Main Guild Discussion

[wizturbo]

Since the staff are thinking about guild changes, here are my two cents on suggestions for each guild.




• All:  Give everyone parry at varying levels.  Warrior>Assassin=Ranger>Pickpocket=Burglar>Elementalists=Merchant.

Mundanes

• Warrior:  Let warriors branch advanced weapons around journeyman.  Advanced weapons should be the primary perk of Guild Warrior, not some rare and treasured thing.


• Ranger:  Reduce ranger's skill caps in bandage, brew, & listen.  Bandage skill max should increase on subguild physician and apothecary to be the highest in the game.  Listen is essentially an easedropping skill in practice, so Rangers shouldn't be so good at it.  


• Burglar:  Give pickmaking as a starting skill.  Make picks break much more often than they do now so this skill becomes more essential.  Make more locks that require master quality lockpicks to open, make master quality lockpicks require rare and valuable materials to craft.  Improve poison use skill cap a bit, it's just awful at its current level.  Add all standard weapons at similar skill caps as existing weapons.  


• Assassin:  Have assassin's start with sap, and branch backstab off of sap.  Knocking someone out has more roleplay opportunities than killing them swiftly, and is easier to do.  Down the road, reintroduce the trap skill, but instead of making things go boom, instead have it apply a poison effect on the target.  Traps would be hidden poison needles, inhaled powders, etc.  Add all standard weapons at similar skill caps as existing weapons.  


• Pickpocket:  Have them start with hide and sleight of hand, been a LONG time since I've played a pickpocket so maybe this is already the case. Add all standard weapons at similar skill caps as existing weapons.

• *Added Merchant:  Add all standard weapons at apprentice skill cap.  Give them the highest cap on scan and listen in the game.  

Elementalists

*Update:  All skills below start at novice (0).  These skills don't represent any past training or experience, they represent potential, can be used to help assist in "cantrip" effects, or are linked to the lifestyle these elementalists tend to lean towards.  Keep in mind, these elementalist guilds have to support both rogue elementalists and Gemmed.  The playstyles of each are very different from one another.

• Water:  Add master bandage, advanced brew and advanced poison use skill to their skillset.
• Stone:  Add journeyman climb, journeyman direction sense, journeyman wilderness hide , and advanced stonecrafting to their skillset.
• Fire:  Add advanced cooking (lol), apprentice slashing weapons, apprentice jewelry making, and improved ability to learn languages to their skillset.
• Shadow:  Add advanced listen, advanced hide (city and wilderness), and journeyman sleight of hand to their skillset.
• Lightning:  Add journeyman throw, journeyman hunt (both city and wilderness), and advanced sneak (city and wilderness) to their skillset .
• Wind:  Add journeyman scan, journeyman archery, and journeyman climb to their skillset.
• Void:  Add advanced backstab, apprentice piercing weapons and an improved tolerance to pain.

Sorcs/Psions

• Sorcerer:  N/A, the tweaks to the main guilds will affect them too.
• Psionicist:  Secret.  I'll be glad to share via request tool if staff are interested.

[/list]

[Delirium]

Erm, listen is good for a lot more than just eavesdropping.

[evilcabbage]

i don't really see why drovians need advanced hide or sleight of hand.

rangers do not need reduced utility skills, they need to be less like desert warriors.

[wizturbo]

Erm, listen is good for a lot more than just eavesdropping.

A lot more?  Or just detecting sneak?  That's the only other use I'm aware of.

[wizturbo]

i don't really see why drovians need advanced hide or sleight of hand.

rangers do not need reduced utility skills, they need to be less like desert warriors.

They'll be less like desert warriors if warriors are wielding advanced weapons.

Very few of the skill adds to elementalists are about need.  They're about flavor.  Drovians having advanced hide would let them skulk in the shadows a bit, something that seems entirely in line with the fantasy surrounding the guild.  The sleight of hand addition is for the same reason the Majordomo and House Servant get it.

[BadSkeelz]

All of those Mage suggestions sound terrible and game-breaking, especially as more skills are avaiable through Extended Subguilds. You take a magick guild to be a magicker. Giving them mundane skills that are thematically similar to their magick skills is redundant and kind of insulting to both magickers and mundanes. Take an extended subguild if you want to do more things.


I think "Warriors branch advanced weapons at Journeyman" is a little too early. Maybe have them branch at advanced. I think Advanced Weapons themselves would need a close look to make sure they're not too unbalanced that their wide(r)spread presence would be destabilizing to the rest of the game.

Not sure "give burglars more picks, but make more locks stronger" is a sound argument for making them more fun and realistic. Wouldn't it just funnel new burglars in to hitting a smaller number of pickable doors over and over?

Swapping sap and backstab around on assassins is interesting, but not sure it'd do much good. Sap is just as deadly as backstab if you really want it to be. Instead of more roleplay, you'd probably just see people get sapped more and then finished off. Especially if sap is indeed an "Easier" skill to use.

[valeria]

What I would like to see is the addition of mundane skills where it makes sense that there would be a mundane skill that is similar to certain spell effect.

I won't go into details of what some spells could do, but some of these things should be accomplishable by mundane means and... just... aren't.  To me, a lot of these are silly code quirks that makes mundanes feel unnecessarily limited.

This is on my wish list, the wish list that includes "look hemote" 

[Delirium]

What I would like to see is the addition of mundane skills where it makes sense that there would be a mundane skill that is similar to certain spell effect.

yes please.

wizturbo, detecting sneak is important for rangers in the wilderness. you're asking for them to be crippled in an area they're supposed to be the masters of.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Giving witches listen would be a godsend frankly. There'd actually be a point in going to the tavern.

[Marauder Moe]

Dubious balance aside, giving mages "mundane" skills related to magickal cantrip abilities is kind of a cool idea.  I've always kind of wished that cantrips had SOME sort of coded representation.

Anyway, I'm going to hold my judgement/suggestions about the new guild changes until I see what the new guild changes are.

[wizturbo]

All of those Mage suggestions sound terrible and game-breaking, especially as more skills are avaiable through Extended Subguilds. You take a magick guild to be a magicker. Giving them mundane skills that are thematically similar to their magick skills is redundant and kind of insulting to both magickers and mundanes. Take an extended subguild if you want to do more things.

You're pretty biased against magickers, so I take your criticism with a grain of salt.  I'd be curious to hear other opinions before I debate this with you

I think "Warriors branch advanced weapons at Journeyman" is a little too early. Maybe have them branch at advanced. I think Advanced Weapons themselves would need a close look to make sure they're not too unbalanced that their wide(r)spread presence would be destabilizing to the rest of the game.

Maybe a valid point.  I don't really know, I haven't gotten a Warrior up to advanced weapons before.  Would definitely need to be looked at, but I'm guessing their legendary power is due to the fact that those who manage to branch them are extremely powerful already at that point.

Not sure "give burglars more picks, but make more locks stronger" is a sound argument for making them more fun and realistic. Wouldn't it just funnel newbie burglars in to hitting a smaller number of pickable doors over and over?

The idea would be to make some apartments require special lockpicks to break into.  Burglars shouldn't have open access to every non-clan guarded room in the city without jumping through some hoops to do it.  The rare materials used to make these picks would create an interesting dynamic, requiring burglars to get access to them in order to break into those more secure places.  That probably means they need an accomplice, or deal with the merchant houses to get those materials.

Swapping sap and backstab around on assassins is interesting, but not sure it'd do much good. Sap is just as deadly as backstab if you really want it to be. Instead of more roleplay, you'd probably just see people get sapped more and then finished off. Especially if sap is indeed an "Easier" skill to use.

Agreed sap is just as deadly, but you can emote/roleplay out the scene more, with less abrupt end for the victim, and you have a choice about whether or not to finish them off.  Assassins can be hired to send a message to someone rather than kill them with Sap.

[evilcabbage]

i agree with all of that.

certain abilities aren't needed by mages. i don't think giving them wilderness and city hide is a good idea.

maybe one or the other, and at less than advanced.

their magick is already really powerful.

listen, however, is a tool that things like drovians should get.

[wizturbo]

wizturbo, detecting sneak is important for rangers in the wilderness. you're asking for them to be crippled in an area they're supposed to be the masters of.

I didn't say remove listen from their skills, I just don't see why they need to be literally the best at it (along with a half dozen other things on top of it...)

[Jingo]

Burglar skill caps need to be rethunk right across the board.

I'm actually not against the elementalist skills, it will give them something to do if they don't want to immediately sling spells. Our absolute worst case scenario is that we can have a pc that can hide, fight and spell. ---oh wait desert elves.

What I would -love- to see are more elementalist abilities that arn't classic spells. Almost ever spell effect in the game is a cast and then immediate/long-term effect. I would like to see more interesting ritual magicks, passive inborn effects and routes to power that aren't casting over and over.

[BadSkeelz]

Can we also make spell-cast leveling actually dangerous? I take more damage raising Ride from journeyman to advanced than people do fully branching a magicker.

[Beethoven]

What I would not want to see is people guildsniffing magickers based on the mundane skills that are associated with their guild, and I'm afraid this sort of thing would lead to that. Already they are guild-sniffed based on the mundane skills they -don't- have and subguild caps. Extended subguilds help a little but I'm still a little uncomfortable thinking about the consequences.

[Patuk]

Make more locks that require master quality lockpicks to open, make master quality lockpicks require rare and valuable materials to craft.

.. Dude. This sounds condescending as fuck, but have you ever played a burglar beyond the two day mark?

[wizturbo]

Can we also make spell-cast leveling actually dangerous? I take more damage raising Ride from journeyman to advanced than people do fully branching a magicker.

100% for this.  Removing "nil" as a starting reach for magickers elementalists is something I've always supported.

[wizturbo]

Make more locks that require master quality lockpicks to open, make master quality lockpicks require rare and valuable materials to craft.

.. Dude. This sounds condescending as fuck, but have you ever played a burglar beyond the two day mark?

I have played 80+ days (about 2000 hours) as burglars between multiple characters.  I'm not suggesting making any commonly available apartments require master tools to open.  Locks inside noble estates, merchant house compounds, or apartments set aside for either might be worth considering though.

[Delirium]

Dude, I usually agree with you whole-heartedly, but in this case I guess I'm glad you're not in charge of refactoring the guilds.

The ranger skill list makes total sense as it exists. The other guilds are the ones that need some expansion and love.

If you limit the listen skill, that means they'll be less effective at noticing sneaky NPCs, which means they'll be less effective at, well... rangering.

[wizturbo]

All I'm saying is reduce listen to advanced or low master and bandage/brew to advanced.  Extremely minor tweaks.  Delirium, I think you're going to look back at my suggestions for Ranger and wish that's the only thing staff did to that guild...  Guess we'll find out soon

[Delirium]

The ranger skill list makes total sense as it exists. The other guilds are the ones that need some expansion and love.

and that's gonna be my opinion regardless of what actually happens, so yeah, I guess we will see.

There's a reason I posted that gif of nervous Bender.

[JBlack]

Okay... I created this thread so we can voice our worries, joy, and hopes over upcoming changes to Main Guilds. What i am nervous about is the possibility of change to guilds that seem to work like rangers. I figure changes will have playability in mind and know you peoples have a better, broader view. I think there is a lot of dialogue from the player side that can and should be heard out, too and a few common concerns we all should touch on is what people want to see changed, what the game needs more of, and how this will positively or negatively affect the gameworld.

I do fear the nerf bat takin a beating on my favorite guild, but maybe they need it and I would like to read more about what everyone is thinking

[Jingo]

Rangers get all the skills and beyond decent fight. I could see it becoming split into two guilds but with differing caps.

[evilcabbage]

rangers need their melee combat abilities toned -down-, at least a bit.