Witch Loving

[LauraMars]

Maybe you repeat them to someone you're teaching later ... Maybe those words last a few generations before the tide sweeps them away.

Not that it really matters, but I think the "weaves" and "horns" thing has been etched into the face of the game more permanently than a lot of stuff that tends to be washed away by death and change, since I've been hearing it since as far back as 2008.  (And yes, as MoF mentioned, from animated npcs as well.)

Horns is straight out of the magick help files isn't it?

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Magick%20Power

You're right. It is!

TIL

[LauraMars]

...the elemental temples have no rank structure...

...needs to be known, or the players will, in that vacuum create their own.

I dunno that this is a bad thing.  People can play a mentor figure to other gemmed mages if they like.  They can even organize some sort of loose structure of study in the Quarter. They might face IC consequences if those in power (templars etc) realize what's going on and disagree with the implementation, but...what's wrong with that?  I don't personally think this sort of roleplay is a bad thing.

I agree that more documentation about the history, IC "feel", and non-structure of the temples would be super nice though.

[Chettaman]

• More documentaion for the gemmed!

• The problem with teaching in this game is the players that don't actually do it, codedly and/or otherwise. And of course some people who play their roles don't /actually/ have knowledge of the thing they're teaching so I suggest something like, "they begin training" and then fade to the end of training.
and for training of magickal things like why this and why that was explained very well by Jave.

• mundanes who like witches, as I've noticed, sometimes have a reason. Sometimes they're lying through their teeth. Sometimes they don't have a reason. I've noticed plenty of witches reacting accordingly. Mostly with skepticism.

this guy /always/ comes up with new jargon, suckuhs.

[Jave]

I actually like the lack of codified guidance that exists in game surrounding magickal instruction though.

Agreed, except things like...

...the elemental temples have no rank structure...

...needs to be known, or the players will, in that vacuum create their own.

I agree that this could stand to be spelled out more clearly in the docs. I don't mind players banding together into small groups within the quarter and making some loose pecking order amongst themselves. Creating their own in the vacuum in that sense is fine ... ... but don't expect the game world at large to recognise it as legit. You are in effect, elementary school kids who have started a playground club. You're fine as long as you don't annoy the teachers and come in when recess is over. Trying to coerce other players to join your new union is likewise going to get you slapped around both on and IC and OOC level. IC because you're now trying to make an organisation the state has no interest in you making, OOC because your targeting of only gemmed with the magickal PC glow instead of also trying to lean on NPC's etc and working with us to get a reaction from the virtual world is a bit metagamey.

The temples are basically little more than boarding houses or a ghetto for the gemmed to be shunted away into.

... is not necessarily how the players of the gemmed view it, instead feeling that it's "their turf".  They can leave whenever they want.  Are you going to idly stroll through?  No chance, unless you're lost - then prepare for a welcome that might make the Rinth proud.  As an aside restricting gemmed from renting apartments outside the Quarter should probably be a thing.

It's how the players of the gemmed should view it in light of the game setting. Rinth'ing out on someone for being in the elementalist quarter is going to provoke a very strong reaction from the state, because the state has absolutely no interest in mages banding together and forming coalitions. They are powerful enough as individuals. It's a direct threat to the establishment if they start multiplying that power with numbers and group synergy. Not to say that a rinthi with a fresh gem around their neck would be a bad player for acting this way ... They're from the rinth and old habits die hard. But as a player ... they should not be surprised about the reaction they receive for their old habit.

I'd also like it if the gemmed weren't allowed to rent outside of that quarter, as a point of personal preference.

No worries about the derail. We it keeps up a bit longer I'll just split it off into its own thing.

[nauta]

I agree that more documentation about the history, IC "feel", and non-structure of the temples would be super nice though.

Annnnd we are back to how the last Witch Love thread ended.

+1 on whitt's -- he puts it well -- suggestion for at least some documentation.  Here's my take on it:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50043.msg912778.html#msg912778

Not too much documentation -- so emergent and organic jargon and things can thrive -- but enough so you don't have cases akin to: "It's dark in this room. No it's not. Yes it is. No it's... staff!  Is it dark in this room?"  (Except modulo with magicky things.)

Whitt's and Jave's thing about temple pecking orders is a case in point.  I remember being told there were 'elders' in the temples.  So I assumed there were elders in the temple, which my character would have know by looking around and seeing elders in the temple.  The fact that there AREN'T elders is something documentation could clarify.

That's different from coming down concrete on terms like 'horn' or 'voice' or (and I think some guidance is needed here) the qualia of magickal casting -- what it's like to cast a spell.  It's a fine balance between too much and too little, and I just think it's a little on the too little side right now -- documentationwise.

[Beethoven]

With my new gemmers, I always enjoy asking why power levels are called "horns." My favorite response was from a guy who seemed to be making up some silly justification on the spot because he didn't know and hadn't thought much about it. I enjoy the idea of the term being used even when most people (save maybe the Oash nobles) have no idea where it came from anymore.

[Desertman]

Yo man, you got any of that widespread literacy?
                             

[Jave]

Dude ... Make a thread 

[seidhr]

Why? I prefer that to spells, especially in the Temple settings. Helps disassociates Magick from Harry Potter Magic.

I am mostly being facetious, I just think it's kind of a weird term that's a euphemism for spells (while referencing the exact same thing). 

Personally I've always enjoyed it more when people talk about it in more abstract ways.  "See if you're able to call upon the sands to form an erdlu for you to ride to Luirs." vs. "Do you know the weave to create an erdlu for the Luirs trip?"

In a mundane context:  "Hey Amos, you any good at knockin' folks down to keep 'em from running away?" vs. "Yo Amos!  You any good at barshin'?"

I recognize it's a sort of necessary evil in some conversations - just a personal preference.

[Delirium]

I'd also like it if the gemmed weren't allowed to rent outside of that quarter, as a point of personal preference.

This, SO MUCH this. The only time my gemmed ever rented outside the Quarter is when she was literally ordered to temporarily do so by her boss. And we roleplayed the Nenyuki being none too happy about it, but what were they going to do, say no to a Templar?

Then, as soon as the air was clear, back to the gemmed quarter she went.

On the flip side of the coin, mundane burglars really, really should not be targeting the gemmed apartments.

That doesn't mean they'd be safe though, the gemmed have their own criminals to worry about.

[Patuk]

Something tells me there won't be a soldier feeling any sympathy for the burglar that gets blasted to smithereens trying to burgle a gemmer. Just what did they expect?

[Delirium]

It's not just the immediate, coded dangers (though they definitely exist). It's the very idea of anyone wanting stuff that's been touched by those unnatural weirdos.

[Lizzie]

I'd be happy if people stopped calling spells "weaves" as a first step.   

I wish new magickers were given some documentation on the basicks of magick.  Especially the gemmed who should have some Gem 101 instruction on what's going on with your new wrestched self beyond... Here's your gem.  Don't take it off.  Now get out of my sight.

It's been brought up before, but in the void of any real guidance player's of magickers need to explain "this, that, and the other things", like branching,  to each other somehow.  So you get "path", "weave", "horn", and "offering" because... that's what they heard someone else call it and it's not like anyone is telling them different or there's anyone to ask or anyone is ICly telling them it's not "X" it's "Y".   Oashi Mileage May Vary.

I actually like it that way. I can't stand referring to "horns" and "weaves" but don't begrudge someone else wanting to do so. I'm glad we aren't forced to do one or the other, and can simply RP out the discussion if/when anyone gives a shit enough to discuss it ICly.

[Patuk]

Yeah, yeah. I'm just stating that this problem has a very obvious solution.

[BadSkeelz]

I am mostly being facetious, I just think it's kind of a weird term that's a euphemism for spells (while referencing the exact same thing). 

Personally I've always enjoyed it more when people talk about it in more abstract ways. 

Your "good" examples sound strangely forced and contrived. Even if weave is a euphemism, I guess I just prefer to the straight-forward "Magick is a tool to be used" approach. Blame my time in the AoD. People talking about magick in the abstract make me just want to smack them in the mouth... which may not be a bad reaction to provoke in-character.

[Beethoven]

I think how a 'gicker talks about magick should depend on their culture and background.

[wizturbo]

OOC because your targeting of only gemmed with the magickal PC glow instead of also trying to lean on NPC's etc and working with us to get a reaction from the virtual world is a bit metagamey.

Based on the sizes of the Temples (number of beds, room descriptions) there is absolutely no reason to believe there is a large NPC or Virtual presence of Gemmed.  I've always played it that Gemmed are rare, and the fact that they have an entire Quarter dedicated to them has interesting implications...  Was their population larger in the past?  Is the extra real estate there to make that much extra 'quarantine' space?  Targeting PC's to join your little club seems completely reasonable to me based on this.

If you're saying that you'd like these groups to target NPCs, so NPCs can react with the culture you have envisioned for the Gemmed Quarter, I guess that makes sense, but the notion that there is much of a culture in the Gemmed Quarter is a bit of a contradiction to begin with.

[LauraMars]

A lot of the gemmed quarter is described as dilapidated and ruinous as well, with abandoned houses and rubble everywhere. Always made me wonder.

[Majikal]

A lot of the gemmed quarter is described as dilapidated and ruinous as well, with abandoned houses and rubble everywhere. Always made me wonder.

And holes blasted in the road all over from magickal experiments gone wrong. I love that the best.

[Vwest]

Dude ... Make a thread 

I'd post in it.

[Jave]

OOC because your targeting of only gemmed with the magickal PC glow instead of also trying to lean on NPC's etc and working with us to get a reaction from the virtual world is a bit metagamey.

Based on the sizes of the Temples (number of beds, room descriptions) there is absolutely no reason to believe there is a large NPC or Virtual presence of Gemmed.  I've always played it that Gemmed are rare, and the fact that they have an entire Quarter dedicated to them has interesting implications...  Was their population larger in the past?  Is the extra real estate there to make that much extra 'quarantine' space?  Targeting PC's to join your little club seems completely reasonable to me based on this.

If you're saying that you'd like these groups to target NPCs, so NPCs can react with the culture you have envisioned for the Gemmed Quarter, I guess that makes sense, but the notion that there is much of a culture in the Gemmed Quarter is a bit of a contradiction to begin with.

It kind of sounds like you're trying to posit that the PC gemmed of the city are a sizeable portion of the overall gemmed population, virtual, NPC, or otherwise. I'm preeeeety sure that's not accurate.

But even granting it for the sake of argument ... there are still more NPC gemmed in the elementalist quarter than PC gemmed at any given time. So yes, there's no reason not to target them for your clubhouse as well.

[whitt]

Based on the sizes of the Temples (number of beds, room descriptions) there is absolutely no reason to believe there is a large NPC or Virtual presence of Gemmed.  I've always played it that Gemmed are rare, and the fact that they have an entire Quarter dedicated to them has interesting implications...  

It kind of sounds like you're trying to posit that the PC gemmed of the city are a sizeable portion of the overall gemmed population, virtual, NPC, or otherwise. I'm preeeeety sure that's not accurate.

But even granting it for the sake of argument ... there are still more NPC gemmed in the elementalist quarter than PC gemmed at any given time. So yes, there's no reason not to target them for your clubhouse as well.

This goes back to the "base level of documentation" discussion.  There's no level-set of how many vNPC gemmed are around in the Quarter.  Is it something like 4vNPCs to every PC/non-virtual NPC Gemmed?  (a very small number) or more like 20vNPCs to every PC/non-virtual NPC Gemmed (a fairly noticeable number)  or are there several hundred vNPC gemmed moving about each temple from time to time?  In short, do we not notice the vNPC population because it's so sparse?  Or because it's so dense you just don't notice the forest for all the trees?

My personal experience is that the echoes would imply less than more, but it's a good question that would help inform proper respect for the vNPC population.

[Marauder Moe]

So from what I've seen of the new gemmed temples, my guess is they house somewhere between 30-100 permanent residents each.  Coded beds are not a valid count.  So that's 180-600 gemmed living in temples.

I don't know where the idea that most of the other buildings in the quarter are ruins.  Some sections certainly are, but most are just "buildings", and indeed many also are described with some signs of habitation.  Given the ratio of temple land space to other building land space, there could at least be be 4-5 times as many gemmed living outside the temples than in.

My gut says there's about 3000 gemmed living in Allanak.  That's a bit less than 1% of the population, a smaller demographic than all the racial abhumans except muls.

[Kol]

I remember reading the docs extensively wayyy back before I apped for my first 'gick.

I think I remember something along the lines of about 5% of the 'Nakki population is in that quarter, that means a couple thousand mages, although it's probably closer to Moe's estimation after wars, riots etc....

[Patuk]

5% seems crazy high. You could make good money with magic 'tests' on rich children.