Brawl Warning (Hit, not Kill, not Kick, not Bash, not nothing but Hit)

[nauta]

In order to brawl, you need to use 'hit', and any other combat-initiating command will bring an almost certain death upon your head.  KICK is perhaps the most obvious offender here.

I'm sure it's been asked before, but I've seen enough of these -- and it's really hard to RP around just like lemming falls --- that I thought I'd kick it up top (pun intended). 

Hopefully, it's an easy fix.  Two ideas for implementation:

1. (Code solution.) One could implement a warning in certain rooms that are brawl friendly when one types in a combat initiating command, e.g., "Are you sure you want to kill|kick|bash|disarm here?  Your death will literally be brutal and swift.  Use 'hit' to engage in a brawl."  (The problem with this is that sometimes you actually do want to initiate combat, and so the code would be complicated.)

2. (No-code solution.) Simply add to the room desc of brawl-friendly rooms something like: "OOC: You may brawl in this room with the 'hit' command.  Other commands will bring your certain death.  See HELP BRAWL."  (The problem with this is that OOC messages -- which are in some rooms or on some NPCs -- are a bit immersion breaking.)

Any other solutions?

[JackGibbons]

I don't know criminal code and how it works.

Doesn't 'Not resisting arrest' just mean you get subdued and drug to a jail?

While not directly solving your problem, could a player at least prevent THEMSELVES from being code-nuked if their opponent uses 'KICK' by remembering to 'nosave combat' at the start of a brawl? Would the fact that they are merely defending in a fight instead of swinging back save them from the enforcer NPC attacks?

Sorry it's a little off topic: I can't think of better options for your main idea, but if my understanding is correct, at least we can add the additional tip to defend yourself against someone ELSE's lemmingness. Just remember to put nosave combat back on when you leave.

[Saellyn]

I don't know criminal code and how it works.

Doesn't 'Not resisting arrest' just mean you get subdued and drug to a jail?

While not directly solving your problem, could a player at least prevent THEMSELVES from being code-nuked if their opponent uses 'KICK' by remembering to 'nosave combat' at the start of a brawl? Would the fact that they are merely defending in a fight instead of swinging back save them from the enforcer NPC attacks?

Sorry it's a little off topic: I can't think of better options for your main idea, but if my understanding is correct, at least we can add the additional tip to defend yourself against someone ELSE's lemmingness. Just remember to put nosave combat back on when you leave.

Mid combat, "not reisisting arrest" means fuck all. You get roflstomped the moment they can't subdue you, and you can't subdue mid-combat, so you get roflstomped.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't know criminal code and how it works.

Doesn't 'Not resisting arrest' just mean you get subdued and drug to a jail?

While not directly solving your problem, could a player at least prevent THEMSELVES from being code-nuked if their opponent uses 'KICK' by remembering to 'nosave combat' at the start of a brawl? Would the fact that they are merely defending in a fight instead of swinging back save them from the enforcer NPC attacks?

Sorry it's a little off topic: I can't think of better options for your main idea, but if my understanding is correct, at least we can add the additional tip to defend yourself against someone ELSE's lemmingness. Just remember to put nosave combat back on when you leave.

Resisting arrest doesn't work when you're in middle of combat, so the NPC's just attack. You can flee, and then reset no-save arrest(because it turns off after fleeing I believe).

The person being attacked does not get crim-flaged and attacked by NPC soldiers.

I really like the idea of [Are you sure you want to kill Amos, and not HIT him for a brawl? doing this will cause soldiers to attack you, type 'Kill amos now' if not] type warning when you use kill in a tavern.

[Asmoth]

I don't know criminal code and how it works.

Doesn't 'Not resisting arrest' just mean you get subdued and drug to a jail?

While not directly solving your problem, could a player at least prevent THEMSELVES from being code-nuked if their opponent uses 'KICK' by remembering to 'nosave combat' at the start of a brawl? Would the fact that they are merely defending in a fight instead of swinging back save them from the enforcer NPC attacks?

Sorry it's a little off topic: I can't think of better options for your main idea, but if my understanding is correct, at least we can add the additional tip to defend yourself against someone ELSE's lemmingness. Just remember to put nosave combat back on when you leave.

Mid combat, "not reisisting arrest" means fuck all. You get roflstomped the moment they can't subdue you, and you can't subdue mid-combat, so you get roflstomped.

Agreed, I made a criminal who died first day because I thought turning off nosave would help me.

Noticed I'm getting sliced to death, surrendered, they chopped my head off.

[JackGibbons]

Thanks, guys. Never been in that situation before. Also seems my suggestion is pointless since the defender is already safe from being hit by NPC guards even if they're swinging back.

I've heard some people say to use nosave combat in Luirs, though. Does their guard system work differently or something?

[Asmoth]

Thanks, guys. Never been in that situation before. Also seems my suggestion is pointless since the defender is already safe from being hit by NPC guards even if they're swinging back.

I've heard some people say to use nosave combat in Luirs, though. Does their guard system work differently or something?

And a criminal can be openly attacked by anyone (unless they finally changed this) I took out one of my enemies once by putting spice in his bag and following him into the city then finishing him with the half giant soldier.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've heard some people say to use nosave combat in Luirs, though. Does their guard system work differently or something?

This is true. Luirs functions differently. (yo staff wtf is up with that?)

And a criminal can be openly attacked by anyone (unless they finally changed this) I took out one of my enemies once by putting spice in his bag and following him into the city then finishing him with the half giant soldier.

Dude I hope that is a "when I was young and dumb" type of story. It sounds horribly meta and twinkish.

Guards shouldn't be attacking people after a search(yo staff wtf is up with that?). You using this to help assist in a kill is based entirely on OOC knowledge.

[Asmoth]

I've heard some people say to use nosave combat in Luirs, though. Does their guard system work differently or something?

This is true. Luirs functions differently. (yo staff wtf is up with that?)

And a criminal can be openly attacked by anyone (unless they finally changed this) I took out one of my enemies once by putting spice in his bag and following him into the city then finishing him with the half giant soldier.

Dude I hope that is a "when I was young and dumb" type of story. It sounds horribly meta and twinkish.

Guards shouldn't be attacking people after a search(yo staff wtf is up with that?). You using this to help assist in a kill is based entirely on OOC knowledge.

It was IC.  I know that the guards check for spice, I put spice in your bag to get them to go apeshit on you.  You walk in carrying that bag, ding😉

[RogueGunslinger]

The guards check for spice. It is in no way IC that the guards murder-fuck everyone who breaks the smallest law. They should be grabbing people and taking them to jail. The only reason you knew to do this was a quirk of OOC code.

[fourTwenty]

I've never actually done that but I've thought about it. I don't agree with it being OOC knowledge. I think at this point if you're from 'Nak you would know that walking through the gates with spice is grounds to get skullfucked into the sand.

[Asmoth]

The guards check for spice. It is in no way IC that the guards murder-fuck everyone who breaks the smallest law. They should be grabbing people and taking them to jail. The only reason you knew to do this was a quirk of OOC code.

Nooo, I knew me and this criminal character both had nosave arrest off.

I also knew that I couldn't take him alone.  So if anything, I guess I did know he would automatically fight the guards subdue and used that knowledge to my benefit.

Was that you all those years ago?

[nauta]

Yeah, so this is all a derail, guys!  Thanks.

[RogueGunslinger]

Shit-mugging someone is IC too then, I guess?

Nooo, I knew me and this criminal character both had nosave arrest off.

More OOC knowledge...

Was that you all those years ago?

No.

[Asmoth]

Shit-mugging someone is IC too then, I guess?

Yup, just like I used to poison the gem to count d elf corpses and get fat loot is ic.

[RogueGunslinger]

Shit-mugging someone is IC too then, I guess?

Yup, just like I used to poison the gem to count d elf corpses and get fat loot is ic.

Those are in no way similar, the fact that you think someone would realistically drink a mug of shit without knowing is mind-boggling.

[Asmoth]

Shit-mugging someone is IC too then, I guess?

Yup, just like I used to poison the gem to count d elf corpses and get fat loot is ic.

Those are in no way similar, the fact that you think someone would realistically drink a mug of shit without knowing is mind-boggling.

Look in mug
Is a command they can use.
Sip mug is a command they can use.

Shit mug me and I'll lol and go, well I shoulda sipped.

[RogueGunslinger]

Code Select Expand

l in mug

>it's full of brown liquid.

sniff mug

That smells like nothing.

sip mug

>whoops that was a mistake!


Look, it's pretty clear you think anything that is possible with code is A-OK. Lets just agree to disagree.

[Saellyn]

So anyways, I will say that many eons ago I was the victim of kicking someone in a bar in Tuluk and was lucky there were no soldiers there. That said, I think it might do for new players to have a brawling warning of some kind because I see lots of people die to "kill man" in bars.

p.s. take your OOC meta abuse to another thread.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure Arm/Diku actually has the capability for coded prompt-response ("Are you sure?") sort of dialog in-game.  The most stateful command set I can think of is offer/barter.

[RogueGunslinger]

The shield wall does this so you don't fall off part of it. Maybe that's something different?

[Refugee]

Pretty good idea.

[JackGibbons]

I'm not sure Arm/Diku actually has the capability for coded prompt-response ("Are you sure?") sort of dialog in-game.  The most stateful command set I can think of is offer/barter.

That is trickier, however the way we did it on Shadows of Isildur, which is a Diku derivative by way of HL, was like this:


a 'group' in SOI is the list of all the people who are following you. We have the same thing here, except no handy command to show the current members. As a protection against shit like "kill beetle", you can't do "kill X" where X would map to a member of your group. If you REALLY wanted to, you'd have to do "kill X!" with that exclamation mark.

So rather than making a prompt, it just checks for the ! as one of the arguments to the command and just spits out a message to you saying You have to use the ! to initiate combat against a member of your group to you as needed.

Then you up arrow and add !

So yeah rather than remembering your previous command and starting a whole prompt system, it ties it to the individual command with a confirmation flag.

[CodeMaster]

I'm not sure Arm/Diku actually has the capability for coded prompt-response ("Are you sure?") sort of dialog in-game.  The most stateful command set I can think of is offer/barter.

It does and already exists in the game in certain locations.

[edit: that's not to say the coders don't have higher priorities, but I like the idea since it's a real gotcha]

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I lost a cool character to this. The problem is, with me, I do it completely by accident, because my bynner or whatever is used to tying 'kill.'

[WanderingOoze]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

[fourTwenty]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

[Synthesis]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

You could kick an NPC down to partially wounded, then hide, backstab it in wounded condition, and get the no-crim-flag instakill, in broad daylight, with minimal effort.

[nauta]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?

The problem here would be

(1) I've seen people in the middle of a brawl use 'kick' because, you know, it does make sense.  You hit the guy.  Then you kick the gu--- omidrovmotherfuckouchouchouchbeep.

(2) There are other commands that people might appeal too in the mistaken assumption that it's fine: bash, kill, etc.

The no-code solution (a little OOC at the end of the room description)I think would be the easiest and quickest, but it would still rely on user error, although I'd think it would catch every newbie (habitual 'kill' people would still be buggered by it).  I also thought about it and MOST brawls I've seen there's a little bit of an 'ooc use HIT not KILL d00d' anyway, so the immersion-breaking of an ooc message in the room main description would be miles better than the immersion breaking of the ooc command during a brawl.

A code solution would be more elegant and more complete, but also, like, more time, obvs.

[Armaddict]

Since brawl code went in, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 people die over brawling mishaps over the course of years.  None of them have been after the dichotomous commands of hit/kill was fixed.  So if this is still happening, that's very unfortunate, but I'm really unsure of how much more 'prevention' needs to be put in place.  At a certain point, it becomes a high degree of hand-holding that is largely unnecessary.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

While I agree with the sentiment, as a player I have to say I like how it is currently.  I do like the crimflag thread, particularly the idea of reducing soldier presence, but I don't picture Allanak in particular as a bunch of people just out beating the shit out of each other in the streets, either.  That's just...kind of a weird mentality, where so much of the game is completely free of such constraints.  And yet in those places free of constraints, we have constant discussions on how ridiculous it is that people will jump so quickly to violence.

Yet in a brawl thread we talk about wanting to be able to beat the snot out of people and mug them.  The opportunities for violence are incredibly widespread in the game, and there is one semi-challenging scenario where there is a third party you have to worry about.  Beat the scenario, don't try and remove it.

I remember when the alleys were first put in, and you actually had to worry about muggers running out of them and subduing you to drag you in.  That went away, I guess, because you had to plan it out.  We should just...make it so I can do things however I want, instead, no matter where in the city I am.

Allanak is a rough place.  But I don't think dumb, rampant fistfighting enhances it in any way.  Edit:  Yes, I'm saying you can get the same effect as you're looking for if you're willing to actually put any degree of effort into it.

[WanderingOoze]

Planning it out via sneaky/clever means Is not at all the same effect as a hothead, just blowing his top and decking someone in the
Heat of the moment for insulting him. ITS quite different. But, as for the arguments against my ideas, I can see the possibilities for abuse.
I guess I just had too much confidence in the playerbase still to think that everyone would
Just twink out and turn allanak into one big unarmed murderous riot, just because it becomes
Technically possible.   Glad I was set straight.

[Asanadas]

The brawl allowance is an invisible object dropped in the room, I figure. "Hit" checks for the object. If we wanted to stop kicks and bashes and disarms and whatnot, they too would have to check for the brawl object and then have responses to it.

For sanity reasons, making such a "simple" command like kill check for the brawl object would leave bad tastes in the design philosophy I've gathered worked into Arm-code. The only thing I can say is, tell people in ooc help brawl and only only only to hit.

[fourTwenty]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

You could kick an NPC down to partially wounded, then hide, backstab it in wounded condition, and get the no-crim-flag instakill, in broad daylight, with minimal effort.

That person would be a twink. And hopefully have the staff rain fire on his head. Also, I had no idea there even was a no crim-flag instakill.

[Synthesis]

They could always just make kick not initiate combat, couldn't they?
Or not crimflag people who are unarmed in general. Then,
Id be able to beat that mouthy breed into the dirt right on commonors way
Without getting instaganked.

So much this. Why in the fuck is a fistfight illegal? I swear Allanak is run like a particularly strict boarding school sometimes.

You could kick an NPC down to partially wounded, then hide, backstab it in wounded condition, and get the no-crim-flag instakill, in broad daylight, with minimal effort.

That person would be a twink. And hopefully have the staff rain fire on his head. Also, I had no idea there even was a no crim-flag instakill.

Backstab is an excellent method of attack if one's presence ought to be
unnoticed by soldiers of city-states. (Of course, any ensuing fight can
attract attention.)

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Is it bad that I've murdered several people in the middle of the Gaj on purpose?

I think this would be best done as some kind of "pacifism" flag you could turn on that doesn't allow you to kill/kick/bash/disarm/backstab/throw/shoot or otherwise initiate combat.

It would work sort of like mercy:

>kill amos
Showing pacifism, you withhold your attack.

>pacifism off
>kill amos
You attack the tall, muscular man!

You can toggle it on for bar fights, then forget to turn it off when you go out hunting the next day! Note, that it wouldn't be the same as nosave combat, you would still defend and attack back if attacked, you just wouldn't initiate while the flag is active.

This would work everywhere, for all sorts of things, not just brawling. (Though that would be 90% of its intended use.)

[Gunnerblaster]

I've had a personal well-loved character die due during a relatively "fun" bout of bar-room brawling. Everyone's having a laugh and enjoying themselves and one of the players I'm brawling with (newish) decides to 'kick' at my character because they saw my brawl echo to the effect of using my leg to trip someone. From fun, life-enjoying brawl to bloodbath, in a moment. Of course, this happened in a code-broken area that receives 100% no Staff assistance for their own broken code where your best response will be, "Herp-derp, it's working as intended."

Then I've also seen many other characters die to the same folly, as well.

The only way to circumvent getting MYSELF killed in a situation where someone kicks at ME is to have nosave_combat engaged.

Still, I wish there would be a kick-warning in all bar/taverns that would make it very clear that attempting to kick a player in that area would initiate actual combat - With all it's associated consequences.

[JackGibbons]

I've had a personal well-loved character die due during a relatively "fun" bout of bar-room brawling. Everyone's having a laugh and enjoying themselves and one of the players I'm brawling with (newish) decides to 'kick' at my character because they saw my brawl echo to the effect of using my leg to trip someone. From fun, life-enjoying brawl to bloodbath, in a moment. Of course, this happened in a code-broken area that receives 100% no Staff assistance for their own broken code where your best response will be, "Herp-derp, it's working as intended."

Then I've also seen many other characters die to the same folly, as well.

The only way to circumvent getting MYSELF killed in a situation where someone kicks at ME is to have nosave_combat engaged.

Still, I wish there would be a kick-warning in all bar/taverns that would make it very clear that attempting to kick a player in that area would initiate actual combat - With all it's associated consequences.

It seems I misunderstood RGS earlier. I thought he was saying that as long as you didn't initiate combat, you're not a criminal, so no one will try to subdue/fight you. But it sounds like Gunnerblaster's experience is that even if you did not start the fight, you are considered a criminal just for being in one? So if I understand correctly, the safe plan is to always have nosave combat on when you're in the more guard-y parts of the city, and only turn it off where the threat of someone harming you from you not reacting fast enough to swing back is considered worse than the threat of guard ganking.

[RogueGunslinger]

He's talking about Luirs, where the code functions differently(terribly).

[Gunnerblaster]

In the scenario in which I described, the crim-code specifically targets those who 'hit' at someone.

Example:
Player A kicks at you. <--- Player A would be crim-flagged at this moment.
Player A hits at you.
You (Player B) hit at Player A. <--- Although an automatic response to being attacked, your "counter attack" would then crim-flag you, as well.

[Asanadas]

Yeah, that was a problem with Luir's crim-code. It's since been fixed, I believe.

Also, don't brawl NPCs, because then you get crim-flagged and die. And don't brawl animated NPCs as an AoD soldier, because then they get crim-flagged and die. Wonders of the code. 

[Nergal]

I just tested that scenario in an imm room set with the Luir's crimcode and only Player A gets crimflagged. Player B is innocently defending themselves.

[Asanadas]

Thanks for the nail in the coffin, Nergal. There's a few ways that the crime-code methods in Luir's could be improved, but at least everything sort of makes sense with that bug out of the way. 

[JackGibbons]

Okay, thanks for clarifying folks. Sounds like I'm fine without having to use nosave combat and self-defense is acceptable without HG soldier 3 second mantis heads.