Magick and its place in Arm

[RogueGunslinger]

I know what you're thinking, another thread on magick? Well, those are specific to other things. This one is more general, and I'm posting because Badzkeelz pointed out we should be asking ourselves what place magick has in the game. That is a good question because I don't think it's place is well represented by the playerbase.

Maybe certain magickers should be much more accepted. Vivaduans/Rukkians in the Byn, lest complete disgust or fear of the more useful and less destructive sorts. A rogue viv shouldn't have to fear being found out nearly as much as a rogue Krathi, for instance. I like low fantasy. I like magick being rare and powerful. I think that we can have both of those things without completely segregating magickers to only antagonistic or conflict-making roles.

[nauta]

Glad you made this branch thread, because I had an idea in my head for quite a while now, which is this:

What if we just got rid of the Gemmed?

It's radical, I know, but bear with me a bit.

o First, there are perennial claims that playing a gemmed mage isn't fun for certain kinds of people.  It is hard to get into plots, because, as gemmed, outsiders to Allanak won't want to deal with you, even if they would deal with a rogue, but as gemmed, insiders to Allanak won't want to deal with you.

o Second, there are the perennial claims that there are too many gemmed in the bar!  Magick is supposed to be rare, but it isn't, if there are gemmed IN THE CITY itself, or at least gemmed PCs in your bar.

How would it get implemented?  Two options:

1. Make the gemmed virtual, like Tuluk.  Every once in a while staff might have a role call for a gemmed, for, e.g., Oash or the Templarate.

2. Make the gemmed disappear through some event in toto from Allanak through some epic event.  Oash and the Templarate would have to hire secret gicks or something, give them secret passes or something.

Anyway, it's so radical I bet someone has proposed it -- I'm not wed to the idea, but I would be curious what other people thought.

[BadSkeelz]

I see the question first in terms of how societies address the concept of magick itself.

In Allanak, certain elementalists are sanctioned with the Gem. This isn't done out of charity by the Templarate. It's a very functional, practical, de-mystified approach to magick. You Gem Vivaduans because they can make water; you Gem Elkrosians and Krathis for their destructive abilities; Drovians and Whirans for espionage and subterfuge. For me, it's both the most familiar way of thinking of magic(k) but also one I really dislike. Call it too Hogwarty, too "5 man group LF healer+DPS", too bland. Nothing about it feels like Armageddon to me. Well, except for the grinding angst and misery.

Rogue mages aren't much better, as magick mostly appears to be seized upon as a tool to "allow" "villains" to exist. As if we need death rays to be villainous. To me it suggests more the faults of mundane skill acquisition (i.e. very hard) and the playstyles it encourages (i.e. very cautious). It's just easier and quicker to make a magicker more dangerous than a mundane.

Both Rogue and Gem approach magick from a functional standpoint.

My favorite approach to magick is the tribal approach. Mages aren't just mages in a tribe - they're shamans, warriors, leaders, characters. Nor is magick restricted to the Magick-guild PCs; the tribal mindsets are infused with the knowledge that Magick Exists and it will influence every aspect of your life. It's woven much more thoroughly in to the culture of the tribes so that when your shaman raises a spell, it isn't someone taking the easy way out to solve a problem - it's a leader of your tribe calling on your peoples' chosen element for aid. Magick is an intrinsic part of their culture and flavor, accessed by all members of the tribe, not just a tool for a chosen few.

[RogueGunslinger]

I am also a fan of tribal magick. It's inclusive, where where magick is elsewhere it's incredibly exclusionary. Maybe if Amos didn't suddenly loathe and fear his brother who just turned into a witch there could possibly be more room for enjoyable roleplay.

[BadSkeelz]

I suppose I should have added that I believe civilized commoners should hate and fear magick. It's part of what helps set tribal roles apart. The clash between civilized and heathen is one I enjoy.

[Rokal]

I know what you're thinking, another thread on magick? Well, those are specific to other things. This one is more general, and I'm posting because Badzkeelz pointed out we should be asking ourselves what place magick has in the game. That is a good question because I don't think it's place is well represented by the playerbase.

Maybe certain magickers should be much more accepted. Vivaduans/Rukkians in the Byn, lest complete disgust or fear of the more useful and less destructive sorts. A rogue viv shouldn't have to fear being found out nearly as much as a rogue Krathi, for instance. I like low fantasy. I like magick being rare and powerful. I think that we can have both of those things without completely segregating magickers to only antagonistic or conflict-making roles.

I completely agree, it even states in the documents that various types of mages are valued or less feared then others.

i dont think someone would be willing to drink gick water unless theyre about to die of thirst, but a vivaduan can save someone from injuries, toxins, all sorts of things.

the bolded part -its true, but not just on the players of the gick's side too, but on the mundane's side too. People seem to go to extremes of hatred over fear, over the littlest of things - i mean i know its fun to RP the gick hate and fear.

But i think one thing we need to look at is how people approach that - i mean, theres no real way to control anything people do, but discussing about it at the least IMO would help people get a possible common ground.

Gicks are my favorite role to play, and I totally support this discussion and trying to find magick's place in it.

personally, the biggest part of playing a gicker IMO is bringing the mystery and uncertainty, and unpredictability of magick to life for those mundanes that are there to experience you, without saturating the presence of magick, or -entirely sidelining a mundane by completely outshining them-

[Erythil]

I think this game's community stresses way too much over finding the 'proper' place of magic in the game world, and especially over how much mages should be repressed.

I think they are too repressed, and playing a non-iso non-tribal mage is often not fun because of it, and the entire game's culture surrounding magic is an over the top reaction to the supposed abuses of CAM about an IRL -decade- ago.  I think every clan should be able to hire a mage or two, and that mages should be more like nonhumans -- barred from leadership but still able to participate in most organizations.  If this greater visibility required a couple more anti-magic tools being available (protective amulets for normals or magical bomb collars for mages or something) then so be it.

This is a game where you live in the shadow of an immortal wizard king who can turn into a dragon, whose enemy is an immortal mind reading wizard, who has slain various other immortal wizards, and the wilderness is full of impossible megabeasts that are the result of a highly magical apocalypse.  A volcano rose and vanished in a hundred years because of a magic so powerful that no one comprehends it and it caused an extra MOON to pop into the sky.  This is a very very high fantasy world -- most of us just don't play people with magic power.  Trying to turn it into a low-fantasy game just because we play low-fantasy characters is not going to work.

[Rokal]

I think this game's community stresses way too much over finding the 'proper' place of magic in the game world, and especially over how much mages should be repressed.

I think they are too repressed, and playing a non-iso non-tribal mage is often not fun because of it, and the entire game's culture surrounding magic is an over the top reaction to the supposed abuses of CAM about an IRL -decade- ago.  I think every clan should be able to hire a mage or two, and that mages should be more like nonhumans -- barred from leadership but still able to participate in most organizations.  If this greater visibility required a couple more anti-magic tools being available (protective amulets for normals or magical bomb collars for mages or something) then so be it.

This is a game where you live in the shadow of an immortal wizard king who can turn into a dragon, whose enemy is an immortal mind reading wizard, who has slain various other immortal wizards, and the wilderness is full of impossible megabeasts that are the result of a highly magical apocalypse.  A volcano rose and vanished in a hundred years because of a magic so powerful that no one comprehends it and it caused an extra MOON to pop into the sky.  This is a very very high fantasy world -- most of us just don't play people with magic power.  Trying to turn it into a low-fantasy game just because we play low-fantasy characters is not going to work.

Yeah, I completely agree that mages are too opressed. I dont think that will change much ,and i've only played arm for two years, but I've figured out enough to know that the culture of hatred agaisnt magick isn't just the IC, its quite litereally OOC due to whatever the heck happened.

im not saying anyones at fault, it just seems to be the OOC culture right now.

I do think they SHOULD be oppressed, and the varying types of mages should be opressed more a less depending on what they are.

A krathi should have a much tighter leash then a vivaduan, ect..

[Case]

I've found tribal magick to be really fun.

Gemmed itself is a broken role. Whenever I've cracked it, and really made it work for me, the amount of effort it takes to both try and maintain magick theme and work with a bunch of ever changing faces - who all want to play superheroes and masters of magick and whatever, and seem a mix of half veterans, half newbs, with roleplay that's often way below other areas of the game, is torturous. If you show any scrap of leadership ability, everybody is looking to you to churn out fun for them. You may as well be a clan lead. It gets me down whenever I play a Gemmed, being honest. There's a culture of maxing out, and doing it ASAP. There's a lot of PCs bouncing from Nak in ways to try make the Templarate forget them, so they operate with impunity later (and lots of trying to avoid PC Templarate entirely, to some huge extremes). There's rarely mystery to it. Gemmed and non Gemmed alike mysteriously knowing all your grabbag of tricks, and all the various counters. You get treated like a person of Guild, rather than an individual character. Honestly, magick has the shittest RP around it on Armageddon unless it's a quality player really enforcing standards, or it's role constrained.

The role can't even be exemplified, as it has little documentation, no real scope for Gemmed to congregate and set basic standards, and very limited PC advancement beyond spamming up spells and hoping a Templar wants your element, or going off to fuck up some dudes. Gemmed contribute nothing as they stand.


I think magick RP for this game needs serious work. It has little to no use in the majority of the game's context, and when it does show up, it's a be-all-end-all that basically any player can access, regardless of talent for nuance and theme, and it's inevitably better than the majority of what mundanes can ever do. For little effort or development.

[Case]

Hell, I'd be over the moon if it was random from birth if you were a gicker, and it got triggered on you either automatically or by a staffer, eventually. Keep all the skills and whatever. Just slap on the elemental spells over the top.

Shit would be insanely cool. I'd love to see how that'd change the fabric of it all.

[Pale Horse]

So..here's some thoughts.  Fair warning, my post contains large amounts of hyperbole.

Arm. is supposed to be a "low-magick" setting, right?  A lot more focus on the "swash-and-buckle" vs. the "pewpewpew."

Thing is, the origin of the setting still has its roots in Dark Sun and the focus on adventuring where magick is a central part.  Its "Swash-buckle-pewpew."  The magick code is set up to favor "adventuring" and not so much for "role-playing."  Not that it's totally without its uses for role-play, but it is very much a "buff the group/person" and "slay the thing" sort of thing.

Why not de-power the power of lethality available to elementalists?  "Fireball" does 2d10 damage now instead of 4d20.  Replace some of the overtly magickal effect spells with something mundane and moving the "glowing balls of magick death" to higher end powers.  A Krathi having the power to light a torch vs. making a point of light on the end of a finger.  A Rukkian pulling a chunk of obsidian or basalt from the ground with a spell vs. summoning a rock guardian from the sand.  A Drovian manipulating shadows to give a bonus to the hide skill where someone might not have one vs. disappearing into the shadows like Grimskull from Skeleton Warriors.

An IG plot is then hatched where due to this sudden shift, the general populous of the cities turns against the gemmed and either enslaves them totally or kicks them out.  Not being the font of power they once were, the Templarate or Tek doesn't care; their purpose is over.  Magickers are now totally rogue or only accepted in small communities in the fringes of society and tribes.  They're the "an" to someone's "pro."

Groups of mages are no longer "power ranger" level dangerous, and now just dangerous because groups of mages have the combined ability and power to stand up to a group of well-armed Militia.  They can gather together out in the ass-end of no-where in the wastes without every witch hunter and bored templar starting a lynch mob to track them down because they're "there."  If they start getting too powerful in a central location, then something might be done by the powers that be.

Magickers get interaction in groups and can play their angsty selves like half-elves and muls, outcasts from greater society while still being useful to a degree that isn't "pewpewpew."  Their abilities enhance mundane efforts at low and mid-level ranges, with only the close-to-fully-branched and powerful magickers having overtly magickal signs and powers.

[BadSkeelz]

Gemmed contribute nothing as they stand.

I'd say it's worse than this. Gemmed get in the way of mundane contributions and the low fantasy most of us are trying to play out. Erythil is right in that the bones of the world are built on High Fantasy Magick, but that should be the background. Gemmed, in their current form, are a jarring, metagamey, disruptive out-of-place piece on the game board. It's like playing Cowboys and Indians, except one kid insists on being an Astronaut.

What are Gemmed suppose to be? What should be fun about their role, what should be challenging, and what should they contribute to the game?

[valeria]

I enjoy the current level of gemmed involvement in the game, and have for quite a while.  I haven't personally played one I can get into, but I don't think that means they need more involvement.  I've seen plenty of them on my characters that would be expected to have lots of involvement with gemmed (read: my templar) and basically none of them, other than the occasionally gemmed sitting in the Gaj, on any of my other characters in a good long while.  And that's how I like it.

[Bogre]

Magick and it's place in the world - I have been waiting for this topic. I love magickers, and playing mages, despite my pretty much miserable track record with accomplishing anything codedly wicked with them. But I love playing them, and the roleplay I get engaged with them (although often solo or fringe) I think is amazing. It suits my time constraints and playstyle perfectly.

So what do I want magick to be in the game world?

Varied.

I like mages so much because I think the twisting, warping bends of realities they represent allow such a breadth of character traits and archetypes. You can play any normal personality...who happens to be a mage, or you can play something completely bent and shaped by their element. For instance, a big inspiration for magickers are the sorcerers of the Black Company - the Ten Who Were Taken down to the squad mages, and also the tribe mages and imperial cadre mages of the Malazan Fallen, and they are rich in depth and flavor. Evil, good, in between. Powerful, weak, middling, competent, hedge.

I think magick is too focused on elementalists who can use spells. I'd like to see their repertoire increased, with a lot of range of mundane things and more ritualistic things that can be accomplished in tandem or in concert. Allow some rare and limited exploration into other reaches, strange new things, for those mages who become totally attuned to themselves. Not every mage has to get everything neat beyond the basic trees, but some variation at the end game would be interesting.

Shamanistic magick is something that can really be expanded in Armageddon. The elusive, ill-defined sort of magick that complements a tribe, rather than just being 'a tribe who lets Rukkians live'. Not that it doesn't have it's place - a Sun tribe, for example, having flame mages sort of makes sense, but it makes sense to be tailored rather than arbitrarily choosing elements for clans. How would it work codedly ? (It would probably need some code, ack!). But imagine if a Soh elf shaman gets ritual access to some sort of spirit magick - communing with the desert spirits, traveling underneath the sands like an anakore, being able to evoke the rending claws. Taking the eye of a vulture or crow to sweep above the plains.

I think more things, not less or removing abilities, is the way to go.

[Rokal]

Hell, I'd be over the moon if it was random from birth if you were a gicker, and it got triggered on you either automatically or by a staffer, eventually. Keep all the skills and whatever. Just slap on the elemental spells over the top.

Shit would be insanely cool. I'd love to see how that'd change the fabric of it all.

This would be the coolest thing ever.

Like, seriously, this sort of thing would be a game changer and a eyeopener, while all the same keeping magick rare and mysterious.

I can just imagine the kind of crazy plots that would stem from something like this happening!

[Erythil]

I'll agree that the Black Company is probably a pretty good example of how low fantasy gritty soldiers and super high fantasy spellcasters can work nicely side by side.

[wizturbo]

My two cents would be to permit magickers to join clans, in a limited capacity.  Much like the tribal shaman, there may only be 1 or 2 slots available for such a role in a clan at any time, with element restrictions.  Then handle their presence in the clan like any DM does in any table top game, by making content that's obviously geared to their role.  The clan Vivaduan is there to heal, provide water, and protect her clan.  Scale up encounters accordingly.  Will that role be important?  Sure, but no less important than the bad ass warrior whose doing all the killing, or the leader whose calling the shots.

Doing it in this controlled fashion will greatly limit the amount of game breaking, fun killing situations.  This is only true if you limit the number of magickers, and limit their ability to coordinate with multiple elements.  A single Vivaduan that tags along with the Byn can enhance an RPT and make it more fun, a Vivaduan and a Krathi at the same time however will make it the magicker show.  This is perhaps my biggest beef with House Oash.  If they have an active clan of mages, involving them in a plot immediately turns it into the magicker show because they have a wide array of elements available.  It's almost like having a sorcerer of old along with you, they become the center of everything.  This is okay, if it's a magick plot to begin with, but most plots are not magick-only plots.

Equally important, create clan specific rules and customs surrounding these magickers.  Things that create nuance in their roleplay.  What makes the tribal magickers cool roles is not that they're tribal, it's the structure around their role.  They have a purpose.  They have limitations.  They are part of something beside their own personal development.  The same circumstances could be made in many clans.

When I think of the Byn having a Vivaduan combat medic, Kurac having a resident Krathi to help crack down on rogue mages that visit their Outpost, or Kadius having a Rukkian gem finder,  these all seem like awesome roles that would enhance the game.  I think they would add interesting role play opportunities for all parties involved.  But...that's my two cents.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel otherwise.  That's kinda why this thread is pointless.  Everyone is going to to have their own idea on what magick's place is in Armageddon, and I doubt they're going to break into nice clean segments.  No way to please everyone, and no way not to piss off someone if a change is made...  So the perpetual stalemate will continue.

[Erythil]

I think wizturbo's idea of having 1 mage slot per clan, element-limited, would be a neat touch and add to the game.

[wizturbo]

I think wizturbo's idea of having 1 mage slot per clan, element-limited, would be a neat touch and add to the game.

I'd also add, that this mage slot doesn't necessarily have to be public knowledge in all cases.  The Vivaduan combat medic example for instance might be publicly known, whereas the Rukkian gem finder would not be.  But letting players know that OOCly there are clan supported roles for magickers, some of which are secret, some of which are not, would go a very long way in adding some purpose and direction for these roles, and also give magick a realistic place in the world with meaningful roleplay opportunities beyond the occasional light shows.

[BadSkeelz]

Having a viv on an RPT quickly turns it in to a WoW instance run, break for heal and mana.

[wizturbo]

Having a viv on an RPT quickly turns it in to a WoW instance run, break for heal and mana.

That's why the staff need to tailor the RPT to that to keep it fun.  There are countless ways clever staffers can make sure things don't become stale or contrived.

To be fair, things are already this way.  Take a break to let everyone recover stamina.  Take a break to let people heal from their wounds.  I don't think this is a valid reason to shoot the idea down...  But then again, your biases on this are as clear as mine.

And to be fair, the Vivaduan combat medic is probably the only example I've given where they even need to participate in an RPT situation.  The Guild Drovian may rarely be seen by anyone but the Guild boss at the time.  The Rukkian gem finder might be Kadius' dirty secret.  Neither of those roles need be at an RPT at all to exist and be interesting and fun.

[Case]

I wouldn't blame vivs for the health code being a weak simulation.

It's not like vivs can't be changed either.

[BadSkeelz]

Clan magickers should be PKed before every RPT lest they steal the glory and/or cause staff to ramp the difficulty up too much.

[Erythil]

Having a viv on an RPT quickly turns it in to a WoW instance run, break for heal and mana.

Break for stamina and bandages isn't any different.

[wizturbo]

Clan magickers should be PKed before every RPT lest they steal the glory and/or cause staff to ramp the difficulty up too much.

Right, that sounds like it would enhance the story immensely.

*wizturbo starts to daydream*

As the massive Gith army advances, rattling their bone spears against their shields, Runner Amos turns and stabs the Company's Vivaduan combat medic in the kidney with a poisoned dagger, exclaiming, "I won't have you steal my glory, magicker!".  

As the Vivaduan falls to his knees, dying, a Gith arrow pierces Amos' cheap leather collar and he collapses beside the witch, clutching at his throat as blood gushes out.  The irony of the situation does not escape First Trooper Malik, who lets out a grim, manic laugh as the sky darkens, and a volley of gith arrows descends on the mercenaries.

Yup...  That is a cool scene.  I'd be okay with that happening.

[Kryos]

Clan magickers should be PKed before every RPT lest they steal the glory and/or cause staff to ramp the difficulty up too much.

We get it, you personally don't like magickers/involving them.  Plenty of that already to sit on.

Also, to many speaking of 'the magicker show' . . . I humbly disagree.  My experience has shown me both the profound strengths, and weaknesses, of magick and its users.  I would put forth that the player of mundane or magic user makes the experience.  I've had PCs put under their heel, asked to collaborate with, and who went after one or more.  More or less the full spectrum.  The result for me is that a well played character with magic powers is a ball to be around, be you on the receiving or giving end.  They are karma locked, and this I think is necessary.

Rarity?  Keep it as it is.  Distribution?  Maybe open up just a wee, wee bit more.  Maybe.

[wizturbo]

Break for stamina and bandages isn't any different.

But those involve completely reasonable things Erythil!  I mean, those bandages were covered in these herbs you see.  /sarcasm

The whole argument against magickers having some place in this game is crap.  If you have a spell echo come before the instantaneous heal it's glory hogging, but if you used an herb soaked bandage, then it's okay.   Make sure you emote really well about how you're applying that bandage though!  But Vivaduans, you'd better not emote any light shows when you heal someone magickally.  It takes away all the fun.

The same goes with combat.  If you cast fireball and burn up a mantis, you'd steal all the glory at the RPT.  It's okay to shoot the mantis with a bow from a few rooms away though.  Or sap it unconscious at the start of combat.  Or use a poison that makes it paralyzed in a few seconds.  No problem there.

We don't want RPT's to feel like WoW instances or anything, but our combat leader PCs tell people to "assist" each other.  Or tell the half-giant to go play tank.  Or take a break after the fight to heal up.  What a load of crap.  Don't pretend that having magickers involved in it somehow ruins the experience and makes it more like a WoW raid than it already is.  

I swear, the anti-magicker arguments on these boards essentially boil down to "I like Aragorn more than Gandalf."  

Good!  Good for you!  This is Zalanthas.  There's magick.  There always has been.  Stop trying to turn it into AragornMud.  Play an Aragorn style PC if you like it, and hate Gandalf if you like that too, but don't OOCly say that Gandalf should go sit in a cave alone because if he comes along it's going to ruin your Aragorn party. 

[BadSkeelz]

It really does, at least for me. Everything else you mention has real weight behind it, a visceral realness. Something I can imagine and become immersed in. Spells are just kind of... Bleeuuuugh? Forced. Made up. Contrived.

It's a weird distinction to make in a text based game of hairless dwarfs, I know, but trust me when I say I believe it.

The nice thing about Armageddon now is that it is a big world and it's possible to play in different spheres with minimal overlap.

Also my favorite character was Ugluk.

[wizturbo]

The nice thing about Armageddon now is that it is a big world and it's possible to play in different spheres with minimal overlap.

Yes, you're right.  It is nice, for mundanes.  But what about the magickers out there?  It fucking sucks for people who want to play a magicker and are pigeon holed into, to use your own words,  "Forced.  Made up.  Contrived" roles because someone arbitrarily decided they should be that way.  

It makes no fucking sense that a magicker who can cure all kinds of grievance injuries, diseases, or poisons, and create water on a desert world is not employed by any clan in the entire world except for House Oash or a human tribe.  That could be used as a fucking dictionary definition for forced, made up and contrived.

Why is it okay for mundanes to be saved from these kinds of contrived situations, but magickers just have to shut up and deal with it?

[BadSkeelz]

From a meta standpoint, it's because magick offers the easy way out. It undercuts the theme of 'harsh post apocalyptic desert world' if we can just magick our way to survival or comfort.

In character, I don't know how you justify the exclusion beyond hatred of the concept itself. Zalanthans are pretty dumb.

[Inks]

Wizturbo and Skeelz are basically opposites. One can't bear magick like it is a red headed stepchild and one can't stop going back to it or say anything bad about it like a cukolded spouse.

I forgot where I was going with this.

Oh right, I think 2 mages at a time should be allowed in the Sabers. As long as they were treated as a living machine gun and nod as a friend.

[Vwest]

Magick will always have a place in my bawdy band of adventurers.

[RogueGunslinger]

IMO Aragorn used magick.  

He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch.

[wizturbo]

Wizturbo and Skeelz are basically opposites. One can't bear magick like it is a red headed stepchild and one can't stop going back to it or say anything bad about it like a cukolded spouse.

We agree on some things actually.  I think Nil should be removed, so does BadSkeelz.  I think magickers should be scary, and earn their coded strength, so does BadSkeelz.  

We also both agree that neither one of us play characters that always reflect our OOC biases.  I've played characters who absolutely loathe magick, and I'm sure he's played characters that tolerate it.

There's some common ground, but we butt heads on the GDB more often than we agree.

[wizturbo]

IMO Aragorn used magick.  

He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch.

Herb-soaked bandage.  Prayed to Tek.    Fuck it, I should've used Gimli in my analogy.

[RogueGunslinger]

IMO Aragorn used magick.  

He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Then setting it aside, he turned to Frodo and in a soft tone spoke words the others could not catch.

Herb-soaked bandage.  Prayed to Tek.    Fuck it, I should've used Gimli in my analogy.

But he has a beard! Hah, but no really, Aragorn totally did use Master bandage. I conveniently left out the rest.

[Incognito]

A lot of these issues - the place of magick on Arm - would be addressed, if Templars, nobles, clan leaders (like the Byn, just for example) and even the general Allanaki population - would start utilizing gemmed mages for their various abilities.

Left on their own, gemmed have really no direction, other than to interact between themselves, and practise their spells and be on their own, and plan their own miniscule plots.

As a PC, you might hate or fear the gemmed, but, you would also know their uses, and when to approach them for help. Trading favors (either in cash or kind) with a gemmer, doesn't mean your PC has "accepted" them, it just means you are being practical in a given situation and using the resources available to you, even though the outcome might be different than what you expect, sometimes. In other words, dealing or associating with a mage wont label you as a witch-lover, as long as you do it in an ICLY realistic manner.

If players start thinking in this way, it'll open up a whole new range of RP possibilities and interactions - for mundane and mages alike.

[Inks]

I hope the gemmed aren't used widely like this ever.

[Dakota]

The rarer they are and the more RP obsticles put forth, the better magickers are for the game world.

If a Viv is w. a group on some RPT and is healing everyone and keeping everyone alive, then, frankly, fuck all those people. The way magick is in the world, I'd reckon most would feel fear, spite and repulusion to that magickers magic.

Maybe I'm a bit extreme but I think a guilds which are innately powerful, need strict RP from themselves and others to keep checks and balances AND to add color to the world. It's gritty. It's hard. It's brutal. This ain't WoW.

And it's probably why most my PCs fall into the RP stereotype of a magic-loathing / fearing variety and why I choose to play mundanes.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

From a meta standpoint, it's because magick offers the easy way out. It undercuts the theme of 'harsh post apocalyptic desert world' if we can just magick our way to survival or comfort.

In character, I don't know how you justify the exclusion beyond hatred of the concept itself. Zalanthans are pretty dumb.

Hate of groups is an overwhelming power in a world full of water, food, mass production, metal, healthcare and education. I always thought that the hatred of mages made sense in the world.

[burble]

For the benefit of having mages accepted, add a penalty.

Certain spells could cause unease in animals - cast within 5 rooms of a hunting type and it would be set to hunt you. Any other agro type and it would be set to charge you. Make npcs (gith, etc) autotarget mages when they cast spells. Maybe casting a spell calls more to the fight.

Make it so that magic is a last resort weapon, not a front line event.

Magic on arm makes no sense to me. I've had my pcs wet their pants when realizing they were talking to a gemmed at a bar then leave. I've had them run in circles with their hands in the air out in the wilds, screaming in fear (after giving them time to cast a spell, leave). Show fear and leave is the only encounter I know that is IC for meeting a magicker. Leave hatred for the stronger types.

[azuriolinist]

In my opinion, the hatred/fear of magick makes sense because magick to Zalanthans is this utterly powerful thing capable of all sorts of destruction. This can tend to cause envy, panic, and what have you not. And, codedly, from what I've read on these boards, that is already represented (whether poorly RPed or not)...

The adversity to mages balances their power out pretty well, making them difficult to play in a non-coded way. Mages are often never accepted by the rest of the people, and there is little hope for them to rise through the ranks and resemble something important whatsoever. That said, I'd like it if there were more opportunities for mages to interact with others and contribute to plots, even if it's for them to be used as a tool to die later on (because filthy magick, come on). Opening a slot or two in clans for elementalists would be neat, and from there I think it should fall upon the clan's leaders on whether they'd wish to hire one or not.

I'm not saying have Zalanthans accept them, but to make use of them. And if they act out, all the more reason to fear mages.

[palomar]

I'd like magick to be rare and powerful. While I understand the removal of full sorcerers from the hands of the player base, I don't like that quite a few aspects of magick are locked away from PCs. The CAM era of 2007-2008 (I played a fully branched-and-some-more rogue elementalist at the time) revealed a lot of stuff about what's possible with the magick system on Arm, and my understanding is that most of it is now unavailable. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that there's not much of long-term development for magicker PCs anymore. I intend to explore the magicker situation at some point with future PCs and perhaps I'll be proven wrong in my assumptions.
That said, my personal experience is that magickers are quite rare and also quite scary when you run into them. While I as a player might know what a Rukkian is capable of, most of my PCs wouldn't, and that's what I take into the game. As for the gemmed, I have no idea. Never played one or around them much to have an opinion.

[Pale Horse]

If magick is supposed to be mystical, powerful and scary...why not make it hidden?

Remove the ability of anyone who isn't a gicker of some flavor or another to see the specific casting animations that a mage goes.  Replace them with a generic "such-and-such waves their arms about" instead of "blood falls from the sky as such-and-such waves their arms about" to anyone who can't cast.  Add some of the uncertainty back in.

Added scary when facing a rogue out in the wilderness.  Sure the witch has been throwing fireballs this whole time and you're pretty sure their a Krathi..but do you really know?  Maybe they're a secret sorcerer and will pull out a lightning bolt on your ass any moment now.  You ain't the wiggler, you'll have to trust your powers of observation or, Tek-forbid, trust the word of another wiggler.

[Beethoven]

I would support this. Sometimes I want my mage PC to cast subtly and do something simple, but instead it's like ROARING FLAMES GATHER AROUND YOU or THERE'S SUDDENLY AN EARTHQUAKE or DAMN IT SUDDENLY GOT HUMID IN HERE.

[Warsong]

Personally, I find that the whole concept of gemmed mages completely destroys the notion that magick is rare, and that encountering a magicker should be something scary and impressive. Even if you don't see gemmed people doing magick at the bar and whatnot, the fact that you sit there with them every day - and they're often trying extremely hard to be nice and considerate - makes it hard to keep up the charade. It forces your character to consciously distinguish between gemmed mages and rogue mages, which feels jarring and weird. It forces you to either give up on being standoffish toward mages, or go through this tediouos and contrived pretend-unfriendliness every time you go to the Gaj, to the point where it just feels annoying and fake.

I don't know what the gemmed add to the game as a concept. I've never seen it. I've never witnessed anything good come from it, just awkward and off-putting interaction as well as a watering-down of the game's magick theme, and of course the enabling of the most powerful type of reasonably available character also being the easiest to max out. It's all negative to me. Rogue mages, they're great and I think that's precisely what magick should be about. Gemmed, though? That completely undermines this and just creates tedious, meaningless interactions that I don't think anybody on either side is interested in. Gemmed characters aren't even really useful, they're largely limited to a single clan and, almost by definition, cannot have anything significant to do with the playerbase at large.

Rogue mages represent what I feel magick should be, and gemmed mages really undermine this. I feel like the option of going gemmed is probably also a blow against rogue mages because a good portion of players will choose the path of least resistance, tying half (or whatever) of mage PCs up in the gemmed role where they're severely limited in what they can add to the game world in terms of representing magick as a scary, dangerous thing. A lot of it stems from the fact that the gem is visible, though, because I think a lot of these problems would be solved if being a gemmed mage was something you could keep secret between you and the templarate, creating a whole new venue of plot and intrigue that's elimiated from the start when all gemmed mages can be identified at first glance.

If there was a time in the past when gemmed mages had a real purpose and a meaningful role to play, I feel that it's gone. I guess the gemmed concept wasn't meant for a game with no other city that could be the opposite counterpart.

[valeria]

Personally, I find that the whole concept of gemmed mages completely destroys the notion that magick is rare, and that encountering a magicker should be something scary and impressive.

I disagree. I think the distinction is fine. It's the difference between coming across a huge, scary-looking dog in the park that has a collar and is attached to its owner by a leash. And coming across a huge, scary dog in the park and no one is around even pretending to control it.

[Warsong]

Personally, I find that the whole concept of gemmed mages completely destroys the notion that magick is rare, and that encountering a magicker should be something scary and impressive.

I disagree. I think the distinction is fine. It's the difference between coming across a huge, scary-looking dog in the park that has a collar and is attached to its owner by a leash. And coming across a huge, scary dog in the park and no one is around even pretending to control it.

Right, but it seems to me that the existence of the gemmed option makes it so that a number of mage players take that course and subsequently don't fill the role as scary, dangerous mage. The scary, dangerous mages seem to be a bit missing from where I'm standing, probably because the cushy temple and safe gem was tempting to those players. Consequently, I never actually hear about the scary, dangerous magick, and my character's only exposure to it is seeing them in the Gaj where they're friendly and a common sight, i.e. not scary and rare.

[Beethoven]

They're not necessarily just scary because they're unfriendly, although obviously an unfriendly one is scarier. They're scary because their very presence is supposedly volatile. I enjoy playing the discrimination against mages a lot more when I play a superstitious PC rather than one that just frowns and grunts or whatever.

[Patuk]

They're not necessarily just scary because they're unfriendly, although obviously an unfriendly one is scarier. They're scary because their very presence is supposedly volatile. I enjoy playing the discrimination against mages a lot more when I play a superstitious PC rather than one that just frowns and grunts or whatever.

You're not wrong, but the word supposedly is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

[wizturbo]

Right, but it seems to me that the existence of the gemmed option makes it so that a number of mage players take that course and subsequently don't fill the role as scary, dangerous mage. The scary, dangerous mages seem to be a bit missing from where I'm standing, probably because the cushy temple and safe gem was tempting to those players. Consequently, I never actually hear about the scary, dangerous magick, and my character's only exposure to it is seeing them in the Gaj where they're friendly and a common sight, i.e. not scary and rare.

That's true, but not for the reasons you think.  

People don't choose to play Gemmed because it's "cushy and safe" they play Gemmed because it's the only way they can have an actual role instead of pretending to be mundane, but not having any skills to actually pretend to be that effectively.  I'll admit, the new subguilds and extended subguilds help with this, but it's extremely easy to sniff that you're an 'aggressor' vs.  an actual mundane guild.  The only roles where they might actually be able to blend in and pretend to be mundane are social roles, which generally mean roles in the cities, except the magick protections on the cities make this basically impossible so no one does it anymore.  So, they go to Red Storm, Luirs, or live in the wild and try to keep their secret.  If they're incredibly lucky (or OOCly collude with other players) they might bump into another rogue magicker to play with.  Unless they're very clever, or play off peak hours, they're bound to be discovered in short order and then they either die, lose all of their interaction by fleeing, or become "the scary bad guy" which is just another version of losing all their interaction, save for their few villainous Ways or rare encounters in the wilds.  Not exactly an exciting role you want to sink a lot of hours into.

So many choose to play a Gemmed.  At least there, they have other Gemmed to talk to, can join House Oash, or can participate in some plots the Templarate bring them along on.  Except even the Gemmed are incredibly limited.  You cannot visit other people's temples, so finding other Gemmed isn't easy.  There are no Gemmed forums to coordinate play times with others, and no central meeting places to congregate.  Many Gemmed take to standing aimlessly at the choke point that leads into the Elementalist Quarter in a desperate attempt to find people.  They literally just loiter on the street.  

House Oash is only an option for certain types of personalities, and the politics of that clan often means that joining Oash limits your interactions with non-Oash Gemmed.

Despite those limitations, at least you get to play an actual mage, rather than some hollow shell of a character.  And some of the best magickal plots I've been involved in were with Gemmed mages.  It just takes a lot of squeezing to get juice out of Gemmed roles, a lot more squeezing than anyone should have to go through.  And then uninformed, or biased people on the GDB say that even the limited roles available via the Gem should be taken away so they can have their 'scary and mysterious' magickers...  Except there are no scary or mysterious magicks anymore without staff assistance (which thankfully is granted from time to time, which is the only thing that keeps things fresh.  Thank you staff!).  They're all very well known and documented by cheaters.  No one is OOCly impressed when they encounter "normal" magick anymore, and it certainly effects the IC reactions of all but the best of role players.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

This reminds me of a time when I had a 'rather simple' human woman just out of chargen that an aide of some sort decided to cling to and he asked me stuff, like about myself, if I thought I might ever work for someone, etc. And a witch asks us to come into the vivaduan main room temple (the old version that was actually nice) because he wants to ask me a question. So we do.

Me and the aide suckup dude chat a little more and I think he finds me adorable in a cute kitten way. The witch comes back with a teardrop jewel on a string and says its a gift for me. And I'm simple and everything so it makes me real happy. I wear it and it gives off the echo telling everyone in the room that I'm a water witch.

[Molten Heart]

Personally, I find that the whole concept of gemmed mages completely destroys the notion that magick is rare, and that encountering a magicker should be something scary and impressive.

I disagree. I think the distinction is fine. It's the difference between coming across a huge, scary-looking dog in the park that has a collar and is attached to its owner by a leash. And coming across a huge, scary dog in the park and no one is around even pretending to control it.

Until the cops show up and they shoot the dog. Not that this would happen in real life but in zalanthas magikers are viewed as a huge threat for no definite reason that's also inconsistent with similar threats.

[BadSkeelz]

Re: Wizturbo and the Gemmed,

As I see the Gemmed, the suckiness and challenge of their role is very much fitting and intentional.

The Gem was not invented in-character to give mages a chance to be mages. It was developed as a lure, a token signifying that in a world where near everyone hates magickers, you can live in some safety and comfort within the walls of Allanak... so long that you submit and serve. Gemmed should be viewed as the hollow shells of characters, not rogue mages. They're cowards, who took the Gemmed so as to be protected from the envy and fear of the rest of the world. It is Gemmed who are basically slaves, who live only at the whim of the Templarate (and who get lynched in mass whenever the Templarate takes its eye off the ball). It is Gemmed who are thought of as weapons, tools, and occasional fuckpillows. Gemmed have no culture, no gathering place, no traditions, because it's in the Templarate's interest for them not to. The Gemmed should be beaten down and convinced of their own expendable nature.

Why then would anyone want to submit to this? Because it's better than the alternative - to be hunted and killed. To be a rogue mage is to be a rebel, to reject the submission demanded by the Templarate. You also put yourself at odds with the superstitions of the tribes, who are unlikely to view you as any better than a mockery and thief of their spirits' power. Rogues shouldn't become villains because they've spamcasted up to laser death beam, they should become villains because they reject the order of the world.

Gemmed is a difficult, soulcrushingly isolated role by design. It's a slave role in all but in name, which historically have abysmal application rates. The only reason you see as many Gemmed as you do is because of the whizbang factor of magick (plus a few people who actually play characters). Perhaps its too difficult, but I don't think they need to be given more clan jobs.

If anything, rogue mages need more love and room to exist. Room for them to be hunted in, and to fight back from.

The focus should not be on incorporating Gemmed in to mundane play. It should be the antagonistic nature of civilized (and tribal) culture fighting against those who've rejected it.

[Tisiphone]

My vision for magick is as follows. This covers both my desired place in the world, and coded changes to accomplish that. That said, I think it roughly covers where magick is 'supposed' to be, according to the documentation. Note also that I'm talking about elementalists; sorcerers are their own bag of wind.

Magick should be useful. Magick should be scary. Magick should be dangerous. Magick should be weird. Magick should be powerful. Magick should be dark.

First, do away with standard casting echoes. They're often inappropriate, and usually ignored. If we took the code at its word, Allanak would be a burned-out pile of rubble by now.

The next level would be easy to accomplish with minimal changes to how magick appears to work to the players. (Note that I'm not talking about coding difficulty, just perceived change.)

Magick should carry consequences in the form of uncontrollable or difficult-to-control side-effects, depending on the spell and the power. A 'low level' or 'starting' spell might, at lower horns, have no side effects...usually. Higher horns, or more powerful spells, have more severe effects. Furthermore, what side effect types you get should not be strictly deterministic, but based on probability. Finally, the more casting you do in a short period of time, the more severe the side effects. Side effects might include, in rough order of severity:

• Personally-visible echoes (such as strange feelings, or arcane senses. Things like, "You notice an oppressive presence take momentary notice of you," or, "You have a sudden conviction that there are crawling beetles inside your eyeballs, trying to get out." These are poorly written examples in the spirit, not exemplars.)
• Room-visible unsettling echoes. (e.g., "A small band of roaches assembles into a pair of eyes before skittering away again," or, "A large, translucent hand appears through a hole in the air, groping for something before fading from view.")
• Lingering personal echoes to simulate temporary derangement. (e.g., "You have an unaccountable craving for eyeballs," or "You need a rock friend. Only the rocks understand you, and the rocks whisper secrets when you stroke them just right.") Think skellebaine echoes, but not so frequent and more consistent. There would be several different possible 'echo status effects' that are invisible to the status command and each self-consistent.
• Magickal misfires. The spell affects something else, or more, or less, than its intended target, or has a greater or lesser effect, or a side effect. (e.g. you cast a spell to buff your stamina. It does so, while also lowering your agility and giving you a temporary echo of uncontrollable tics.)
• Lingering description changes that mark one as a mage to other mages or mundanes. Either tdesc or using wearlocs, like fading scars. Range from an arcane eye on your forehead only visible to other mages through a disfiguring weal across your face to a stunted third arm or a vestigal pair of wings that remove your <back> slot until they wither and drop off.
• Lingering status effects that change real stats or abilities. Lower stun or HP or stamina or mana, etc. Maybe refreshed by new casting. Maybe temporarily relieved by new casting, thus tempting the player to pile on more effects.
  
• Permanent description changes, as above.
• Permanent status effects, as above.
• Permanent personality changes. You get told, e.g. "You are now convinced there are beetles made of pure darkness scratching at the edge of the world trying to get in. You hear them in your dreams, and are terrified of what would happen if they succeed. Only you can stop them." That gets logged to your character info so staff can see it and check that you are roleplaying accordingly. (There might need to be a system for negotiating different insanities with staff, so this doesn't get repetitive.)
• Plenty of other ideas might fit on this list.

The possibility, severity, and specifics of each of these effects should depend on what spell is cast, the severity of the spell, and the element. Vivaduan spells should generally be less creepy than Drovian spells, and side effects from Suk-krathis should be more outright destructive than those of Rukkians. This would go a long way toward reinforcing the 'magick is scary, but useful' place accorded to it in the documentation, with tiered reactions depending on the element of the caster. You might employ a Viv for some things, maybe, but unless you're a templar you're going to stay well clear of a Krathi. Drovians are truly weird, and so forth.

The second level would be to add a different, supplementary sort of magick itself. Mages should get 'ritual' spells that take time and materials to cast, for powerful but indirect effects. Depending on element, you might change the weather, or turn all beasts of a given type in a certain area into your temporary friends, or increase changes of finding gemstones, or turn some area into a maze where people always lose their direction, or cause an entire section of the Red Desert to temporarily break out in bubbling lava, killing everything caught there. They might summon elementals (if these don't exist, make them) or gain temporary (or permanent!) large boosts to stats (like mana or mana regen, mostly?) in exchange for body parts or permanent effects as above or a living human (PC) sacrifice.

Magick should be useful. Magick should be scary. Magick should be dangerous. Magick should be weird. Magick should be powerful. Magick should be dark.

[Beethoven]

They're not necessarily just scary because they're unfriendly, although obviously an unfriendly one is scarier. They're scary because their very presence is supposedly volatile. I enjoy playing the discrimination against mages a lot more when I play a superstitious PC rather than one that just frowns and grunts or whatever.

You're not wrong, but the word supposedly is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

For me it's easy enough to maintain incorrect beliefs about what magickers can do, deliberately or no. There's a whole list of superstitions regarding magickers and the little curses/blessings they can lay on you with small actions in the docs. I don't like all of them, but I've definitely used some of them IC (among others of my own invention) and I didn't feel like I was forcing it.

Your PC is (likely) a bumpkin commoner, not too skeptical, not too good at determining causation. Try stopping seeing random unfortunate events as coincidences and start blaming them on witches; it's a lot of fun (in my opinion) and you can really get a sense of how these superstitions can persist even when they aren't logical.

[BadSkeelz]

I really like Tisiphone's suggestions. They'd go a long way towards making magick scary and weird and not just a useful tool with OOC baggage that cheapens the game in multiple ways.

[Bogre]

Yeah, Tisiphone's post was yummy.

[hyzhenhok]

Magick is scary because of the ignorance of the population. Magick is scary because it is unknown and powerful. This is thematically very different from a Lovecraftian-style corruption and insanity attached to the occult that Tisiphone is suggesting.

Not only would this represent a substantially change in the game's magickal theming, there's no reason to think it would even solve the problem. One major problem is players often do not appropriately roleplay the fear and ignorance and superstition they should have towards magick. Why should we expect them to appropriately roleplay fear and insanity and corruption?

Rather than changing the theme, I would rather just reinforce the one we already have. If you want to make magick actually scary and unknown, you don't have to change the theme of the game to accomplish that.

[BadSkeelz]

Except magick isn't scary, unless the person wielding it is an asshat.

[RogueGunslinger]

Except magick isn't scary, unless the person wielding it is an asshat.

If you make an enemy out of a magicker it is scary, and they're not being asshats, they're tryin to survive, roleplay and have fun, like you are.

[BadSkeelz]

But why would any rational person go out of their way to make an enemy of something that is useful, effective, reliable, with zero drawbacks save social ones? There's little incentive for players to follow the docs here, so they don't. Magickers become tolerated, included in more and more things, and ultimately warp the setting from low fantasy gritty post-apocalyptic survival to "everyone has a buddy who can summon food, water, and kill dangerous beasts. Sometimes all three!"

Civilized Magick is in an awkward position where it's hated and feared and carries massive negative connotations, but there's little in game to back it up.

[BadSkeelz]

Daww rath


The more I think about it the more convinced I am that Gemmed are the weak point of Elementalist Magicker RP in the game. But other than removing the temple visiting restrictions, I'm not sure what you'd need to do to fix them and make them feel a more intrinsic part of the game without making them totally unfun.

[Erythil]

My interpretation was always that magic can be perfectly safe and effective (such as in prior or now-destroyed civilizations that seem to have been much nicer places to live than Allanak), but that the templarate has intentionally created a situation based on ignorance and fear in order to monopolize its power for themselves and maintain a stranglehold on what is essentially the world's greatest force.

To my mind, if we're going to go to an example in media, armageddon shares a ton of features in common with Dragon Age, and the way magic works there is similar to how magic works here.  Gemmed = Circle mages, semi-enslaved, misunderstood, used ruthlessly by an organization of holy knights, the Chantry, roughly analogous to Templar, while rogue mages, despite perfectly capable of being The Good Guys, are roundly condemned because of a few Blood Mages (like Defilers) who give the rest of them a bad name.

The world was also clearly a much more magic-accepting society before defiling was discovered by the Dragon.

I think a lot of players have internalized the IC biases in an OOC fashion.  The original goal of Dark Sun was to -fight- the evil biases and oppressive corruption of the setting, not cheerlead it.  The setting is full of ignorant peasants that want to burn down the temples (and have), but that doesn't mean we all have to play them.

There are always people who will go against the dominant views of their society.  'Everyone must react to this in negative fashion X' is as reductive and dumb as the CAM power rangers, just in the opposite direction.

[hyzhenhok]

My point was that if our problem is players currently have no problem rationalizing away something that is supposed to be scary, changing the flavor of what that scariness is supposed to be won't fix anything. We don't need to turn the magick side of Armageddon into a lovecraftian horror game, and even if we did, it wouldn't solve the problem.  And adding stuff that is actually frightening to the player behind the character (if we assume that is the problem) wouldn't require a massive change in theme of the game's magick.

Anyway, "how to make magick scary to players" is probably its own topic.

[Taven]

Reading through this thread, there was one piece that stuck with me the most: People want and like documentation that helps place them in the world


It sounds like some of people's favorite magickers (even ones Badskeelz approves of, which is shocking), are tribal magickers. This is because of the incredible richness and depth of their documentation, which makes them not just folk churning out spells, but place their magick into a system of tribal and spiritual beliefs. It both limits them (what they can do, how they're expected to do it) and strengthens them (giving them a contextual place in the world).

Gemmers don't have documentation. I understand that a lack of temple structure is intentional on the part of staff as an IC representation of the Templars keeping the gemmed from getting too strong, but it leaves people with nothing to fall back on. Gemmers don't have the benefit of being able to explore their magicks in a way that is anything more complex then "these five words do this," unless it is on an individual scale.

What if we gave the gemmed documentation? Let's give people the support and structure they need to explore magick. So the temples are complex places without leadership; maybe this means there are different gemmed factions with different views. Maybe we have stories passed down through the temples about what has happened when gemmed got too strong, whispered of as warnings. Maybe--just maybe--we also have stories for the gemmed that are sources of pride, times when they helped the city and nobody else could (even if the vast majority doesn't know it). We can still keep gemmers as scattered and without control, but let's give them a cultural context.

The idea of mages as being actually scary has come up a few times, which goes hand in hand with making them more complex. I found Tisiphone's post to be an interesting read with some good ideas... But the approach I would take is a little different. What if instead of having coded things that occurred, we had documented guidelines for what could happen to a magicker character? Right now, it's up to the individual, but if we had documentation just for mages that outlined some of the strange and bizarre things that could happen to them as they explore their powers, they could more fully role-play the process--and mundanes could have more to react to as they role-play their hate and mistrust.

As to Wizturbo's idea of more magickers in clans... My gut reaction is to rebel against this. Magickers, especially gemmed, should be limited in what they can do in terms of involvement. They have super powers in some ways; this is limited by their social opportunities. These social limits help ensure that mundanes have more opportunities overall and help keep the mundane/magicker separation better. However... I don't think that this necessarily limits some of the magicker utilization that he was talking about. Having mages not a part of the clan yet still giving leaders an opportunity to utilize them is what I would find ideal. I think this is largely how the current situation works, though.

[Large Hero]

Not only would this represent a substantially change in the game's magickal theming, there's no reason to think it would even solve the problem. One major problem is players often do not appropriately roleplay the fear and ignorance and superstition they should have towards magick.

It's less interesting to roleplay fear of something that isn't actually dangerous unless the player behind the magicker wants it to be. I think it would be more interesting and fun to roleplay fear of magical that actually -was- not able to be perfectly controlled, or that at least warped its users.

Why should we expect them to appropriately roleplay fear and insanity and corruption?

Because under a system like Tisiphone's, it would actually be dangerous, even if the player of the magicker didn't want to be.


Unfortunately, changes like these have little chance to be taken seriously, even if they have merit (and I think Tisiphone's ideas do merit exploration).  Many people will reject many changes out of hand, because it's not the way things were, or the way things are, or that it conflicts with IC lore and history.

To my mind, I'm playing a game, here. The design of the gameplay systems absolutely has to trump the lore or "it's the way things have been" factor.

The logic is simple to me - what's better?

Good gameplay systems and "new" lore to go along with it
Flawed gameplay systems and the lore we've had?

I've been playing for about 5 years now. I've played two magickers in that time - one rogue, one not - and I stored them pretty quickly, because I just don't find the magick system very fun or interesting.

Yes, I know that there's a lot under the hood, behind the scenes (maybe). That doesn't help the day to day experience of playing the role.

Disclaimer - these are just my opinions. Of course your experiences and opinions may vary. I don't claim to be right. I just think there's a healthy amount of people who'd like to see a change - and that probably warrants a change.

[Pale Horse]

I spent a few minutes trying to gathering my thoughts into a post, but Taven basically summed them up.

[Delirium]

My interpretation was always that magic can be perfectly safe and effective (such as in prior or now-destroyed civilizations that seem to have been much nicer places to live than Allanak), but that the templarate has intentionally created a situation based on ignorance and fear in order to monopolize its power for themselves and maintain a stranglehold on what is essentially the world's greatest force.

To my mind, if we're going to go to an example in media, armageddon shares a ton of features in common with Dragon Age, and the way magic works there is similar to how magic works here.  Gemmed = Circle mages, semi-enslaved, misunderstood, used ruthlessly by an organization of holy knights, the Chantry, roughly analogous to Templar, while rogue mages, despite perfectly capable of being The Good Guys, are roundly condemned because of a few Blood Mages (like Defilers) who give the rest of them a bad name.

The world was also clearly a much more magic-accepting society before defiling was discovered by the Dragon.

I think a lot of players have internalized the IC biases in an OOC fashion.  The original goal of Dark Sun was to -fight- the evil biases and oppressive corruption of the setting, not cheerlead it.  The setting is full of ignorant peasants that want to burn down the temples (and have), but that doesn't mean we all have to play them.

There are always people who will go against the dominant views of their society.  'Everyone must react to this in negative fashion X' is as reductive and dumb as the CAM power rangers, just in the opposite direction.

Great post. Not sure about the solution still but this is a very clear-headed thought to keep in mind.

Unfortunately the grey area is a challenging place for many roleplayers adjust to. Especially if they're used to thinking of fantasy settings in very b/w Tolkeinesque terms.

[BadSkeelz]

Kiiiiiiiiinda sounds like you're saying people who don't like magick are bad roleplayers, you two.

Though I do agree with the reasoning here,

My interpretation was always that magic can be perfectly safe and effective (such as in prior or now-destroyed civilizations that seem to have been much nicer places to live than Allanak), but that the templarate has intentionally created a situation based on ignorance and fear in order to monopolize its power for themselves and maintain a stranglehold on what is essentially the world's greatest force.

[TheWanderer]

Magick's place in Arm is beneath the heel of my boot.

[Norcal]

My vision for magick is as follows. This covers both my desired place in the world, and coded changes to accomplish that. That said, I think it roughly covers where magick is 'supposed' to be, according to the documentation. Note also that I'm talking about elementalists; sorcerers are their own bag of wind.

Magick should be useful. Magick should be scary. Magick should be dangerous. Magick should be weird. Magick should be powerful. Magick should be dark.

I would agree with the first five, yet not the last.  Magick in Arm is elemental. It is not -necessarily- twisted or demonic. I see no reason why a Krathi, Viv, Whiran or a Rukkian should be dark, I see nothing dark about their  powers.  For a Nilazi, perhaps twisted is a good word. The darkness you are referring to I think should be more of the human (or whatever race) element, how the person chooses to use magick.  Power corrupts, so elemental power should also in some way corrupt.

I think having some adverse effects when spells go wrong would go a long way to making gickers more feared.  These effects should impact the gicker and those near him/her and they should less frequent as mastery of the spell progresses.  Their should be some consequences when a spell goes awry. 

There has been some discussion in this thread about how the gemmed are eventually tolerated and even to some extent accepted by many mundane PCs. While it is true that this goes against the current documentation, it may be due to the fact that the documentation no longer reflects the reality of how the player base sees the game. The documentation may make the game less playable, and because of that it is pushed aside or ignored in the interest of playability and FUN.

I think elementalists should have a place in clans, because their skills are useful and profitable. And they get used by clans anyway "unofficially". So update the docs to reflect the IC realities.

[Erythil]

Kiiiiiiiiinda sounds like you're saying people who don't like magick are bad roleplayers, you two.

Though I do agree with the reasoning here,

My interpretation was always that magic can be perfectly safe and effective (such as in prior or now-destroyed civilizations that seem to have been much nicer places to live than Allanak), but that the templarate has intentionally created a situation based on ignorance and fear in order to monopolize its power for themselves and maintain a stranglehold on what is essentially the world's greatest force.

I'm arguing that both are valid options, and it's not inherently objectionable to play a 'good guy' in a harsh setting.  It's only when -everyone- is playing one that it becomes theme-breaking.  Not every single person needs to simultaneously be on the letter of what's normal in the world.

[Lizzie]

I agree with Erythil, and point out to Large Hero:
You want to ask "which is better?" But you can't answer that. Better is subjective. Better for whom? If it's better for me, then it'll return to the "end of the world" plots when magick was all over the place, everyone and their brother was a magicker, and there was room reach, and it was insane, and everyone who wasn't a magicker was either in league with one, running from one, or trying to kill one.

That's why there are always these discussions. Because what's better for you isn't going to be what's better for me, or what's better for Badskeelz, or what's better for Desertman or Wizturbo.

There will be -no- agreement on what's better.

[evilcabbage]

cabbage refuses to listen to anything you all say.

tisiphone is right.

vestigeal wings for everyone!

[Large Hero]

I agree with Erythil, and point out to Large Hero:
You want to ask "which is better?" But you can't answer that. Better is subjective. Better for whom? If it's better for me, then it'll return to the "end of the world" plots when magick was all over the place, everyone and their brother was a magicker, and there was room reach, and it was insane, and everyone who wasn't a magicker was either in league with one, running from one, or trying to kill one.

That's why there are always these discussions. Because what's better for you isn't going to be what's better for me, or what's better for Badskeelz, or what's better for Desertman or Wizturbo.

There will be -no- agreement on what's better.

Disclaimer - these are just my opinions. Of course your experiences and opinions may vary. I don't claim to be right.

And actually Lizzie, I have to take exception with one thing you posted.

Because what's better for you isn't going to be what's better for me, or what's better for Badskeelz, or what's better for Desertman or Wizturbo.

Interesting systems that support the theme - those that make the most amount of people want to play the characters who use those systems,  whatever the theme happens to be - would be better for everyone.

I actually wouldn't care much either way if there were much less magick in the world, or if, to exaggerate, every character was given fireball, teleport and polymorph upon loading in at the Gaj - so long as there were interesting, fun and robust gameplay supporting it.

I wouldn't care if this was Mad Max RPI, or Merlin's Camelot RPI, or Star Wars RPI (ok, I'm exaggerating a little), so long as 1) I got to participate in shared storytelling with a group of players who I've found over the years to have some real talent and 2) the code was fun and supported what the game was going for.

As it stands, my personal opinion is that the magick system as current has a lot of flaws that could stand serious analysis. Some percentage of the playerbase feels the systems can be improved. That's why there are always these discussions.

[Tisiphone]

Magick is scary because of the ignorance of the population. Magick is scary because it is unknown and powerful. This is thematically very different from a Lovecraftian-style corruption and insanity attached to the occult that Tisiphone is suggesting.

This is how it works now, yes. Except I maintain it isn't really working, at least not for a number of players, as evinced by threads like these.

Not only would this represent a substantially change in the game's magickal theming, there's no reason to think it would even solve the problem. One major problem is players often do not appropriately roleplay the fear and ignorance and superstition they should have towards magick. Why should we expect them to appropriately roleplay fear and insanity and corruption?

Because the coded reality would better support it than the coded reality currently supports the theme now.

Rather than changing the theme, I would rather just reinforce the one we already have. If you want to make magick actually scary and unknown, you don't have to change the theme of the game to accomplish that.

I know you don't have to change the theme. I want the theme changed, because I like my proposed theme better than the one we have now. Also, I think it dovetails nicely into the one we have now and is a better, more fun way to go about magick being scary and dangerous.

Also, point of order: you don't have to go to Lovecraft for weirdness. I'm not suggesting we attach magick to some kind of outer darkness that eats away at the sanity of mortal man or betrays the true horror of the universe. I think the universe is fine as it is without being a soap-bubble floating in a terrifying void. Instead, what I'm proposing is that the elements - the primal forces, connected to the world, that drive elemental magick - are inhuman, and inhuman in a way that over time twists and changes those who get to close to them. That's a theme we have already seen played out in the world, and I'd like to bring the every-day coded reality closer to that, because it seems more fun to me than what we have now.

[Large Hero]

Instead, what I'm proposing is that the elements - the primal forces, connected to the world, that drive elemental magick - are inhuman, and inhuman in a way that over time twists and changes those who get to close to them. That's a theme we have already seen played out in the world, and I'd like to bring the every-day coded reality closer to that, because it seems more fun to me than what we have now.

Good point. There's already history of this sort of thing in game. Emphasizing it would be cool and wouldn't (shouldn't) upset the people who don't want to see lore changed in any way.

[Kryos]

I have a thought that some of the complaint generated in this topic is a meta problem, not a character problem.  The meta problem is that before you played magick users, learned what they could do, their strengths and limitations, or were subjected to them you probably as a player thought magic was volatile and scary.  Once you get over the magick hump, as it were, you the player draw your own conclusions about what magick is or isn't regarding volatile and scary.

This should have no impact on how characters perceive it, however.  Further, its inevitable.  No matter what system is in place, or even if its updated, eventually it will come to be understood and we will find ourselves in a revolving door right back here.  I also vastly dislike enforcing arbitrary behaviors to magick users.  Less of a box to be confined to is usually a good thing for creative people.

For my part, I would suggest that magick is scary.  With one spell, a magick user can end your life.  One, spell.  Poof, you're dead.  That's scary.  Magick is volatile.  I've had characters beset by foul witches and defilers with no warning, in an array of introductions to the school of hard knocks.  Just as many times, I've had characters gently seduced to try and lure them to the dark side.  Once or twice, some magickal jerk mugged one of my pcs.  Pretty volatile and unpredictable as an experience, I'd say, even on a player level.

I would say a more honed purpose for the gemmed may be enjoyed, but I suspect that is greatly dependent on the Templar running their show.  Though I've been mystified a long time why one or two specific groups don't use magick users abundantly, I've also not peeked fully behind their curtains.

Lastly, the hyperbole annoys me.  Casters have limitations on them, they cannot infinitely sustain actions of magick, nor can they snap their fingers and alter reality in shattering scale while taking their morning dump.  It serves little purpose to treat them as if they do have infinite resources or world shattering poop when discussing them.

[Norcal]

Instead, what I'm proposing is that the elements - the primal forces, connected to the world, that drive elemental magick - are inhuman, and inhuman in a way that over time twists and changes those who get to close to them. That's a theme we have already seen played out in the world, and I'd like to bring the every-day coded reality closer to that, because it seems more fun to me than what we have now.

I do not fully understand the need to disassociate elements from life, and make them some sort of occult thing. There are already lots of games that have such a theme. The elements are what make up life. The whole idea is that they are part of life as it exists and that life cannot exist without them. That is the reason why some sentient mortal beings have access to elemental power. It is a part of their "humanity" not something distant from it that they obtained by an arcane ritual. The current system or theme, implies that mortals are connected to the physical world, to the elements.

That essential nature of the elements to life is the idea behind the various tribal magick users, as I see it any way. I also do not understand why any change has to be something that twists, or is dark or somehow inhuman. Power corrupts and there is power in magick. I find it refreshing that Arm offers a different theme on magick, one that is not somehow dark and occult.

[Warsong]

If being gemmed was something you could keep secret with the templarate's permission, it would at least open up opportunities for interesting social conflicts. In its current form, I find that the gemmed concept is pretty much just negative, detracting from the game without adding anything except maybe a safer way for players to try magick for the first time. The fact that every gemmer is instantly identifiable simply rules out any hope of meaningful roleplay toward the social stigma.

Some could then choose to be openly gemmed so as to not risk offending somebody and provoking hostile reactions, and others could keep it secret, with perhaps an identifying tattoo that potential employers can check for. Hell, this will even make employment slightly more prestigious for ordinary people as it'll essentially be proof that you aren't a magicker (or are at least a rogue one). Minor side benefit.

I'm just desperate for anything other than the current model which is frankly dysfunctional and bad for roleplay.

[Delirium]

I like the idea of some sort of magical mark instead of a gem. You get a tattoo that adds a permanent magical effect to you that works just like the gem.

Anyone with the ability to detect magic can see it, regardless of if it's covered up, it just glows right through your clothes.

But otherwise it just looks like a normal tattoo that you can cover up if you so choose. Add a bit of mystery and uncertainty.

Suspicious people might force someone to, say, pull up their sleeve and prove they're not a dirty witch... by force, if need be.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just make the "about the throat" wear slot get covered up by the neck slot.  Then gemmed could hide it if they wanted to. Why exactly does the general populace need to know that someone is a magicker?

[wizturbo]

It would be neat to be able to conceal the Gem from the casual observer.  No real reason it can't be done except for code limitations, or I suppose you could say it's a law that it be openly shown.  Doesn't mean people have to follow the law.

[FantasyWriter]

I've always considered the Gem to be a Nazi-Era Yellow Star of David, so far as the day to day commoner was concerned.
"These people are different, and scary, and lower than the rest of us, so we, the Kind and Caring Government have pointed them out to you, so that their taint cannot harm you without your knowledge."

[CodeMaster]

It would be neat to be able to conceal the Gem from the casual observer.  No real reason it can't be done except for code limitations, or I suppose you could say it's a law that it be openly shown.  Doesn't mean people have to follow the law.

I like this angle because it gives peek another roleplayable dimension.

[Armaddict]

No, the role of magick in the game should not change just because there are more people who insist on playing mages more often, but don't like how magick is regarded in the game world.

I do not play elves and complain about the place of elves in the world.  I do not play half-elves and complain about their place in the world.  Doing such is a degradation of the game I enjoy, because the setting is what it is because of those explicitly stated roles.  People -do- still roleplay fear of mages.  Players -do- still fear mages, because of what they can do to other people's pc's.

The system of magick can be modified and changed as needed  No problems there.  The setting turning from one where I can play in a mostly non-magickal setting into one where I'm forced to endure it so that you can play the other half of the classes you enjoy without dealing with the the social implications of said role is a ridiculous, selfish concept.  If you -really- want to play a more magickal setting, then find one.  This one is a low-magick setting, and to pull a 180 on that will allow you to play it, but likely with a lot less people.

Edited to add:  I only read the last little bit.  So forgive me for not responding to the surely-better posts that were in here, but I just honed in on the ones that, once again, started pushing for mages to be involved in the day-to-day of everyone else more often.

[Inks]

Everything Armaddict said above.

I feel like it's the save five players on both sides of this argument posting in every magick related forum. Says something about GDBs generally, I think.

[Pale Horse]

Everything Armaddict said above.

I feel like it's the save five players on both sides of this argument posting in every magick related forum. Says something about GDBs generally, I think.

Yeah 

It's a comparatively small percentage of the overall player-base which actually posts on the GDB.  Whenever any topic gets re-hashed or brought back up in any thread, it's going to be the same people with the same opinions post again.

As far as the main topic, I'm going to have to agree that the place of magickers and magick IG should be kept as is, for the same reasons as have already been stated.

That said, I am not adverse to having magickers be more social or accepted.  If you want to have a magicker be so, create said space yourself IG.  Start a secret society, form a cabal of rogue mages, congregate in one of the inconveniently-placed saved rooms out in the ass-end of the Known.  A group of cooperating magickers could plop themselves down in the middle of the volcano and turn it into a 'Gicker-only club-house through purely IC means if they had the motivation and enough of them.  Just expect IG consequences (good or bad) if it happens.

[MeTekillot]

Low fantasy is about living in a world of monsters and magic, not about living in a world where these things are rare. People are only vocally anti-magick in the vast majority of cases because they can never kill enough turaals to parry a sorcerer's fireball and unspeakable his neck through his magick defense.

They don't like that magickers have power over them that they didn't achieve through certain means, or that it's unfair. I don't know why arguments of fairness and blance are entertained so much with magick but not when a Lord Templar introduces you to his five fave half-giants.

[Armaddict]

Not sure if you're talking about my 'low magick setting' or not, because I never called it low fantasy, nor do I really want to get into the semantics of definitions where they don't apply.  I was describing something which can be readily gleaned through context.

Point made (or attempting to be made) was that Armageddon is fairly distinct in its position on mages, magick, and on having it be a roleplaying game where characters aren't grouping up with mages to go get things done like hardy bands of adventurers.  It sets it apart, and frankly, sets the 'roleplaying' aspect a step higher in the right direction in my opinion.  Characters feel more real in their daily struggles when they can't just turn to a resource that just makes it happen.

This is repeatedly brought up as a playability aspect, and it's not.  The role of mages is completely playable.  The problem lies less in magick's place in the world, and more in magick's place in some people's heads; this is more of a concern of stubbornly clinging to a role some don't actually enjoy as much as they do the mechanics involved in it.  Loving magick, and loving magickers, are two different things, and those who want to play mages more should be finding a way to enjoy what they want to do, not trying to get everyone else to cater to their enjoyment of some mechanics and abilities.

Likewise, this has little to do with balance.  I'm never concerned with balance.  Mages are powerful, and they should be.  However, the idea that some people get bored playing them means we should drastically morph the outlook and basis of the game world is, again, selfish and shortsighted and to a small degree nonsensical.  Such an implementation would drive away those who specifically came for that type of setting, which I think is pretty safe to say we've all come to enjoy as is.  Looking for a setting that is more welcoming is easy.  Finding a setting like this one is hard.  Hence my position of

If you -really- want to play a more magickal setting, then find one.

Again, I'm not adverse to changes to magick.  But I am against drastic shifts in the game world for what is, essentially, a completely misrepresented reason that is more based in a personal want than the benefit of the game.

[Asmoth]

When you look at the GDB and the posters, versus the game and WHO, you will see that vocal minority is the rule of thumb on the GDB.

I'm sure there are tons of people who lurk, but don't share their opinion for a variety of reasons.

But it's also a bit unreasonable to think that just because the vocal minority is wrong just because the same five folks chime in on everything in the opposition to the for or against column.

I would think Staff are the only ones who know how people love or hate shit based on requests and private complaints to staff.

[Molten Heart]

Here is an interesting thread. It seems mostly still relevant. Follow the link for the whole thread.

I've moved the bulk of this post from another thread, which began as a discussion on how mundane people should more appropriately demonstrate fear of the "magicker" with a few suggestions.  My response began with a quote from Pantoufle:

I see more "issues" with the magicker population, itself, than with the "mundane" PCs who respond to magickers.

Firstly, there are simply way too many magickers in the game. I'm guilty of this, having played a long stream of spellcasting characters, myself, but the fact remains: there are just too many.

I agree completely. There is a notion in the documentation that magickers are this rare and mysterious breed capable of wielding immense power that warrants respect and fear. This fear is supposedly based on two things; that the general populace knows very little of them for lack of interaction/experience, and that magickers wield freakish levels of power.

As Pantoufle has mentioned, one of the problems is that they are not rare.

Were they ever rare? No. The problem is that IC events have completely changed the role of the magicker in the gameworld (in my opinion, for the worse) which has subsequently affected class development, world views, and this very discussion today. Here is how that happened:

A terrifying and presumably magickal cataclysm strikes the city-state of Tuluk, leaving it to be nothing more than a pile of rubble and ruins. Over seventy thousand people are killed that day in what has since come to be known as the Fall of Tuluk. During the chaos, Precentor Kul manages to overthrow Precentor Isar and gains control over what little remains.

Before the Cataclysm, magickers had a viable role in the southlands, middle, and northlands.  They weren't hunted down like dogs outside the city walls.  The weren't chased with torches and pitchforks or called abominations.  They had the opportunity to live as men and women using their skills to operate as a peaceful and productive, if potentially dangerous, part of society.  The only magickers that were hunted down and killed were sorcerers and raiding magickers, who were relatively rare because each city-state had a wealth of elementalists in their emply to help identify and deal with such magickal threats.

Enter the Cataclysm

Now magickers have been ousted from the northlands. Hated and feared, selecting anything other than a southern-based magicker now comes with a giant neon sign above their head that reads, "Dangerous critter, kill on sight." This began a horrible cycle of events, both IC and OOC:

:arrow: The Cataclysm teaches northerners that "magick is bad, mmkay?"  Norrthern players begin hunting magickers, killing them on sight.

:arrow: No longer able to enjoy relative peace while they gain enough proficiency to protect themselves from mundane threats, the elementalist guilds are reworked to be given more useful spells earlier and faster progression through the tree.

:arrow: Those players choosing to create northern magickers were now predators or prey, or both. They no longer had a peaceful role to assume within the northern city-state, but were forced instead of be "on the run" and acknowledge that an entire civilization would likely only ever consider them an abomination to be executed as soon as possible.

:arrow: Magickers are pushed out of Tuluk and forced to find locations in which they can survive and practice their craft. These places happen to be the very same places frequented by isolated desert elf and nomadic human tribes, forcing these players to interact with these new magickal threats that normally were not commonly found.

:arrow: Now we have every magicker (not just sorcerers and magickers choosing to raid) running around the northern wilderness trying desperately (or not so desperately) to survive. There are few mundane organizations with which they can interact because most of them consider magickers highly dangerous and will kill them on sight.

This IC event has forever changed the role of the magicker in game. Once a working part of society, in which they could add to the story in a multitude of peaceful and useful ways, they have become a glass cannon aimed squarely at anyone that invades the spaces they've invaded. Magicker numbers seem higher, not because they're more of them, but because the most common interaction is likely a great display of their power. Magickers who would have otherwise been content to create food, water, mounts, and aid a given Merchant House in their tasks are now forced to defend themselves with violent magick. Magick with which the average mundane character cannot compete.

This change in interaction has also changed some perceptions. Some mundane characters, espcially tribals, who used to only have to deal with a few rare magickal threats are now forced to deal with them almost daily. What used to be a rare and mysterious creature has now become a prevalent and dangerous predator to specific (but large) areas of the game.

The influx of these magickal beings fighting for survival causes other groups to engage and, eventually, kill them. Immortals then feel obligated to give magickers even more teeth so that people are appropriately "afraid" of them, but that only furthers the divide of power and makes the non-magickal player feel like an inconsequential and ineffective part of "Magickgeddon."

I know that I've felt this way ever since independant magickers had no viable role in the northlands. And I know others have too. There is no proposed solution, because IC events are IC events, but are there suggestions for a way to allow northern magickers a role other than predator/prey?  I think having so large a group of people considered "hated and dangerous" by so many greatly limits the potential not only of their characters, but of the game itself.

-LoD