Hiring NPC Guards

[Dresan]

A new city service, perhaps from the byn. For a substancial yearly fee, a person can call one mercenary to guard them.

In order to get the guard the person will have to go to the office and request it, if they yearly fee is paid up, they will be given one. The guard can be dismissed at any time, even from inside apartments, they will just leave (fade). However after you dismiss it you will need to go back to the office if you want to get them back.

You cannot order the guard to do anything, he will only guard you, and rescue you if you fail. If you attack anyone, he won't help or rescue you. If you step out of the city, he will be dismissed. Depending on your yearly fee you will be able to get a more experienced guard. This would be a pricey service, I can see it starting at 2000 sid a year, and moving up from there to 4 thousand or more.

However with the addition of extended sub-guilds, and changes to sub-guilds, not to mention the eventually guild changes, this is something that could really help the more social/RP roles not be such push overs to someone with hide/sneak. Yes, these roles generally have people in high places watching out for them, that doesn't help them survive an attack from someone whom was trying to rob their apartment. Basically their coins and status should help them survive attacks more, of course their RP will help prevent such attacks in the first place, but you shouldn't just need a 5 day burglar to go kill a 100 day merchant. If they are rich, then it should require more effort to kill them because they should be able to afford guards in a city.Unfortunately this type of job would be too boring for a PC do for any large amount of time.

It not only be a great money sink but also give social characters some more avenues of protection if they have been successful in life.

[Alesan]

If this were to actually happen, 2000 a year is way, way too cheap.

[Dresan]

That is a pretty generous yearly salary for part time work if you ask me. And 2000 be starting pay.

[BadSkeelz]

Hire the Byn.

[Dresan]

To watch me idle in my apartment for 3 or 4 RL hours?


As I said, not really something that fun or realistic for PCs to do. Otherwise nobles/templars would get PC guards.

[BadSkeelz]

If the pay's right.

You maybe should just log out if you're idling though.

[nauta]

I like the idea.  The code is (almost) there, and it'd give those who have the personality for it something to spend their money on.

PCs are to be preferred, but from experience playing off-peak, PCs aren't always around.  Besides, being a guard is notoriously boring.

I'd want it to be rare, and for that it should be both expensive -- two large seems fine -- and also something you have to get a permit from the templarate for.

[BadSkeelz]

The more I think about it the sillier this sounds.

If you can afford a guard or Byn escort, you can probably afford to live in a nice apartment building with higher skill guards. You're paying Nenyuk for the protection then.

When just out and about town, have some sort of open-ended contract with a Byn Sarge (or other ranks!) to supply you a guard for as long as you need it.

This just seems like another anti-player-interaction feature that only favors the spamcrafters.

[Dresan]

Sometimes I am just chatting to people through the way. Other times I'm posting or reading something on the side . I am watching the screen in case something happens though.

Hey Badskeelz! if you think it'll be a fun role to stand around and make sure my character stays alive for as many hours as I want to play, want to step up and do it? I know you can't recruit OOCly, but perhaps the staff is willing to make an exception in this case and allow you to prove your point? I mean you just have to name your virtual price to play this wonderful role for hours on end.


(I am idle while posting this...imagine the fun!)

[BadSkeelz]

2K a day and you're golden

[BadSkeelz]

If I was a Bynner I would actually be tempted to murder anyone who made use of this feature, to show what happens when you opt for shoddier product.

[Miradus]

You'd get bored and bash their head in after twenty minutes of watching them craft stone mugs.

I played a merchant character once who tried to hire the Byn to do something as simple as escort me from Nak to Luir's.

Nobody I could find online had the authority to agree to do it. Best I could get was an OOC stating, "the boss logs in usually every Friday at around 8pm", or something to that effect.

Coordinating even a relatively mundane activity with a PC organization takes a significant amount of time. Particularly when everything has to be passed up to the top of the authority chain and back down again. And while it's relatively easy to coordinate an escort or guard with an independent, it's dodgy as hell.

"You say you're rich, completely helpless, and need someone to escort you through a vast stretch of empty territory where nobody can hear you scream for help? Sure, I'll do it," says a menacing hooded figure in 'rinthi accented sirihish, while fingering the hilt of his bloody dagger.

I think NPC guards would be a decent addition. A money sink for wealthier independents and they're not likely to be so powerful (even at top pay scales) as to provide complete immunity from raiders, thieves, or assassins. What I'd like to have out of it is an NPC who follows me around that I can speak with and puppeteer a little in appropriate situations. It could even be skill-based and spread out to more guilds and subguilds than just wimpy merchants and such. Consider the warrior/mercenary whose dream is to command a squad of NPC soldiers? Or a hunter who wants to lead a hunting expedition of NPC's out into the wastes?

[Dresan]

Except the service would probably be offered by the Byn since they do that kind of stuff. But again NPC, because no human being with a half decent life and self respect would want to be to silently guard someone for any extended period of time. Escorts are exciting, city guard duty, not so much. However, if you see someone using a similar service, what you can do though is train your ass off for hours on end, or work with a partner to kill this person. The only thing a guard will do is put a bit more challenge into the planning of an assassin.  

The game favors the skill grinders who can 'get things done' as opposed to the indie role-player who are the driving force behind many plots. It doesn't take much for these people to be killed currently, they look at someone with a couple days under their belt the wrong way, and they are easily killed. When in fact they should have the means to afford more protection, not just perhaps make some people care after all their work and effort is gone.

And again, this would only be for city guard duty. Outside the city...well you need to hire PC then.

[Lizzie]

To watch me idle in my apartment for 3 or 4 RL hours?


As I said, not really something that fun or realistic for PCs to do. Otherwise nobles/templars would get PC guards.

It's also not fun or "realistic" to idle in your apartment for 3 or 4 RL hours (which would equate to 3 or 4 game-days of just sitting there like a statue).

If you want to not interact with the game for 3-4 RL hours, then log out. There's no shame in it.

[Inks]

To watch me idle in my apartment for 3 or 4 RL hours?


As I said, not really something that fun or realistic for PCs to do. Otherwise nobles/templars would get PC guards.

It's also not fun or "realistic" to idle in your apartment for 3 or 4 RL hours (which would equate to 3 or 4 game-days of just sitting there like a statue).

If you want to not interact with the game for 3-4 RL hours, then log out. There's no shame in it.

For once I agree with Lizzie.

You could set up a contract with the Byn for this. X price for Runners and X for Troopers.

[Dresan]

I personally play how I want. I see plenty of people idling in the taverns, at least I go somewhere quiet to sleep/idle. You really like zoning in on trivial points though, which is actually another thread all together about how you think people should play this game. 

Back to the idea though.

The price can be argued though. 2000 too cheap? alright, what would be fair in a place where people are dirty poor? Also going apartment to insta logging out? I guess apartments are supposed to be death traps for everyone who hasn't rolled ranger/warrior with strength/endurance and twinked out for 10 days.

[BadSkeelz]

If you can go to an apartment, you've already paid for an NPC guard: the Nenyuki bouncer at the entrance.

[Dresan]

If you can go to an apartment, you've already paid for an NPC guard: the Nenyuki bouncer at the entrance.

Allanak is 3D now man...and most burglars are probably also your neighbours

[BadSkeelz]

Most apartments, however, are not. And the Gaj, despite its prices, is supposed to be a shitty apartment building.

If you don't want to get ganked while you're idling/crafting/mudsexing in your apartment, move to better digs. Or ask a pre-existing organization if some sort of additional protection could be arranged.

[Asanadas]

If you can go to an apartment, you've already paid for an NPC guard: the Nenyuki bouncer at the entrance.

And when did he ever stop anything? 

I think this would be a neat idea, but in game-design terms it'd be taking away a piece of the pie from the sponsored nobility, and because of that it's probably not going to happen. Real shame.

If you want to craft and idle in peace, I've definitely done it behind the walls of the GMH compounds.

[BadSkeelz]

If you can go to an apartment, you've already paid for an NPC guard: the Nenyuki bouncer at the entrance.

And when did he ever stop anything? 

Another thing I wanted to bring up: any NPC you get is probably not going to be much better.

[Dresan]

Joining a clan is something I do join when I don't have a lot of time to play and want everything given to me, in exchange for an hour or two log in time at the most per day, if that.


Clans give you alot, but they can be boring (to me), so boring that I see those clans need those indie merchants who sell one too many of weapons/armors/cloths/spice/etc/etc to go hunt down and slaughter in order to keep entertained. Giving indies that are successful and SOCIAL a few more things to help is a good thing for the game I think. And a nice alternative to skill grinding to get things done.

If all you do is spamcraft, I don't think you need guards to protect you. You can save extra money by not interacting with others, not pissing anyone off, not starting anything. The people that needs guards are the people who are probably getting into plots and are very likely to have someone sent to kill them.

[whitt]

If you can go to an apartment, you've already paid for an NPC guard: the Nenyuki bouncer at the entrance.

And when did he ever stop anything?  

Another thing I wanted to bring up: any NPC you get is probably not going to be much better.

Agreed, stealth skill still pwns any attempt at detection, so NPC guard will just get ROFL stomped while you're idling and then so will you.  Granted, PC guard won't have much more of a chance, but at least it's a chance.  That chance being the stealth skill using PC won't do anything at all if they know there's at least one active PC in the room.  They'll just move on to a room who's owner they've wayed enough to be sure they're offline.

I played a merchant character once who tried to hire the Byn to do something as simple as escort me from Nak to Luir's.

Nobody I could find online had the authority to agree to do it. Best I could get was an OOC stating, "the boss logs in usually every Friday at around 8pm", or something to that effect.

Might be easier now with the new Byn rank?  Not sure.

[Refugee]

We tried having PC guards fitted with certain important PCs on SoI and it just never worked.  It's very boring for the guard, who really can't do anything if the PC isn't logged on because he has to be available when he shows up.  And it's not feasible for the VIP because if his guard isn't logged in, he's kinda stuck. 

I think it's an interesting idea that can be looked at.

[whitt]

We tried having PC guards fitted with certain important PCs on SoI and it just never worked.  It's very boring for the guard, who really can't do anything if the PC isn't logged on because he has to be available when he shows up.  And it's not feasible for the VIP because if his guard isn't logged in, he's kinda stuck. 

I think it's an interesting idea that can be looked at.

Very true from a logistics standpoint, it's next to impossible to tie together two (especially casual) players made more difficult when there's no means of offline communication.  I think the larger problems are mob stability during resets/crashes and the lack of real value that an NPC guard would present to any significant threat. 

[Dresan]

My idea is not to have a guard that makes you immune to shit, just to give you a chance to run away. Right now, if you are 100 day old merchant, go goes into his apartment, and is followed by a 5 day assassin who has been hired by their mate to kill them. You have no chance. The kill command and some poisons will take care of you easily, despite all your days played. Sure the other aides might cry, and templar might fume after, but you are still dead.

With my idea, if the PC has invested in a guard, then his enemies have to invest in someone to overcome that guard. Maybe with a partner or by having more skill. The guard only gives a merchant a chance, with enough skill and effort he is dead. But if you send someone unskilled enough, then the guard might be able to rescue if it fails to guard. Allowing the PC to run away.

To  be honest this might also a boon to actual assassins, instead of just people with sneak/hide.

[BadSkeelz]

If you're a 100-day merchant who hasn't devoted at least 5 of those days to boxing/sparring you kind of deserve to get whacked.

[Saellyn]

If you're a 100-day merchant who hasn't devoted at least 5 of those days to boxing/sparring you kind of deserve to get whacked.

Not every single person in the entire world knows how to fight or wants to learn.

[BadSkeelz]

Then those PCs should die or find others willing to die for them. Zalanthas has no place for those who want to live in safety without being able to safeguard it for themselves.

I don't disagree with the bodyguard concept in principle. This suggestion, however, seems both redundant and damaging to player interaction.

There are already coded security benefits a rich PC can obtain. Some are NPC or environment driven, others are PC.


What I would like to see is the privilege of living in the really nice (and much more secure) Nenyuk apartment buildings be up for sale, and not just restricted to those of particular clans. A rich enough (and I mean very rich) indie should be able to buy their way in.

[Miradus]

Then those PCs should die or find others willing to die for them. Zalanthas has no place for those who want to live in safety without being able to safeguard it for themselves.

I don't disagree with the bodyguard concept in principle. This suggestion, however, seems both redundant and damaging to player interaction.

There are already coded security benefits a rich PC can obtain. Some are NPC or environment driven, others are PC.


What I would like to see is the privilege of living in the really nice (and much more secure) Nenyuk apartment buildings be up for sale, and not just restricted to those of particular clans. A rich enough (and I mean very rich) indie should be able to buy their way in.

I would also like to be able to travel with a trained gortok as a highly skilled wilderness ranger.

So the NPC concept goes beyond just a guard to stand over you while you whack out widgets. Let's face it ... all we're really doing here is playing with digital dolls. I'd like a few more dolls under my control as a player.

I'm aware this is a code/balance issue ... but just throwing some thoughts out there in case it catches fire in the head of someone who actually has some pull.

[WanderingOoze]

If I had the playtimes I used to, I would totally roll up a
City guard type pc. It would only get borimg if my employer
Was a bore, and for guarding an idling player? Sure, just
Gives me time to solo rp, or way my buddies and compliain
About what a tool my boss is. 

[Synthesis]

> follow soldier

PROBLEM SOLVED

[Chettaman]

The byn hires out NPC guards - an example of what's in my head since I woke up too early, I'm cranky and I'm going back to bed soon:
question: I've never considered guards people before... who the hell feeds them?

Note: elves won't ride mounts and they may steal from you
• The bad elf mercenary - 100 a day he might not finish the job and he'll even leave the city with you. Reaction time slow if he reacts at all since you dying means he gets to loot you.)
• the good elf mercenary - 200 a day but he'll stick with you until you dismiss him and protect you with his life.
• the best elf mercenary - 500 a day  Not only will he stick with you, the only thing that might beat him is a miracle. also his steal is maxed.

• the half giant mercenary - 1000 a day they're your typical half giant.

• the dwarven mercenary - 775 a day typical human mercenary

• the human mercenary - 650 a day  your typical human mercenary.
and of course you can send in a request for some sort of special contract or whatever, but I don't think two thousand a year is enough either. The byn won't ''escort'' you for less than five small. xD
-----------------------
other than byn mercenary:
I dunno... have them walking throughout the city or sitting in the gaj or something.


the numbers are pretty big. You can shave them down or increase them. That's just my idea. Blah.

[Malifaxis]

God no.

Dear God no.

Just no.

10 large a year?  MAYBE.  But 2k?  Fuck that.

[Dresan]

The very best apartments in this game used to be 1000 a month. The VERY BEST salaries in the game from the GHM is 600 a month. My runner went on an escort mission which took almost two IC games, he almost got killed by gith, lost his 450 sid beetle, watched others like him die.

His pay: 50 sid. 50 FUCKING SID.

Lets not forget he had to pay 300 sid for the luxury of that particular job too and the job eventually killed him before he could earn any profit.  

I originally said this could be a service offered by the byn so they shouldn't be making independant levels of money, no one in this game does after joining a clan. The guard would have all the luxuries the byn provides. BUT YES. Fuck YES, 2000 large a year, in allanak, to stay in the safety of the city for what is essentially minumun wage security guard work is a damn good pay in a fucking city where people can't afford water.  My PC in clan haven't ever made that much. I expect that at that pay the guard will not be that amazing, but again, that would be STARTING, I definately see 3,4,5k or more offers for more experienced guards.

I don't know where you people are getting 10k a year from, for this line of work or even 1000 a day. 1000 sid gets you the enitre unit of byn (troopers,giants and all) to risk their lives getting you from one side of the known to the other for as long as it takes to get you to the other side. On a day the staff is feeling fisty with gith mobs, some of them might not come back alive.

I must seriously be playing in the damn wrong clans and playing my indies wrong if the average pay is 1000 a day though. Lets not forget at the 10-20k obsidian coin range you can already buy BadSkeelz in RL, I think an npc guard should  a little cheaper.

[Synthesis]

An NPC guard really isn't going to save you from anything except some newbie scrublord, anyway.

An assassin will get the backstab for free, then the first round of attacks for free.  If you're not a) dead already or b) poisoned with the good stuff, then your attempted murderer was a dingus and you probably could've just fled out.

[Dresan]

That is basically it. I want to be able to pay for protection against the newbie scrub lords.

Someone needed to have paid good sid for that assassin that can land backstab. And the assassin would also need to kill the guard, else the guard should be able to tell the templars, byn, friends  a description of who kill his client. Again depending on the level of that guard, killing the actual guard and/or a escaping would make the job less easy. Not impossible or even that hard, but less easy depending on how much the social PC invested in their protection.

With guilds, sub-guilds getting touched up, maybe main guilds being brought on par with rangers. Lets not forget skill bumps.  Social PC who get things done through RP instead of skills really need some more high end services. Protection from low level scrubs is a fine investment if you ask me even if that basically increases those chances of running out from probably to possibly.

[Chettaman]

ugh. Debating prices isn't my thing. I really have trouble giving value to anything.
But you're a salarri for the prestige. You almost somebody now! Not only that, safe-ish place to sleep, Semi-comfortable beddings, like-minded people you can kind of depend on, food, water whenever you want, and now you want more money!? Hh... We'll kick you out and find some other person willing to get payed next to nothing.
Could you survive independently off of 50 sid a month without a place to sleep, without the knowledge or ability to get your own food or water? Hahaha. ... hahahaha. No. No you couldn't. So you can either go back to surviving however you were surviving or get out of my family's face.

xD
My favorite part about this game, I think are the ironic rewards people get sometimes while others are getting armor that shines or swords that cleave through time and space. People like Dresan and me get 50 coins for outstanding service. rofl


----
anyway. How about:
Bad elf mercenary: 25 coins a day - descent at fighting - will probably steal
good elf mercenary: 50 coins a day - really good fighter - will probably steal
human: 95 coins a day - really good fighter
dwarf: 65 coins a day - may sometimes wander because of some focus you don't know about - really good fighter
half-giant: 150 coins a day. - really good fighter

There are eleven days in a week so... if you get a half giant guard it'll be a max of 1300 a week and that's maxed.

[Dresan]

Those are the wages people are making an entire IC week in my opinion. Its what my indie PCs sometimes make on average especially when starting out AND they need to leave the city to make that. The guards are basically working inside the safety of the city.  In this case since they are part of a clan, they get food and water covered.  Those that want to make more, often have to head outside, where all manner of beast, witch or worse can get to them. Therefore pretty good pay for a weeks work. That can pay an apartment for them and all sorts of things.

I think giants should be rare and limited to templars and nobles.

Going by that however, lets say that human costs 100 sid exactly, 1400 every two weeks or an IC month for a good human fighter is reasonable. 4.2 K a year is worth that. However if he isn't good and just decent then I can see the pay being lower, and such. I think people are focusing way too much on the cost. I said 2k could be starting, but I'd be okay with it being double that too. Its supposed to be a money sink that should be valuable to have and gives social PC a slightly better chance to survive attacks from anyone who isn't skilled with backstab. With more people having access to hide/sneak, I'm okay with that.  

[Kankfly]

There's this type of service available already, just not with NPC. Check your local bars for rumors, and ask around IG.

As for why 2k a year is way too cheap, you're basically asking someone to stand around and do nothing for IC days, weeks, missing training, as well as a bunch of other contract works that will bring in extra income to a company that basically does a lot of stuff for money - Yes, I'm talking about NPC Bynners too. If you can cover all that potentially lost income/training, go ahead, but 2k a year doesn't.

Since Byn contract prices are settled with the current sergeants in charge, that means there are no set prices when it comes to jobs. Some sergeants might price you higher, some might price you lower. NPC guards don't really allow that kind of flexibility, which is why I think it's better if there's no NPC Byn guards for hire.

[Akariel]

How would a system like this increase player on player interaction and RP?

[Chettaman]

Yeah. Good question, Akariel!
No one actually hires PC body guards. So why all of a sudden do you want NPC body guards?

I withdraw all of my suggestions!

[WithSprinkles]

I've seen PCs hire other PCs as body guards PLENTY of times. No, they don't stand over you and watch you creepily while you sleep/Way/eat breakfast, but they were there when that other PC was out and about and it worked very well for the squishy PC in question. It's about going out and hiring someone, being in an organization with someone with a vested interest in keeping you alive or making friends with someone who wants you not dead.

NPC bodyguards, in my opinion, are just fine where they are. With nobles, templars, high ranking GMH family members having to work to earn one and maybe even people who get to the upper tier of a PC made MMH. I mean, it's a status symbol more than anything and you still kinda need a living, breathing PERSON to save your butt if something really goes screwy.

TOTAL Noob perspective here, never having dealt with an NPC bodyguard before, but even if you managed to flee into the sunset after an attack... what about the NPC bodyguard you left behind? They just die in the street? Or the attacker leaves them alone? I may have it wrong, but nobles and templars seem to usually be pretty aware of where they leave those guys. Wouldn't having one of those need a little responsibility player-wise to make sure they came back too somehow? And if this system were implemented, if you (potentially) lost a lot of guards, they shouldn't want to work with you anymore. Or jack the prices way, way up on you. Or maybe step aside rather than take that hit.

It's not like you can take these NPCs on a ride with you, can you? So I think this is for city bound characters. So.. I get that people may want the bodyguard option, but if you're out there promoting RP and moving and shaking it all over town, finding a breathing PC to watch your back shouldn't be difficult if you really want to. This shouldn't be available for random unaffiliated people who manage to gather huge amounts of sid.

[Asanadas]

How would a system like this increase player on player interaction and RP?

Force projection. Giving guild merchants teeth so that they can be more flamboyant. Status symbol. False senses of protection.

All off the top of my head.

Like Badskeelz said, players can theoretically do this already for other players; they're just not flexible in time constraints, and it's soul-crushingly boring.

[Dresan]

How would a system like this increase player on player interaction and RP?

Nobles and Templars get those guards for a reason. How does them having guards help player interaction and RP? For staff to argue that this system isn't needed because players can do the job, they would need to remove these things from PC noble and templars and allow open slavery again, instead of the very limited fashion we see today. Which I think  is the way it is for VERY good reason. There is a reason no one works as a stable boy. The guarding I've seen is for very short period of times. I have had PC has hired PC guards for events or other things, that will not change but this is not always possible for the daily boring shit my PC, like sit around and way people for 20 or 30 minutes.

As I stated before, players who need this system are social PCs who are probably getting mixed up in plots. You have to be DOING something to be willing to spend this amount of sid in a system like this after all.  And you have to be doing more then just buying from shops to generate this amount of coins.  If all you are doing is spam-crafting then you probably aren't going to be on anyone's hit list. Furthermore, you probably have twinked your skills to the point you can defend yourself against most people anyways.

This system would be specifically to allow non-combat social indie roles to have a bit more survivability in a world where everyone and their mothers can get sneak/hide.

That way there is more incentive to go out and socialize, step on toes, get involved with plots, and NOT be the easiest target in the room regardless of how rich you are just because you rent an apartment and the hired PC 'guard'  doesn't feel like logging in for the day just to watch you waying other people. With clans being what they are, a portion of the fun generated in this game comes from indies. They are the bandits, the villians, the people that try to accomplish something, the people that create something new and fresh, these people are the ones that give clans something to do that doesn't feel like a randomly generated fed-ex quest. The best way to survive in this game will ALWAYS be to just join an untouchable clan and just sit your ass somewhere in the compound, I don't think staff ever need to worry about making it any safer than that. This doesn't help interaction, so give those who do go out and interact a few more tools so that it isn't a suicide venture. In turn we might be able to remove half-giant PC solders from streets allowing for more crime as well for those that don't afford such great protection.  

Sorry, but I know where you were going with this,but  again people don't often get hired to do guard work for any long period of time. Its a boring role, you aren't losing much interaction there by adding NPC guards. The only you'll see is people having one guard for quiet times in the apartment and two or more guards(one NPC/ others PC) when they are meeting someone in potentially dangerous...or just to show off which for me personally is the real reason to hire PC guards in public settings anyways.  The game needs more incentives to go out and do things, to go out to get those 40k bounties, incentives for interaction and socializing. This generates plots, stories, schemes, betrays and everything in between.  Unfortunately, it still feels like earning coins is a waste of time after a certain point.  

[Armaddict]

How would a system like this increase player on player interaction and RP?

I'm not actually for this idea, but I would like to note that staff seems to use this as a selective means of shutting down ideas.  I can spew this right back at you for every idea from closing down clans to making a massive push for tablelands diversification, or showing the skills list, or anything.

This idea is about being able to purchase realistic and reliable services from the game, where depending on it from PC's is not reliable.  That's it.  So I find this kind of questioning...questionable.

Edit:  And do not derail with this, if you want to argue it out with me about what increases roleplay and what doesn't, go ahead and PM me or move this elsewhere.  I was pointing out that this question only comes out to shoot things down, but does not seem to dictate what we put in.

[Desertman]

A system is already in place that will allow you to hire multiple NPC guards if you put in the work and prove you actually need them/deserve them.

[roobee]

Would this take IC or OOC efforts to do. If OOC, could you elaborate on how to do this?

[Lizzie]

Would this take IC or OOC efforts to do. If OOC, could you elaborate on how to do this?

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

[Asanadas]

Player created clans aren't offering the same idea as this suggestion, guys. Come on.

I mean, perhaps one of the benefits of having a player clan could marginally substitute for what's being suggested, but it's in no way equal.

[Malken]

I think the main problem with that idea is that you can't really set a price on an idea like this because for some indies, 5000 'sids is 2 RL worth of "work" tops and if you hand them NPC guards on top of that then it becomes even easier afterward to pay for these NPCs. The economy is busted (mainly because we have people who can play this game 20 hours a day and mainly because of the aging code itself) so the only "equalizer" is that indies can make a lot of money quickly but they are left rather unprotected doing so in the end but those who join a House makes relatively less amount of money (in theory) but they have the protection (including NPCs) that often come with it.

[Desertman]

Right now you are REQUIRED to wait a minimum of 6 RL months before you can even attempt to get an NPC guard that won't even follow around as a commoner. That is if you hit the ground running from day one of your character being accepted and actually succeed at every level of the system with zero failures.

You are talking about putting in a system that lets commoners hire NPC guards that will actually follow them around (infinitely more useful/powerful) and all they have to do is grind coins into their bank account as fast as possible to get access to them.

This is laughable.

For argument's sake, let's take the cost of 2,000 coins that was proposed. I agree, 2,000 coins a year is a pretty good IC salary for an NPC guard. IC'ly, this makes sense.

If you price them at 2,000 coins a year, I will have an NPC guard following around my merchant PC within five RL days of me being in game and I won't even have to try very hard.

That is of course silly.

If you price them at 5,000 coins a year, I will have my own NPC guard in around two RL weeks of my PC existing. I won't even have to try very hard, especially if I am Merchant Guild.

5,000 coins a year is pretty IC'ly ridiculous though in terms of "employee pay".

In order to keep an NPC guard that follows me out of my hands for 6 RL months (the current mandatory wait at minimum on an even less useful guard) you would have to price them in the tens of thousands of coins an IC year.

This is stupid.

I would rather just see the way NPC guards for the current system are handled changed to make them less useless.

[Dresan]

I would rather just see the way NPC guards for the current system are handled changed to make them less useless.

I can agree to this, perhaps someone who can hire a shopkeeper and hawker should be able to hire a guard for themselves. Maybe templar willing to cut deals with a certain slaver house to provide useful servant/guard(?) for the right amount of 'taxes'

[Armaddict]

I do, in reality, feel like this should be left for PC's.

But only because I've tried at least ten times to have a lone mercenary or small group of mercenaries who offered just this sort of service.  This feels like a job for city-based mercenaries, who don't even leave the city.  I think there should be little rag-tag bands like this scraping by all over the place.

We have, however, a quality-assured mercenary band.  But the idea of monopolizing mercenary work (which they do) is incredibly o.O to me.

In any case.  Keep asking PC's, because I very much doubt this will be implemented until the player-created clan process is actually evaluated to make it more practical.  You might just run into a few that are willing to set up a deal, and then your concern will be whether they can succeed or not.

[Desertman]

I do, in reality, feel like this should be left for PC's.

But only because I've tried at least ten times to have a lone mercenary or small group of mercenaries who offered just this sort of service.  This feels like a job for city-based mercenaries, who don't even leave the city.  I think there should be little rag-tag bands like this scraping by all over the place.

We have, however, a quality-assured mercenary band.  But the idea of monopolizing mercenary work (which they do) is incredibly o.O to me.

In any case.  Keep asking PC's, because I very much doubt this will be implemented until the player-created clan process is actually evaluated to make it more practical.  You might just run into a few that are willing to set up a deal, and then your concern will be whether they can succeed or not.

Pretty much every single PC to PC marketable service or good that would be profitable in any way on a meaningful level is already monopolized by a "Too Big To Fail" entity on some level.

This doesn't mean you can't make your own small little bands that also do those things. What it does mean is you will only be allowed to continue to do them so long as staff decides to allow you to since staff controls the virtual world that already has your trade/service/good monopolized.

[Case]

I like socially powerfully people having the option - GMH, MMH, upperclass Aides. That's about it. It's not about the cost per year. If they're MMH or GMH, assume they're living on the House premises, and the Family demands you justify the use of space to them at 10k per year or whatever. For Templarate Aides or Noble Aides, if there is a significant reason to protect them (so they're not some fighter dude in armor as an Aide), then why not allow it at some cost?

While I like PCs doing a lot of things, playing a bodyguard fucking sucks. Straight up.

[Dresan]

Pretty much every single PC to PC marketable service or good that would be profitable in any way on a meaningful level is already monopolized by a "Too Big To Fail" entity on some level.

This doesn't mean you can't make your own small little bands that also do those things. What it does mean is you will only be allowed to continue to do them so long as staff decides to allow you to since staff controls the virtual world that already has your trade/service/good monopolized.

This is such a damn good point that it deserves its own fucking thread, not really only staff though, Players in clans also have a hand in that,  not sure how staff ever expects anyone to start their own business and become a small house when you can't sell an breastplate or shirt, or anything without pissing someone off.

[Desertman]

I like socially powerfully people having the option - GMH, MMH, upperclass Aides. That's about it. It's not about the cost per year. If they're MMH or GMH, assume they're living on the House premises, and the Family demands you justify the use of space to them at 10k per year or whatever. For Templarate Aides or Noble Aides, if there is a significant reason to protect them (so they're not some fighter dude in armor as an Aide), then why not allow it at some cost?

While I like PCs doing a lot of things, playing a bodyguard fucking sucks. Straight up.

I agree with this with the exception of Templar's and Noble's aides.

Getting that job is really not an accomplishment in any way. You can land that job pretty easily in less than a day played if you put forth just a *tiny amount of effort. (Seen it done dozens of times.)

*It helps if you are leggy, buxom, sultry, or chiseled.

[Lizzie]

In certain situations, Senior Aides, Noble House Advisors, etc. - can be granted temporary use of Clan NPC guards. It's not common though. What it amounts to is a combination of "value of the House's property" and the prestige that goes along with having the guard at all.

Having your own personal guard is a matter of prestige AND value. You could be worth half the Nenuk's estate, but if you're Amos the Rich Nobody, you're not going to get your own personal guard - NPC or PC, without drawing attention from the templars, the nobles, and the GMH employees who have guards. And of the high ranking aides who do not have guards. That isn't the kind of attention that will help your character. It's the kind of attention that will get your NPC guard executed, and you not long after.

[Dresan]

I'm okay with people in clans getting things for free, without work or effort but there shouldn't be anything given to clans members that indies can't earn, work for or acquire.

Again, solo hunters in the wastes isn't the only indie role. Its those indies that play the bandits, villans, the behind the scene manipulators.  They can generate a lot of interesting content for the game by the sheer fact they need to earn everything they have and everything that is given to clanned members for free.


Also if you have sid, you can hire a guard. Its just hiring a PC guard to watch you way someone quietly for 20 minutes is boring. Its shouldn't be made into an city elitist thing.  

[fourTwenty]

Let's look at this from an RP perspective though. We know getting ganked while sitting in your apartment is a possibility. But is this OOC knowledge or IC knowledge? I would think most PCs would feel at least relatively safe in their own apartment. Also, its Zalanthas, rich Indy merchants should probably be constantly in fear of their lives. You got lots of coin and don't have the backing of a GMH. I feel like those dudes should be getting ganked on the reg. I mean, you wouldn't want to drive your brand new caddy through the wrong hood with no connections. Money makes you a target.

In my opinion on this matter, I say hire a PC. You probably shouldn't be idling for long periods of time or spamcrafting anyway. So if you are employing good RP while you go about your business it shouldn't be too boring for whoever is guarding you. Also, this should be fairly easy to work out with the Byn. They can make sure somebody's almost always guarding you, even if its not the same PC all the time.

[Dresan]

Having someone break into your house to rob and kill you is a fear that is quite common in RL and should probably be even more common in the game. You know if people fear merchants locked in their rooms spam-crafting why not make the firepit in the gaj a tiny bit more crafter friendly? Like adding a couple benches around the pit, where crafters can work? That way the only real use for apartments will be mud-sex and quick storage.(even more so than it iis now i guess)

Again its not like someone can't find ways to make it extremely difficult for people to kill them. If anything a NPC guard will only give people a false sense of safety.

[Lizzie]

Dresan - when you choose to play an independent character, or choose to play a character in such a way that no clan would want to hire him - you are rejecting clan life and all the perks that go with it.

You're saying, "I don't want free food, free water, free shelter, a place that's more or less impervious to outsiders getting in so I can craft or spar or whatever I do, and I don't want a clan guard at my beck and call. I want to be....independent of all that."

You can earn your way into a player clan situation, where you'd have a stationary door guard to keep watch over you while you're inside, for hours on end, idling away doing nothing.

If your independent wants what the clans have, he'll have to join a clan. That's one of the benefits that makes joining a clan desireable. If anyone with sids could buy themselves a guard for a year, it'd render that particular clan benefit - no longer a benefit. How about after we give you a guard, we let you have your own personal cook, so that you never have to eat charred food or stock up on travel cakes or worry about rotting steaks in your backpack? Because, y'know, you should be able to earn anything clans get.

No Dresan, you can't earn anything that clans get, as an independent. Clanned people are the haves. You want to be one of the have-nots. You can become a have or you can "want" to be one, and not be one. You could even play an independent that resents the clans for having what they have, and you're not invited to join their party and share in the abundance. That might be a great focus for a dwarf: to become a noble with his own guard, wearing silks, having minions, an estate, and a vote in the Senate.

[Dresan]

Lizzie just remember those clan jobs are supposed to be rare, only for the best of the best. Not everyone is supposed to get one of those jobs, there aren't supposed to be people running around trying to hire.  The majority of people are independants. Some more successful than others. Just remember right now the choice you are talking about is an OOC one. ICly its supposed to be the other way around, but OOC if you are playing an indie, you are have to put some effort to get anywhere.

Right now though, you join effortless and stay in the clan effortless. These clans have already won the game, they can't fail in a way that impacts anyone, you can't fuck up in a way that will impact the organization as a whole. It is because of the OOC effort someone has to doto get to the top as an independant, that I think there should be systems in place to get to the top. Unliked clanned members there is often no second chance, and again the mere fact they need to put in all this effort generates so much content for the game.  This is already outlined in the player clanned system, I just think it could use a few tweaks, like adding a personal guard. Again if you can hire shopkeeper, you should be able to hire your own personal guard.

So until joining a clan actually requires some effort to be part of, yes lizzie I think idependants who actually need to work and RP for ever little thing that they get, should have a way to get pretty high up the food chain.  The world might hate indies because they are potential competition and not one of the people who won armageddon yet like the clans, but OOCly we shouldn't. They are roles where if you don't put any actually time, work and effort, no one will care if you disapear.

[Refugee]

I believe that being an independent in this game is much more rewarding in many ways than being in a clan.  Pretty much in all ways besides plot.

Clans are important to the game and provide the texture and structure that make it what it is.  You give up a lot to be in a clan, really.  Particularly in the areas of finance and freedom to play. 

I think that there doesn't need to be anything else that makes playing an independent preferable to joining a clan.  I think there need to be more things that make playing in a clan a desirable choice.

There's been one time recently where being able to check out an NPC would've been great for me, but it's never really been an issue otherwise.  Still, it would've been cool!

[Desertman]

I think idependants who actually need to work and RP for ever little thing that they get, should have a way to get pretty high up the food chain.  

You can already do this. Not only can you do it, there is an exact list of exactly what you have to do in order to put yourself on par with coded clans if you are an independent.

You are asking for something that is spelled out step by step for you already in every way. There isn't even any guess work.

It is just really fucking hard.

[wizturbo]

I agree with this with the exception of Templar's and Noble's aides.

Getting that job is really not an accomplishment in any way. You can land that job pretty easily in less than a day played if you put forth just a *tiny amount of effort. (Seen it done dozens of times.)

While they may have the same title "aide" there are significantly different levels of seniority.  Some aides are trusted with 50,000 worth of assets without a second thought, have served their House for 10+ years, and are generally considered valued assets.  Aides such as these are worth protecting, and there should be a way to do so if the highborn wants to pay for it.

[Desertman]

I agree with this with the exception of Templar's and Noble's aides.

Getting that job is really not an accomplishment in any way. You can land that job pretty easily in less than a day played if you put forth just a *tiny amount of effort. (Seen it done dozens of times.)

While they may have the same title "aide" there are significantly different levels of seniority.  Some aides are trusted with 50,000 worth of assets without a second thought, have served their House for 10+ years, and are generally considered valued assets.  Aides such as these are worth protecting, and there should be a way to do so if the highborn wants to pay for it.

On the rare occasion one of these types of aides comes around the Templar/Noble can submit a request up the chain in their House to see if the House agrees with them. If they do, they will get a guard, if they don't, then the House (staff) has determined this aide hasn't earned it.

[Dresan]

Some thoughts.

First of all let me just say I see value in the clans OOCly, even in their current form. They are boring to me, because they already won, they exist without much visible consequence making them static. However this sentiment is not limited to clans, sorcerer kings, allanak, most of these places seem a bit static and stagnant because they have become so utterly powerful, Again, this isn't the thigns themselves in how they work in game but its concept, over the years people have built them up to a silly level virtually. With clans though to make matter worse, despite supposedly having insane contracts with every major city...they still find time to shit on the lone indie merchant. I wish they had something better to focus on but slim pickings I guess.

I like to join clans mostly when my time is limited but I'm still looking for some scheduled fun, they provide structure and stability when play times aren't the best. And some people love them. Thats fine.

Lastly my point from before was that anything that a clanned member can earn, a indie should have access too in one way or another, basically I don't agree for guards for elite clan members only. I barely agree to guards for certain people following that system. You shouldn't need to start your own business, just pay your taxes do your thing, and get your guard if you want. It shouldn't be some magickal special thing, it should be common if you want to pay for it. Again, you can find players to do it, just often a boring job to do and I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time with that, but I guess other people have more time to burn than me.

[Riev]

I think in the end, the argument is that this situation just wouldn't work out. Not logistically, not economically, and wouldn't make enough sense in the game world to be worth it.

I LOVE the idea of more intra-city conflict, and have for years advocated for less-stringent crimcode (or at least less NPCs), but until that happens there honestly isn't much reason to hire a guard, NPC or otherwise, except as a status symbol.

If you REALLY need something to spend your coins on, start the games first Minor Merchant House that deals ONLY in high-value gems as a trading commodity. Not for design, most sales end up at Kadius, but trading diamonds for goods and services. Rubies for writs from Templars. etc etc. But being able to "purchase" instant status doesn't fit, even if I'd love to do it on every PC ever.