Extended Subguilds and suggested change or new additions

[shadeoux]

I would like to propose a new or change to current Extended Subguilds since we are shaking things up.
The subguilds like Lancer, where you get a specific weapon type and you are able to run with it to near
warrior levels, I would like to propose that said subguilds can obtain mastery of the slashing weapons and
is so dominant eventually they will pick up the advanced weapon branched from it? Maybe not able to get
the advanced weapon past journeyman, or lower caps, but this was just a thought.

As a secondary rebuttal to the ney sayers, they would be so focused on the weapons they wouldn't get kick, wouldn't get bash but would get parry and disarm to current levels.

[Narf]

I would like to propose a new or change to current Extended Subguilds since we are shaking things up.
The subguilds like Lancer, where you get a specific weapon type and you are able to run with it to near
warrior levels, I would like to propose that said subguilds can obtain mastery of the slashing weapons and
is so dominant eventually they will pick up the advanced weapon branched from it? Maybe not able to get
the advanced weapon past journeyman, or lower caps, but this was just a thought.

As a secondary rebuttal to the ney sayers, they would be so focused on the weapons they wouldn't get kick, wouldn't get bash but would get parry and disarm to current levels.

What's your argument? How does this make the game better?

[RogueGunslinger]

Because maybe then seeing someone with an advanced weapon doesn't immediately give them away as a warrior?

Not every idea needs to have an argument attached to it.

[Narf]

Not every idea needs to have an argument attached to it.

This concept is philosophical heresy to me.

While I go get some pitchforks and torches though, why would you put time and effort into an idea without having a clear concept as to why you're doing it?

[RogueGunslinger]

I didn't say "not every idea has to have a reason behind it".

Just because someone has a reason, doesn't mean that that specific reason is the only reason, and that it has to be shared. For instance, not sharing his reasons allowed me to come up with my own, expanding discussion instead of railroading it down a narrow path. I would encourage you to look for your own reasons as to why it could be a good/bad idea. And then post those.

[Majikal]

I think I've talked about this before but I don't know if I actually put it on the boards, I always hated the advanced weapon skills. I use hammer of destruction all my life and suddenly I'm one of the few in the game that can use a pike. I use weapon X and now I can be a knife fighter. In my personal taste, the main four weapon skills are hella cooler and more fitting to the setting than the advanced weapon skills.

I think an all-encompassing exotic weapons skill would be more interesting. Tridents, whips, polearms, knives and whatever weird invention of a weapon the players can come up with under one big umbrella that shows a prowess with combat and let's players choose the weaponry that fits the image they envision for their character. The woe I felt when I made a southern warrior who fought per the docs dual wielding and eventually branched a weapon skill that was only two-handed. I was soooo disappointed, and by then I was so skilled at combat the thought of raising a second weapon skill in order to obtain an advanced weapon skill that allowed dual wielding was near-impossible.

However, that's off topic...
I rather like the idea of the extended subguilds offering a very minor specialization in advanced weapons (not a sub I would use personally), but the idea definitely has some appeal.

Pros:
-Advanced weapons means more mastercrafts
-Advanced weapon skills mean more interaction with GMH
-Definitely adds more interest to the extended subguild, balancing the GCP cost.
-Would mean someone making a warrior/lancer for instance would branch their advanced weapons skill earlier (based on the subguilds earlier branch #) and would demonstrate a warriors focus on a particular fighting style.

Cons:
-Would mean a pickpocket/lancer would branch an advanced weapon skill quicker than a warrior, which is kind of silly.
-Might unbalance a warriors combat prowess considering the bonuses advanced weapon skills entail.

[Dresan]

I really really like majikal's idea.

[Miradus]

I don't understand the concept behind an "advanced" weapon skill.

Based on these conversations, I'm thinking that it's either vastly superior to a base weapon skill, or factors into combat in some other way?

Otherwise what's the problem with giving one to a subguild? A subguild is a pretty significant choice that you only get once. If you invest in it then ought there to be some benefit?

[Jihelu]

I don't understand the concept behind an "advanced" weapon skill.

Based on these conversations, I'm thinking that it's either vastly superior to a base weapon skill, or factors into combat in some other way?

Otherwise what's the problem with giving one to a subguild? A subguild is a pretty significant choice that you only get once. If you invest in it then ought there to be some benefit?

The idea is that warriors should be the only ones to get them because.
Reasons I guess.

[JackGibbons]

I don't understand the concept behind an "advanced" weapon skill.

Based on these conversations, I'm thinking that it's either vastly superior to a base weapon skill, or factors into combat in some other way?

Otherwise what's the problem with giving one to a subguild? A subguild is a pretty significant choice that you only get once. If you invest in it then ought there to be some benefit?

There is mechanics reason why they are better but I'm not sure if it's within the GDB rules to say.

[Riev]

Eff the rules.

Advanced weapon skills are skills that nearly nobody else in game has.

Think like... if you're a master of slashing weapons, and you've 'unlocked' how to use a katana, which "slices" people. NOBODY knows what to do against a katana, most people have never seen it before. Most people have seen swordfights and might understand the basics of a sword fight. But if someone comes in and starts slicing up with a katana, they're at a decent advantage (so long as they know how to use it)

The issue, as it stands, and people "unlock" katanas, but they don't get an advantage of really knowing how to use one, because it starts off at a low-value like every other skill.

[Jihelu]

Also katanas might have the ability to "Parry" really good or something.

[Miradus]

So if I'm a swordsman and I go up against another swordsman then we're going to have an epic fight. But if I go up against a guy with a club and I don't know anything about clubs, I'm going to suffer a concussion. I think I get what you're saying.

I can see a lot of OOC reasons why warriors might not want those skills spread around then, but no real good game ones. After all, a pickpocket is the master of steal but others do learn the basics of stealing.

Also, several subguilds offer master crafting options where as previously only the merchant guild can master crafts.

So it seems that bridge has been crossed already in everything but combat.

[Jihelu]

The benefit of advanced weapons is most people don't know them.
But yeah for bludgeoning people might know it, a good portion of people usually train it up.
Not everyone trains up, say, tridents.

[John]

Eff the rules.

Advanced weapon skills are skills that nearly nobody else in game has.

Think like... if you're a master of slashing weapons, and you've 'unlocked' how to use a katana, which "slices" people. NOBODY knows what to do against a katana, most people have never seen it before. Most people have seen swordfights and might understand the basics of a sword fight. But if someone comes in and starts slicing up with a katana, they're at a decent advantage (so long as they know how to use it)

The issue, as it stands, and people "unlock" katanas, but they don't get an advantage of really knowing how to use one, because it starts off at a low-value like every other skill.

Have you had an advanced weapon and tried using it? I never have, but my understanding is that even at "I just got this on my skill list and this is the first time I'm using this weapon" level of knowledge you still kick ass with that katana.

[Synthesis]

Eff the rules.

Advanced weapon skills are skills that nearly nobody else in game has.

Think like... if you're a master of slashing weapons, and you've 'unlocked' how to use a katana, which "slices" people. NOBODY knows what to do against a katana, most people have never seen it before. Most people have seen swordfights and might understand the basics of a sword fight. But if someone comes in and starts slicing up with a katana, they're at a decent advantage (so long as they know how to use it)

The issue, as it stands, and people "unlock" katanas, but they don't get an advantage of really knowing how to use one, because it starts off at a low-value like every other skill.

Have you had an advanced weapon and tried using it? I never have, but my understanding is that even at "I just got this on my skill list and this is the first time I'm using this weapon" level of knowledge you still kick ass with that katana.

I branched all of them except tridents on a single PC.  You don't "kick ass" with a novice advanced weapon skill.  That being said...by the time you actually branch an advanced weapon skill, your base offense will be so high that you are moderately decent in a fight even if you're using nothing but a wet noodle and a dinner fork.

[Majikal]

Eff the rules.

Advanced weapon skills are skills that nearly nobody else in game has.

Think like... if you're a master of slashing weapons, and you've 'unlocked' how to use a katana, which "slices" people. NOBODY knows what to do against a katana, most people have never seen it before. Most people have seen swordfights and might understand the basics of a sword fight. But if someone comes in and starts slicing up with a katana, they're at a decent advantage (so long as they know how to use it)

The issue, as it stands, and people "unlock" katanas, but they don't get an advantage of really knowing how to use one, because it starts off at a low-value like every other skill.

Have you had an advanced weapon and tried using it? I never have, but my understanding is that even at "I just got this on my skill list and this is the first time I'm using this weapon" level of knowledge you still kick ass with that katana.

I branched all of them except tridents on a single PC.  You don't "kick ass" with a novice advanced weapon skill.  That being said...by the time you actually branch an advanced weapon skill, your base offense will be so high that you are moderately decent in a fight even if you're using nothing but a wet noodle and a dinner fork.

Wrong cause reasons. Carry on.

[Asanadas]

By the time your 50-day warrior has whiffed enough of his near-death recruits while sitting down enough to branch that mythical advanced weapon, you could kill people with only your fist and one arm tied behind your back. I know, because I've gotten to that level except without branching the advanced weapon.

That is, unless you take advantage of the low offense meta to ensure specific fails which fast-tracks you into an advanced weapon around 7 days played. Then, you might be a little weak with it at (novice). 

[Miradus]

By that time, aren't you going to be so badass that you don't really NEED another weapon skill?

[JackGibbons]

By that time, aren't you going to be so badass that you don't really NEED another weapon skill?

Some people like to see all possible skills and max them all, regardless if whether it's NEEDED. It's the 'Achiever' on the Bartle test.

[Miradus]

That's totally me too.  I can't sleep at night knowing there's unmapped areas or missing skills on my skills list.

Or recipes I don't know, or secret doors I haven't found, or people I haven't met.

[Asanadas]

By that time, aren't you going to be so badass that you don't really NEED another weapon skill?

The height of the warrior guild are the advanced weapons. That's their pinnacle. To be denied that pinnacle because you're subjected to RP-mandated constructions denying you the ability to go out and get it --- it's frustrating.

"Yeah Lord Templar I took off from my Sergeant duty and rode north to hit stilt lizards. But guess what, now I can hold a razor!"

Either you break character and chase it, or you complain about it on the GDB (like me), or you play it aloof and give up on advanced weapons even being worth anything a.k.a. the sour grapes to your fox.

But this is somewhat(?) off topic.

[Synthesis]

By the time your 50-day warrior has whiffed enough of his near-death recruits while sitting down enough to branch that mythical advanced weapon, you could kill people with only your fist and one arm tied behind your back. I know, because I've gotten to that level except without branching the advanced weapon.

That is, unless you take advantage of the low offense meta to ensure specific fails which fast-tracks you into an advanced weapon around 7 days played. Then, you might be a little weak with it at (novice). 

Nobody is branching an advanced weapon around 7 days played, unless -maybe- you rolled AI wisdom on a d-elf warrior and then pulled the ONE WEIRD TRICK to keep your recorded play time down.

It took me about 15-20 days played each to branch from slashing, chopping, and bludgeoning.  I'm not sure I could even do it now, because this was when being mounted gave you a serious offense penalty, even at high ride skill levels...which is apparently no longer the case.

On the downside, I had a 60-day warrior that almost nobody knows about/knew about, because I was always out grinding that grind.  I'd guess he was the most codedly skilled warrior in a long, long time (without any kind of secret sauce), and there's probably only 2 or 3 players who'd remember his name.

[Asanadas]

You can be skeptical, but it happened and staff know it happened. That's part of the reason why stilt lizards had gotten nerfed I bet.

[Synthesis]

You can be skeptical, but it happened and staff know it happened. That's part of the reason why stilt lizards had gotten nerfed I bet.

Stilt lizards weren't even top-tier grindmode for warriors...it's like they just took out the middle part of the grind so that you're sure to GET REKT if you try to move on to the real deal.

They were awesome for branching parry on assassins and rangers, because they (usually) didn't UTTERLY DESTROY YOUR ASS while you got some fails in.  What's left out there that can consistently dodge you above journeyman...if you didn't start with parry...hold on to your butts, because it's going to be coming in hard and fast.