Player retention and you: brainstorming

[RogueGunslinger]

You sound like you need to take a break from Armageddon after a character death. Wait to really get inspired to play again, don't force yourself.

[Narf]

As time goes on, each encounter, similar in nature starts to wear thin.  You can only play 'prey' for so long that you can't help put feel the deck is stack against you. You start to feel pigeon holed, ganged up on, and that this will forever and always be your place in this game.  It's heart breaking, especially when you read such awesome, wonderful things other players got to do, see, and be apart of. Yet your own experiences are colored by being pounded in the ground before you could even walk.

I had six longlived characters in a row whereby five of them died in almost exactly the same way. Finally I just started designing my characters from the ground up so that they wouldn't die in that particular way just because I couldn't take it anymore. It wasn't the people that PKed me who were at fault, they had no way of knowing that I'd had characters die to the same circumstances so many times. That meant it was pretty much up to me to figure out how to solve the problem.

And you can. You just have to realize that you might have to do some metagame thinking through on what path you want your character to follow during the design process to minimize the chance that you'll end in the way you've become sick of.

And you only have to design one or two characters with that in mind. After you've died to various random things for a bit you'll be ready to climb back on that horse! (and by horse I mean PK trap).

[Dresan]

One of the things that I miss from tuluk was the partisanship between nobles and commoners. This allowed commoners to stay independent but still be allowed to work with sponsored roles, and potentially get involved in political stuff. All without having to join clans or sacrifice too much freedom.  This also allowed quite a few unique jobs to pop up too.

A lot of people liked playing independents in Tuluk, and the place offered some nice option in order to get involved. This catered to a lot of players who didn't have a lot of time to play, and also to players like me who didn't always like joining oppressive clans. I am not specifically saying Byn or AoD should change but would like to keep seeing opportunities for people who aren't in clans to get involved.

On the bright side, I think I've begun seeing a couple of opportunities begin popping up here and there. For example, RPTs that are more open for everyone to join instead of just people from specific clans.  

[Iiyola]

One of the things that I miss from tuluk was the partisanship between nobles and commoners. This allowed commoners to stay independent but still be allowed to work with sponsored roles, and potentially get involved in political stuff. All without having to join clans or sacrifice too much freedom.  This also allowed quite a few unique jobs to pop up too.

This actually happens. Just not officially.

[hopeandsorrow]

You sound like you need to take a break from Armageddon after a character death. Wait to really get inspired to play again, don't force yourself.

This is a sentiment I can understand and good advice.  Which at times I do, taking months away from the game.  In the same breath I also have regrets when I do take extended breaks or 'quit' the game for awhile.  What did I miss? What if I just would of toughed it out over a couple more characters?

What keeps me from permanently shelving it is I've yet to experience things I want to experience in the game, classes I'd like to play or area's I want to see.

It's the tragic nature of the brutality of arm, that makes the experiences I do have rewarding and yet heart breaking.

Getting so close to being able to see that area or so close to being a part of something interesting, just to be cut down.  Close to notoriety but PK'd back into obscurity.

Again I'm envious of those players who have resources and knowledge that allows them to experience those things.  And I'm melancholy that I'll only ever get vague idea's of what those experiences are like.  But I've have at best a couple of erratic years under my belt, while most at lest from what I get from the GDB have years, perhaps decades of play time.

[Armaddict]

Honestly, I think people underestimate how much the 'veterans' are willing to teach via IC means.

I can't talk about everything on the GDB.  But that doesn't mean I can't take you out and show you what I know, provided your character show an interest in learning things.  Keep an eye out for people who seem to know what they're doing, and stick through the suspicion stage, and I think you'd find a lot of people willing to pass on their knowledge.  It brings me a certain amount of pleasure to do it.

Also...if you're usually losing characters to PK, consider yourself well-versed in the game.  When you stop being afraid of the mundane, and it's only other intelligent players who are able to get you, you're in a good spot.  In my opinion, at least. 

[hopeandsorrow]

Honestly, I think people underestimate how much the 'veterans' are willing to teach via IC means.

I can't talk about everything on the GDB.  But that doesn't mean I can't take you out and show you what I know, provided your character show an interest in learning things.  Keep an eye out for people who seem to know what they're doing, and stick through the suspicion stage, and I think you'd find a lot of people willing to pass on their knowledge.  It brings me a certain amount of pleasure to do it.

Also...if you're usually losing characters to PK, consider yourself well-versed in the game.  When you stop being afraid of the mundane, and it's only other intelligent players who are able to get you, you're in a good spot.  In my opinion, at least. 

Thanks, It is good to know I'm not losing character (often) to code or the world.  Although I must admit I was neither graceful nor intelligent in my last encounter, but if I go forward with playing, will act more appropriately and intelligently.

[Dresan]

One of the things that I miss from tuluk was the partisanship between nobles and commoners. This allowed commoners to stay independent but still be allowed to work with sponsored roles, and potentially get involved in political stuff. All without having to join clans or sacrifice too much freedom.  This also allowed quite a few unique jobs to pop up too.

This actually happens. Just not officially.

Just about anything can happen with almost any aspect in the game with the right people in place.

In allanak, anything remotely resembling partisanship takes quite a bit of knowledge and skill to accomplish, but the most important thing is luck. You need luck to have the right people in the right place, luck to be of any use, and in my case, be lucky enough not to stumble upon a hole and fall to your death right after you've managed to get that elusive patron. 

As I said, its one of the things about Tuluk I really miss.

[ibusoe]

and other thankless tasks not to mention paying for the game to continue running with their hard earned

Please stop reminding us that you guys pay for the game.  Of course you do, that's how games work.  Either accept pay for perks (which would cause many of us to leave), or accept advertising revenue (which would break your license) or just pay for it. 

It's not eliciting the desired response from players.

[Adhira]

and other thankless tasks not to mention paying for the game to continue running with their hard earned

Please stop reminding us that you guys pay for the game.  Of course you do, that's how games work.  Either accept pay for perks (which would cause many of us to leave), or accept advertising revenue (which would break your license) or just pay for it. 

It's not eliciting the desired response from players.

You know... as one of those people that does pay actual money for the game I don't believe I've ever come out and 'reminded' you all that I do that. This was a comment by a staff member, it was his own personal comment. Please stop taking commentary by one person as speaking for all.

I pay for the game because I choose too. Simple as that. I'm not asking you to appreciate it, I'm not asking you to pay for anything.   I don't feel that my putting money towards this hobby makes me any better or more deserving than anyone else, in any way, or that the fact that I have means I deserve your respect.  However, I don't think that it deserves your accusations and censure either. Your judgment on this issue isn't getting the desired response from me.

[Desertman]

and other thankless tasks not to mention paying for the game to continue running with their hard earned

Please stop reminding us that you guys pay for the game.  Of course you do, that's how games work.  Either accept pay for perks (which would cause many of us to leave), or accept advertising revenue (which would break your license) or just pay for it. 

It's not eliciting the desired response from players.

You know... as one of those people that does pay actual money for the game I don't believe I've ever come out and 'reminded' you all that I do that. This was a comment by a staff member, it was his own personal comment. Please stop taking commentary by one person as speaking for all.

I pay for the game because I choose too. Simple as that. I'm not asking you to appreciate it, I'm not asking you to pay for anything.   I don't feel that my putting money towards this hobby makes me any better or more deserving than anyone else, in any way, or that the fact that I have means I deserve your respect.  However, I don't think that it deserves your accusations and censure either. Your judgment on this issue isn't getting the desired response from me.

I don't think anyone was saying that the people paying for the game are asking to be praised for it.

I think what was being said was that other staff mentioning it gives the appearance of a culture subtly hinting that praise should be given....even if it isn't asked for.

While that isn't the case, it is a valid point.

Mentioning it on any front probably isn't the best idea because it starts conversations like this....if nothing else.

Third party outside unbiased opinion.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah "unpaid volunteers" was so common a saying it became a meme.

Edit: Though i suppose that's a little different than "staff pay", in retrospect.

[Harmless]

"Accept pay" is a harsh term. Armageddon could legally solicit donations if it were needed, no? It'd easily survive. The money is a moot point, and I am sure the producers/staff pay out of their personal wealth just to keep things simple.

[Adhira]

The money is a moot point, and I am sure the producers/staff pay out of their personal wealth just to keep things simple.

[RogueGunslinger]

That doesn't change the fact that seeing staff say they're the ones paying for the game, or that they're volunteers can put a sour taste in a players mouth or make them feel like they owe staff something.

I agree though. Both that who's paying for what doesn't matter to me(though I'm appreciative, thanks!), and that if money ever became a problem, I'm sure Armageddon would be fine on donations.

[wizturbo]

The operating costs of a MUD have to be pretty trivial.  The time investment is leaps and bounds a greater cost.  

I think it would be fucking awesome if Armageddon has one paid position...a full-time coder.  I feel like the tech-debt on Armageddon is massive, and having someone work on the code full-time for even one year would make a significant impact.  But full-time engineers ain't cheap.

[Lizzie]

The operating costs of a MUD have to be pretty trivial.  The time investment is leaps and bounds a greater cost.  

I think it would be fucking awesome if Armageddon has one paid position...a full-time coder.  I feel like the tech-debt on Armageddon is massive, and having someone work on the code full-time for even one year would make a significant impact.  But full-time engineers ain't cheap.

They can't have a paid coder, or a paid anything on staff. This is a DIKU-derivative game and it's against the copyright of the codebase for anyone on staff to get paid for it. If they want it to be a DIKU-deriv, it has to be strictly unpaid hobby work. The only way Arm will ever be able to take in income (as opposed to donations to cover the cost of the server), is if they shut down and re-open with a brand new non-deriv codebase.

[Jave]

Please stop reminding us that you guys pay for the game.  Of course you do, that's how games work.  Either accept pay for perks (which would cause many of us to leave), or accept advertising revenue (which would break your license) or just pay for it. 

It's not eliciting the desired response from players.

I had to take a moment to formulate a response that didn't sound angry to me, because that was the emotional response your post elicited from me.

Please try to imagine how this opinion appears in any other context.

Someone goes to a party. They complain about the party. Someone at the party reminds them that the person hosting the party put effort and money into putting it together for them, and they reply with "Please stop reminding me that the host paid for the party, of course they did that's how parties work. Either put a door charge in (at which point I wouldn't come), work out a different way to pay for it, or just fork up the money because you reminding me isn't eliciting the desired response."

How well do you think that would go over?

As Adhira said, she has never come out and asked anyone for praise for the largely thankless time/effort/money she's put into the game. I can't recall a single instance of any admin or producer doing so. I was mentioning it, because as a new storyteller I was just recently made aware of precisely how much behind the scenes work it takes and felt compelled to bring it to the attention of the player base to share that new-found perspective.

Derision for that work was the last thing I was expecting to read in response.

[Is Friday]

Ibusoe: your negativity makes me dislike the GDB.

[ShaLeah]

Back on subject:

I think Arm provides for a certain group of gamers and it's not gonna be everyone's mug of ale, I wanna keep the good ones we lose much more than I wanna just amass numbers of newbs. Crackageddon has a habit of...  becoming habit forming.

1) Staff interaction is crucial in the beginning of a player's career I think. 
2) Staff interaction, to me, is also wayyyyy more preferable to staff PLOTS. I prefer you to throw wrenches and what nows into my plots rather than make me feel forced to go in your direction.
3) Allow players to play their own offspring when notable characters. I know a Sun Runner who had like 15 kids and the player would do justice playing any one of his daughters OR his one son. Don't even get me started on all of LoDs/Mekedas kids.
4) Change Sorcerer back.
5) Generic Shit Stirrer Staff Position - Hire a few staff (one for every time zone) to stir shit up, hop into npcs/create characters and fuck with people online, that's all they do, make npcs/chars come to life and start shit. No rhyme, no reason, no real plot (how is the player gonna know any different?) You get to watch people and prod them with your stick of awesomeness.
6) Mudsex with Staff ('nough said).


Only one of the above is a joke.

[Riev]

Piggybacking on Shal, here, staff interaction in the early days helps people get hooked. Because its staffs job to 'make the world react accordingly and realistically', their presence affects how a newbie is going to interpret the game.

I've seen newbies freak out when Vennant starts talking to them.
I've seen even veteran players eye that Salarri Lieutenant with skepticism and awe.
I personally have felt "I AM important to this game" when staff do something with me.

The shit-stirrer isn't a terrible idea. Anyone that remembers a certain red-headed elf fucking with people certainly remembers a hilarious time in 'Nak. Whether its loading up a semi-competent but not skillful assassin trying to kill a Byn Sergeant in the Gaj and failing, or animating a beggar tugging on a noble's garb, something that makes the world come alive for people. And because MOST newbies hang out in bars and taverns, it'd be a great place to start, I'd think. You know, because all the veterans "have better things to do than tavern sit"

[nauta]

3) Allow players to play their own offspring when notable characters. I know a Sun Runner who had like 15 kids and the player would do justice playing any one of his daughters OR his one son. Don't even get me started on all of LoDs/Mekedas kids.

That's really specific, but I'm in agreement.  Here's a positive benefit from it: it allows for more IG lore to develop -- you can have, in theory, the grandson of Whomever, who, since they know the stories of Whomever, can tell those stories around the campfire.  (I'm a lore junkie.)

Also I think one of your sentences slipped alignment, so I fixed it for you:

5) Generic Shit Stirrer Staff Position - Hire a few staff (one for every time zone) to stir shit up, hop into npcs/create characters and fuck with people online, that's all they do, make npcs/chars come to life and start shit. No rhyme, no reason, no real plot (how is the player gonna know any different?) You get to watch people and prod them with your stick of awesomeness.
6) Mudsex with Staff ('nough said). You get to watch people and prod them with your stick of awesomeness.

[Rokal]

Back on subject:

I think Arm provides for a certain group of gamers and it's not gonna be everyone's mug of ale, I wanna keep the good ones we lose much more than I wanna just amass numbers of newbs. Crackageddon has a habit of...  becoming habit forming.

1) Staff interaction is crucial in the beginning of a player's career I think. 
2) Staff interaction, to me, is also wayyyyy more preferable to staff PLOTS. I prefer you to throw wrenches and what nows into my plots rather than make me feel forced to go in your direction.
3) Allow players to play their own offspring when notable characters. I know a Sun Runner who had like 15 kids and the player would do justice playing any one of his daughters OR his one son. Don't even get me started on all of LoDs/Mekedas kids.
4) Change Sorcerer back.
5) Generic Shit Stirrer Staff Position - Hire a few staff (one for every time zone) to stir shit up, hop into npcs/create characters and fuck with people online, that's all they do, make npcs/chars come to life and start shit. No rhyme, no reason, no real plot (how is the player gonna know any different?) You get to watch people and prod them with your stick of awesomeness.
6) Mudsex with Staff ('nough said).


Only one of the above is a joke.

Got to agree with you here, the staff interaction I got on my first few months is one of the main reasons I stick to arm, I may not be as active as I used to be due to IRL, but I'm really looking forward to whatever comes in the future.

So, got to hand it to the staff - thanks for the awesome experience.
you guys made the IC awesome, and helped out a ton in the OOC sense.

[nauta]

5) Generic Shit Stirrer Staff Position - Hire a few staff (one for every time zone) to stir shit up, hop into npcs/create characters and fuck with people online, that's all they do, make npcs/chars come to life and start shit. No rhyme, no reason, no real plot (how is the player gonna know any different?) You get to watch people and prod them with your stick of awesomeness.

What if this were a position available to a select/vetted group of players (like builder).  You'd get a PC with zero skills and shit stats (so unplayable); you could multi-play; you'd have a certain level of trust/explicit expectations set on the role (pure flavour); perhaps you could never leave the city; etc.

[ShaLeah]

You may all shower me with praise.

5) Generic Shit Stirrer Staff Position - Hire a few staff (one for every time zone) to stir shit up, hop into npcs/create characters and fuck with people online, that's all they do, make npcs/chars come to life and start shit. No rhyme, no reason, no real plot (how is the player gonna know any different?) You get to watch people and prod them with your stick of awesomeness.

What if this were a position available to a select/vetted group of players (like builder).  You'd get a PC with zero skills and shit stats (so unplayable); you could multi-play; you'd have a certain level of trust/explicit expectations set on the role (pure flavour); perhaps you could never leave the city; etc.

The short, fat puertorrican screams, in NewYawk accented English, "Nooooooooooooo!" [/overdramatictelenovelaresponse]

I want a line drawn between staff and players personally. I don't want players with staff privileges personally. One of the reasons I really really dislike the players/helpers/builders (whatever) having rights to delete or edits GDB posts.

A while back I suggested a mentorship program, that was intended for helpers. Like a newb logs in, you get an alert, your mentor character stalks the newb and leads him in the right direction. This would work more in the immediate creation process, so we could guarantee that the newb isn't coming into an empty game so to speak.