Brawl Warning (Hit, not Kill, not Kick, not Bash, not nothing but Hit)

[WanderingOoze]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

[fourTwenty]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

[Synthesis]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

You could kick an NPC down to partially wounded, then hide, backstab it in wounded condition, and get the no-crim-flag instakill, in broad daylight, with minimal effort.

[nauta]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?

The problem here would be

(1) I've seen people in the middle of a brawl use 'kick' because, you know, it does make sense.  You hit the guy.  Then you kick the gu--- omidrovmotherfuckouchouchouchbeep.

(2) There are other commands that people might appeal too in the mistaken assumption that it's fine: bash, kill, etc.

The no-code solution (a little OOC at the end of the room description)I think would be the easiest and quickest, but it would still rely on user error, although I'd think it would catch every newbie (habitual 'kill' people would still be buggered by it).  I also thought about it and MOST brawls I've seen there's a little bit of an 'ooc use HIT not KILL d00d' anyway, so the immersion-breaking of an ooc message in the room main description would be miles better than the immersion breaking of the ooc command during a brawl.

A code solution would be more elegant and more complete, but also, like, more time, obvs.

[Armaddict]

Since brawl code went in, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 people die over brawling mishaps over the course of years.  None of them have been after the dichotomous commands of hit/kill was fixed.  So if this is still happening, that's very unfortunate, but I'm really unsure of how much more 'prevention' needs to be put in place.  At a certain point, it becomes a high degree of hand-holding that is largely unnecessary.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

While I agree with the sentiment, as a player I have to say I like how it is currently.  I do like the crimflag thread, particularly the idea of reducing soldier presence, but I don't picture Allanak in particular as a bunch of people just out beating the shit out of each other in the streets, either.  That's just...kind of a weird mentality, where so much of the game is completely free of such constraints.  And yet in those places free of constraints, we have constant discussions on how ridiculous it is that people will jump so quickly to violence.

Yet in a brawl thread we talk about wanting to be able to beat the snot out of people and mug them.  The opportunities for violence are incredibly widespread in the game, and there is one semi-challenging scenario where there is a third party you have to worry about.  Beat the scenario, don't try and remove it.

I remember when the alleys were first put in, and you actually had to worry about muggers running out of them and subduing you to drag you in.  That went away, I guess, because you had to plan it out.  We should just...make it so I can do things however I want, instead, no matter where in the city I am.

Allanak is a rough place.  But I don't think dumb, rampant fistfighting enhances it in any way.  Edit:  Yes, I'm saying you can get the same effect as you're looking for if you're willing to actually put any degree of effort into it.

[WanderingOoze]

Planning it out via sneaky/clever means Is not at all the same effect as a hothead, just blowing his top and decking someone in the
Heat of the moment for insulting him. ITS quite different. But, as for the arguments against my ideas, I can see the possibilities for abuse.
I guess I just had too much confidence in the playerbase still to think that everyone would
Just twink out and turn allanak into one big unarmed murderous riot, just because it becomes
Technically possible.   Glad I was set straight.

[Asanadas]

The brawl allowance is an invisible object dropped in the room, I figure. "Hit" checks for the object. If we wanted to stop kicks and bashes and disarms and whatnot, they too would have to check for the brawl object and then have responses to it.

For sanity reasons, making such a "simple" command like kill check for the brawl object would leave bad tastes in the design philosophy I've gathered worked into Arm-code. The only thing I can say is, tell people in ooc help brawl and only only only to hit.

[fourTwenty]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

You could kick an NPC down to partially wounded, then hide, backstab it in wounded condition, and get the no-crim-flag instakill, in broad daylight, with minimal effort.

That person would be a twink. And hopefully have the staff rain fire on his head. Also, I had no idea there even was a no crim-flag instakill.

[Synthesis]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

You could kick an NPC down to partially wounded, then hide, backstab it in wounded condition, and get the no-crim-flag instakill, in broad daylight, with minimal effort.

That person would be a twink. And hopefully have the staff rain fire on his head. Also, I had no idea there even was a no crim-flag instakill.

Backstab is an excellent method of attack if one's presence ought to be
unnoticed by soldiers of city-states. (Of course, any ensuing fight can
attract attention.)

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Is it bad that I've murdered several people in the middle of the Gaj on purpose?

I think this would be best done as some kind of "pacifism" flag you could turn on that doesn't allow you to kill/kick/bash/disarm/backstab/throw/shoot or otherwise initiate combat.

It would work sort of like mercy:

>kill amos
Showing pacifism, you withhold your attack.

>pacifism off
>kill amos
You attack the tall, muscular man!

You can toggle it on for bar fights, then forget to turn it off when you go out hunting the next day! Note, that it wouldn't be the same as nosave combat, you would still defend and attack back if attacked, you just wouldn't initiate while the flag is active.

This would work everywhere, for all sorts of things, not just brawling. (Though that would be 90% of its intended use.)

[Gunnerblaster]

I've had a personal well-loved character die due during a relatively "fun" bout of bar-room brawling. Everyone's having a laugh and enjoying themselves and one of the players I'm brawling with (newish) decides to 'kick' at my character because they saw my brawl echo to the effect of using my leg to trip someone. From fun, life-enjoying brawl to bloodbath, in a moment. Of course, this happened in a code-broken area that receives 100% no Staff assistance for their own broken code where your best response will be, "Herp-derp, it's working as intended."

Then I've also seen many other characters die to the same folly, as well.

The only way to circumvent getting MYSELF killed in a situation where someone kicks at ME is to have nosave_combat engaged.

Still, I wish there would be a kick-warning in all bar/taverns that would make it very clear that attempting to kick a player in that area would initiate actual combat - With all it's associated consequences.

[JackGibbons]

I've had a personal well-loved character die due during a relatively "fun" bout of bar-room brawling. Everyone's having a laugh and enjoying themselves and one of the players I'm brawling with (newish) decides to 'kick' at my character because they saw my brawl echo to the effect of using my leg to trip someone. From fun, life-enjoying brawl to bloodbath, in a moment. Of course, this happened in a code-broken area that receives 100% no Staff assistance for their own broken code where your best response will be, "Herp-derp, it's working as intended."

Then I've also seen many other characters die to the same folly, as well.

The only way to circumvent getting MYSELF killed in a situation where someone kicks at ME is to have nosave_combat engaged.

Still, I wish there would be a kick-warning in all bar/taverns that would make it very clear that attempting to kick a player in that area would initiate actual combat - With all it's associated consequences.

It seems I misunderstood RGS earlier. I thought he was saying that as long as you didn't initiate combat, you're not a criminal, so no one will try to subdue/fight you. But it sounds like Gunnerblaster's experience is that even if you did not start the fight, you are considered a criminal just for being in one? So if I understand correctly, the safe plan is to always have nosave combat on when you're in the more guard-y parts of the city, and only turn it off where the threat of someone harming you from you not reacting fast enough to swing back is considered worse than the threat of guard ganking.

[RogueGunslinger]

He's talking about Luirs, where the code functions differently(terribly).

[Gunnerblaster]

In the scenario in which I described, the crim-code specifically targets those who 'hit' at someone.

Example:
Player A kicks at you. <--- Player A would be crim-flagged at this moment.
Player A hits at you.
You (Player B) hit at Player A. <--- Although an automatic response to being attacked, your "counter attack" would then crim-flag you, as well.

[Asanadas]

Yeah, that was a problem with Luir's crim-code. It's since been fixed, I believe.

Also, don't brawl NPCs, because then you get crim-flagged and die. And don't brawl animated NPCs as an AoD soldier, because then they get crim-flagged and die. Wonders of the code. 

[Nergal]

I just tested that scenario in an imm room set with the Luir's crimcode and only Player A gets crimflagged. Player B is innocently defending themselves.

[Asanadas]

Thanks for the nail in the coffin, Nergal. There's a few ways that the crime-code methods in Luir's could be improved, but at least everything sort of makes sense with that bug out of the way. 

[JackGibbons]

Okay, thanks for clarifying folks. Sounds like I'm fine without having to use nosave combat and self-defense is acceptable without HG soldier 3 second mantis heads.