Should Armageddon Mud be Open Sourced?

[jalden]

[Removed by User]

[Jihelu]

In the state it is in?
Fuck no.
Sure most people might stick to the 2-3 servers but I already have trouble finding people in non 'muh major city' areas and I don't need more trouble.
Unless I can be a mul sorcerer then sign me up

[Malken]

Yeah, how about no.

[John]

I don't know of anything in the DIKU code that allows it to be released under an open source license. Furthermore the lore and the world of Armageddon is one of the key ingredients in making Armageddon as great as it is. I see no benefit in giving that away to anyone who wants to run their own private version of Armageddon.

[Maziel]

Yeah, how about no.

This is why people avoid using the gdb.

[Maziel]

I don't know of anything in the DIKU code that allows it to be released under an open source license. Furthermore the lore and the world of Armageddon is one of the key ingredients in making Armageddon as great as it is. I see no benefit in giving that away to anyone who wants to run their own private version of Armageddon.

It'd presumably be the engine and not the databases, I.e. rooms, mobs, items.

You're right about Diku, but open source is often used loosely; there are other Diku derived codebases which call themselves open source

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, sorry, don't see much of a benefit.

As I understand it, DIKU might be the source code, but Arm's its own beast after 20 years of modifications.

[Majikal]

Yeah, how about no.

This is why people avoid using the gdb.

Thread posed a question, dude gave answer. That's why you avoid using the gdb?


As to the OP:
Armageddon is the blood sweat and tears of it's staff, coders, and players. If you like it, play the game as it was created to be played by the people who put their effort into making it a game to be enjoyed. Requesting it's code is like asking to skip the 20 years of code evolution and development that went into the game and just capitalize off their work.

[John]

It'd presumably be the engine and not the databases, I.e. rooms, mobs, items:

Normally I'd expect your assumption to be true. But the point

Players could pick a server that is strict or lax on roleplay.

puzzled me.

You're right about Diku, but open source is often used loosely; there are other Diku derived codebases which call themselves open source

Fair enough.

If an interested party actually approached the Armageddon staff in good faith about using the codebase, and assuming it could be removed of all "setting specific" code (I honestly don't think that's possible) then who knows what staff would do. However I don't know of anyone whose actually approached staff in good faith. And with all of the freely available codebases out there, I don't see the benefit. Armageddon's code is by no means the best code. But we use it because it is the mostly distinctly Armageddon codebase. I don't know what purpose it would serve someone wanting to make their own MUD that had no ties to Armageddon to use code that's evolved naturally through use over time vs one that was custom built and designed to be plug and play and customisable.

[Malken]

Good luck approaching the Staff in good faith about using their codebase after they've just had it stolen from them 

[Maziel]

Yeah, how about no.

This is why people avoid using the gdb.

Thread posed a question, dude gave answer. That's why you avoid using the gdb?


As to the OP:
Armageddon is the blood sweat and tears of it's staff, coders, and players. If you like it, play the game as it was created to be played by the people who put their effort into making it a game to be enjoyed. Requesting it's code is like asking to skip the 20 years of code evolution and development that went into the game and just capitalize off their work.

That's what the yes/no option is for. The GDB gets a bad rep when it comes to unknown players putting out their feelers and giving suggestions and receiving negative feedback by elitists without receiving constructive criticism.

I think you misunderstand the suggestion. Jalden can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think it's "I want to make an Arm clone." Capitalizing off the work wouldn't be possible given that it has to include the Diku license, not to mention whatever licenses Arm staff would append. Secondly, wanting to volunteer and make something better - being a positive force in a niche group - matches a community driven game.

[Maziel]

Good luck approaching the Staff in good faith about using their codebase after they've just had it stolen from them  

The author of God Wars II had his code stolen from him at some point. Not for that game, but another. His solution was releasing a more updated version.

[picklehead]

Good luck approaching the Staff in good faith about using their codebase after they've just had it stolen from them 

It wasn't -just- stolen, it was stolen over 15 years ago by a couple guys from Israel. And it shut down the game for quite some time. Dark times. That being said, I don't see the code being offered up as open source.

[Malken]

Good luck approaching the Staff in good faith about using their codebase after they've just had it stolen from them 

The author of God Wars II had his code stolen from him at some point. Not for that game, but another. His solution was releasing it.

His solution to having his code stolen was to release it? How does that even make sense?

If all jalden wants is a barebone sort of code to make his own game from there's plenty of options already available out there, but it seems like he's wanting a clone of Armageddon, from his Pros section -

"If the code were released, we would probably see lots of servers pop up overnight" <-

But yeah, if all he wants is to have a pretty good base to create his own mud from, there's already other options out there (FutureMUD, maybe?)

[John]

The author of God Wars II had his code stolen from him at some point. Not for that game, but another. His solution was releasing a more updated version.

Does the author of Gods War II strive to create an ongoing community of gamers around his MUD that he, along with other staff, spends countless manhours (roughly 10-30 hours per staff member per week) pouring their energy into?

If the answer is no, then it's not really comparing apples to apples and is more akin to comparing apples to oranges. But apple and oranged are food, but they have very different purposes.

If people want an open source MUD codebase, I'd definitely recommend looking at something like CoffeeMUD. Many (although not all, and sometimes less and less with the amount of changes Armageddon is getting in recent times) of the core features in Armageddon are replicated in CoffeeMUD along with a whole suite of features not available in Armageddon. And it's free for anyone to download, modify and redistribute.

[Maziel]

Good luck approaching the Staff in good faith about using their codebase after they've just had it stolen from them 

The author of God Wars II had his code stolen from him at some point. Not for that game, but another. His solution was releasing it.

His solution to having his code stolen was to release it? How does that even make sense?

If all jalden wants is a barebone sort of code to make his own game from there's plenty of options already available out there, but it seems like he's wanting a clone of Armageddon, from his Pros section -

But yeah, if all he wants is to have a pretty good base to create his own mud from, there's already other options out there (FutureMUD, maybe?)

KaViR (God Wars II) is known for being brilliant on topmudsites and elsewhere. The man is amazing. That's all I'll say about how it makes sense; the why is out there if you want to know.

I've tried running a RPI before just for kicks. Nothing public. If you're willing to do everything from scratch, you have plenty of options. Evennia is a great one. Otherwise, you have one bad one. OpenRPI or whatever the newest iteration is called

[Maziel]

The author of God Wars II had his code stolen from him at some point. Not for that game, but another. His solution was releasing a more updated version.

Does the author of Gods War II strive to create an ongoing community of gamers around his MUD that he, along with other staff, spends countless manhours (roughly 10-30 hours per staff member per week) pouring their energy into?

If the answer is no, then it's not really comparing apples to apples and is more akin to comparing apples to oranges. But apple and oranged are food, but they have very different purposes.

Nearly all of this work is put into the world and storytelling elements and note the codebase itself. Nobody can steal the stories and the world that has been created. Why would anyone want to anyways?

Even if all of this time was being put in the codebase itself, I don't see that it'd change my stance though. I'm not sure if the point would be that it can't be improved anymore, isn't worthy of someone who is passionate in this scene improving it, or other.

[John]

Nearly all of this work is put into the world and storytelling elements and note the codebase itself. Nobody can steal the stories and world that has been created. Why would anyone want to anyways?

Even if all of this time was being put in the codebase itself, I don't see that it'd change my stance though. I'm not sure if the point would be that it can't be improved anymore, isn't worthy of someone who is passionate in this scene improving it, or other.

Point is: The leak of God Wars II codebase vs the leak of Armageddon's code (17 years ago?) and internal wiki are not comparable situations and so comparing the reactions to these two events does not serve to benefit the current discussion.

It'd be the same as discussing the code philosophy of Linux vs Armageddon. They are simply not comparable situations.

Unless I'm missing something really obvious here?

[Malken]

Okay, I just gave this Gods' War II code a quick glance and from what I'm reading, the guy created the game in 1995, it was stolen in 1996 and he then released the code publicly in 1996 as well.

"GodWars is a family of MUD engines derived from Merc,created in 1995 by Richard Woolcock, also known as "KaVir". GodWars' setting is influenced by White Wolf's World of Darkness.

In 1996 the code was illegally released and advertised on a website for free download. After fighting extensively to stop the illegal use of his codebase, Woolcock later released the code publicly."

KaVir: Although I was pretty angry about it at the time, the code was leaked after I'd already shut the MUD down, and I had no plans to ever reopen it. So in some ways it's nice that the MUD at least left some sort of legacy behind, rather than vanishing completely, like many other MUDs have done.

You can't possibly compare this to Armageddon's 20+ years of work? Unless I'm missing something about GodWars? It says that the guy had given up on the game and had already shut it down before it was leaked.

[Maziel]

Okay, I just gave this Gods' War II code a quick glance and from what I'm reading, the guy created the game in 1995, it was stolen in 1996 and he then released the code publicly in 1996 as well.

"GodWars is a family of MUD engines derived from Merc,created in 1995 by Richard Woolcock, also known as "KaVir". GodWars' setting is influenced by White Wolf's World of Darkness.

In 1996 the code was illegally released and advertised on a website for free download. After fighting extensively to stop the illegal use of his codebase, Woolcock later released the code publicly."

KaVir: Although I was pretty angry about it at the time, the code was leaked after I'd already shut the MUD down, and I had no plans to ever reopen it. So in some ways it's nice that the MUD at least left some sort of legacy behind, rather than vanishing completely, like many other MUDs have done.

You can't possibly compare this to Armageddon's 20+ years of work? Unless I'm missing something about GodWars? It says that the guy had given up on the game and had already shut it down before it was leaked.

I'll tell you the part of the story I know. I wonder if there were multiple incidents. Clones kept popping up from a MUD that he had. Said MUDs would not recognize that they were taking his work without giving him credit. He was pretty sure that one of his staff members was leaking it. He added in a backdoor, and then waited a few months for his update to hit others. Then he jumped in various MUDs, demanded satisfaction, and then proceeded to promote himself to immortal and demote everyone else when it wasn't given. Somewhere down the road he decided to release it because having control over a leak is better than not. I couldn't tell you who told me this, if it's complete, or where this fits in with the incident that you described.

TLDR: The comparable lesson is that the war on drugs doesn't work, and legalizing it grants government control instead of dealing with organized crime. Legal alcohol = bored mafia.  There's another comparable situation John.

[Gunnerblaster]

My answer is no, largely because - Despite wishing I could trust the community here, there are a few players who would take this opportunity to effectively dissect the code to the metagame maxing potential, all while unmonitored, to then rejoin the "main" game server and abuse the knowledge they've accumulated.

[Maziel]

My answer is no, largely because - Despite wishing I could trust the community here, there are a few players who would take this opportunity to effectively dissect the code to the metagame maxing potential, all while unmonitored, to then rejoin the "main" game server and abuse the knowledge they've accumulated.

That's a good argument.

The staff here have admitted that some of the combat mechanics are embarrassingly simple. My counter-argument is that making these mechanics known so that they could be improved - so that nobody could abuse them - would be better than obscuring an embarrassing detail on the painting (via effects or shadow/noise) so to speak. Not to mention that, with the hacked version out there, these simple mechanics are likely already known.

[John]

TLDR: The comparable lesson is that the war on drugs doesn't work, and legalizing it grants government control instead of dealing with organized crime. Legal alcohol = bored mafia.  There's another comparable situation John.

Again, not seeing them as comparable situations. 2 or 3 instances of Armageddon getting posted online over the span of 17 years isn't comparable to someone on staff continually leaking the code to several clones being hosted with active staff and active playerbases. Your obviously looking at God Wars II and Armageddon at a very high level whereas I'm drilling down to a much more detailed viewpoint. At a high level view of "These are MUDs" and "these muds had one or more clones posted online" then yes the situations are comparable. But I don't think that level of analysis isn't really helpful.

Finally, if we did want to look at the lesson that  God Wars II teaches. Couldn't we argue that the lesson taught here is that sometime after God Wars II's code was stolen, disseminated to other users and eventually released to the community at large that the creator of the codebase lost all motivation to actively develop it and instead abandoned the project? Could not the same thing happen if Armageddon's code was released to the wider community? If we're going to act as if the two situations are comparable (I don't think they are).

Here's a question: Was Armageddon Reborn's codebase ever released publicly? If yes, has anyone done anything with it?

Finally: Who wants to do something with the codebase and what do they want to do? We're talking hypotheticals here. Is anyone actually interested in starting a new MUD using the Armageddon code base? If yes, why?

[Malken]

TLDR: The comparable lesson is that the war on drugs doesn't work, and legalizing it grants government control instead of dealing with organized crime. Legal alcohol = bored mafia.  There's another comparable situation John.

I would argue that one incident in 1999 (?) and the re-surfacing of the mud's code 16 years later for a couple of days kinda shows that it seems to work, and now that it happened, Staff probably have much better ways to protect their assets.

The guy who ran the old mud's code for a couple of days suddenly took down the game, deleted his account and wasn't heard from again - It looks like running copies of Armageddon isn't the easiest or smartest hobby one could pick with their free time.

I want to hear from OP though because we don't know if he wants to have access to the game's -up to date- codebase so that he can run copies of Armageddon or simply would like a barebone codebase that is RPI friendly to start his own game with.

[Case]

No it shouldn't is my short answer.

No real reason to is my long answer.

[Malken]

Finally, if we did want to look at the lesson that  God Wars II teaches. Couldn't we argue that the lesson taught here is that sometime after God Wars II's code was stolen, disseminated to other users and eventually released to the community at large that the creator of the codebase lost all motivation to actively develop it and instead abandoned the project? Could not the same thing happen if Armageddon's code was released to the wider community? If we're going to act as if the two situations are comparable (I don't think they are).

My understanding of God Wars II is that it's the original God Wars' code that was leaked and then made public (in 1996), because the creator had already given up on it. God Wars' II codebase is certainly not public domain.

When are you planning to release the God Wars II code?

God Wars II, like God Wars before it, is designed to be a MUD rather than a public codebase. As such, we have no plans to release the source code.

Can I have a copy just to look at? I won't run it, honest! I just want to see how it works.
Sorry, but no. We're not falling for that one again.

Is God Wars II based on the original God Wars code?
God Wars II is effectively written from scratch, and uses none of the code from the original God Wars - only ideas and concepts. The only existing code we've used comes from work we've previously written ourselves, from scratch, such as some of the code from Glad2.0.

[Armaddict]

Yeah.

I fail to see any benefit whatsoever to this.

[Maziel]

TLDR: The comparable lesson is that the war on drugs doesn't work, and legalizing it grants government control instead of dealing with organized crime. Legal alcohol = bored mafia.  There's another comparable situation John.

Again, not seeing them as comparable situations. 2 or 3 instances of Armageddon getting posted online over the span of 17 years isn't comparable to someone on staff continually leaking the code to several clones being hosted with active staff and active playerbases. Your obviously looking at God Wars II and Armageddon at a very high level whereas I'm drilling down to a much more detailed viewpoint. At a high level view of "These are MUDs" and "these muds had one or more clones posted online" then yes the situations are comparable. But I don't think that level of analysis isn't really helpful.

Finally, if we did want to look at the lesson that  God Wars II teaches. Couldn't we argue that the lesson taught here is that sometime after God Wars II's code was stolen, disseminated to other users and eventually released to the community at large that the creator of the codebase lost all motivation to actively develop it and instead abandoned the project? Could not the same thing happen if Armageddon's code was released to the wider community? If we're going to act as if the two situations are comparable (I don't think they are).

Finally: Who wants to do something with the codebase and what do they want to do? We're talking hypotheticals here. Is anyone actually interested in starting a new MUD using the Armageddon code base? If yes, why?

God Wars II is still being actively worked on by KaViR. We're talking about past project(s). He released stuff in the past for control, I'm now unsure if it once was or multiple times, and then proceeded to do something greater with the security risk removed.

I'm sorry that the analysis wasn't helpful for you.

Again, the comparableness between them is control. There's at least one copy of the Arm codebase out there. Arm staff could make that obsolete if they wanted to, and append their own license requirements as well. A lot of folks are saying that it would be difficult to take legal action against Arm given that so much of the world is derived from Dark Sun - not exactly legal high ground. I don't want to get into whether that's valid or not because I have no idea. If they released an updated core engine (meaning not the world), they could add whatever licenses they want to it. As only the core engine - nothing dark sun related - is being released/licensed, there's no worry of legal high ground or whatever. The hacked version would become obsolete and it's unlikely anyone would bother trying to get the Arm database files when they can access the engine legally.  Regardless of the 'comparableness' or even accuracy, I think the general lesson is relevant.

Let me ask you a question.

Would it offend you if someone made a MUD using the Armageddon codebase in a different setting? Why or why not?

To answer yours, it would depend on whether or not the codebase is in good shape. I actually suspect that it's changed hands so many times that it's a mess that's hard to modify. If that is the case, I would not be interested in using it to start my own MUD, but I would be interested in contributing some features to enrich Armageddon. If it is in good shape, I would start a Sci-Fi themed MUD because there is not a RPI ready codebase in good shape out there. Any beneficial engine changes would be made available upstream (Arm engine).

[jalden]

[Removed by User]

[Chettaman]

I'm opposed to this idea because of the "criminal" element that may of either forced a post like this or planned a post like this.
But... I do like positive change and reaching out to people who want to do things with the code will increase the amount of possible positive change as well as how fast those changes are put up. "breaking up" the player base is a bad idea all around. I can agree having more than one group of people making reasonable changes for a common goal is beautiful, because we grow when we work together and not around each other.

While seperating meta-gamers from roleplayers seems like a good idea, I was once a meta-gamer. But only because I was like 15 and had just gotten done experiencing Halo with gunnerblaster for the first time. After hearing more bad ass stuff Gunner did and I had realized, by then, that Arm wasn't just another game. It was a roleplaying game to the truest sense. So I decided I would play a role. A merchant. A woman merchant. Just to get a feel for being someone I wasn't. ... and it worked out. I had done some really merchanty things and I had done some clueless noob things, but I learned that it wasn't about killing all the creatures! I had fun talking and making up these scenes with other people. I learned just how quickly it could all end when they introduced the animals hunt code and tarantulas.
My next favorite character was another merchant. An elf this time. An old elf. Things were different this time. He wasn't accepted by anyone but other elves or breeds, but people dealt with him regularly because I'm a badass salesman. And I had a blast not doing any combat-like stuff again. Which is surprising because I love combat.
Then I went down a row of warriors that mostly died to falls and ugh... but I had most of my fun chatting and interacting! Not skilling up, because I didn't know how it worked.
But, I understand. Some people really get their jollies off of killing lots of the NPC and PCs, and I'll agree, because that shit is exciting. Whatever the reason may be, the way you play is your own.
I /really/ don't like the idea of more than one server, but other than splitting up the playerbase I can't think of why not... We grow together, ya know...? We have more fun together. That's my only argument. against different servers.

Just like Lenux, though, when he put his operating system out there for anyone to use. People were able to make it better. Sheesh... we got regular robin hoods on the scene...

Down with the rebel scum!

I can't believe I understand how knights feel for their king now.

***
comparing linux to arm code:
It's a code and being a code it can be changed and modified to adapt any situation.
the difference in these situations is Linux wanted people to use his code for the betterment of anyone/anything able to do so.
The people who made the arm code did not want people using the code unless they were given permission to.
Respect! I'm definitely opposed to disrespecting people's ideals.

[Maziel]

But... I do like positive change and reaching out to people who want to do things with the code will increase the amount of possible positive change as well as how fast those changes are put up.

Personally, I wouldn't be willing to volunteer my time working on it without it being something reusable. I just wouldn't want my work to go to waste like that.

They probably wouldn't have me anyways though.

[Chettaman]

The idea of sharing the code is to come together as people who love this game to make it better.
Not to have your ideas put into motion.

We all throw out ideas, we all give input, we all give our arguments and together we make an agreement.
The best part is, it's a game. No one's actual life is at stake so we can just make changes if we notice things aren't working out.
And yes, we have leaders that do this communing already and they give us the ability to speak about them in the forums. We have /some/ power in what happens in the game. I think it would be neat if we could see all of the "things to come" (there probably is and I just never knew) and help out with them or whatever, but our leaders already have this set up and it is happening. Much faster these days. Progress is already being made so I can't complain about how much faster it would be if there was more than one person involved.

and I understand you said "personally". But what's the point of a ''test'' server to see how code works out if you don't make code to be tested for rejection or acceptance? Mostly Rhetorical. I apologize for the rhetoric.

[Iiyola]

No. No no no.

A big game like this needs structure. A backbone. And a brain. If you just allow everyone to tweak it it'll be the downfall of the game.

By the way, Jalden (and Maziel). Why do you suddenly pop up? Or is this a shadow account? If so, why not use your own account?

[jalden]

[Removed by User]

[Maziel]

The idea of sharing the code is to come together as people who love this game to make it better.
Not to have your ideas put into motion.

...

and I understand you said "personally". But what's the point of a ''test'' server to see how code works out if you don't make code to be tested for rejection or acceptance? Mostly Rhetorical. I apologize for the rhetoric.

Aww rhetoric haha

I think there may be something of a misunderstanding here.

1) I wouldn't have plans of putting my ideas into motion if working on the engine for Arm. They could be anybody's as long as I want to do them and there's a need.
Edit: If the engine was in good enough condition for me to make my own MUD, then changes could be added upstream if deemed valuable - or not. I would have them available to pull/merge if they want 'em while simultaneously getting updates upstream that I like (some of which would first be pulled from other branches downstream of the source).
2) Reusability didn't mean that every bit has to be used. I program with the expectation that it's going to be wrong (or not as good as it could be) and that it'll need to be changed - so I try and make it as readable and reusable as possible (making each part of the process a distinct chunk that can be referenced and still used if other bits are no longer relevant/good). What I meant is that I would rather work on something immortal. Open Source projects, or anything approximating the definition, have an immortality to them. The engine may be in bad shape at first, and nobody may end up using it anyways, but the potential would be there. The story is known and available. Putting my heart into it only to lose it is too tragic. I couldn't handle that.

I hope that makes some amount of sense.

[John]

My understanding of God Wars II is that it's the original God Wars' code that was leaked and then made public (in 1996), because the creator had already given up on it. God Wars' II codebase is certainly not public domain.

So God Wars was leaked online before or after Kavir had decided to start work on God Wars II? If after, then this is even less comparable to Armageddon.

Again, the comparableness between them is control. There's at least one copy of the Arm codebase out there. Arm staff could make that obsolete if they wanted to, and append their own license requirements as well.

Unlike in the God Wars situation where the codebase was leaked to staff of other MUDs who were actively building up a new MUD, there is no indication that anyone is trying to use the stolen Armageddon codebase to develop a new MUD. All we have had is people boot up a clone of an outdated version of Armageddon and have people create walking dildos to explore said environment. Therefore I would argue there is no actual evidence that anyone has any interest in creating a brand new MUD, unconnected to Armageddon but using the Armageddon codebase.

A lot of folks are saying that it would be difficult to take legal action against Arm

I would hardly constitute however many regular posters jcarter has managed to amass as "a lot of folks" but, this has no bearing on the conversation at hand really. The fact Kavir built his own codebase (AFAIK, anyone want to correct me on this?) did not stop Kavir from failing to take legal action in the courts. I don't know very many people in the MUD community who have the ability to take someone on the internet to court and then actually get the judgement awarded to them.

If they released an updated core engine (meaning not the world), they could add whatever licenses they want to it.

If the staff want to take the time and effort to do this then I would support them in that endeavour. However I am of the opinion this would do nothing to dissaude the people who feel it's acceptable to load up an outdated Arm clone for people to go play in as I do not think it is Armageddon's code that draws those people's interest.

Would it offend you if someone made a MUD using the Armageddon codebase in a different setting? Why or why not?

No. Armageddon staff are free to allow people to do whatever they want with the code (within the confines of the original DIKU license).

To answer yours, it would depend on whether or not the codebase is in good shape. I actually suspect that it's changed hands so many times that it's a mess that's hard to modify.

Exactly (although I think the code is likely in a much better state then it was a few months ago. Looks like Arm staff are really taking the time to go through the code and give it a really good house cleaning which seems to be accelerating the deployment of new features which is great to see). I'm sure it would take much more effort from the Arm staff to get it into a state where others would be able to easily use it.

I would be interested in contributing some features to enrich Armageddon.

THen you should definitely get in touch with the Armageddon staff. I believe they've discussed before the issues with bringing on new coders isn't as simple as someone saying "I want to help" and then having them throw new coede into the MUD. However I can't find the exact posts I'm thinking of. So if you are interested in contributing to the code, I'd definitely recommend asking staff about it. And once you do start working with the code you could then potentially approach staff at some point in the future about using it for your own MUD ideas.

[Maziel]

I feel like the god wars thing is becoming something of a syntax argument. Not literally, but...

I'm out man 

There was only one flying dildo that I'm aware of 

Good points.

[John]

I feel like the god wars thing is becoming something of a syntax argument.

Sorry I either kept missing what you were saying or not articulating my point better.

[Chettaman]

to maziel: Yes that makes sense to me.

I'm opposed to this idea because of the "criminal" element that may of either forced a post like this or planned a post like this.

Do you mean my post? If so rude .

comparing linux to arm code:
It's a code and being a code it can be changed and modified to adapt any situation.
the difference in these situations is Linux wanted people to use his code for the betterment of anyone/anything able to do so.
The people who made the arm code did not want people using the code unless they were given permission to.
Respect! I'm definitely opposed to disrespecting people's ideals.

Yep if the people who created the game don't want it to be shared that should be their call.

Yes rude, but reasonable. This is the kind of attitude I have in a discussion like this. Because in a sense this is very serious. And in another sense, this is just a game. As an uncle, I choke my nephew when he starts being ungrateful and pouty for no reason. Excessive? I think so. But my skills involve breaking things and being cool-headed enough to see and learn truth. Not talking. But I have to do something, because in those moments I'm the one responsible for how he'll grow up. So I use what I'm good at constructively - anyway.
Believe me when I say that I'm not comparing you to an ungrateful, pouty thirteen year old. I'm only stating that there are certain ways to make people see reason and I'm very blunt. If my nephew wants to listen to music and he feels like he's exhausted all of his options without consulting someone he didn't think to involve then I can gladly say he was wrong in his pouting and hopelessness. After putting him in a headlock, I taught him some more fighting stuff and then let him use the god damn lap top that was sitting beside him to listen to music. I don't want anyone that I can be responsible for to get upset over something like not being able to listen to music. - and if it is reasonable to get upset I showed him how to alleviate his suffering by telling him he could of just asked for help. He was listening after I put him in the one-eyed chicken wing.
In the sense of this discussion, I'm not responsible for you or anyone here... but I'm big headed enough to say that I /could/ try to be. Because that's how we grow as a society. Together. You help me see your point and I help you see my point and we produce the best thing together.

I'm not being rude for no reason. I'm not going to sugar coat anything. I'm going to be direct. And I'm going to tell you the truth if I know it, and I think that I do, because I like to believe I'm incredibly impartial.
It is reasonable for me to believe it may of been you. It is reasonable for me to believe it could of been Maziel. It is reasonable for me to understand that it doesn't matter who it was.
It's happened. I'm getting over it. Let me adapt. This whole issue is a big deal. But me not thinking passed how to discipline this possible criminal element is only going to hurt me and since my posts will be read by others it will affect them. The one thing that hasn't changed is the fact that I love Armageddon and even from this we can grow. Maybe not directly, or around or with or against, in no way specific, but we can. We can grow.

I would like a staffer to come in and say something like this:
"Everything's fine. We're still rolling on despite the leak. Just keep having fun.
This is what's happening. This is how we're handling it. We're still a steam roller, baby. Just rollin' down the line."
- Only for this situation at least, until everything has calmed down. Because this is a situation involving everyone who loves Armageddon and its community - even after/during or possibly before bad experiences.

In my college class last week: My teacher never showed up, but we all still had to do the work. So... we decided that we would find all the answers on a web page. Someone would type them all out and print them. Me, being me warned everyone about the possibilities of such a terrible plan, but if you knew me you'd know I didn't really care either way. So... that's what we did and we turned them into the guy in charge. The new dean or whatever, the whole time he was asking us if we had plagiarized and /everyone/ else was pretending like every packet turned in didn't look exactly the same. They were pretending that we didn't just get all the answers off of the internet. And all I could do was smirk.
so...
last night my teacher is back and he tells us exactly what happened. He's a pretty cool guy and he doesn't care that we did it either, BUT he is concerned if we actually learned anything. - at any rate, he tells us that he brought the papers to the dean after noticing they were all exactly the same. And the dean (we shall call him the man from now on) said, "Well what're you gonna do about it?"
BAM - the man has set us up. Us being the teacher and the class. He has set up the teacher against us.
So... when the teacher confronts us and tells us this and warns us very subtly (it was even funny to him) about what may happen and how we as a group will mediate the situation, the people in the class don't seem to follow and they even get angry. At first, I thought they were just playing along, but it was clear after a few minutes that they were actually angry. BAM - the man has set us against the teacher. ... and then the man comes into the class room to review his peer.
Oh... there's hostility. Our teacher understands that we don't understand, though... so he has considered the words of his next speech and his actions as well very carefully. I can tell. He tells us again how things are going to be mediated and this time he ends the discussion without any niceties. The man, after some watching and listening to the silence criticizes one unruly student about something that has nothing to do with the situation or even the class we're in currently - they have some passive aggressive words and the man leaves.

throughout the rest of the night, my class criticized and made passive aggressive statements about how the teacher handled this situation. Even if we/they were the reason the situation even existed. Even if our teacher's job may have been at stake because of something we shouldn't have done. So after only a few passive aggressive statements from them, I stood out and apologized to our teacher. The other students cut the passive aggressive BS, but they were still upset. People left early and the people who stayed were being moody. The teacher too, was being moody, but reasonably so. He had given us a chance to work with him against the man and beat him at his own game - but no. We ate right out of the man's hand and created a hostile situation.

I'm wise enough to understand the consequences of my actions. I'm brave/humble enough to admit when I'm wrong. I'm brave/humble/wise enough to admit when I'm right!
This isn't about winning to me. It isn't about losing to me. I want the best of the best.
So I'll say it in my kind, blunt way. Don't respond to the people of the GDB who have opposing ideas about the GDB and armageddon as if you're better than us. If you want to make us better, I appreciate it and welcome it. Please attempt to stop your passive aggressiveness and make your points with the knowledge that this community is, for the most part, angry about what happened and that have to grow from it anyway. Positive growth is preferred.
And that goes for the GDB too. No passive aggressiveness, please. Make your points with the knowledge that we have to grow anyway. Positive growth is preferred.

also I've come to a decision. I don't think Arm should be open sourced.
I would like to encourage staff to reach out to trustworthy people to grow, however. (they're growing like crazy - so I really have no argument)
I would suggest people who aren't involved with the game, but having people who know nothing about the thing they're working on could affect the outcome...
Shit, I don't know /how/ you choose trust worthy people. Keep doing it, though. You're doing a great job these days. I'm proud of you for one.

[jalden]

[Removed by User]

[evilcabbage]

i drew from his whole thing that we've all been set up (or some of us) and are being laughed at.

but yes. choking your nephew is definitely abuse. you need to not do that, please, for your own sake.


this is literally the worst time to ask about open-sourcing the mud. let's be fair, we don't know if some jaded dick handed over a password that worked, or if there was an sql injection.

what we do know is stuff was posted and, whether certain people want to interpret it that way or not, for 30 or so minutes doxxing occurred.

in light of this, asking about open-sourcing a mud where the life of a lot of people has been sunk into it, to craft their baby into a lovely thing that's full of anger and rage and blood and death and tears and joy, probably is a bit presumptuous.


what they did was wrong. we all get it. it was wrong on a few levels. we get it.


at this point, we need to just stop talking about it. it's over with. it happened, it won't (hopefully) happen again, and now we need to just move on and stop rabble-rousing about this.


again, no, the mud should not be open sourced.

thank you for your time.

[Eurynomos]

Locked. Advertising for another MUD on the GDB is against the rules of the GDB.

[Adhira]

I have unlocked this thread.

I would like to remind everyone of our rules of no flaming or trolling. This includes people that are not here on these boards or posting on this thread. Please keep it civil or this thread will be locked again.

[jalden]

[Removed by User]

[BadSkeelz]

The Arm codebase may look really nice up front on the player side, but it's my understanding that it's something of a nightmare to work with and update on the back end. That alone is a huge blocker to the idea that releasing it would be a good idea.

If you want to have other muds with the same content and themes of Armageddon, you'd probably be better off building them with more modern, flexible code bases.

[Case]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

[Dan]

This should not even be a discussion. How incredibly selfish to want to open the source and pull people away from the game. Respect the boundaries and play by the rules, my fun and everyone else who agrees on the foundational principles of the game depends upon that. Absolutely not.

[Maziel]

This should not even be a discussion. How incredibly selfish to want to open the source and pull people away from the game. Respect the boundaries and play by the rules, my fun and everyone else who agrees on the foundational principles of the game depends upon that. Absolutely not.

You're projecting here. I do not think wanting to volunteer your time to something you love is selfish. This is, after all, a community driven game (edit: and scene in general). That includes both players and staff.

[Maziel]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

[Chettaman]

it would boost popularity, but possibly splitting the playerbase would be counter productive to the game becoming more popular. *unless it were like an incredible increase. Alright. I'll give you that. I see where you're coming from. But I don't think the result of sharing the code will be as "profitable" as you believe.
More innovation definitely true. - but this can already be done without exposing the code. It's already being done if you ask me. It's not super-incredible fast, but it's happening and I love it.
addressing less diverse... um. I don't think of diversity when I'm playing my video games, but more diversity would be my goal if I aimed for it.
I guess less diversity in terms of role player to people who play to ''win''? I'm not sure really what you meant by less diversity.

[Lizzie]

Considering the vast number of polls we've had on the GDB in the past, I'd say this one resulted in a really REALLY REALLY REALLY clear indication, at an extremely short period of time, that the answer to the OP's question is - categorically, undoubtedly, specifically, concisely, and most definitely,

No.

Considering the sheer magnitude of no-ness to the answer to this question, it really doesn't matter why the answer is no at this point. My reason: Because it feels wrong. Here's me, elaborating on it: "Because I think it feels wrong, to me."

[Maziel]

Considering the vast number of polls we've had on the GDB in the past, I'd say this one resulted in a really REALLY REALLY REALLY clear indication, at an extremely short period of time, that the answer to the OP's question is - categorically, undoubtedly, specifically, concisely, and most definitely,

No.

Considering the sheer magnitude of no-ness to the answer to this question, it really doesn't matter why the answer is no at this point. My reason: Because it feels wrong. Here's me, elaborating on it: "Because I think it feels wrong, to me."

Eh. It's Indicative that the players that frequent the gdb think so. Even that is a bit misleading given that I think one has to be signed in to vote. To me, it indicates that this demographic strongly objects to the idea. Timing is involved as well - the surprising amount of rejections which grossly misunderstood the intent is likely tied to this. If that's representative of the poll, then there's a large % of voters that were voting on something else.

[Chettaman]

I don't believe I have any misconceptions about the poll question. And timing didn't affect my decision either.
What do you think about my counter arguments?

[Maziel]

I don't believe I have any misconceptions about the poll question. And timing didn't affect my decision either.
What do you think about my counter arguments?

I'd say it's contrary to what you've said previously. Criminal element, etc etc

[Case]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Got nothing to elaborate on. I've worked on a lot of software. I don't see how doing this creates the outcomes you described in my experience. Some things are better open source, some things are irrelevant open source, some things are worse. Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

[Chettaman]

Criminals can be productive. I can admit that. Sometimes people have to do terrible things to be productive.

This one was the last post on the previous page.
"it would boost popularity, but possibly splitting the playerbase would be counter productive to the game becoming more popular. *unless it were like an incredible increase. Alright. I'll give you that. I see where you're coming from. But I don't think the result of sharing the code will be as "profitable" as you believe.
More innovation definitely true. - but this can already be done without exposing the code. It's already being done if you ask me. It's not super-incredible fast, but it's happening and I love it.
addressing less diverse... um. I don't think of diversity when I'm playing my video games, but more diversity would be my goal if I aimed for it.
I guess less diversity in terms of role player to people who play to ''win''? I'm not sure really what you meant by less diversity."

[Maziel]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

[Case]

What's most likely to happen is somebody with a community college class of Java under their belt gets the C code and futzes about trying to set up another of a server to try run it, with endless issues with file locations and database schemas. They get it working, hack in an admin account, log in... empty. Make a few admin rooms with no description. A zone or two in advance. Grab some buddies to come join in make a sweet game based on some post apocalyptic japan comic series, build a table, maybe a set of the best armor ever and a weapon, then try play without much in the way of a world, backstory or any kind of game culture. Try drum up some players, maybe do a wiki up with mostly stubbed but for the good interesting race choices and the one guild that works mostly ok, do some superficial changes to the stat system or something, edit a few spells, try slap together a basic village, try and watch in frustration as all the Armageddon hardcode fucks up AI and references weird things and players don't really have any direction.

There'll be a give up point somewhere.

What could happen is an organised individual busts their ass and learns the right skills to make a game and drives a creative vision, but it's so so rare in Muds. It sucks. I know I've tried and failed a couple of times. I don't even have to learn the skills and it still sucks.


Either way, it won't benefit armageddon.

[Maziel]

Criminals can be productive. I can admit that. Sometimes people have to do terrible things to be productive.

You're making me sad. That's really quite upsetting. It reaffirms my previous sentiment though. I think I'm done here.

[Case]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

[Chettaman]

Well, I'm not calling you a criminal. I'm saying that criminals can be productive.
For example; Nobunaga Oda. The person who began uniting japan out of its fudal era by going to war with literally the entire country. While the people didn't enjoy being taken over - his dream of uniting japan under one banner was a success. There was still fighting and all this and that, but look at it now. Japan doesn't seem that bad, but I've never been. I can only assume.

Please be reasonable. I'm only trying to gain knowledge, because maybe I'm wrong in my thinking.

[Maziel]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

I have programming experience as well. A case worth discussing is as simple as ' there are good and bad candidates for open sourcing. Good candidates are usually community driven. Arm is community driven. Discuss.' We have, in fact, gone well beyond that. Don't pin your attitude problem on me.

[Armaddict]

If you really want to contribute code to the game, ask to do so.  But there's no reason to disseminate the code out to more people because they weren't making an Armageddon codebase when they modified it this much.  They were making a MUD, and they want to keep it as theirs, or they would have likely already released said code.

[Maziel]

If you really want to contribute code to the game, ask to do so.  But there's no reason to disseminate the code out to more people because they weren't making an Armageddon codebase when they modified it this much.  They were making a MUD, and they want to keep it as theirs, or they would have likely already released said code.

Good points. I'm taking a break, but I'll give a write up tomorrow with some follow up thoughts.

[Case]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

I have programming experience as well. A case worth discussing is as simple as ' there are good and bad candidates for open sourcing. Good candidates are usually community driven. Arm is community driven. Discuss.' We have, in fact, gone well beyond that. Don't pin your attitude problem on me.

I thought you'd stopped posting from all the crippling disappointment?

I'm not convinced by anything posted so far. I don't have to say why.

I have also offered to contribute (and been accepted).

[Maziel]

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Not my fault your case sucks. You're trying to convince us, not the other way around.

I have programming experience as well. A case worth discussing is as simple as ' there are good and bad candidates for open sourcing. Good candidates are usually community driven. Arm is community driven. Discuss.' We have, in fact, gone well beyond that. Don't pin your attitude problem on me.

I thought you'd stopped posting from all the crippling disappointment?

I'm not convinced by anything posted so far. I don't have to say why.

I have also offered to contribute (and been accepted).

Crippling disappointment wasn't it. I was specifically responding to the back and forths Chettaman; I don't have anything to say there anymore.

No you don't. You don't have to be nice either, but it'd be appreciated. Jalden is saying we should just play a different game because there's too much negativity in the gdb.

[Lizzie]

The OP made a poll. In less than a day, over 50 people responded to it. That's more than most polls on this forum get in a week. That's how much interest it received. That's a lot, in a very short period of time. People also responded by posting their reasons why not. You posted why you liked the idea, but many people posted why it wasn't a good idea. You argued with them, to counter their reasoning. You challenged their opinion, they stuck with it. You kept on about it- they weren't interested in changing their minds. But that wasn't enough for you, you kept pushing. And pushing. And pushing. And eventually some of us felt that you needed to just - stop pushing. So we pushed back. And you didn't get the hint. Those of us who disagreed before you posted your reasons why it's a good idea, still think it's not a good idea. You haven't convinced any of us otherwise, and reiterating the same reasoning over and over again isn't likely to do anything other than make some of us grumpy.

If that makes you sad, well - sorry. But you continually pushing for something that no one wants is making a lot of people grumpy.

[Maziel]

The OP made a poll. In less than a day, over 50 people responded to it. That's more than most polls on this forum get in a week. That's how much interest it received. That's a lot, in a very short period of time. People also responded by posting their reasons why not. You posted why you liked the idea, but many people posted why it wasn't a good idea. You argued with them, to counter their reasoning. You challenged their opinion, they stuck with it. You kept on about it- they weren't interested in changing their minds. But that wasn't enough for you, you kept pushing. And pushing. And pushing. And eventually some of us felt that you needed to just - stop pushing. So we pushed back. And you didn't get the hint. Those of us who disagreed before you posted your reasons why it's a good idea, still think it's not a good idea. You haven't convinced any of us otherwise, and reiterating the same reasoning over and over again isn't likely to do anything other than make some of us grumpy.

If that makes you sad, well - sorry. But you continually pushing for something that no one wants is making a lot of people grumpy.

Again, the sad bit was for the constant criminal comparisons.  Also the nephew choking. I just can't follow anymore on that line and stay level headed. The negativity wasn't from the poll results. There have been some good discussions here. Others have gone far out of their way to do worse than not contributing at all.

Pushing really isn't fair. I've been far more on the defense than I'd like if anything.

[Case]

Crippling disappointment wasn't it. I was specifically responding to the back and forths Chettaman; I don't have anything to say there anymore.

No you don't. You don't have to be nice either, but it'd be appreciated. Jalden is saying we should just play a different game because there's too much negativity in the gdb.

I'm perfectly capable of being nice. I was being nice originally. Direct, but not mean. It's only when you saw fit to say I have nothing to contribute that I got mean.

I see no purpose for this. At all. It makes no sense. It solves no known problems. It's just a want you have. It doesn't benefit Arm itself. If they want coders, they'll take coders.

[Maziel]

Crippling disappointment wasn't it. I was specifically responding to the back and forths Chettaman; I don't have anything to say there anymore.

No you don't. You don't have to be nice either, but it'd be appreciated. Jalden is saying we should just play a different game because there's too much negativity in the gdb.

I'm perfectly capable of being nice. I was being nice originally. Direct, but not mean. It's only when you saw fit to say I have nothing to contribute that I got mean.

Okay let's take a look.

No it shouldn't is my short answer.

No real reason to is my long answer.

That was fine. Nobody responded.

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

Not constructive or helpful, kind of mean.

I responded wit,h "If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively" to try and turn you around.

To which you said:

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Got nothing to elaborate on. I've worked on a lot of software. I don't see how doing this creates the outcomes you described in my experience. Some things are better open source, some things are irrelevant open source, some things are worse. Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

That was basically 'no'. I called you out on it with:

Thank you Adhira. It probably should have been worded differently, and this may not have been the right time. But the poll question was genuine. It looks like the playerbase overwhelmingly does not think that the game should be shared. I disagree and think that we would see a boost in popularity, more innovation, and a less divisive community if the game were treated as an open source community project. But there would be downsides as well.

Yeah ok cool

I mean I totally disagree on any of those pros but it sure sounds nice

If you elaborate, I'll do my best to respond constructively

Up to you and the swirly avatar guy tag team to make a case that has more thought behind it than "oh yeah it'll do this" and "god wars 2".

In other words you've got nothing constructive to say or contribute that I can work with. Got it.

Yeah, I was totally frustrated that you were purposefully being difficult in the reply you referenced. Unlike some others, you totally do get what open source is and how it's being applied here, yet instead of having a dialogue about it, you went out of your way to be unhelpful.

You did have a post after that which gave me some food for thought though.

If you are interested in having a dialogue about it, I would love to have one with you. Jalden listed his pros and cons. All I've done so far is argue intent and other stuff instead of expanding on the core principles and philosophy. I'll give my own writeup tomorrow (partially in response to that other guy I said I would respond to later as well). If your response is 'that's all crap', keep it to yourself. If you have rationale that you would like to apply, I'd love to hear it.

[Lukoyin]

Let it go. It's not wanted, needed, or going in any direction other then being hammered into the dust by the PB at large on here. Try again some time down the line if you think the response is biased from current events, but you're beating a dead horse. Further debates and write ups aren't needed. So, as you told Case - keep it to yourself.

[Maziel]

Let it go. It's not wanted, needed, or going in any direction other then being hammered into the dust by the PB at large on here. Try again some-time down the line if you think the response is biased from current events, but you're beating a dead horse. Further debates and write ups aren't needed. So, as you told Case - keep it to yourself.

I really hope that 'keep it to yourself' isn't the takeaway, but I suppose we'll see.


Further debates and write ups aren't needed. I guess I'd respond, for who? By who? There are thoughts that  still want to process and respond to. Challenges as well. In other words, there is further discussion facilitated by a need - for me. I need to make the write up.


But not tonight. I'm sleeping on this stuff first.

[Chettaman]

It's off topic, but I want to explain myself, because it does make sense to.

Firstly, me and my nephew often wrestle and fight. For fun.
I don't /usually/ put my nephews in unwanted head locks. I've only done it that one time when he showed to me that he thought everything was so hopeless and against him that he was just going to lay around and pout. Could I have just given him the laptop that was right beside him, sure. I even believe that he would of been self aware enough to realize how stupid he was being by getting upset over not being able to listen to music. - but there was also the chance that he could of ignored me. He could of just wanted to be hopeless and pouty. Which I was not going to have. Not over something as simple as wanting to listen to music.
I could of made him stand in a corner until he cooled off. This, most likely would of just made him angrier and more confused about what the hell was going on. Punishing him like a child that couldn't understand...
I could of said something like, "Listen, suckuh. (suckuh is my term of endearment) You can't always get what you want." and have him consider not listening to me. or "Hey, suckuh. Stop pouting and sit up. Here use this laptop." And have him consider not listening to me. I could of said anything, but in that moment... he could of just not listened to me and kept hopelessly pouting about not being able to listen to music.
I could have smiled at my nephew and offered him the laptop and given him the choice to understand what I meant. And he could of considered not listening to me.
--- my nephew is a teenager. Not only that, he believes he knows everything. Just like I do. What he doesn't know yet is no situation is hopeless. So I put his pouty ass in a loving headlock and offered him the chance to get out of it. Which he did, and then I put him in a bunch of other holds and then tickled him against his will and then I taught him how to escape my holds and we laughed and had a good time. And then I told him, "nothing is hopeless, suckuh. If you can't get what you want you should ask someone else. Gather ideas. Knowledge is power." and then we continued playing Left 4 Dead. And I think he came out of that situation better. Maybe I'm wrong.

I understand I can be pretty blunt, but trust me. I'm not being passive aggressive. I don't enjoy being so.

"it would boost popularity, but possibly splitting the playerbase would be counter productive to the game becoming more popular. *unless it were like an incredible increase. Alright. I'll give you that. I see where you're coming from. But I don't think the result of sharing the code will be as "profitable" as you believe.
More innovation definitely true. - but this can already be done without exposing the code. It's already being done if you ask me. It's not super-incredible fast, but it's happening and I love it.
addressing less diverse... um. I don't think of diversity when I'm playing my video games, but more diversity would be my goal if I aimed for it.
I guess less diversity in terms of role player to people who play to ''win''? I'm not sure really what you meant by less diversity."

As a human, having experienced many human things, I believe that the sharing of armageddon's code will:
allow anyone with a mind to use the code to do so. So people will do this.
-They may begin their own awesome games a part from our own:
These people will attempt to grow their own communities and have their own fun. They may even wonder where the game came from originally and come to the original armageddon to see what's happening. They may not. Depending on how the game is advertised and ran, it would attract a certain kind of player.
--- people who play based on the commonly unknown story
--- people who play based on their character's story - and maybe end up learning some of that unknown story.
    ~ solo roleplayers may be a part of this group
--- people who are just playing a game to play against other people playing a game.
--- kinky mud sexxers. Gunnerblaster's mother is one of these. (xD Just joking)
--- People who are a mix of all of these gamers.
--- there may be more. Drop me the knowledge bomb if you got more for me.

-They may simply begin a test game for code that they want to give to the original game.
--- people who want to see cool stuff implemented. Thinkers movers and producers.

-They may just use it to play privately with a small group of people.
--- I can digg this. I would freakin' /love/ an opportunity like that. I've actually been trying to make my own MUD and just recently figured out how to get "dice" rolls to work. Well... like two months ago. I've been really busy with uh... my armaddiction, my family, and trying to save the world-ish. Anyway, it's totally possible to invent new ideas and code from this too.

- they could do other things too, but I haven't thought of them. Feel free to drop more knowledge

please consider these ideals for your write up tomorrow*

[Erythil]

I suspect that the armageddon codebase would be a nightmarish clusterfuck on the order of the ARPI codebase to get running.

Futuremud never

vaporware forever 

[Lizzie]

tl;dr summary of Chettaman's recent post: He didn't mean he chokes his nephew. He means he puts his nephew in a choke-hold wrestling position, a la old-school dads giving their sons a noogie.

[Malifaxis]

I have thought long and hard about  how I would vote in this particular pole.   I just don't know if there is a selection that is right for me.

Would you kindly add a "Eat a bag of dicks" option please?

"No" just doesn't cover it for me.

[Delirium]

[Malifaxis]

Taking my own advice and just walking away...

[James de Monet]

Wow.  Okay.  Apparently people feel strongly about this.

I voted "no".  My initial thought was of the database access, though, which was later said to not be in the intent of the OP.  I still don't think releasing the code is a good idea.  It would still expose code features and mechanics that are probably better left unseen.  Would I like a copy of the code?  Of course.  I'd tinker with it, see what made it work, see if there were issues I thought I could fix, bring up my own server to go send a few poorly written PCs of my own to die in interesting ways.  And then, like some have said, I would forget about it, and move on to other things.  The net gain wouldn't be much for the MUD (if anything), and they would have spent a lot of time releasing it.

I also think the question could have been better worded.  "Should" is a loaded word. It implies some moral imperative, which the staff are by no means under.  The code, after all, is their work.  They don't owe it to anybody to release it.  "Would you like" would have been far preferable.

All that being said, though, no one is forcing you guys to respond to this.  There's no point in shouting Maziel down just because you don't like his opinion.  Let him talk.  Respond if you want.  But don't tell him to shut up as if the thirsty maws of justice can only be slaked in this by forcing him to retract an unpopular opinion.

[Maziel]

Wow.  Okay.  Apparently people feel strongly about this.

I voted "no".  My initial thought was of the database access, though, which was later said to not be in the intent of the OP.  I still don't think releasing the code is a good idea.  It would still expose code features and mechanics that are probably better left unseen.  Would I like a copy of the code?  Of course.  I'd tinker with it, see what made it work, see if there were issues I thought I could fix, bring up my own server to go send a few poorly written PCs of my own to die in interesting ways.  And then, like some have said, I would forget about it, and move on to other things.  The net gain wouldn't be much for the MUD (if anything), and they would have spent a lot of time releasing it.

I also think the question could have been better worded.  "Should" is a loaded word. It implies some moral imperative, which the staff are by no means under.  The code, after all, is their work.  They don't owe it to anybody to release it.  "Would you like" would have been far preferable.

All that being said, though, no one is forcing you guys to respond to this.  There's no point in shouting Maziel down just because you don't like his opinion.  Let him talk.  Respond if you want.  But don't tell him to shut up as if the thirsty maws of justice can only be slaked in this by forcing him to retract an unpopular opinion.

Thanks, that's really a refreshing change that's really appreciated.

I'm being told that I should probably do some things I've been putting off like requesting college transcripts before doing the write up I mentioned doing today 

I'll be back for it when I can get away with procrastinating something else by doing the write up instead.

Also, sorry for the mistake Chettaman. I'll consider your thoughts.

[LauraMars]

I haven't seen the playerbase in this much agreement since the Look Echo for Hemote 2016 thread.