Should Armageddon Mud be Open Sourced?

[Lizzie]

Considering the vast number of polls we've had on the GDB in the past, I'd say this one resulted in a really REALLY REALLY REALLY clear indication, at an extremely short period of time, that the answer to the OP's question is - categorically, undoubtedly, specifically, concisely, and most definitely,

No.

Considering the sheer magnitude of no-ness to the answer to this question, it really doesn't matter why the answer is no at this point. My reason: Because it feels wrong. Here's me, elaborating on it: "Because I think it feels wrong, to me."

[Maziel]

Considering the vast number of polls we've had on the GDB in the past, I'd say this one resulted in a really REALLY REALLY REALLY clear indication, at an extremely short period of time, that the answer to the OP's question is - categorically, undoubtedly, specifically, concisely, and most definitely,

No.

Considering the sheer magnitude of no-ness to the answer to this question, it really doesn't matter why the answer is no at this point. My reason: Because it feels wrong. Here's me, elaborating on it: "Because I think it feels wrong, to me."

Eh. It's Indicative that the players that frequent the gdb think so. Even that is a bit misleading given that I think one has to be signed in to vote. To me, it indicates that this demographic strongly objects to the idea. Timing is involved as well - the surprising amount of rejections which grossly misunderstood the intent is likely tied to this. If that's representative of the poll, then there's a large % of voters that were voting on something else.

[Chettaman]

I don't believe I have any misconceptions about the poll question. And timing didn't affect my decision either.
What do you think about my counter arguments?

[Maziel]

I don't believe I have any misconceptions about the poll question. And timing didn't affect my decision either.
What do you think about my counter arguments?

I'd say it's contrary to what you've said previously. Criminal element, etc etc

[Case]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Got nothing to elaborate on. I've worked on a lot of software. I don't see how doing this creates the outcomes you described in my experience. Some things are better open source, some things are irrelevant open source, some things are worse. Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

[Chettaman]

Criminals can be productive. I can admit that. Sometimes people have to do terrible things to be productive.

This one was the last post on the previous page.
"it would boost popularity, but possibly splitting the playerbase would be counter productive to the game becoming more popular. *unless it were like an incredible increase. Alright. I'll give you that. I see where you're coming from. But I don't think the result of sharing the code will be as "profitable" as you believe.
More innovation definitely true. - but this can already be done without exposing the code. It's already being done if you ask me. It's not super-incredible fast, but it's happening and I love it.
addressing less diverse... um. I don't think of diversity when I'm playing my video games, but more diversity would be my goal if I aimed for it.
I guess less diversity in terms of role player to people who play to ''win''? I'm not sure really what you meant by less diversity."

[Maziel]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

[Case]

What's most likely to happen is somebody with a community college class of Java under their belt gets the C code and futzes about trying to set up another of a server to try run it, with endless issues with file locations and database schemas. They get it working, hack in an admin account, log in... empty. Make a few admin rooms with no description. A zone or two in advance. Grab some buddies to come join in make a sweet game based on some post apocalyptic japan comic series, build a table, maybe a set of the best armor ever and a weapon, then try play without much in the way of a world, backstory or any kind of game culture. Try drum up some players, maybe do a wiki up with mostly stubbed but for the good interesting race choices and the one guild that works mostly ok, do some superficial changes to the stat system or something, edit a few spells, try slap together a basic village, try and watch in frustration as all the Armageddon hardcode fucks up AI and references weird things and players don't really have any direction.

There'll be a give up point somewhere.

What could happen is an organised individual busts their ass and learns the right skills to make a game and drives a creative vision, but it's so so rare in Muds. It sucks. I know I've tried and failed a couple of times. I don't even have to learn the skills and it still sucks.


Either way, it won't benefit armageddon.

[Maziel]

Criminals can be productive. I can admit that. Sometimes people have to do terrible things to be productive.

You're making me sad. That's really quite upsetting. It reaffirms my previous sentiment though. I think I'm done here.

[Case]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

[Chettaman]

Well, I'm not calling you a criminal. I'm saying that criminals can be productive.
For example; Nobunaga Oda. The person who began uniting japan out of its fudal era by going to war with literally the entire country. While the people didn't enjoy being taken over - his dream of uniting japan under one banner was a success. There was still fighting and all this and that, but look at it now. Japan doesn't seem that bad, but I've never been. I can only assume.

Please be reasonable. I'm only trying to gain knowledge, because maybe I'm wrong in my thinking.

[Maziel]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

I have programming experience as well. A case worth discussing is as simple as ' there are good and bad candidates for open sourcing. Good candidates are usually community driven. Arm is community driven. Discuss.' We have, in fact, gone well beyond that. Don't pin your attitude problem on me.

[Armaddict]

If you really want to contribute code to the game, ask to do so.  But there's no reason to disseminate the code out to more people because they weren't making an Armageddon codebase when they modified it this much.  They were making a MUD, and they want to keep it as theirs, or they would have likely already released said code.

[Maziel]

If you really want to contribute code to the game, ask to do so.  But there's no reason to disseminate the code out to more people because they weren't making an Armageddon codebase when they modified it this much.  They were making a MUD, and they want to keep it as theirs, or they would have likely already released said code.

Good points. I'm taking a break, but I'll give a write up tomorrow with some follow up thoughts.

[Case]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

I have programming experience as well. A case worth discussing is as simple as ' there are good and bad candidates for open sourcing. Good candidates are usually community driven. Arm is community driven. Discuss.' We have, in fact, gone well beyond that. Don't pin your attitude problem on me.

I thought you'd stopped posting from all the crippling disappointment?

I'm not convinced by anything posted so far. I don't have to say why.

I have also offered to contribute (and been accepted).

[Maziel]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

I have programming experience as well. A case worth discussing is as simple as ' there are good and bad candidates for open sourcing. Good candidates are usually community driven. Arm is community driven. Discuss.' We have, in fact, gone well beyond that. Don't pin your attitude problem on me.

I thought you'd stopped posting from all the crippling disappointment?

I'm not convinced by anything posted so far. I don't have to say why.

I have also offered to contribute (and been accepted).

Crippling disappointment wasn't it. I was specifically responding to the back and forths Chettaman; I don't have anything to say there anymore.

No you don't. You don't have to be nice either, but it'd be appreciated. Jalden is saying we should just play a different game because there's too much negativity in the gdb.

[Lizzie]

The OP made a poll. In less than a day, over 50 people responded to it. That's more than most polls on this forum get in a week. That's how much interest it received. That's a lot, in a very short period of time. People also responded by posting their reasons why not. You posted why you liked the idea, but many people posted why it wasn't a good idea. You argued with them, to counter their reasoning. You challenged their opinion, they stuck with it. You kept on about it- they weren't interested in changing their minds. But that wasn't enough for you, you kept pushing. And pushing. And pushing. And eventually some of us felt that you needed to just - stop pushing. So we pushed back. And you didn't get the hint. Those of us who disagreed before you posted your reasons why it's a good idea, still think it's not a good idea. You haven't convinced any of us otherwise, and reiterating the same reasoning over and over again isn't likely to do anything other than make some of us grumpy.

If that makes you sad, well - sorry. But you continually pushing for something that no one wants is making a lot of people grumpy.

[Maziel]

The OP made a poll. In less than a day, over 50 people responded to it. That's more than most polls on this forum get in a week. That's how much interest it received. That's a lot, in a very short period of time. People also responded by posting their reasons why not. You posted why you liked the idea, but many people posted why it wasn't a good idea. You argued with them, to counter their reasoning. You challenged their opinion, they stuck with it. You kept on about it- they weren't interested in changing their minds. But that wasn't enough for you, you kept pushing. And pushing. And pushing. And eventually some of us felt that you needed to just - stop pushing. So we pushed back. And you didn't get the hint. Those of us who disagreed before you posted your reasons why it's a good idea, still think it's not a good idea. You haven't convinced any of us otherwise, and reiterating the same reasoning over and over again isn't likely to do anything other than make some of us grumpy.

If that makes you sad, well - sorry. But you continually pushing for something that no one wants is making a lot of people grumpy.

Again, the sad bit was for the constant criminal comparisons.  Also the nephew choking. I just can't follow anymore on that line and stay level headed. The negativity wasn't from the poll results. There have been some good discussions here. Others have gone far out of their way to do worse than not contributing at all.

Pushing really isn't fair. I've been far more on the defense than I'd like if anything.

[Case]

Crippling disappointment wasn't it. I was specifically responding to the back and forths Chettaman; I don't have anything to say there anymore.

No you don't. You don't have to be nice either, but it'd be appreciated. Jalden is saying we should just play a different game because there's too much negativity in the gdb.

I'm perfectly capable of being nice. I was being nice originally. Direct, but not mean. It's only when you saw fit to say I have nothing to contribute that I got mean.

I see no purpose for this. At all. It makes no sense. It solves no known problems. It's just a want you have. It doesn't benefit Arm itself. If they want coders, they'll take coders.

[Maziel]

Crippling disappointment wasn't it. I was specifically responding to the back and forths Chettaman; I don't have anything to say there anymore.

No you don't. You don't have to be nice either, but it'd be appreciated. Jalden is saying we should just play a different game because there's too much negativity in the gdb.

I'm perfectly capable of being nice. I was being nice originally. Direct, but not mean. It's only when you saw fit to say I have nothing to contribute that I got mean.

Okay let's take a look.

No it shouldn't is my short answer.

No real reason to is my long answer.

That was fine. Nobody responded.

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

Not constructive or helpful, kind of mean.

I responded wit,h "If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively" to try and turn you around.

To which you said:

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Got nothing to elaborate on. I've worked on a lot of software. I don't see how doing this creates the outcomes you described in my experience. Some things are better open source, some things are irrelevant open source, some things are worse. Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

That was basically 'no'. I called you out on it with:

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Yeah, I was totally frustrated that you were purposefully being difficult in the reply you referenced. Unlike some others, you totally do get what open source is and how it's being applied here, yet instead of having a dialogue about it, you went out of your way to be unhelpful.

You did have a post after that which gave me some food for thought though.

If you are interested in having a dialogue about it, I would love to have one with you. Jalden listed his pros and cons. All I've done so far is argue intent and other stuff instead of expanding on the core principles and philosophy. I'll give my own writeup tomorrow (partially in response to that other guy I said I would respond to later as well). If your response is 'that's all crap', keep it to yourself. If you have rationale that you would like to apply, I'd love to hear it.

[Lukoyin]

Let it go. It's not wanted, needed, or going in any direction other then being hammered into the dust by the PB at large on here. Try again some time down the line if you think the response is biased from current events, but you're beating a dead horse. Further debates and write ups aren't needed. So, as you told Case - keep it to yourself.

[Maziel]

Let it go. It's not wanted, needed, or going in any direction other then being hammered into the dust by the PB at large on here. Try again some-time down the line if you think the response is biased from current events, but you're beating a dead horse. Further debates and write ups aren't needed. So, as you told Case - keep it to yourself.

I really hope that 'keep it to yourself' isn't the takeaway, but I suppose we'll see.


Further debates and write ups aren't needed. I guess I'd respond, for who? By who? There are thoughts that  still want to process and respond to. Challenges as well. In other words, there is further discussion facilitated by a need - for me. I need to make the write up.


But not tonight. I'm sleeping on this stuff first.

[Chettaman]

It's off topic, but I want to explain myself, because it does make sense to.

Firstly, me and my nephew often wrestle and fight. For fun.
I don't /usually/ put my nephews in unwanted head locks. I've only done it that one time when he showed to me that he thought everything was so hopeless and against him that he was just going to lay around and pout. Could I have just given him the laptop that was right beside him, sure. I even believe that he would of been self aware enough to realize how stupid he was being by getting upset over not being able to listen to music. - but there was also the chance that he could of ignored me. He could of just wanted to be hopeless and pouty. Which I was not going to have. Not over something as simple as wanting to listen to music.
I could of made him stand in a corner until he cooled off. This, most likely would of just made him angrier and more confused about what the hell was going on. Punishing him like a child that couldn't understand...
I could of said something like, "Listen, suckuh. (suckuh is my term of endearment) You can't always get what you want." and have him consider not listening to me. or "Hey, suckuh. Stop pouting and sit up. Here use this laptop." And have him consider not listening to me. I could of said anything, but in that moment... he could of just not listened to me and kept hopelessly pouting about not being able to listen to music.
I could have smiled at my nephew and offered him the laptop and given him the choice to understand what I meant. And he could of considered not listening to me.
--- my nephew is a teenager. Not only that, he believes he knows everything. Just like I do. What he doesn't know yet is no situation is hopeless. So I put his pouty ass in a loving headlock and offered him the chance to get out of it. Which he did, and then I put him in a bunch of other holds and then tickled him against his will and then I taught him how to escape my holds and we laughed and had a good time. And then I told him, "nothing is hopeless, suckuh. If you can't get what you want you should ask someone else. Gather ideas. Knowledge is power." and then we continued playing Left 4 Dead. And I think he came out of that situation better. Maybe I'm wrong.

I understand I can be pretty blunt, but trust me. I'm not being passive aggressive. I don't enjoy being so.

"it would boost popularity, but possibly splitting the playerbase would be counter productive to the game becoming more popular. *unless it were like an incredible increase. Alright. I'll give you that. I see where you're coming from. But I don't think the result of sharing the code will be as "profitable" as you believe.
More innovation definitely true. - but this can already be done without exposing the code. It's already being done if you ask me. It's not super-incredible fast, but it's happening and I love it.
addressing less diverse... um. I don't think of diversity when I'm playing my video games, but more diversity would be my goal if I aimed for it.
I guess less diversity in terms of role player to people who play to ''win''? I'm not sure really what you meant by less diversity."

As a human, having experienced many human things, I believe that the sharing of armageddon's code will:
allow anyone with a mind to use the code to do so. So people will do this.
-They may begin their own awesome games a part from our own:
These people will attempt to grow their own communities and have their own fun. They may even wonder where the game came from originally and come to the original armageddon to see what's happening. They may not. Depending on how the game is advertised and ran, it would attract a certain kind of player.
--- people who play based on the commonly unknown story
--- people who play based on their character's story - and maybe end up learning some of that unknown story.
    ~ solo roleplayers may be a part of this group
--- people who are just playing a game to play against other people playing a game.
--- kinky mud sexxers. Gunnerblaster's mother is one of these. (xD Just joking)
--- People who are a mix of all of these gamers.
--- there may be more. Drop me the knowledge bomb if you got more for me.

-They may simply begin a test game for code that they want to give to the original game.
--- people who want to see cool stuff implemented. Thinkers movers and producers.

-They may just use it to play privately with a small group of people.
--- I can digg this. I would freakin' /love/ an opportunity like that. I've actually been trying to make my own MUD and just recently figured out how to get "dice" rolls to work. Well... like two months ago. I've been really busy with uh... my armaddiction, my family, and trying to save the world-ish. Anyway, it's totally possible to invent new ideas and code from this too.

- they could do other things too, but I haven't thought of them. Feel free to drop more knowledge

please consider these ideals for your write up tomorrow*

[Erythil]

I suspect that the armageddon codebase would be a nightmarish clusterfuck on the order of the ARPI codebase to get running.

Futuremud never

vaporware forever 

[Lizzie]

tl;dr summary of Chettaman's recent post: He didn't mean he chokes his nephew. He means he puts his nephew in a choke-hold wrestling position, a la old-school dads giving their sons a noogie.