The Rise of the Metagame

[boog]

There's nothing stopping people from not looking!

If you like the mystery, you can look away from those things before they're spoiled. The docs would be better coming from a place sanctioned by staff, but!

I understand your problem well, beethoven. I have a good direction sense in real life, but in game? Nope. That's why I stick primarily to city dwellers!

[Malken]

Yeah, if you enjoy mapping the entire world, I don't understand what's keeping you from doing it? It's more of a personal problem than the community's problem if you can't help yourself from spoiling your own fun

The same with skill lists or spell lists or whatever, if you want it to be a total mystery nothing prevents you from keeping it that way - It also takes NOTHING away from people's ability to role-play great characters - the two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Heck, a lot of people in this thread have access to those maps and skill lists and they are also considered very great and important players of our community - Saying that you are against it when -you- yourself have been using them for years now is worthy at best.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I'm on team Synth here.

I think part of the problem is that we tend to post in superlatives on the forum, which leads to a faulty perception that things are more extreme than they really are.

I agree 100% that we drop more casual references to code mechanics on the GDB than we used to, but I can't remember the last truly jarring thing I've seen in game. I challenge everyone to stop for a moment and think of the last truly inexplicable, immersion-breaking thing they've seen in game. I think mine was almost 2 years ago, personally. Sure, I've seen a lot of people grind, and I've seen someone try "charge mekillot", but I haven't seen anyone "boxing lizards" for quite some time. On the whole, I see far less of it than I used to and that's because...

Listen, man...there were no "golden days" where vets fought the good fight, personally grinding it out and gleaning every bit of knowledge piece by miserable piece.

We were all on IRC, AIM, ICQ, Yahoo messenger, etc. etc., blabbing about everything, sharing everything, spreading bugs and exploits, spilling the beans about major plots.

I mean, the old days were probably a million times worse than the game is now.  For realz, y'all.  We were shitbirds.

Remember Trillion? It had AIM, MSN Messanger, and Yahoo Messenger all rolled into one!! I also vaguely remember sitting in a ventrillo chat listening to two guys hunt down a third. "I think he went down off the cliff. Go back to the choke point in the road, and I'll try to flush him back your way." We were shitbirds.

I think the main reason for the rise in mechanic discussion is because the shit-birdiest of us quit the game and built a forum to share their horrible advice on. (I do actually like some of those guys, but it's like Bowling for Soup - 30 years old, not in high school anymore, and still making a living bitching about how bad high school was.) Note that this was not the FIRST time anyone has built an alternate Arm forum to share sekrits, but I think it's the only one that's caught on.

I think there's always been a demand for more information. Not super top sekrets like "what's the name of Tek's pet schnauzer". But simpler information like "when I hide, then sneak to another room, do I have to re-hide, or should I still be hidden?" Stuff that your character would never have to worry about because if they're being stealthy they're being stealthy, but stuff that you the player has to know and have a hard time finding out without IMing your buddy to say "can you see me now?"

In the past questions like that would be instantly stamped down as "find out IC" (even though it's not an IC issue), and then the thread it was asked in would be locked. It was ridiculous, and like any ridiculous prohibition it lead to plenty of good and innocent people having to go get their needs filled from other, less-legitimate sources.

And it's not like giving out basic branch trees and skill information is that much of an advantage. It's the old "book smarts vs street smarts" argument. Knowing the basics of how the combat system works isn't a replacement for having spent hundreds of hours fighting every goddamn thing in the Known World, and harnessing a feel for how the fight is going, and knowing which creatures use what skills. Giving a player a map isn't the same as having it memorized, and knowing where all the scary creatures typically spawn, and what routes are less dangerous than the actual ROADS marked on the map...

I rambled a bit, but the summary is that, even though the (public) discussion of mechanics is up, the abuse of that knowledge is way the fuck down.

[Desertman]

The argument that if we make more information publicly available it will help us police what information people see more readily is ridiculous.

"Well, I would rather they get it from staff than some nefarious source.".

This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Saying, "Some people will get it through naughty means so we should just give it to everyone.", is on par with saying, "Well, some people are assholes, so, we should just asshole-up first and beat them to it.".

If there was ever an idea that more literally described playing to the lowest common denominator  intentionally for zero gain...this is it.

With that, I'm out.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Yeah? How's that been workin' out for ya bud?

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I'm not saying that we should "control" the information we have. If you look, a big part of my post was discussing the futility of trying to control the information. I'm saying that the old mentality of "find out IC" doesn't work.  And that knowing some basic code mechanics isn't going to hurt the game.

But if frustrated players wind up on the shadowboards trying to find out why their piercing skill won't raise, they're going to inadvertently learn quite a bit about Nilazi's while they're there. Personally, I don't care too much. I obviously read it. But the bottom line is that many people find this info necessary, so why shouldn't the imms be a source of it?

[RogueGunslinger]

The argument that if we make more information publicly available it will help us police what information people see more readily is ridiculous.

"Well, I would rather they get it from staff than some nefarious source.".

This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Saying, "Some people will get it through naughty means so we should just give it to everyone.", is on par with saying, "Well, some people are assholes, so, we should just asshole-up first and beat them to it.".

If there was ever an idea that more literally described playing to the lowest common denominator  intentionally for zero gain...this is it.

With that, I'm out.

We're not saying give it to everyone, we're saying give it to those who choose to find it. It makes perfect sense that we would rather someone got their information from staff than some outside source where said information could be very wrong.


Not to mention if someone knows they can get code information here, where it's more restricted, that might keep them from going elsewhere and seeing more than they should see.

[Zenith]

The amount of hate and vitriol being directed at new players in this thread is just... overwhelming and disturbing. I honestly wish I'd never read it because it's making me feel uncomfortable about and unwanted in a game I really enjoy.

Go look at my profile, I haven't yet finished my first year with Arm. I am still a noob in thousands of ways. I can't get from Allanak to Red Storm (and yes, I have the map... I have a hard time reading the wilderness parts). You would be shocked how many times I go the wrong way on roads I've been walking for a year. I don't particularly care how combat works, but it's nice to know enough to not die. Skill progression is useful to know because why on earth would you ever expect to branch scan from listen, or sewing from tanning, or brew from hunt?

I would like someone to tell me why it makes me a bad player that I want to know these things. I don't have a decade (or two) of experience with Arm. I don't have unlimited free time to do nothing but sink myself into the game. Even if I did, there are still other things that I want to do sometimes.

There is twenty years of history to this game. Twenty years of rules. Twenty years of code changes and bug fixes and quirks and development and growth. Twenty years that I can't catch up on no matter how hard I try because I don't have time to spend on it. And yes, every single day I am aware of the fact that in terms of game knowledge, I'm "behind." I do my absolute best to make the game better, more interesting, and more fun, and I hope I succeed.

So please tell me again how as a new player I'm lazy and want the game to be handed to me. How I want it dumbed down to the lowest common denominator to make it less fun for everyone. There are good new players, and there are bad new players. There are good old players, and there are bad old players.

Take a moment and think about just who and what you're disparaging with threads like this, and the effect it could have on your game. You think code is the reason that newbies don't stay? Or so called problem staff members? I'd argue it's threads and community sentiment like this. Never have I ever felt less welcome in an online community than I do right now.

[RogueGunslinger]

+1 Zenith.

I rambled a bit, but the summary is that, even though the (public) discussion of mechanics is up, the abuse of that knowledge is way the fuck down.

This is also a point I agree with.

[Alesan]

everything

Everything you said here is something I wish I could have thought of and said, and you said it better than I ever could have.

+1.

[Miradus]

Heh, I don't disagree with you, Zenith, but as a new player I don't particularly feel offended.

I feel like it's a small group of "entitled" veterans who are concerned that they're losing their edge. Every game I've ever been in had a minority group that felt that way. I've never had the time or inclination to be overly concerned with that sort of thing. I'm too busy learning and eroding their perceived "edge".

This game isn't that difficult to understand. That "edge" vanishes pretty quickly and it's not a particularly competitive game anyway. Maybe it is if you want to involve yourself in a whole lot of plots and schemes, but that's a whole other game within the game.

[CodeMaster]

Take a moment and think about just who and what you're disparaging with threads like this, and the effect it could have on your game. You think code is the reason that newbies don't stay? Or so called problem staff members? I'd argue it's threads and community sentiment like this. Never have I ever felt less welcome in an online community than I do right now.

I was about to post something along these lines.  There are probably a number of reasons for "the rise of the metagame", but among them might be the occasional eyerolling that vets do.

I once said "hey apprentice level weapons are actually really good, don't worry about it" and someone posted a meme laugh or something back at me with an "um no".  After seeing that, can you imagine a new player not wanting to know what makes apprentice-level weapon skills so laughable?

[BadSkeelz]

+1 Zenith.

There's a lot in this thread that's ridiculous or even delusional, but Zenith's post is the first one that's upsetting.

[Jingo]

I'd say that anything you really need to know is in the documentation. And if you have questions you can hop on teamspeak or helper chat.

Edit: Wait a moment what are we even talking about.

[catchall]

This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp that.

Oh, really, is it?  You know, I was going to avoid pushing these particular buttons, but you've exposed yourself in one of the most transparent examples of insecurity and projection I've ever seen, while casting a generalized flame into the crowd in a cowardly attempt to deter scrutiny.  What else am I supposed to do here?

Let me tell you about some things adults do:  They go to work.  They develop skills to pursue better opportunities for themselves, their loved ones, and their communities.  Often, they have families that they provide for and take care of.  They have real responsibilities.  I could go on, if these notions are foreign to you.

Clocking in 10, 20, 40 complete days of various parts play-acting and skillgrinding is a pastime, to put it bluntly, far, far, far[/i] more suited to the life of an overgrown child than to that of an adult.  The adult will have to schedule that time carefully, and Arm will have to be a high priority.  The overgrown child can find that spare time just lying around. We all know this. Furthermore, that adult has probably realized by now that the dedication, leadership, and scheming skills that are necessary to contribute and succeed at a high level in-game can yield tremendous non-virtual rewards by applying them in the real world (excepting M, though C and B do well in small doses). 

Adults have been dropping out of this game constantly for years.  This is a known fact of attrition in all online games -- adults leave as their lives become more adult.  It is truly heartbreaking (and--I suspect--far more revealing than you intend) that you are trying to identify pouring untold amounts of time into an online game as a marker of adulthood.

Of course, Arm is a jewel among online games, and when the play-acting part is emphasized and done well, it's an engaging experience suited for an adult sensibility.  Of that there is no doubt.  But the advancement mechanics are obviously heavily weighted toward the overgrown child demographic, and everyone knows it, which is why this desperate bluster to the contrary reads so empty and tragic. Like a frat defending its cherished hazing rituals, there will always be a certain macho posturing from self-styled vets afraid of seeing their hours of skill-grinding as having been in vain.

And let me turn the macho bluster the other way around:  You couldn't handle adults in this game.  You need the buffer of hundreds of hours of grinding to keep the adults from outshining you.  Adding options to reduce the need for skill-grinding makes the game more friendly to adults, and more friendly to noobs, and that's why you're afraid of it.  You know you're not smarter or more skilled, you've just been doing it longer.


I suggest a simple alternative that solves the skill-grinding conundrum by means of a choice: Ibusoe's very good tiered advancement proposal here -- http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49935.msg905141.html

To simplify the OP, the player would have an option of various levels of starting skill boosts with some corresponding cost in the form of a lowered skill cap.  That's it.  With 3 levels it would look roughly like this:

Tier 1: Like current PCs.
Tier 2: Modest boost to starting skills, modestly lowered skillcaps.
Tier 3: Good starting skills, little advancement potential.


For those that, like Armaddict, enjoy the long climb to perfection (a sentiment I have enjoyed and experienced over several long-lived PCs), option 1 is available, and they can play the game like they always have.

For those with varying degrees of impatience, whether imposed by real-life adult responsibilities, noobish inexperience, or a childish impetuousness, more ready-to-go options are available, with a perfectly fair tradeoff.  As a leader, I would have loved it if people who knew perfectly well they had limited time would app up a boosted PC who could be codedly useful now instead of a week or two from now.  Curating hires from noob level is great, but a lot of action is slowed down as a result.

The main objections that will arise at this point are variants on the typical nerd gripe -- "other people will be able to enjoy the game in a different way then I do, *pout*".  I'm going to trust it's obvious why that's a treacherous road to go down, one will bring us to the tragic ironies of a "sperg" insult in conjunction with a defense of an arcane, obscure, rule-based system that requires hours of performing repetitive tasks in social isolation.

[Refugee]

Holy cow.

I enjoyed the hell out of reading that.

[Kryos]

The argument that if we make more information publicly available it will help us police what information people see more readily is ridiculous.

"Well, I would rather they get it from staff than some nefarious source.".

This doesn't make any sense.

Either they should find this out IC through playing the game, or they shouldn't.

Saying, "Some people will get it through naughty means so we should just give it to everyone.", is on par with saying, "Well, some people are assholes, so, we should just asshole-up first and beat them to it.".

If there was ever an idea that more literally described playing to the lowest common denominator  intentionally for zero gain...this is it.

With that, I'm out.

Oh boy do we disagree, and oh boy does this smell like a false dichotomy.  If a player has access to all the basic code use and preliminary common knowledge of anyone else who has played this game for x amount of time, you conclude there is not a reduced incentive to try and pry these things(and more) out of non-site resources?  All the network and information science I've been exposed to seems to disagree with you.

And mind, I'm not saying things that no player has access to through legitimate means such as code functionality.  The E/A types will tend to try to reverse engineer this on their own and for their own pleasure, I suspect.  I have bias in this last statement, as by Bartle classification I have a big A streak in me,  and nearly no E admittedly.  But it also offers insight.

[Malken]

I would like someone to tell me why it makes me a bad player that I want to know these things. I don't have a decade (or two) of experience with Arm. I don't have unlimited free time to do nothing but sink myself into the game. Even if I did, there are still other things that I want to do sometimes.

Don't worry about it, most of us don't think that it makes you a bad player at all

And I know for a fact that some of those who posted against an easier share of code information (to a reasonable degree, of course) and whatnot actually possess and use these maps and skill sheets they seem to be so against.

[Case]

Zenith's post is sad

I like Zenith

[valeria]

There's no qualitative difference between code knowledge acquired over the course of 10+ years of trial and error, code knowledge acquired from a google search and a trip to the whingers' board, code knowledge acquired by carefully reading through the GDB, and code knowledge acquired because staff decided to put it in a helpfile.  The knowledge itself affects (or doesn't affect) how someone plays the game in exactly the same way.  I don't trust someone to play their character better, in the sense of 'well my character wouldn't know that so I'm going to pretend I don't,' based on the manner in which they acquired their knowledge.

Then again, my philosophy is to generally not care what other people are doing or how they play the game.  I don't care if people twink this skill or use that OOC map to navigate south to north on a character that should know to travel from one city to the other.  I'm more focused on doing my own task to the best of my ability, and that task is playing a fun and believable character.  The only things that ruin anything for me are (1) the OOC spread of IC information, and (2) the use of OOC motivations to justify IC actions.

[Kryos]

There's no qualitative difference between code knowledge acquired over the course of 10+ years of trial and error, code knowledge acquired from a google search and a trip to the whingers' board, code knowledge acquired by carefully reading through the GDB, and code knowledge acquired because staff decided to put it in a helpfile.  The knowledge itself affects (or doesn't affect) how someone plays the game in exactly the same way.  I don't trust someone to play their character better, in the sense of 'well my character wouldn't know that so I'm going to pretend I don't,' based on the manner in which they acquired their knowledge.

Then again, my philosophy is to generally not care what other people are doing or how they play the game.  I don't care if people twink this skill or use that OOC map to navigate south to north on a character that should know to travel from one city to the other.  I'm more focused on doing my own task to the best of my ability, and that task is playing a fun and believable character.  The only things that ruin anything for me are (1) the OOC spread of IC information, and (2) the use of OOC motivations to justify IC actions.

Strong points, and I failed to link properly the acquisition of 'bad' information from non site resources that comes with seeking standard information that may not have been present.  But I meant to!

[evilcabbage]

This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp that.

wisdom of a great cabbage-to-be

my friend, the cabbage has already struck the blow. do not resort to such unnecessary flaming. do not sink to that level. there is no need to further antagonize. he realizes that what he posted was unnecessarily rude and he is apologetic.

i hope. otherwise, he will just "grumble" about it somewhere else.

cabbage knows all. sees all.

cabbage thinks this idea of a "metagame" is just a constructive illusion by a lettuce people meant to justify players using and even abusing the code to attempt to gain an advantage.

one hundred pushups. one hundred situps. a ten kilometer run. do not turn the heat up. do not turn the air conditioning on. dedicate yourself to this every day, and you will become stronger.


you can ascend to the level of a cabbage simply by training in a realistic manner. realistically, devoting several in game hours to combat and combative training is good.

hunting for a few hours, or even a day, is good.

but remember to please take breaks. do not abuse the code that is given to you. play a realistic character. if you hunt a day, maybe take a day off. if you spar really hard one day, do something different the next. you may be noticed, and staff may even grant you small bumps here and there as reward for good roleplay.

they probably will not, and i am in the belief that it most certainly will not happen, but nothing is impossible, so just do it. roleplay. bring your character to life.

the cabbage points to this metagame, and calls it foul. the cabbage declares the metagame is a falsity, is is an entity that is a usurper of all that we stand for. strike it down with me, my brussels sprouts, and you shall ascend with me to cabbagehood.


tl;dr version: metagame is bad, all it does is detract from what is really important. "exploring to map the world" is not metagaming. using a map to find your way along common travel routes is not metagaming.

sharing this well-constructed map with everyone and anyone is just abuse of knowledge and trust. the cabbage will find you. and he will kill ruin your metagame.

[evilcabbage]

the defeatist tone of a wounded lettuce

brother, it is time to shed your skin. tear off your flesh. let the cabbage seep into you. allow it to merge with you.

let me join our minds, and we shall become one. you will never feel more welcome than when you finally merge with the all-powerful being that is myself.

[Tuannon]

I tend to think that the game has gone from the big taboo being sharing maps and shit to the big taboo being informing each other through OOC means about IC happenings.

As someone who used to regularly not read messages from the likes of Cyberpatrol, I approve of this change in a way. But I deliberately obfuscative about a lot of things I am doing IC if it every comes to that.

Not that I talk to anyone about Arm away from the game, hell I rarely attend the Teamspeak server.

[boog]

I tend to think that the game has gone from the big taboo being sharing maps and shit to the big taboo being informing each other through OOC means about IC happenings.

As someone who used to regularly not read messages from the likes of Cyberpatrol, I approve of this change in a way. But I deliberately obfuscative about a lot of things I am doing IC if it every comes to that.

Not that I talk to anyone about Arm away from the game, hell I rarely attend the Teamspeak server.

Which is a travesty, because between you and ghosty, it's a tight competition between sexiest voice.

Back on topic:
Honestly, I liked the tiered approach mentioned above. But that's because I prefer RP to grinding. If i wanted to grind levels or skills, I'd go back to playing WoW. But I've neither the time nor inclination.