Witch Loving

[Asmoth]

I have noticed there are quite a few people lately who are hanging out with witches, and no I don't mean oash as those guys sometimes have to.

This bothers me, unless they are all secret witches with a gemmer confidant.

I guess the only way to stop that is to start defaming them and making their lives horrible.

(Mostly joking, but where is that witch hatred/fear we are all supposed to have?)

PS. Or is it fine now to go make friends with a witch and say gimme use of your magickal powers!

[Desertman]

You should defame them and make their lives horrible.

Good luck doing that when the witches in question are backed by Oash and/or Templars.

I once had a staff-ran NPC ask my character in The Gaj why they weren't beating up a gemmer at the bar. (I was a mercenary type and it wouldn't be out of character. The NPC was also a mercenary type.)

I informed them, "Because they are backed by Oash, as most of the gemmed are, and fucking with them is the equivalent of fucking with a Oashi noble, because that's what will end up happening if I do.".

Oh....

That's as far as that conversation got.

Messing with the gemmed, or gemmed lovers is the same as spitting on a Oashi noble or a Templar MOST of the time.

That is why they don't get fucked with.

The gemmed liking you or having a reason to like you can sometimes give Oashi nobles or Templars a reason to also like you. So you want to gain their favor, not scorn them.

It is what it is. That is the game. Has been for many years.

[nauta]

Uh-oh!  Here we go again!  And we just had this thread which I thought ended with universal praise for the witch hating in town!  

My advice, as always, is that if you see repeated behaviour like that that defies belief or breaks immersion, a friendly player complaint -- or a heads up to staff in your next character report if the word 'complaint' scares you off -- doesn't hurt.   (Bear in mind you may only be seeing part of the picture.)

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost everyone (even Wizturbo's magickal faction) would be in agreement that we should play according to the documentation with respect to our fear and hatred of magick and magickers, and that if you play against documentation -- that is you play an exception to the rule -- this should be for a good reason and you should try to balance it out by playing to the documentation with respect to other things, e.g., elf hatred or whatever.

One thing that is sometimes important is the virtual world.  In my view, if you play against documentation (which is fine, provided a reason) you might want to include some reaction from the virtual world to reinforce to others (especially newbies) that what you are doing is contrary to the status quo -- e.g., include uneasy, uncomfortable, or even hostile looks from others at the bar if you buy that gemmed a drink.  Just thinking it or feeling it without some sort of outward sign might convince staff, but other players (especially newbies) won't know.

[Asmoth]

You should defame them and make their lives horrible.

Good luck doing that when the witches in question are backed by Oash and/or Templars.

I once had a staff-ran NPC ask my character in The Gaj why they weren't beating up a gemmer at the bar. (I was a mercenary type and it wouldn't be out of character. The NPC was also a mercenary type.)

I informed them, "Because they are backed by Oash, as most of the gemmed are, and fucking with them is the equivalent of fucking with a Oashi noble, because that's what will end up happening if I do.".

Oh....

That's as far as that conversation got.

Messing with the gemmed, or gemmed lovers is the same as spitting on a Oashi noble or a Templar MOST of the time.

That is why they don't get fucked with.

The gemmed liking you or having a reason to like you can sometimes give Oashi nobles or Templars a reason to also like you. So you want to gain their favor, not scorn them.

It is what it is. That is the game. Has been for many years.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing magickers, but I always was hesitant when someone would be cool foraging with me anywhere near them, or have long conversations with me at private tables.

I always assumed it was a scheme to get my gem for their collection of black gems...

But it seems like something has veered far off the documentation lately.

[Asmoth]

Uh-oh!  Here we go again!  And we just had this thread which I thought ended with universal praise for the witch hating in town! 

My advice, as always, is that if you see repeated behaviour like that that defies belief or breaks immersion, a friendly player complaint doesn't hurt.   (Bear in mind you may only be seeing part of the picture.)

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost everyone (even Wizturbo's magickal faction) would be in agreement that we should play according to the documentation with respect to our fear and hatred of magick and magickers, and that if you play against documentation -- that is you play an exception to the rule -- this should be for a good reason and you should try to balance it out by playing to the documentation with respect to other things, e.g., elf hatred or whatever.

One thing that is sometimes important is the virtual world.  In my view, if you play against documentation (which is fine, provided a reason) you might want to include some reaction from the virtual world to reinforce to others (especially newbies) that what you are doing is contrary to the status quo -- e.g., include uneasy, uncomfortable, or even hostile looks from others at the bar if you buy that gemmed a drink.

My only concern if you play against the grain of the fear for whatever manufsctured reason, then what's to stop everyone from suddenly coming to the rationalization that having a water witch around is a good thing?

Or that having someone who can make you invisible is a great thing?

The distortion goes on forever...

[CodeMaster]

One of the problems with not having a playerbase in the thousands is that we can observe little statistical blips like this (hey, I saw all three people at the Gaj buddying up with a mage) and mistake it for a larger trend.

I'm not saying feedback like this isn't occasionally warranted. But it wasn't much more than a week ago that someone else posted a global kudos to everyone for exhibiting the correct amount of mage hate.

[nauta]

My only concern if you play against the grain of the fear for whatever manufsctured reason, then what's to stop everyone from suddenly coming to the rationalization that having a water witch around is a good thing?

Or that having someone who can make you invisible is a great thing?

The distortion goes on forever...

Staff.  I'm not saying 'whine' to staff about it, but if staff isn't made aware of these situations, then they won't be able to send a friendly heads up to the player about it, and so steer them towards roleplaying appropriately in the world as it is.

(Moreover, while threads like this will continue to exist forever and ever ad infinitum, they tend to (a) veer towards vagueposting which is lame and (b) not really even address the problem is a tangible way.  What you want is to nudge the player in the right direction, and outside of OOC or staff, there's no real good way to do this.  That player might not even read the gdb!)

Also what CodeMaster said!

ETA: Also, with fear/hatred of magick in particular:

First, it is something that lies pretty deep down in the average Allanaki citizen (and most others, but that will vary depending on the culture).  Hence, if you plan to roll up a character with no fear of magick, you'd have to include that in the BACKGROUND, so that's one 'balance check' -- staff can reject that character concept from the get-go if you keep rolling up magicker lovers.

Second, If something happens to your character in-game that would justify your character's abandoning their deep-seated fear/hatred of magick, then I would think that would be BIO worthy, so you can at least point to it if you get challenged.

Third, I can't stress this enough: while some onus is on the karma player to do this, both parties really should keep a constant eye on the virtual world when your character behaves contrary to the status quo  -- it helps newbies, and it's also something you can point to if challenged.  It's not just other players characters that hate magickers!  (Indeed, as Dman suggested, often player characters have their hands tied if confronted with someone who steps all over the status quo/documentation.)

I remember a year ago someone rolled into the Gaj and started talking about how Tek was a total idiot.  The PCs in the Gaj (myself included) couldn't really do much codedly to the guy, although we did react.  Fortunately, staff animated Vennant in that case.

[frankjacoby]

There is always the good ol, 'If I mess with this witch and he finds me out in the sands' kind of common sense, so please, by all means, go fuck with the witch and continue that line of RP.  You will certainly find a nice mantis head at the end of your journey.

[Delirium]

I love playing mages, I love their place in the world, and I think the magick code is the absolute bees knees.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, somebody needs to keep those twisted freaks of nature in their place.

[Asmoth]

The trick with Mage killing is to go with the posse mentality, bring friends and use poison.

Ding dead mage

[Armaddict]

To be honest...I'm trying to modify the way I have my characters react to mages based off of feedback I get from these threads.

I will not be -uber- friendly.  But I'm trying to be more inclusive and giving them things to do when there is some sort of IC motivation, without turning into a mage lover.  If this results in a sway too far to the other direction, I apologize, but I'm kind of fiddling with how interactions go to prevent me from assuming the extreme needs to be present on every character I have (which is how I have been for years.)

I want the harshness on gemmed and mages to remain.  I want their leashes to be -tight-.  But I don't want them to not have fun, either (this is the understanding I've tried to have from previous posts on this, compared to how I envision the game world).

As far as D-man's post, I agree...and that is kind of on the Oashi nobles, to be honest.  I remember one from the past who was incredibly hard on his gemmed.  But he also gave them a lot of things to do, to make up for the idea for that he did -not- want them causing issues with the common people.  Has to be remembered that noble houses are supposed to be relatively popular with the populace compared to the Arm and Templarate.  They are the oppressors; nobility and their servants are the benefactors who do things that benefit the common man, as long as you don't disrespect them.  This is described fairly well in the relationship documentation between templars and nobles, because this is why templars need nobles.  They get far better results when nobility show the commoners honey than when the templarate throws vinegar at them.  Hence...I kind of think Oashi-backed mages should back off just a weeee bit from the 'But I'm Oashi and can do what I want' bit.

[BadSkeelz]

I just don't RP with magick and hope they extend the same courtesy to me.

[wizturbo]

Messing with the gemmed, or gemmed lovers is the same as spitting on a Oashi noble or a Templar MOST of the time.

That is why they don't get fucked with.

I disagree.  Most Gemmed do not get nearly the level of protection that people think they get from Oash or the Templarate.  Of course, they sure as hell aren't going to advertise that.  They'll use any scrap of support they've ever received and try and make it look like they're a protected servant.  And then of course, there's selection bias.  Many of the Gemmed who go to the Gaj and chat it up, do so because they have protection.  Guess what happens when that protection starts to irritate their noble or templar sponsor?  It doesn't last very long.

If you want a real IC reason not to beat up a Gemmed sitting in the Gaj, it's because they're a fucking witch who will curse you and your entire family line.  Your children will be born with mutations.  Your weener will rot off.  You don't beat them up because you fear them.  Of course, if you have an angry mob with you at the time, your opinion of the situation and its risks will be greatly reduced...  Although you might want to ask around to see what happened ICly the last time a riot showed up at the Temple of Suk-krath.

[Desertman]

I agree to disagree.

[hopeandsorrow]

Heh, I sometimes wonder...

For an example, what if a crew boss decides/finds out one of his crew is a sekret gick.

Would it be against documentation for the crew boss to decide that its a very useful tool?  Even if internally their scared to shit, but outwardly and on some intellectual level they can't get over how useful that rogue will be for their plans.

OR mundanes finding out Boss is a rogue gick, does it command respect and fear?

Because sometimes... the black/white nature of the game makes it so, if your playing a rogue gick you just assume every ones gonna type "kill dude" the moment they find out.  Some even do, cause... well they do.

Because one side as awesome potential for RP... the other just turns it into a PK dice roll.


I wish the response was more varied in my experiences... because I often think people approach this shit too black or white with enough nuance, gray, and complexity that would result it better story. 

Sure Amos can summon other wordly forces... but... you've known Amos for years... Amos saved your life... Amos is extremely useful ungemmed... Amos is the reason that tainted dagger remains tucked away in the cloak in case Amos loses control.

::shrug::

[Desertman]

I discovered four rogue magickers I can remember (maybe more, I can recall four by name) working for me over the life of a single leadership PC. Three "manifested" while in my employ having not previously known what they were. Another just chose to hide it.

I let every single one of them walk with the agreement "You never told me anything, I never saw anything.".

Never came back to haunt me once.

Maybe other people are typing "kill man". I don't know.

[nauta]

Because sometimes... the black/white nature of the game makes it so, if your playing a rogue gick you just assume every ones gonna type "kill dude" the moment they find out.  Some even do, cause... well they do.

Because one side as awesome potential for RP... the other just turns it into a PK dice roll.

I could be way off here, but on my reading of the documentation (at least how Allanaki citizens behave with respect to magick), being a witch hunter is as insane (weird) as being a witch lover.  So on my reading of the docs, things just are grey, and people playing it as black/white are operating (hopefully with the right reasons) against the status quo.

(Even in the rinth, where witches are often hunted, or out with the desert elves, I would think hunting a witch would be the sort of thing you did as a last resort, because, like kissing, killing involves close encounters with something that could curse you.)

My 2sid.

[Desertman]

Normal people don't love witches.

Normal people don't hunt witches.


PC's are by far not normal people. Every single PC comes into the game with the aptitude to be amazing beyond that of the standard normal VNCP world.


So yes, "normal" people don't do these things. Most PC's, unless the player is wanting to play a "normal", are not normal.

[LauraMars]

I love playing mages, I love their place in the world, and I think the magick code is the absolute bees knees.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, somebody needs to keep those twisted freaks of nature in their place.

+1   

[hopeandsorrow]

Well I'm just thinking like a Rogue, fully manifested who is outed.

And lets also admit some folks guild sniff like a mutha.  If you ain't rolling in karma for an extended sub-guild it pretty easy to tell.

When I read the docs, I assume Magick is scary and you avoid that shit.

But does really go into detail when your lover turns out to be a magicker? Or your brother? Best friend?  When a magicker dives in for a life saving spell?  OR when a magicker really useful tool?

Or is that by all accounts to far? To much 'love'.  Love such a strong word, can you love the person but hate what they become? Can you love their usefulness by harbor a deep rooted paranoid fear, always keeping that poison arrow just in case.

Just thinking.

[Desertman]

It's situational.

There is no catch-all for this situation.

If your PC would turn them in, then turn them in.

If not, then don't.

[Delirium]

I absolutely agree that there are grey areas and they should be explored and roleplayed responsibly. I've seen it done and done well, and I love playing mages as a result.

Just, sometimes, I really think going hardline, no-compromises mage intolerance (aka, like all^* northern PCs should be) adds some much-needed balance to the spectrum of interactions.

It's also a nice way to enforce playing a character for the sake of inhabiting a role, instead of conveniently structuring your character so that they can "win".

* except for you weird snowflake types that have some Really Good Reason in your documentation to tolerate them... maybe

[BadSkeelz]

It all depends on the PCs involved. Human nature allows for everything. You should just be aware that some expressions and actions are frowned upon by society.

Southern society by and large disapproves of magick and the association with magick. Your PC may be friends with magickers, but this should be with the understanding that this is atypical at best.

Read up on your society's attitudes towards magick. The more out of line your PC is, the more careful you have to be to RP it without coming across as a doc-flaunting mudsex-crazed carebear.

[Jave]

There are no mages allowed in Tuluk.

#tuluk4ever #closeallanak2016 #hashtag

[hopeandsorrow]

I can respect that, maybe I mis-read the GDB rhetoric sometimes.

I read a lot of magick hate as  "kill dude" or "under no circumstances!"

And any complexity of nuance between mundane and witch is always treated by the magick is bad crowd as "WITCH LOVE! ARGH PLAY TO DOCS SNOWFLAKES."

But that how I read which may not be the authors intent.

I also sympathize with the snowflake hate.  When everyone is an exception... it ceases being an exception.