Subguild/Guild Helpfiles - Feedback Requested

[Adhira]

Hi all,

As we move ahead with changes and additions to our current subguilds and guilds we need to update helpfiles to go with these. It seemed like an ideal time to broach with staff the question of 'detail' in our helpfiles.

I'm currently soliciting feedback from staff and would like players opinions also. Since this is a move that means a drastic change to long held philosophy of the game and once we 'go there' there's no going back.

Currently where the conversation is leaning:

- Helpfiles for subguilds and guilds will detail the starting skills.
- Heavily leaning towards also including all the branched skills and giving a complete skill list for each guild.
- Could go either way on including skill levels. We could leave those out, or we could note which ones get to 'master', or we could just list skill level caps for all.
- Right now thinking is that these should be for mundane guilds and subguilds only.

Please vote in the poll and give any feedback you have. I'd like to get the subguild helpfiles finalized soon so that we can roll out the changes, so feedback will help inform what extra info we need to put in to these!

thanks.

[TheWanderer]

It's nice when somebody doesn't have to roll the dice on their guild. They're OOC constructs and people should be able to view them as such - I feel that way about a lot of coded aspects of the game. If I have a vision for my character, I don't want it hampered by the fact that I was unaware my guild didn't have access to one of the skills, or that it or another -eventually- branched into the aforementioned skill.

This'll help new players, and people won't need to go checking out that other website for the information.

[Saellyn]

Honestly it already "basically" tells you what each guild gets - some even suggest branched skills. I like it the way it is, but I'm not actually against any of the other decisions.

[Armaddict]

This has a lot to do with your vision of the game.

I dislike people even seeing skill levels, because I think it promotes meta-play since you directly see returns on things rather than 'guessing'.   That is a derail that I've gone on several times.

However, I bring it up because me, at that level, feel that help files should help.  I didn't learn skills from helpfiles when I started the game, I had other players helping me.  I didn't learn about 'branching' until three or four characters in, and it blew my mind.  I feel that at least the basic skills should be noted, and leave some of the rest to that exploratory process that grabbed me.

However, if we're moving away from that direction in the game (which we seem to be, fairly quickly at times, both as a playerbase and in a game direction), then I imagine most people will want full disclosure.  I'm okay with up to showing all skills gained, but really would prefer the line be drawn at levels.  I might be swayed by the argument for vague representations or comparisons.

By that I mean not outright saying 'This skill to master, this skill to master, this skill to advanced', but 'They tend to get this skill early on in their career, and later in life can be regarded as competent, but by no means as well practiced as <class> or <class>'.

The comparison to other classes/subguilds fulfills the same role as describing the skill level while also displaying the boons of each class.  Of course, this may be completely unnecessary, but probably due to my roots in this game, such explicitly given information feels....wrong.

[Armaddict]

Honestly it already "basically" tells you what each guild gets - some even suggest branched skills. I like it the way it is, but I'm not actually against any of the other decisions.

Trimmed down, this mirrors my actual stance.  I feel like the current state of them does well, without giving away too much.  I'm just also trying to acknowledge that I may be in the minority.

[LauraMars]

OH MY GOD. I am so in favor of listing skills.  As a helper, the question I have been asked more than any other for years and years is "what skills does <guild/subguild> come with?"  I am often at a loss about what to say to people who ask me this, especially if the skill in question is a branchable skill that isn't subtly hinted at in the paragraph describing the guild.  I've never understood why we keep that sort of thing secret.  I understand that there's roleplay, and it's important to maintain a feeling of immersion.  I don't want to lose that at all. At the same time, someone should know if they'll one day be able to climb a wall or weave a basket when they're planning out their character, I think.

I like how our guilds are described though - it's more interesting and "storylike" than a boring branching list of skills.  I'd be sad to see that go.  Maybe the paragraph format could be kept, but just bold the skill names to make them more obvious - for example: "Warriors can use all types of weapons, from slashing and bludgeoning to chopping and piercing. As they grow skilled at these types of weapons, they learn to make use of more exotic weapons such as <whatever advanced weapon skills warriors get>."  I dunno, just a suggestion.

This is exciting.

[Case]

I'd be for listing the starting skills, and what skills can branch, but not how. If some guilds need modification to make that more sensible, cool. I think the only masteries listed should be for crafting.

[lostinspace]

I promote this for Mundane guilds and subguilds. I think that gicks, psis, and sorc subguilds shouldn't receive this treatment. I think the experimentation and learning players do on their first magick user is wonderful and can promote RP for themselves, their mentors, misc. others. I chose the option that reveals all the skills but not their maximums, but thinking on it, having maximums listed is probably good. It's better to let the person know if their final concept of master chef is going to be possible before they spend all that time skilling up cooking to max out at upper advanced.

[Delirium]

I voted option #3 (show all skills) but want to clarify that means mundanes. Mages should retain more mystery.

UNLESS you have the karma to play one without special app, then you should be able to see more detail when logged into your account.

[hyzhenhok]

List all skills, but only qualitatively describe the maximum potential in those skills compared to other guilds.

[whitt]

Still a relatively new player, this was one of my least favorite parts of trying to play this game.

First I totally overvalued the level of the skills that the sub-guild might be granting and then I choice race/guild combos that made my choice of sub-guild pointless.  Veterans already know and those able to search google can find out all this information.  Agree with hyzhenhok, that this description of caps should be in Novice/Apprentice/Journeyman qualitative way, not numbers that make no sense to anyone that doesn't know code.

I think it would be preferable for Armageddon's help files to be the first and best source for this information so that no one has to go looking for secondary sites.

Please also make it clear that if guild/subguild/racials all grant access to a skill, this doesn't change the cap for that skill, but it may allow you to use a skill without having to master another and branch.  I would have thought a race that was natural good at riding and had a guild with riding would be better than someone else of a different race.  This, over time, is not true.

[BadSkeelz]

Should not only list the skills, but also the level they reach (master, journeyman etc)

I voted for this one, albeit somewhat reluctantly.

I also agree with whitt that laying out the various racial bonuses and skills would be helpful.

Edit: Also agree with Delirium:

I voted option #3 (show all skills) but want to clarify that means mundanes. Mages should retain more mystery.

UNLESS you have the karma to play one without special app, then you should be able to see more detail when logged into your account.

Non-Mundane Guilds should remain mysterious, at least when it comes to things like spells. Mundane-skill quirks of non-mundane Guilds - like Rukkians having the best forage in the game - should be mentioned.

[KankWhisperer]

Hiding information just hurts new players. And the classic 'find out ic' makes little sense. People have been living their guild/subguild their entire lives. They should know.

[Majikal]

I voted option #3 (show all skills) but want to clarify that means mundanes. Mages should retain more mystery.

UNLESS you have the karma to play one without special app, then you should be able to see more detail when logged into your account.

Yeah, same here.

Showing players what they're going to get for guild/subguild is only going to help newer players, something I'm very much in favor of. Questions for what sub guild to pick with a character concept is something I've seen come through the helper chat quite often.

[Refugee]

I voted for showing everything. 

It's like this...

If everyone stuck to the idea of not passing around this sort of information through OOC contacts, it'd be great to keep it all very secret.  But a lot of people don't.  So I think that you might as well show everything, so that everyone has the same information.  It'll lessen the effect of the OOC networking, and help out people who are trying to bring a certain concept to life.

[Narf]

I voted for show everything.

I can't think of any real reason why this sort of thing would be kept a secret, though like most people I'd restrict this to Mundanes. As of right now the information is already in the helpfiles, but for some reason it's haphazardly available. The helpfiles already make frequent mention of which skills a guild has access to, as well as dropping hints about approximately how talented the guilds are at some skills (but not others).

I don't mind the subguild helpfiles so much, but the guild helpfiles are pretty terrible when it comes to this. It doesn't seem like the writers had any sort of plan for how much information they'd reveal and it was just all over the place. I expect that this is likely because there wasn't a plan at the time they were written. Conversely, when the subguild helpfiles were written there was a specific idea about how much information would be revealed as well as a more standardized terminology.

At the very least I'd reformat the guild help files so they matched the subguild helpfiles in information value.

[nauta]

I voted #4.  The PICKPOCKET help file actually is pretty good right now (although maybe it leaves some things out, not sure).  I'd be all for normalizing things to give that qualitative description (and not just a list).  Perhaps you could have: for more information, see here (and a link to a list for the number crunchers out there).

I agree with whitt's point about giving newbs the knowledge that the skills and caps don't stack (which is news to me, actually).  (I once made a pickpocket with acrobat thinking I'd be a badass climber, but I guess now I realize that's not the case.)

I also got burnt twice by the discovery that I won't get master on something.

[Asanadas]

When I began playing, I had no concept of the guild/subguild synergy. So, I had such wonderful combinations as Ranger/Hunter, and Merchant/House Servant, and (most successfully) Warrior/Guard.

Were these combinations complete and utter failures of the use of subguild choice? Now that I look back... yeah, they were pretty worthless choices. I made those choices because I was new, and I was ignorant about the way Armageddon is designed. Since then, I've learned much more about the game from others teaching me, and from my own research.

I've voted in the poll for all skills being listed (and their level) for mundane guilds and subguilds. The information is already out there, and easily accessible; moreover, everyone who has played Arm for more than a year knows the system inside and out. The way it is now only hurts the potential experiences of new players who approach it like I did.

Perhaps, and especially, list the skills and potential levels with extended mundane subguilds. Yeah, I know I can peruse every single ext. subguild helpfile and see the wink-nudge way their skills are already described; there was a whole thread around this itself. But that extended subguild is a three-times-a-year choice, and I don't want to gamble. I want to know what choices I can make to best create my character in the game, and enabling those choices only allows for richer, better-designed characters in my opinion.

[LauraMars]

I voted for showing everything. 

It's like this...

If everyone stuck to the idea of not passing around this sort of information through OOC contacts, it'd be great to keep it all very secret.  But a lot of people don't.  So I think that you might as well show everything, so that everyone has the same information.  It'll lessen the effect of the OOC networking, and help out people who are trying to bring a certain concept to life.

This is a great point.

You may as well show everything. There are plenty of skill lists floating around, and all that really happens is that players who try to play "by the rules" (or really, by the sociological conventions and pressures and expectations that "good players" won't look at skill lists, since knowing what skills a guild gets has never been against the rules) are at a disadvantage to people who aren't able to be pressured in that way.  It isn't fair at all.  Really, knowing what branches off of what and how high my skill level will get has never affected the immersion I feel when I tell stories with my characters. Never.

[Lizzie]

I'm fine with everyone seeing what all the non-magick and non-psionic skills are just by checking in a help file.

I don't think it's necessary to divulge which level each skill caps at. However, I think it would be a good idea to mark any skills that can be mastered (maybe bold it or put an asterisk on it). For the Merchant main guild, I'd do the opposite and just mark any skill that -cannot- be mastered (since most of them can).

I'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it.

[LauraMars]

I'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it.

"The minority" are often new players, plenty of whom I'm sure have left the game when they discover the lack of transparency and confusing and often character-wrecking nature of guild and subguild choices.  And there's no kind of legitimacy to bootleg skill lists, they're certainly not on the website or on this forum. 

In one move you can legitimize skill lists for people who don't feel like trolling around instant messenger for them and potentially keep new players who might have left otherwise. Win win, I say.

[Majikal]

I'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it.

"The minority" are often new players, plenty of whom I'm sure have left the game when they discover the lack of transparency and confusing and often character-wrecking nature of guild and subguild choices.  And there's no kind of legitimacy to bootleg skill lists, they're certainly not on the website or on this forum. 

In one move you can legitimize skill lists for people who don't feel like trolling around instant messenger for them and potentially keep new players who might have left otherwise. Win win, I say.

+1

[Asanadas]

I don't think this thread is a moot point. Enabling new players to make better decisions with their character's capacity by having skill information available through a primary source might improve their chances of both enjoying their character and sticking around. Like LauraMars said, newbies want to know what gets what. It's not against the rules to know. Put the information into a primary source so that new players will have more success with their beginning characters.

[Adhira]

Well.. I can see why you think it's a moot point, it's information that we assume everyone has as of now.  However, new players are at a disadvantage here with not having access to those lists.  Also, the reason we're looking at this now is we're about to change everything. So none of you will have accurate information as far as skill lists go.  Granted, the first part with subguilds shouldn't be that dramatic a change but there may be some major movement within the guild lists.  The question really is, do we leave it as is and say that players prefer 'not to know' and if they want to know they will seek out the information, or do we go one of the other routes.

[Lizzie]

I don't think this thread is a moot point. Enabling new players to make better decisions with their character's capacity by having skill information available through a primary source might improve their chances of both enjoying their character and sticking around. Like LauraMars said, newbies want to know what gets what. It's not against the rules to know. Put the information into a primary source so that new players will have more success with their beginning characters.

I think you might have misread my post. I didn't say it's a moot point. I said:

I'd also like to point out what is obvious to many players: the fact that many players have "the skills list" or access to it makes this entire thread kind of a moot point, except for the minority who don't know about it (the skills list).

Bolded for emphasis this time.