NPCs Never Die!

[Taven]

Bodyguards that died 80 - 130 ingame years ago, and yet still protect entirely different Nobles now..

This is mainly due to it being a hassle to set up new bodyguards where we can better spend our time making and doing more useful things.

Personally I think setting up new bodyguards isn't that hard and updating other family member npcs should have some priority as well.

As for the op it sounds like a great idea. With this version of 'morphing', it could open up a lot of other doors hopefully.

Its not super hard, you're right.

I handle two noble clans though. That means I have ~4-8 reports to read through and answer a week, most of the time at least 2 questions or requests outside of reports, animations to keep it so my clans don't feel like its only the PC's in the clan, and various ideas and plots I'm working on for those clans. That's not to mention various projects I'm handling on the side.

By the time all of that is said and done, my creativity levels are pretty low. I -could- go in and edit a guard to give nobles a new thing to look at, but it's more creativity I could better use elsewhere. Not to mention if I make one guard, every noble will want a new one - some in clans I don't manage.

With that in mind, do you think new guards would be worthwhile for immersion? I could see about putting some time into creating 2-3 more per House if the answer is yes.

I mean, for nostalgias sake, I think, keeping guards as they are is nice. Maybe put out a call for new guards through submissions and have players help write a few?

Personally, I think the easiest way to do it would be just to have a rotating set. They wouldn't get "older," but they would be switched out. Essentially, use bodyguards A B C for year #1, used bodyguards D F G year #2, and have as many sets as you'd like. Then eventually, year #3 or whatever, just go back to bodyguards A B C. While there might still be one of those long-lived PCs who never died around, they'd be in the very small minority, and they could just pretend that it was someone with a similar face.

That said, something like this would still be a large project. Saellyn's idea to send a call out to players is a good one, IMHO, but if you're talking even just 6 new guards per clan... We have 3 open noble clans (4 historically playable), 3 open GMH clans, and other assorted indie clans. That's 42 descriptions (including the non-open noble house, but not including assorted indie clans). Plus backgrounds. I guess if you restricted it to just open noble clans it would only be 18 new NPCs, but even so...

I'd agree with Akariel--Is it worth the time and effort when staff (and players!) could be working on other things?

[Jihelu]

I really don't like the
"I'd agree with Akariel--Is it worth the time and effort when staff (and players!) could be working on other things?"
Thing.
Open up a player submitted thing and it should make it, what, 50% easier? Instead of having to design it they just have to implement it or even just replace it.
That being said that still might take effort, but I doubt it will take as much.
Unless the red tape for it is so lengthy then you might as well just hire me to stand there for 10 years, I'll do it.



I like the idea of having different npcs over time.
Really makes the world feel.

[Taven]

I really don't like the
"I'd agree with Akariel--Is it worth the time and effort when staff (and players!) could be working on other things?"
Thing.
Open up a player submitted thing and it should make it, what, 50% easier? Instead of having to design it they just have to implement it or even just replace it.
That being said that still might take effort, but I doubt it will take as much.
Unless the red tape for it is so lengthy then you might as well just hire me to stand there for 10 years, I'll do it.

I like the idea of having different npcs over time.
Really makes the world feel.

I'm all for players assisting with things. I've submitted a lot of stuff and assisted with a lot of projects.

I agree that it would be neat to see different NPCs, and it might make the world feel a little more alive.

But I think that for me, it goes into the category of "this would be kind of neat" as opposed to "this would be completely awesome!!". For me, it's still something static. It's a background thing that would be nice, but it's not going to make or break the game. I would rather have the staff and player time put into something with more plot implications.

My question "Is it worth the time and effort when staff (and players!) could be working on other things?" is a good one, because there's only so much time anybody has.

If your answer is "YES! This is something that REALLY matters to me, that would make the world feel more vibrant, and alive, and I would submit all of those NPCs because I am MOTIVATED and I want to HELP SEE THIS DONE!", then that's your answer! It's okay to have a different answer then I do.

The question is still worth asking.

[Akariel]

The other thing to take note of is that we -do- make new NPC's to animate with. I have at least three that I created since I came on staff that I make sure to use to interact with my clan groups. I do -not-, however, have any intention of making them static NPC's for the clan. Static NPC's, for me, personally, are just there to remind people that the world isn't just PC's. It's to give people a view of what other people in your clan look like.

Also: Thanks for making this Taven.

[Marauder Moe]

It was years ago, but there was a series of plots in a particular clan that did kill some of the long standing bodyguard NPCs.  Eventually they were replaced (re-skinned) as new characters.  I even wrote one of them.  I makes me happy when I see him walking with a noble these days.

Anyway... this already happens?  Or used to, anyway.

[Taven]

Also: Thanks for making this Taven.

The other thing to take note of is that we -do- make new NPC's to animate with. I have at least three that I created since I came on staff that I make sure to use to interact with my clan groups. I do -not-, however, have any intention of making them static NPC's for the clan. Static NPC's, for me, personally, are just there to remind people that the world isn't just PC's. It's to give people a view of what other people in your clan look like.

I always get a kick out of seeing NPCs animated, especially clan NPCs. It always does remind me that the world is a bigger place, and gives it more context and depth.

In general, though, bodyguard NPCs are usually ones that just fade into the background. They're always there.

I really do love when PCs who have bodyguards take the time to use their command powers over them to make them more lively. I like it when those guards in the background come to the forefront more, through the player taking the effort to breathe life into them. (Staff can also do this, of course, but players are around their bodyguards infinitely more often!)

It was years ago, but there was a series of plots in a particular clan that did kill some of the long standing bodyguard NPCs.  Eventually they were replaced (re-skinned) as new characters.  I even wrote one of them.  I makes me happy when I see him walking with a noble these days.

Anyway... this already happens?  Or used to, anyway.

NPCs bodyguards sometimes do die and stay gone. I've known of NPC guards who got killed by their own Houses as a result of their incompetence (it was heartbreaking).

Usually they just get recycled through all the PCs though. For example, there's Borsail NPCs who have been around some 50 IC years and haven't changed a bit. I expect they've been around a lot, lot longer, that's just the first time I really started paying attention.

[Erythil]

I don't mind NPCs sticking around forever.  The only problem it creates is with leadership type NPCs, where I sometimes find myself wondering whether they're immortal because they haven't been replaced due to that being a bunch of work, or if they're immortal because they're...actually immortal.

[Jave]

I would personally be happy to basically re-skin and old NPC's with new ones if some of you guys submit descriptions and a background. It's a BIG effort for any one staff member to undertake. But if we crowd sourced it it wouldn't be so hard to do the cutting and pasting.

[Asanadas]

Still waiting on the special app for nobility where the PC is a psionicist bodyguard, controlling the noble like an empty husk. The noble could die, and then the bodyguard PC gets assigned a new one. It's the perfect crime.

Who's to say that's not what it's like right now? 

[manipura]

I get it that it's a bit strange to see the same NPC year after year after year, but if we got in the habit of replacing every NPC guard to reflect the face that they aren't immortal...then would the next step be replacing Vennant and Thexi and the Kadian and Salarr shopkeepers and guards, etc?  Just because they don't walk around with a PC, there are still plenty of 'immortal NPCs' in game.

Personally I don't mind it.  It helps when there are new nobles around the city and my PC would know of them, or would at least know their House.  I probably would not have met this person in game, but my character would know of them and they would likely be able to see their flashy this-and-that coloured garb from a room away.  Since I (the player) can't see their flashy, House-coloured garb from a room away, I can at least rely on seeing the NPC guards to know what Lord or Lady is down the road.  I still may not know them, but to get around the limitation of the code not letting me see the flashy garb, I can kind of use the NPC guards as markers.

[nauta]

The only ones that kind of ever bothered me were the ones that died a lot but were pretty... unique -- think Ol' Toofy in the 'rinth.  "Oh, no.  That was his cousin."  An alternative to swapping skins would be to make the sdesc/mdesc more vague.

I tend to use NPCs inside clans as just guides for dress code, and then zone them out, because their taciturn silence creeps me the fuck out.  (I noticed staff tend to animate NPCs that don't stand around forever and ever, which is a good thing.)

[Saellyn]

I thought we went over Vennants immortality. He serves drinks at the speed of light, thus, he doesn't age.

[Bushranger]

I thought we went over Vennants immortality. He serves drinks at the speed of light, thus, he doesn't age.

I thought it was because, before Tektolnes became a crazy recluse, Vennant once lost a SIZEABLE bet to the Highlord. Since Vennant didn't actually have the obsidian to pay this wager he has since had to work in the most disgusting tavern and is unable to die until Tektolnes has been paid every last coin.

[Saellyn]

..... No, no, it was a staff thing. He serves drinks so fast that he reverses his aging. Have you SEEN the number of drinks people buy at a time? Jesus. The guy is like Benjamin Button.  Benjamin Vennant.

[Erythil]

TBH I kind of like the flavor of familiar NPCs and wouldn't want to see most of them go, for the reasons above mentioned.  Oh Kayti, how many lords will you die to protect?

[roughneck]

Leave it up to the noble's player and the imm.

If you keep a noble alive for ten plus game years and think it would be cool to change your guard out, I'm sure your staff member would work with you.

If your interaction with a particular npc guard is something that you've developed and rp that you enjoy, let it ride. No problem.

Leave it up to the person it affects the most.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

We could as a playerbase pitch in to write so many, that this would become a non-issue. I for one am ready.

[Eurynomos]

The problem is, this isn't a non-issue or 'not that much work'. If you write up the descs and sdescs, hip hooray, that's actually only about 15% of the work. While it isn't rocket science to write up NPCs, it does take up time. And when we have a limited amount of time to volunteer for Staffing the game, we tend to want to use that time wisely. I think suspending your disbelief that NPCs are immortal is just as hard as when you play Skyrim and those NPCs are around forever, never aging, even if you play the game for 500 years.

As Akariel put it, NPCs are there as reminders of the NPC population surrounding the PCs. We do actually kill off NPCs and replace them with new ones, especially like Noble Bosses or GMH Bosses, etc, to try and keep it less static. If there are particularly funky old farts you think deserve to finally die and be replaced, maybe bug them in game and we'll take a look and see if we agree. But I don't see us opening up a 'Write up new skins for all the NPCs'. It's subjective, and also, a sort of endless saga.

[Eurynomos]

Leave it up to the noble's player and the imm.

If you keep a noble alive for ten plus game years and think it would be cool to change your guard out, I'm sure your staff member would work with you.

If your interaction with a particular npc guard is something that you've developed and rp that you enjoy, let it ride. No problem.

Leave it up to the person it affects the most.

This is true -- If a long-lived Noble wanted a new bodyguard, we would do that. And we have done it, even for things like a Bodyguard failing to do their job properly, so not just 'time based'.

[Adhira]

I personally like that there are some NPCs that are 'institutions' in their jobs, roles, place on the street. I'd hate to see us get in to some kind of cycle of restringing all of these NPCs just because.

We do however tag NPCs that have died so that they are not reused. This isn't an 'old age' thing, but if it was a real death that was plot related, viewed by PCs etc, then absolutely. Sometimes we kill other NPCs via plot devices (Senior Nobles for instance).  I've also had times when I was overseeing a clan group and we didn't have enough NPCs so I asked the nobles in the clan if they felt like writing up a bodyguard who later joined the rank and file of available guards.

[Suhuy]

It seems most noble and merchant houses have only a handful of guards, so you tend to see the same NPC with every new noble or merchant that comes along. And this goes on for IC decades. Longer in most cases. One solution would simply be to increase the volume from 3 or 4 NPC guards per House to, say, a dozen. You'd have less occurrences of seeing the same cookie cuttered guard again and again, allowing for a more realistic RP environment.

Another option might be to make the guards like a certain noble clan's, where their sdescs feature them essentially as a "veteran guard" rather than offering specifics to their appearance. That way they could just be a part of the background.

Many moons ago I apped a Borsail noble. When he was approved, the staff at the time instructed me to make my own NPC guard. I was actually asked to write up the entire set of descriptions as well as a background -- which I thought was pretty cool. And FYI this wasn't the single instance of player created guards.

More irksome than seemingly immortal guard NPCs to me are the important senior ranking members who never age and live hundreds and hundreds of years. For the average character who may only live a handful of real time months, this is never an issue. New faces keep getting churned out and they get to see the senior NPC for the first time. But for those with a bit more longevity under their belts, they can literally go from seeing their senior NPC uncle magically become their senior NPC nephew! It can also result in a complicated mess for those wishing to make a record of historical events when the same famous NPC is featured in one event, then in another which takes place hundreds of game years later. I'm not complaining so much as observing, and I get that some of it is simply how the game works and there's no way around it, but this felt like like a good thread to share my thoughts on the matter If this were to be seen as a problem which requires a solution, perhaps the more high profile NPCs might have something of a timer which alerts clan staff members that they're starting to reach an unreasonable lifespan. Then, if the staff handling these matters feels they have the time to invest in it, they work on making a replacement NPC.

[Lizzie]

I get that switching seniors in clans is a lot of work for very little payoff (since only a rare few ever get to interact with them, and even then - not on a regular basis). A possible bandaid to this -

have the uppermost ranks (head of house, super-senior agent directly under the head of house) be born to their rank and enter it from a very young age. So when I get my Tor noble, the head of house will have just shown up and is currently only 16 years old.

By the time the head of house is in his 50's, we will have gone through a few dozen Tor nobles, tons of plotlines, a few senate meetings - and now it's time for the old guy to retire from his position, or get PKed in a plotline - and replaced by the fresh meat.

It'll give the staff breathing room and not feel pressured to switch out upper ranking NPCs regularly, but still give us the "harsh desert lack of permanency" and possibility for enacting change through our own roleplay. Could even have it so that anyone playing a PC upper-ranking family member can submit their head of household's replacement NPC info prior to any attempts to unseat him. That way - even if you fail, that NPC is now available for the staff to switch out with at some other point - giving them one less step to do when the time comes.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While I'm rather late to this discussion, a simpler solution for impacting the visual WTF that comes from seeing these guys would be simply changing the long/short desc. For instance, the rangy, bearded man could also be the rugged, black-haired man and the lanky, tan man. That's two fields to change rather than an entire character. If you include a name change, that's three fields.

[Lizzie]

While I'm rather late to this discussion, a simpler solution for impacting the visual WTF that comes from seeing these guys would be simply changing the long/short desc. For instance, the rangy, bearded man could also be the rugged, black-haired man and the lanky, tan man. That's two fields to change rather than an entire character. If you include a name change, that's three fields.

You'd also have to change his age and mdesc, otherwise the problem with senior NPCs in clan or even wandering around the city is still a problem. Assess -v shows "he appears ancient for his race" when your character is 70, and yet the NPC's mdesc shows that he's youthful, spry, no scars, not feeble or frail looking, basically the same desc written up when he was supposed to appear as a 30-year-old even though by this point he's over 100.

[John]

Please don't take Vennant away. We've already lost Clint from Trader's Inn. Let's not lose Vennant as well. I say no to NPCs dying or getting replaced (except where appropriate such as through a dramatic grisly death).