance the story immensely.

*wizturbo starts to daydream*

As the massive Gith army advances, rattling their bone spears against their shields, Runner Amos turns and stabs the Company's Vivaduan combat medic in the kidney with a poisoned dagger, exclaiming, "I won't have you steal my glory, magicker!".  

As the Vivaduan falls to his knees, dying, a Gith arrow pierces Amos' cheap leather collar and he collapses beside the witch, clutching at his throat as blood gushes out.  The irony of the situation does not escape First Trooper Malik, who lets out a grim, manic laugh as the sky darkens, and a volley of gith arrows descends on the mercenaries.

Yup...  That is a cool scene.  I'd be okay with that happening.