Subguild/Guild Helpfiles - Feedback Requested

[LauraMars]

I think you might have misread my post. I didn't say it's a moot point. I said:

I'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it (the skills list).

Bolded for emphasis this time.

I'm not sure you understand the point of this thread.  We're discussing revealing skill lists, branches, and caps on the website.  What does the fact that "many players have skill lists" have to do with whether or not to put skill lists on the website?

[Rathustra]

There is currently a clear winner in the poll. I'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

[BadSkeelz]

There is currently a clear winner in the poll. I'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

Prose is good. It can be evocative, inspiring, and help introduce players to the setting.

However, it can also be ambiguous or unclear. I'd like to see Prose paragraphs (like we have now) with a clear skill list below. Fluff and Crunch.

[nauta]

Presentation-wise: I like how the PICKPOCKET help file reads (as long as it is exhaustive and consistent).  Notice how there is some suggestion of what level things cap at already in there (highlighted).  There's also references to what skills will branch (although no reference as to which skill those branch off of):

Pickpockets are masters of the art of stealing. They differ greatly from other thieves, such as burglars, in that the pickpocket's skill lies almost wholly in 'lifting' items directly from their victims.

Aside from stealing, a pickpocket's skills include some ability to climb walls, the knowledge of how to move silently in the city streets, and how to con merchants into giving lower prices than they intend to.

Some small skill with weapons is also a pickpocket's province, as well as how to beat a hasty retreat. Expert pickpockets usually learn how to become unseen and how to listen to conversations going on nearby. Later on in their careers, pickpockets can learn how to effectively use a sap and knock their mark unconscious for removal of larger items, as well as silencing guards.

Typically, pickpockets work on their own, nicking whatever they can from targets passing by. However, some pickpockets can obtain contracts to steal specific items, and very good pickpockets can develop reputations which will earn them very highly paid contracts. Fortunate pickpockets are able to obtain permanent contracts with noble houses or even from templars.

Even so, there's inconsistency.  We never learn what level a pickpocket caps at with sneak, hide, flee, etc. etc.

You could include a link at the bottom to a straight up 'list' of skills, the branches, and the caps, for those that prefer that 'view' on the data.  For myself, I don't like that, I prefer the qualitative descriptions we have currently (but with more information).

(This reminds me of the International Panel for Climate Change discussions on how to translate percentages into English words, e.g., probable, very likely, almost certain.)

[LauraMars]

However, it can also be ambiguous or unclear. I'd like to see Prose paragraphs (like we have now) with a clear skill list below. Fluff and Crunch.

Though I personally really enjoy the prose paragraphs, on thinking further about it I agree that for a new player they're awfully hard to parse out into skills, if not impossible (I sure didn't do it). Having a skill list below the prose would help a lot.  I'd rather not have percentages or numbers ever, though.  Skill caps as they appear in game would probably be enough (journeyman, master, etc) - what do others think?

[Lizzie]

There is currently a clear winner in the poll. I'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

I'd like to see it listed the way it's listed on the skills list, minus the number stuff. Or in table form, but similarly. Example (I hope this translates onto the forum code):

Code Select Expand


List for Guild_Lizzie
  contact
  barrier 
  nailpolishing
  . nail art
  . gel application
  cat-sitting
  . flea-powder application
  listen 
  . ignore
  retail
  . pen of the month sales
  . extended warrantee sales
  . . returns with no receipt


[hyzhenhok]

I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

[Narf]

I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

Also it would be a lot less work seeing as how the current helpfiles have information not directly relevant to skills that would have to be worked into a new version.

[RogueGunslinger]

Oh god, finally. Fucking finally. I love the direction staff is heading with ideas like this.

[whitt]

I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

+1

[Beethoven]

Love that this is happening. Guild/subguild skills are definitely among the "gamiest" parts of Armageddon. I say it's better to have full OOC knowledge of these gamier limitations so you can be aware of them and work around them in a way that makes IC sense. It also helps players effectively choose a guild/sub for the character concept they envision.

[Majikal]

I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

+1

Good line of thinkin.

[solera]

I like it the way it is, but reason told me that to vote for full disclosure . After all, I used to favour rangers, and even in Kurac, I assumed with enough sneaking my PC would develop the skill.
I would still like words written  above the skill list. Words give me the feels.

[flurry]

There is currently a clear winner in the poll.

I think it's important to point out that a majority (as the votes stand) do not want mastery level included. The choices offer increasingly more revealed information, so I would interpret the winner as option 3, even though a plurality (again, as things stand now) picked option 4.

I'd like to broaden the discussion in this thread by asking for ideas on how the new information could be displayed:

Currently our guild helpfiles are just prose. If we were to introduce the full list of skills in a given guild and their associated level of mastery - how would it best be displayed? Bearing in mind a helpfile needs to be readable in both a browser and a MUD client.

I like the idea of having a paragraph description, like we have now, followed by a list of skills. 

[Beethoven]

I voted for option 3 in the poll, but now I'm leaning towards option 4. A lot of the helpfiles hint at what level of mastery is achievable by each guild anyway. If we're making other things explicit, might as well go there too.

[LauraMars]

I voted for option 3 in the poll, but now I'm leaning towards option 4. A lot of the helpfiles hint at what level of mastery is achievable by each guild anyway. If we're making other things explicit, might as well go there too.

Yeah, this was exactly my thought process.  I voted for option 3, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized option 4 seemed better all around.  I'd change my vote if I could. Oh well.

[Drayab]

Also, the reason we're looking at this now is we're about to change everything. So none of you will have accurate information as far as skill lists go.  Granted, the first part with subguilds shouldn't be that dramatic a change but there may be some major movement within the guild lists.

Hold on to your assholes, kids. 

Yeah, give us the lists, tell us who masters what, for mundane classes.

Keep magickers magikal.

[Refugee]

I would suggest a separate help file for each guild that is just a straight up list. Put "[Guild Name] Skill List" under the See also for each of the prosaic guild help files.

This has the bonus of allowing players to opt out of seeing the skill list, should they so desire.

I like this.

[Hauwke]

Also, the reason we're looking at this now is we're about to change everything. So none of you will have accurate information as far as skill lists go.  Granted, the first part with subguilds shouldn't be that dramatic a change but there may be some major movement within the guild lists.

Hold on to your assholes, kids. 

Yeah, give us the lists, tell us who masters what, for mundane classes.

Keep magickers magikal.

Wait what? The way I read that was that skills are bacially being fucked with? As in basically remove skills in some places and put skills in others?

[RogueGunslinger]

Yep, they're completely changing the guild system in the future.

[Drayab]

Major movement within the guild lists sounds like a pretty big announcement to me! Yeah, sounds like there are plans in the works to (maybe?) re-shuffle who gets what and to what degree they get it. I'm sure rangers will still ranger and warriors will still chop with bone swords but... who knows?

[RogueGunslinger]

Honestly, there are so many way they can go, and almost all of them sound better. The guild system is pretty outdated.

[Drayab]

It's exciting to see so much work being done lately. It's a real flurry compared to the past. I'm happy with the current system, however. Definitely agreed they could go so many ways with it, but my (admittedly knee-jerk) reaction is to feel cynical about changes being made to a game I've played and loved for a long time. Thinking about it rationally, I have confidence that staff wouldn't make these decisions lightly. The mere fact that it's been mentioned here leads me to suppose that a whole lot has already been done staff-side. What else can I say? I guess we live in exciting times. 

[RogueGunslinger]

It's actually been mentioned before, in the sub-guild re-distribution and changes thread.

[Adhira]

We've mentioned before that it's something we're working on. Rathustra and I have been tinkering with subguilds for over  a month, close to two. Yesterday I stubbed out all the changes in a file living on ginka. Rathustra has been tinkering with helpfiles. Ness is going to be loading up files for testing and we'll hopefully be good to go with this first part soon.   As I stated when we were discussing a few subguild things 6 weeks or so ago, guilds would be next on the list.

These aren't entirely new projects, they're projects we've been throwing around in the Producer team for some time (couple of years in fact!) but haven't seen them through to the production stage.