The Future of Quit

[Ender]

The biggest thing I don't understand is why a ranger, a ZERO karma class gets unlimited access to wilderness quit, but a non-ranger mul, or a nilazi, or a psionicist has to find a quit room.

[Delirium]

Quit rooms are actually relatively rare and a pain in the ass to get to, especially after several were removed from the game in the last few years.

Knowing where quit rooms are and having ranger quit are not the same thing at all. Especially if your playtimes are limited or sporadic.

[Ender]

The biggest thing I don't understand is why a ranger, a ZERO karma class gets unlimited access to wilderness quit, but a non-ranger mul, or a nilazi, or a psionicist has to find a quit room.

If you have that kind of karma and you can't find a quit room, then you have bigger problems.

That's absolutely not the point.  The ability to wilderness quit is a really nice benefit to have as a ranger as it allows for a lot of exploration without having to worry about OOC time constraints.  A ranger can enter an area they aren't that familiar with, and feel confident if their child starts crying, or their house catches on fire, they can log off without worry, and without having to worry about if they had used quit ooc before.

It literally changes my personal play style and how willing I am to dedicate time to the game.

[Ender]

I think wilderness quit should be changed to:

"We're all adults here, so let us just log out of the game when and where we want to without restraint, and if I'm a dickhead about it, an administrator will remove this ability for me specifically."

but that's kinda a long name for an ability.

[roughneck]

I think wilderness quit should be changed to:

"We're all adults here, so let us just log out of the game when and where we want to without restraint, and if I'm a dickhead about it, an administrator will remove this ability for me specifically."

but that's kinda a long name for an ability.

So, it makes it slightly more difficult for non-ranger classes to roam around the most remote regions of the world? Kind of makes sense.

[Delirium]

I think wilderness quit should be changed to:

"We're all adults here, so let us just log out of the game when and where we want to without restraint, and if I'm a dickhead about it, an administrator will remove this ability for me specifically."

but that's kinda a long name for an ability.

So, it makes it slightly more difficult for non-ranger classes to roam around the most remote regions of the world? Kind of makes sense.

Whether or not you can quit out has no bearing on the difficulty of surviving in a remote area. Food, water, and angry beasties are much more immediate concerns. If you can handle those concerns, you should be able to survive out there. Quitting should be an entirely OOC mechanism and have no bearing on the IC situation. Because it IS an entirely OOC thing.

Our characters never quit, they go on living in the world. WE, as players, need to quit, for reasons varied and numerous.

[LauraMars]

I'm also in favor of quitting anywhere, anytime.

It would make living in the wilderness as a non-ranger feel more fun besides. That "the whole world is your campground" feeling.

[hopeandsorrow]

I support Quit for all.

[whitt]

I'm also in favor of quitting anywhere, anytime.

I think this is a nightmare waiting to happen.  From Player Complaint and Staff workload standpoint.  Maybe I'm a cynic, but...

Player A is stalking Player B waiting for the right moment to strike, when:

• Player B finally enters that dark alley.  Player A wishes up about to kill Player A and.... quit.  Poof.  Gone.  Better than magick.  Player B didn't even know Player A was there.
• Player B catches sight of Player A and looks at Player A, realizes that Player A is that vicious murderer and... quit.  Poof.  Gone.  Player B panics because they don't want to lose their long lived character.
• Player A cuts down Player B and runs to hide (skill) in a dead-end alley in a dead-end quarter waiting for the wanted flag to run it's course.  Player A watches along the alley and as soon as they see another player?     Quit. Poof. Gone.  Come back on when it's less likely there's someone there and wait out the flag.  If someone does show?  Quit.

Raider fires an arrow signaling you're about to be raided?  Quit.

It's too open for abuse.

I think wilderness quit should be changed to:

"We're all adults here, so let us just log out of the game when and where we want to without restraint, and if I'm a dickhead about it, an administrator will remove this ability for me specifically."

Quit OOC -

If you're in such a rough spot with your playtimes and choice of play location that you need to quit ooc so regularly that you can't tag a safe quit room in between?  Is that really so frequent a thing?

Better to modify Quit OOC so you can use it more than 1x in a row then to give every class Ranger quit.  It's my understanding staff gets notified of the use of Quit OOC (hence the reason required).  This is much easier to monitor for abuse than having to wait for the inevitable Player Complaints, dig through logs, burn time and energy contacting the "offending player", etc...

[Molten Heart]

If there were something like a 60 second delay on the ability to quit in the wilderness (or outside of a safe room), this would prevent a lot of abuse and complaints. A delay kind of like crafting.


Nevermind, this would make rangers less awesome and we can't have that.

[LauraMars]

I'm also in favor of quitting anywhere, anytime.

I think this is a nightmare waiting to happen.  From Player Complaint and Staff workload standpoint.  Maybe I'm a cynic, but...

Player A is stalking Player B waiting for the right moment to strike, when:

• Player B finally enters that dark alley.  Player A wishes up about to kill Player A and.... quit.  Poof.  Gone.  Better than magick.  Player B didn't even know Player A was there.
• Player B catches sight of Player A and looks at Player A, realizes that Player A is that vicious murderer and... quit.  Poof.  Gone.  Player B panics because they don't want to lose their long lived character.
• Player A cuts down Player B and runs to hide (skill) in a dead-end alley in a dead-end quarter waiting for the wanted flag to run it's course.  Player A watches along the alley and as soon as they see another player?     Quit. Poof. Gone.  Come back on when it's less likely there's someone there and wait out the flag.  If someone does show?  Quit.

Raider fires an arrow signaling you're about to be raided?  Quit.

It's too open for abuse.

Can't you already do all this stuff with Quit OOC though?  How often does it really happen?

[roughneck]

I have total faith in playerbase to (for the most part) avoid abusing a quit-for-all change to the game.

I think ranger-only wilderness quit is better because it keeps everyone else closer to quit rooms, generally speaking. All, but the most experienced and seasoned travelers, should be staying close civilization where they can buy food and water and find shelter.

There are quit rooms at city gates and enough other places that if you're a non-ranger who's worried about emergency log-outs, all you have to do is stay close to these places and manage your PC's or your mount's stamina to be able to make it back quickly.

A lack of wilderness quit isn't your issue, failing to manage your stamina or failing to remain close to quit rooms is your issue.

One of the great parts of Armageddon is that there are real limitations on different classes that bring the world alive, this is one of them.

[Molten Heart]

Excellent point, no need to fix a non-existent problem.

[TheWanderer]

Agreed. Is it convenient? Sure. Is it a huge issue? No.

I'm totally against changes, anyway. Good day.

edit: I'd prefer people not just casually log out near limited resources every time, either. I'll take the rangers doing it, but -every- class? Let's slow our roll.

[hopeandsorrow]

I'm also in favor of quitting anywhere, anytime.

I think this is a nightmare waiting to happen.  From Player Complaint and Staff workload standpoint.  Maybe I'm a cynic, but...

Player A is stalking Player B waiting for the right moment to strike, when:

• Player B finally enters that dark alley.  Player A wishes up about to kill Player A and.... quit.  Poof.  Gone.  Better than magick.  Player B didn't even know Player A was there.
• Player B catches sight of Player A and looks at Player A, realizes that Player A is that vicious murderer and... quit.  Poof.  Gone.  Player B panics because they don't want to lose their long lived character.
• Player A cuts down Player B and runs to hide (skill) in a dead-end alley in a dead-end quarter waiting for the wanted flag to run it's course.  Player A watches along the alley and as soon as they see another player?     Quit. Poof. Gone.  Come back on when it's less likely there's someone there and wait out the flag.  If someone does show?  Quit.

Raider fires an arrow signaling you're about to be raided?  Quit.

It's too open for abuse.

Can't you already do all this stuff with Quit OOC though?  How often does it really happen?

Doesn't Quit OOC get logged with staff though?

I'm sure a mild delay on quit and removing Ranger's ability to Insta-quit would be a super fair solution.

OOC quit would only be used if you have to go THAT SECOND.


I'm often have to quit/gone a lot because of my home life, but even I can toss it up to a 60 second delay most cases.  If it's one of those times I do have to go RIGHT NOW, I'd just Quit OOC.

I think ranger-only wilderness quit is better because it keeps everyone else closer to quit rooms, generally speaking. All, but the most experienced and seasoned travelers, should be staying close civilization where they can buy food and water and find shelter.

There are quit rooms at city gates and enough other places that if you're a non-ranger who's worried about emergency log-outs, all you have to do is stay close to these places and manage your PC's or your mount's stamina to be able to make it back quickly.

A lack of wilderness quit isn't your issue, failing to manage your stamina or failing to remain close to quit rooms is your issue.

One of the great parts of Armageddon is that there are real limitations on different classes that bring the world alive, this is one of them.

The above quote I disagree with greatly, and it shows a lack of empathy towards players who don't have the time and life conveniences to play Arm hours straight with out a break and with out interruption.  

Insisting anyone who is not a Ranger must rely on the one time OOC quit or never go explore or do anything cool because they have to remain tethered to the city is utterly archaic.

[Lizzie]

Actually I'd like to see desert elves and humans in *coded* non-city-based tribes have more access to quit. How much more access? Not sure. Maybe more quitOOC options. Or maybe "if you're more than 20 rooms from an actual quit-safe room AND you are not in a city/outpost, you can quit here without using quitOOC.

Note, I haven't played a desert elf in a couple of years, and it's been even longer since I've played a human *coded* tribal. So I have no real horse in this race. I also find it inconvenient to have to find a quit-safe room with all of my non-ranger characters, but I plan for it, and make sure I'm not doing anything that involves me being that far away from a quit-safe room that I can't just quit there. Once in awhile I have to use quitOOC - I think I've used it maybe 6 times since it was implemented. Not a big deal.

[LauraMars]

I'm sure a mild delay on quit and removing Ranger's ability to Insta-quit would be a super fair solution.

OOC quit would only be used if you have to go THAT SECOND.


I'm often have to quit/gone a lot because of my home life, but even I can toss it up to a 60 second delay most cases.  If it's one of those times I do have to go RIGHT NOW, I'd just Quit OOC.

I agree, that seems pretty fair.  Would cut down on situations of abuse as well.

[Desertman]

I feel Quit OOC makes this a non-issue in the extremely vast majority of situations.

[Delirium]

Quit OOC just proves that we should be able to quit anywhere without having to use quit OOC.

I really shouldn't have to explain myself like I'm some wayward kid every time I need to log out. We're all (mostly) adults here.

[wizturbo]

Just add more quit rooms.  Shouldn't be so rare, they're an OOC construct.

[Desertman]

I think it is a good system that balances responsibility to the roleplay-first environment of the game with considerations for the OOC lives of the players.

If someone is concerned they feel they are being oppressed and disrespected by a lack of wilderness quit on a OOC level.....I don't know what to say that to that.

I've never personally felt disrespected myself by this feature of the game (or lack thereof) so I don't guess I can offer any insight there.

[hopeandsorrow]

Since I got a dog in this hunt.

The only issue with Quit OOC is having to find a quit room after the fact once you log in.

Which yea, usually isn't an issue but I've had times, really unlucky times that I thought the world was settled and that life and fortune would smile upon me once I logged back in only to hear a piercing cry, or the cat puking on the couch, or something equally as terrible.

I had either spam rush in the most hilarious unrealistic of fashions to the closet possible quit room (Hoping the entire time a storm doesn't decide to fuck me in that moment) or just type in gone afk, so anyone who finds my Krath struck PC standing next to his mount staring blankly at the Crimson Sun.

It kind of sucks, I already shove most my Arming in three hours of me staying up way later then I should as a grown adult with an important Job.  I believe I stated in the ranger thread, Ranger Quit is 50% of the reason I play rangers, the literal convenience and safety of having that on demand, no matter what happens makes playing a lot easier and lot less riskier.

Granted I've never as been so unlucky to be killed while a None Ranger while gone, but often time I usually keep those PC's tethered to the city much to the detriment of their lives and RP opportunities.

To Echo Delirium, we're all adults here.


I'm not terribly upset if things stay the same or whatever, I've adapted and worked around it before and I always seem to manage.  But it's unfortunate that I don't honestly consider most other classes as equally playable for that one little OOC construct, that I'm more likely to pass on this clan or this RPT or this Contract because the nature of quit and if something happens beyond my control OOCly.

Ultimately RL will always come first.  I don't care what's going on in game.  I'd like it if it didn't feel like a risk of a PC because I might have go afk for an unknown amount of time and I don't still have that quit OOC loaded in the chamber.  Those are my personal limitations and issues, I Don't honestly expect the game change specifically for me but I like that there's a conversation going.


Also quit rooms sometimes lead to some cheesiness because of their stagnant nature.  Most people know where most of them are.  Considering the known virtually should have thousands of nooks, crannies, and holes.  Yet really there's enough that some one determined enough could check only them in a relatively short amount of time.

It should be a bit harder to hunt rogues of all times down in a world of hundreds of thousands with vast and unrelenting pock marked landscape of ruins and natural caves.

I think it is a good system that balances responsibility to the roleplay-first environment of the game with considerations for the OOC lives of the players.

If someone is concerned they feel they are being oppressed and disrespected by a lack of wilderness quit on a OOC level.....I don't know what to say that to that.

I've never personally felt disrespected myself by this feature of the game (or lack thereof) so I don't guess I can offer any insight there.

Your Opinion is Oppressive Man! Check your Quit Privilege!

Nah, I just have a often interrupted life, there's a lot of online games I can't play in earnest because I have young children.  I Wouldn't say oppressive, but I wish sometimes I had more sympathy cause all I Wanna do is play games while the little ones sleep, sometimes they don't sleep.  OR my cat's an asshole, or my wife suddenly might need help or I'm on call that weekend for work.

Merely trying to make the case that quit for all would be nice, for someone like me. 

[Desertman]

Eh, I guess if everyone got quit everywhere it wouldn't hurt me any.

I just don't find it to be an issue on any level personally and never have.

If it is a issue for enough people I'm not opposed I guess.

[Malken]

Quit rooms are so 1998.

[CodeMaster]

It's true that quitting is an OOC act, but lots of OOC acts have IC analogs to help smooth over the bumps rather than just retcon that these OOC things happened.

OOCly we say linkdead, ICly we say "krath struck".  OOCly we quit, ICly we go to the dormitory or whatever.  Unless you're a ranger.

Maybe it would be a nice compromise for everyone if there were a non-extended subguild that got wilderness quit as its big selling point.

[CodeMaster]

Also I think burglars should get city quit.  Maybe in non-crowd rooms or while hidden.

[valeria]

I like quit how it is currently, but with one exception: people should be able to quit freely on all of the settlement streets and in the markets.

It isn't about treating you like children for abusing wilderness quit capabilities. It's about keeping the wilderness mostly wild. And in my opinion, the lack of prevalent quit rooms contributes to that.

[Fujikoma]

How about this, we give all city guilds and subguilds city quit, and give all outdoorsy guilds (to include warrior and rogue mages) and subguilds wilderness quit, or maybe remove mages from the list because pick a fucking outdoorsy subguild you gicker scum? That would seem an ideal solution to me. Ranger quit is very powerful and prone to abuse, however, so I can kind of see why quit OOC is a thing.

[Fujikoma]

Or on the flipside, could just remove the limitations from quit OOC, it will still be logged, and still require a reason, so if there is abuse it'll be obvious.

[BadSkeelz]

I've seen enough shenanigans from players to think giving everyone quit-anywhere (wilderness or streets) is a bad idea.

A subguild or 2 with wilderness quit wouldn't game-breaking. But wholesale expansion of Quit would be more trouble than it's worth.

[Adhira]

Just add more quit rooms.  Shouldn't be so rare, they're an OOC construct.

I mentioned in a previous Producer report that this is one of the projects I'm planning to tackle this year. Subguilds and guilds first.

[Fujikoma]

I've seen enough shenanigans from players to think giving everyone quit-anywhere (wilderness or streets) is a bad idea.

A subguild or 2 with wilderness quit wouldn't game-breaking. But wholesale expansion of Quit would be more trouble than it's worth.

As have I, honestly, and, sadly.

[Asanadas]

Here's what I say: quit delay (of 2+mins) everywhere, and keep quit rooms insta-quit.

And auto quit for everyone logged out more than 10 minutes.

If your character goes link-dead for more than 10 minutes, they should be removed from the PC world. I've seen so many good characters and stories be destroyed from this OOC problem. This is a legacy from DIKU days, and frankly should be dealt away with for the betterment of the in-game narrative.

Seriously, a man is going to stand out in the desert with a full waterskin and die of thirst? All because his player lost connection. That's a failure of this medium of DIKU to provide what it's intended to provide: a story narrative.

And if anyone abuses it, they will have their accounts limited to quit rooms only; just like it is now with quit ooc.

I think this would vastly improve the experiences of people who don't have access to large blocks of playing time or other knowledge resources out there.

[th3kaiser]

I've literally never had a problem with this and I play almost exclusively wilderness PCs. With the advent of quit ooc this is a complete non-issue. Had a bit of a think about this and with one or two exceptions cannot think of any areas in the game when you're not within 25-30 rooms of a quit room, they're all over the place.

[Ender]

I think one of the biggest problems I have with a lot of the wilderness quit rooms in the very hard to reach places are described like this:

A STINK ROOM [NESW QUIT] 
THIS ROOM SMELLS LIKE IF SOMEONE DIED WHILE POOPING AND VOMITING AT THE SAME TIME.  IT'S SO BAD THAT YOU'RE ALREADY A BAD PLAYER FOR HAVING READ THIS FAR WITHOUT LEAVING, PUKING, OR PUTTING IN A STORAGE REQUEST FOR DYING OF BAD SMELLS.  WHAT A BAD PLAYER YOU ARE.

[Narf]

I've literally never had a problem with this and I play almost exclusively wilderness PCs. With the advent of quit ooc this is a complete non-issue. Had a bit of a think about this and with one or two exceptions cannot think of any areas in the game when you're not within 25-30 rooms of a quit room, they're all over the place.

The proximity of a quit room is only useful if you know where it is.

[Case]

I think one of the biggest problems I have with a lot of the wilderness quit rooms in the very hard to reach places are described like this:

A STINK ROOM [NESW QUIT] 
THIS ROOM SMELLS LIKE IF SOMEONE DIED WHILE POOPING AND VOMITING AT THE SAME TIME.  IT'S SO BAD THAT YOU'RE ALREADY A BAD PLAYER FOR HAVING READ THIS FAR WITHOUT LEAVING, PUKING, OR PUTTING IN A STORAGE REQUEST FOR DYING OF BAD SMELLS.  WHAT A BAD PLAYER YOU ARE.

We should have 5 star hotels in the wilderness for nobles on a jaunt, maybe a few more motels like Luirs along the main routes, and an outlaw boutique to capture that Destroyer Of Life market. Nothing says badass secret villain like smelling of pymlithe shampoo after a busy day at the edgy rogue mage factory!

[LauraMars]

I think one of the biggest problems I have with a lot of the wilderness quit rooms in the very hard to reach places are described like this:

A STINK ROOM [NESW QUIT] 
THIS ROOM SMELLS LIKE IF SOMEONE DIED WHILE POOPING AND VOMITING AT THE SAME TIME.  IT'S SO BAD THAT YOU'RE ALREADY A BAD PLAYER FOR HAVING READ THIS FAR WITHOUT LEAVING, PUKING, OR PUTTING IN A STORAGE REQUEST FOR DYING OF BAD SMELLS.  WHAT A BAD PLAYER YOU ARE.

I don't understand this

Is every quit room in the wilderness filled with rotting corpses?

If so, why? I seem to remember most of the wilderness being mostly sand or scrub, with some rocks I think. I can't really remember. dear god what happened out there? I haven't been to the desert since 2009

[Fujikoma]

I think one of the biggest problems I have with a lot of the wilderness quit rooms in the very hard to reach places are described like this:

A STINK ROOM [NESW QUIT] 
THIS ROOM SMELLS LIKE IF SOMEONE DIED WHILE POOPING AND VOMITING AT THE SAME TIME.  IT'S SO BAD THAT YOU'RE ALREADY A BAD PLAYER FOR HAVING READ THIS FAR WITHOUT LEAVING, PUKING, OR PUTTING IN A STORAGE REQUEST FOR DYING OF BAD SMELLS.  WHAT A BAD PLAYER YOU ARE.

I don't understand this

Is every quit room in the wilderness filled with rotting corpses?

If so, why? I seem to remember most of the wilderness being mostly sand or scrub, with some rocks I think. I can't really remember. dear god what happened out there? I haven't been to the desert since 2009

What else would a true Zalanthan sleep on?

[Armaddict]

Seriously, a man is going to stand out in the desert with a full waterskin and die of thirst? All because his player lost connection. That's a failure of this medium of DIKU to provide what it's intended to provide: a story narrative.

Losing link suspends your hunger and thirst.  It does not protect you from random baddies out in the desert.  It really is a luck of the draw, in its current state.

That said, I have lost characters to linkdead.  I have lost characters to afk, because there is a post from 2006 or something that is the last definitive status of staff opinion on ranger quit, which is basically 'use it for long-term survival, not as a way to take a quick afk safely, or we will remove it from rangers' that I followed up until the last year or so.  I have also had a linkdead death returned from death because it was clear the other player was not trying anything, but instantly attacked the moment they got the message I was linkdead.

I agree that these sorts of deaths do not add to the game, and would like for there to be a grace period before you're removed from the game.  'Hunt' should return that someone made camp here, so that complaints can be forwarded in the case there is a pursuit avoided in this way.

[RogueGunslinger]

I have a lowered opinion on anyone who thinks the ability to quite anywhere anytime is a bad thing. It's an incredibly stupid argument to back.

I've had multiple issues with quit-ooc. Usually right after I sparred with someone and need to log out. Oh, combat timer, better quit-ooc... Oh wait, I already did that last time. Better just leave my pc in game and hope they don't dehydrate to death by the time I get back....

You should be able to quit anywhere, anytime.

[nauta]

'Hunt' should return that someone made camp here.

A million +1s on that.  For me, it's a bit immersion breaking, and it strikes me as a relatively easy whack in the code, but I'm no coder.

I also love the idea of a 'quit' delay.  Remember: you can quit out to avoid NPCs stalking you, which is another avenue for abuse.

There was a very recent discussion on Quit Anywhere on the gdb.

[Fujikoma]

'Hunt' should return that someone made camp here.

A million +1s on that.  For me, it's a bit immersion breaking, and it strikes me as a relatively easy whack in the code, but I'm no coder.

I also love the idea of a 'quit' delay.  Remember: you can quit out to avoid NPCs stalking you, which is another avenue for abuse.

There was a very recent discussion on Quit Anywhere on the gdb.

Yeah, but NPCs stalk relentlessly, players should be afforded more opportunities. I'm not averse to quit being used to get away from NPCs, it only starts to really bother me when it's used on PCs.

[TheWanderer]

I like quit how it is currently, but with one exception: people should be able to quit freely on all of the settlement streets and in the markets.

It isn't about treating you like children for abusing wilderness quit capabilities. It's about keeping the wilderness mostly wild. And in my opinion, the lack of prevalent quit rooms contributes to that.

I like this post

I have a lowered opinion on anyone who thinks the ability to quite anywhere anytime is a bad thing. It's an incredibly stupid argument to back.

I've had multiple issues with quit-ooc. Usually right after I sparred with someone and need to log out. Oh, combat timer, better quit-ooc... Oh wait, I already did that last time. Better just leave my pc in game and hope they don't dehydrate to death by the time I get back....

You should be able to quit anywhere, anytime.

here's a thought: tap one of the quit rooms upon logging back into the game.

[BadSkeelz]

I have a lowered opinion on anyone who thinks the ability to quite anywhere anytime is a bad thing. It's an incredibly stupid argument to back.

I've had multiple issues with quit-ooc. Usually right after I sparred with someone and need to log out. Oh, combat timer, better quit-ooc... Oh wait, I already did that last time. Better just leave my pc in game and hope they don't dehydrate to death by the time I get back....

You should be able to quit anywhere, anytime.

If you're able to spar, you probably have a quit room nearby. Maybe you should get in the habit of using it after you re-enter the game from a quit OOC, just to reset the timer.

The problem with "quit anywhere, anytime" is that it's too open to abuse. I know this because the current quit code is abused plenty.

Edit: Got my timers confused...

[hopeandsorrow]

I have a lowered opinion on anyone who thinks the ability to quite anywhere anytime is a bad thing. It's an incredibly stupid argument to back.

While I agree with ya bud.  The following statement does not induce a constructive discussion, I know your feel but man...

And the argument isn't stupid per-say.  They're worried by abuse and well lets face it, some players have proven to be colossal shit bags, distract staff from doing fun stuff.  It's a fair argument if even we think it's unwarranted and not very valid in 2016.

But that's why I'm in the delay camp.  I'm an infamous 'Shit I GOTTA GO" guy or the ranger quit guy.  A min/2 min delay prevents abuse while still giving an unfortunate player like me time to attend what ever interruption is happening.  Whether family or work related.

[Armaddict]

It's an incredibly stupid argument to back.

Not really.  Even traditional MMO's with an 'exit now' option leave your character in game for varying degrees of time to prevent it being used as an escape.

If you think that such is incredibly stupid to back in a multiplayer game, then single player is probably right up your alley, or you're arguing to allow you to quit but still allow bad things to happen to you for a grace period, otherwise you're kind of missing the point of why such things exist.

Edited to add:  In addition to the suggestions of using quit rooms upon logging back in, you could also try either not engaging in combat/putting yourself in a non-quitting position as you get closer to the time you need to leave, or if you've been ambushed with something that needs tending to, let them know you were ambushed and will need a couple minutes.

[Asanadas]

Seriously, a man is going to stand out in the desert with a full waterskin and die of thirst? All because his player lost connection. That's a failure of this medium of DIKU to provide what it's intended to provide: a story narrative.

Losing link suspends your hunger and thirst.  It does not protect you from random baddies out in the desert.  It really is a luck of the draw, in its current state. ...

Hey, I agree with the rest of your post, but in this particular situation, what you're talking about didn't happen (hunger and thirst). I wish I could talk about it more, but in respect to the player, I can't provide a lot of details. The staff already knew about it, heh. That's been over and done with for a year, though, so I used that example to illustrate just how bad a linkdead experience can be -- especially with all the time and love we put in our characters.

It adds nothing to the game, and indeed subtracts enjoyment from people who care about their characters, to lose them to this failure of the DIKU medium. If I could get access to the code and change it with the intention of creating a better RPI and less of its ancestral hacknslash, this is one of the changes I would make.

[Fujikoma]

If you got killed while AFK, I think I would consider that poor form.

[Armaddict]

Seriously, a man is going to stand out in the desert with a full waterskin and die of thirst? All because his player lost connection. That's a failure of this medium of DIKU to provide what it's intended to provide: a story narrative.

Losing link suspends your hunger and thirst.  It does not protect you from random baddies out in the desert.  It really is a luck of the draw, in its current state. ...

Hey, I agree with the rest of your post, but in this particular situation, what you're talking about didn't happen (hunger and thirst). I wish I could talk about it more, but in respect to the player, I can't provide a lot of details. The staff already knew about it, heh. That's been over and done with for a year, though, so I used that example to illustrate just how bad a linkdead experience can be -- especially with all the time and love we put in our characters.

It adds nothing to the game, and indeed subtracts enjoyment from people who care about their characters, to lose them to this failure of the DIKU medium. If I could get access to the code and change it with the intention of creating a better RPI and less of its ancestral hacknslash, this is one of the changes I would make.

I have gone linkdead for days at a time, unintentionally, and come back to 'reconnected', and been neither hungry or thirsty.

[Fujikoma]

There have been times where people wanted me dead, and players passed on it because I was AFK, the best grief requires rubbing their nose in it, otherwise, it's just wasted. NPCs don't have the same ideas, however.

[hopeandsorrow]

There have been times where people wanted me dead, and players passed on it because I was AFK, the best grief requires rubbing their nose in it, otherwise, it's just wasted. NPCs don't have the same ideas, however.

Good guy... Griefer?

[Fujikoma]

There have been times where people wanted me dead, and players passed on it because I was AFK, the best grief requires rubbing their nose in it, otherwise, it's just wasted. NPCs don't have the same ideas, however.

Good guy... Griefer?

Uh, I routinely test as "killer" on the Bartle test, but I like being social, so I try to keep my recreational activities low-profile... but I'm familiar with the motive, when you go out of your way to harm another player, you only cheat yourself if you kill them AFK. It would take a huge jackass to consider an AFK kill a success.

[Armaddict]

There's a balance to be met, from me.  This topic was discussed a lot back in the day, because the game was less stable for some.  Staff position at -that- time (I don't know if it changed) was for a grace period to be used to allow time for reboots, updates, things of that nature.  But someone deciding to use disconnection rather than a quit room, or someone's power going out for hours at a time, should not stall the events.

If it's not important to my character, if it's a passing trivial thing...someone being linkdead is a pass on violence/aggression.
If it's important to my character, but I've just stumbled on them by chance and -because- they were linkdead...I'll give them a pass.  Depending on things, I may beep, or initiate contact and see if they react, and if there is no reaction, I take it as a time to pass on things.
If it's important to my character, and I've been shadowing, pursuing, or hunting them, but then they -go- linkdead...I'll give a grace period of 15 to 20 minutes, then continue in the trend of behavior that was set.

[RogueGunslinger]

I have a lowered opinion on anyone who thinks the ability to quite anywhere anytime is a bad thing. It's an incredibly stupid argument to back.

I've had multiple issues with quit-ooc. Usually right after I sparred with someone and need to log out. Oh, combat timer, better quit-ooc... Oh wait, I already did that last time. Better just leave my pc in game and hope they don't dehydrate to death by the time I get back....

You should be able to quit anywhere, anytime.

The problem with "quit anywhere, anytime" is that it's too open to abuse. I know this because the current quit code is abused plenty.

Edit: Got my timers confused...

How is it more open to abuse than quit-ooc? It would just mean it could be abused with a bit higher frequency from the people who are already breaking the rules. It's not going to give them more incentive to do so if they already are. These people should be punished, not the rest of the player-base.

I've honestly never seen someone run to a quit-room or quit-ooc to escape other people. But you were in the AOD for a long time, you likely have more experience with that.

I have gone linkdead for days at a time, unintentionally, and come back to 'reconnected', and been neither hungry or thirsty.

This is not reliable, especially if you have to go afk because you couldn't quit out and don't actually go linkdead.

I'm not missing the point. I know exactly why quit-ooc can't be used more than once. And it's for a stupid reason. The fact that it's already there, and already open to the abuse you all are worrying about makes me think you're jumping at shadows and being incredibly pessimistic based on a couple bad apples you've seen.

As for suggestions to "make sure to use  a quit room after using quit-ooc" Yeah, that easy enough to say, but I'm not going to remember every time I've used quit-ooc and I shouldn't' have to. I shouldn't be saddled with inconveniences just because the people who are breaking the games rules aren't punished harshly enough.

[Fujikoma]

I will agree that going linkdead in an effort to avoid a confrontation is poor form, this is what you worked for, here, in your face, and, you're going to try to use code to avoid it? No, play that shit out.

[Alesan]

If you got killed while AFK, I think I would consider that poor form.

Damn those inconsiderate NPCs and mobs. I'm filing a player complaint!

[Armaddict]

Er, what you linked there, RGS, was to Asanadas saying that linkdead people died to hunger and thirst, not telling you that you should just go linkdead.

With you, I think it's more about time management than anything else.  I've only used quit ooc once or twice in the past...well.  Since it was made.  I never imagined that it was supposed to be used as often as you seem to be using it, which makes it almost a casual thing to me which is weird.

[Fujikoma]

If you got killed while AFK, I think I would consider that poor form.

Damn those inconsiderate NPCs and mobs. I'm filing a player complaint!

I'm filing a character complaint against your mom, I totally didn't consent OOC!

Also, hunger and thirst code have been adjusted when you're linkdead.

[hopeandsorrow]

Er, what you linked there, RGS, was to Asanadas saying that linkdead people died to hunger and thirst, not telling you that you should just go linkdead.

With you, I think it's more about time management than anything else.  I've only used quit ooc once or twice in the past...well.  Since it was made.  I never imagined that it was supposed to be used as often as you seem to be using it, which makes it almost a casual thing to me which is weird.

In your experience did you go Link dead outside the gates?  I'm familiar with Asandas's situation because we share the mutual friend it happen too.  It was crappy situation, it was over a year ago so maybe something changed.

[Fujikoma]

I only know it's been adjusted since I frequently pass out drunk on my keyboard... if it functioned like it usually did and I went linkdead, that would be one dead-ass PC. Also, don't go linkdead outside the gates. it's especially embarrassing when a HG has to carry you in, and you're a city elf, and it's, one of those things that, never happened.

[RogueGunslinger]

With you, I think it's more about time management than anything else.  I've only used quit ooc once or twice in the past...well.  Since it was made.  I never imagined that it was supposed to be used as often as you seem to be using it, which makes it almost a casual thing to me which is weird.

Yeah I use it often(1-2 times a week?), and very much so OOCly. I figured that's what it's there for.

Er, what you linked there, RGS, was to Asanadas saying that linkdead people died to hunger and thirst, not telling you that you should just go linkdead.

With you, I think it's more about time management than anything else.  I've only used quit ooc once or twice in the past...well.  Since it was made.  I never imagined that it was supposed to be used as often as you seem to be using it, which makes it almost a casual thing to me which is weird.

In your experience did you go Link dead outside the gates?  I'm familiar with Asandas's situation because we share the mutual friend it happen too.  It was crappy situation, it was over a year ago so maybe something changed.

Er, what you linked there, RGS, was to Asanadas saying that linkdead people died to hunger and thirst, not telling you that you should just go linkdead.

Yeah I didn't think anyone was saying I should go linkdead.  I'm just saying it's inconsistent. If the server doesn't know you're disconnected(because of technical reasons) then you can still go LD and die of hunger/thirst code. I literally watched this happen a month ago or so. It's one of the many situations I think deserves a resurrection.

[Fujikoma]

Either they fixed that, RGS, or I am connecting to the wrong server.

[Armaddict]

[hunger/thirst while linkdead derail]

I have gone linkdead outside the gates.  Usually not for such long periods of time, those usually happen because I forget I'm logged into the game, and I'm hyperaware and into the game outside the gates with exceptions of potty breaks.  It would have been back during my lone d-elf era, which happened often enough, but again, not for spans of longer than a few hours.

In the case of outside the gates, I cannot give a definitive answer due to periods of linkdeath outside the gates being much more urgent to me, to the point I will go to someone else's house for their internet to log off.  This is because with creature movement, there is a definitive risk of baddies getting you outside the gates before hunger and thirst.

However.  While the rate is increased outside the gates, I see no reason why linkdeath inside the gates would suspend it (as in the case where I'm linkdead for 24 hours straight), and linkdeath outside the gates would not.  I think your mutual friend was killed by an npc or possibly pc while linkdead out there.

[Fujikoma]

Ok, I think I see the problem, play more city elves.

[RogueGunslinger]

Sometimes (due to technical reasons) The game does not know you're link-dead, even though you are. It has nothing to do with being inside or outside the gates.

[Asanadas]

Sometimes (due to technical reasons) The game does not know you're link-dead, even though you are. It has nothing to do with being inside or outside the gates.

This is exactly the issue. This is a terminal sensing problem. Yes, I know that food and water values "freeze" when you disconnect from the terminal. However, there are bad severs and other potential issues that can possibly leave Ginka without "knowing" someone has disconnected. There's no actionable ping test automated to resolve this, or else [situation] wouldn't have happened.

Yes, I know that anecdotally you've gone linkdead out in the desert and come back fine -- food and water, at least. However, this is not the situation for at least one person who lost their character. This was a real travesty, in my opinion -- that character was great, and he put a lot of love into it only to be ruined by a failure in the way our medium is played: fancy telnet connections.

So! All that said, I think it's a shame, and there should be A: quit everywhere, and B: a 10-15 minute activity ping from the terminal, which would disconnect someone inactive if there's no response. I think this would build towards a better RPI experience, and abusers could have quit anywhere removed of course.

[ABoredLion]

I have a log, as well as requests backing up death to a very strong character due to household loss of internet for 2 hours. I died at the 1 hour 47 minute mark or so, if I remember what staff said. I could get the exact request and such, and give it, but I'm not sure if staff would view kindly on it. As long as I remove the name, and give the basic interaction as well as information, it should be fine though, if anyone wants it. The request says specifically, 'You lost link at X, and approximately X amount of time passed, and you died of dehydration.'

[RogueGunslinger]

It's incredibly stupid if staff don't give out a rez for shit like that.

[Case]

Honestly, it should keep a timer since last command, and if none is entered in say 15 mins, it should linkdead you. That's the failsafe. If this is implemented currently, it's not working perfectly for some reason.

Otherwise it should be detectable iff it fails a send to a connection that has been torn down or otherwise lost that is able to return an error. Lag will muck it up, a firewall being overzealous might return nothing, or I dunno, DNS breaks or something weird. This should be covered by the failsafe.

In the case of the game lagging and halting its timers, we have a problem. The connections will time out but not correctly be torn down, the lag is of N length and players may have to go, and upon resumption it'll still take the failsafe time to linkdie people. So maybe a check to system time each series of game loops that can detect this problem.

[ABoredLion]

I died two steps from a water source, with a backpack full of fresh skins. I'd filled them all up, was coming out to put them all away, forgot to take a drink from the source. I finished putting them all away, saw the reminder 'you're thirsty' again, and went to get the skin out of my pack, and then went linkdead. End of the story. His, anyhow.

[Asanadas]

It's incredibly stupid if staff don't give out a rez for shit like that.

They definitely don't.   for how harsh Zalanthas is supposed to be, this sort of OOC helplessness is unnecessary and detrimental to the game.

I understand where the reasoning is coming from: "If we do this now, we're going back on our word when we've denied this to everyone in the past." In my opinion, it's never too late to start doing the right thing. Those who have suffered from the wrong decisions in the past will see it as more of a good-will gesture towards improvement, instead of a paranoid staff-pet-fest some would fear them to react with. After all, everyone's here to play and get some enjoyment.

Yes, the setting is supposed to be harsh; but I believe this harshness should be kept entirely within IC means, and that no bitterness or otherwise hostility should be put forward OOCly. However, there are some few outspoken individuals that would have this harshness pervade not only the OOC game mechanics but also the entire community... this I disagree with vehemently.

The nature of the quit room bottleneck, and its archaic limitations on players in this thread preventing them from playing potential concepts, is a mild example of that OOC harshness. I think it'd be best if it was done away with, and some sort of check was made to prevent players from losing their valued characters through (OOC!) situations entirely beyond their control.

[Fujikoma]

Ok, this has absolutely never happened to ME, but that doesn't mean it never happens. If it did I would be pissed as shit... two hours, reallly?

[wizturbo]

A tale of sorrow....

How long ago was this?  It seems like something that would've happened a long time ago, but not in recent years.

[ABoredLion]

This was within the last year, I'll say. Which is why I'm not so sure about throwing out the full requests and such. But I could doctor out names/etc.

[wizturbo]

This was within the last year, I'll say. Which is why I'm not so sure about throwing out the full requests and such. But I could doctor out names/etc.

No, I definitely wouldn't spread a bunch of behind the scenes discussions with staff on the GDB.  Not appropriate.  I'm kinda surprised by this outcome though.  Maybe you died of dehydration because some bad ass Vivaduan who was guarding the water source came and sucked your character dry while you linkdead...  You should imagine that happen, just because it sounds way cooler. 

Protip though, I've had this happen to me, and I login to the game using my phone simply to type Quit OOC.  

[ABoredLion]

Near word for word suggestion by staff. How quaint. But no, to be honest, at that point I didn't have a phone. And yes, best not to air it, even if it weren't a bad interaction. I tend toward not provoking the ministry, heh! I got over it in a day or two. They were kind enough to tell me how I died, at least, down to the minute(since technically I should have been there to see it, it'd be a bit retarded to not tell you how you died). So it's hard to hold any hate for a character back then, even though he was probably the strongest character I ever had. Moved on. And so they go. One death to the next.

[wizturbo]

I was playing recently from a hotel in San Diego because I saw some shit going down on the clan forums and thought, fuck it, vacation isn't that important when there's Arm to be had....  Ended up having to log off on my phone when the wifi in my hotel room went dead.  Fortunately, I restricted my play to sitting in a guarded room and talking.  If I had to go anywhere unsafe, I wouldn't have logged in for any reason.

[Nergal]

The side discussion on being link-dead is off-topic. It suffices to say that you won't starve or dehydrate to death if you're already sated. if you're hungry or thirsty before you go link dead then you will suffer and eventually die from starvation/dehydration. Now let's stay on topic, please.

[Asanadas]

I made a thead here -- http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50387.0.html to continue that conversation if possible, and get it out of this thread.

[Harmless]

Better to modify Quit OOC so you can use it more than 1x in a row then to give every class Ranger quit.  It's my understanding staff gets notified of the use of Quit OOC (hence the reason required).  This is much easier to monitor for abuse than having to wait for the inevitable Player Complaints, dig through logs, burn time and energy contacting the "offending player", etc...

This is basically all we need.

I disagree everyone should get "ranger quit." I think that differentiating between an "IC quit" and an "OOC quit" should remain, so I like the current system requiring the argument of 'ooc' and a reason/explanation to get quit ability anywhere. After all, it makes sense for a character to "disappear" in a location like a crowd at the gate (already quit safe), a tavern, an apartment, or a guildhall, etc. That's where you no longer can interact with the PC for a time, because they have melded back into the Virtual world.

It doesn't make as much sense for a PC to suddenly "poof" in the middle of a canyon or in a dark alley.

Since what we're doing is telling stories, I like that stories typically start and end at certain places. The hero leaves the gates, has an adventure, and then eventually, returns. If the player has to stop roleplaying in the middle of the adventure, no problem; but require the player to notify the staff that they are stopping mid-story.

However, for there to be a limit of "one break per session" doesn't make much sense. I've definitely had to continue a scene for two quit ooc's before, maybe three at the most. At least making this rule a bit more lax would be a step in the right direction.

[CodeMaster]

if everyone were to get quit ooc maybe everyone but Rangers should have to log back on hungry and thirsty?

edit. or maybe just thirsty. water becomes valuable !

[RogueGunslinger]

That would be awful.

[solera]

At some stage of starvation and dehydration, you still die if you go link dead, I believe. One of my paranoias.

[Riev]

if everyone were to get quit ooc maybe everyone but Rangers should have to log back on hungry and thirsty?

edit. or maybe just thirsty. water becomes valuable !

Still all for giving Rangers a few tentmaking options to build shelters. Increased HP/Stamina regen inside a shelter. Everyone has access to 3 Quit OOCs before needing to return to a quit-safe room to clear.