Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Malken]

Yeah, English being my 2nd language, if there's a mix up it's probably my fault.

But I'm not sure where the mix up is, I was saying that what Taijan was describing as a genuine lack of time to do everything they and we want done on Armageddon sounds a lot better than the usual "We're volunteers!" we often hear.

Yeah, what Lauramars says

[Taijan]

Oh!  

Okay, Taijan is on the same page now.

[nauta]

Oh!  

Okay, Taijan is on the same page now.

Technically, there was a page roll.

[Case]

staff are just people and players are just people. Us and them is a horrible illusion

[Norcal]

staff are just people and players are just people. Us and them is a horrible illusion

As far as I know, staff all were players at one point, and many still are. Perceived staff attitudes, strengths, weaknesses, behavior and style are probably pretty representative of what is found in the playerbase as a whole. 

[Clearsighted]

[There was some mean stuff here. Chill out. - Mordiggian]

Re: Request tool

In the olden days (not really all that long ago), character reports and such were delivered to an animated NPC superior if you were in a clan, and were either cast into a void or maybe emailed to staff if you were unclanned, I guess. I never reported things back in those days.  When I was giving those reports, they were kinda nice. It let my character feel like they were building a relationship with their direct superior and get real time feedback.

Honestly, the game was a lot more fun back then. I know the request tool is here to stay. But I'll remain convinced that it's done more to separate players and staff than anything else.

This is only human, it feels unfair to the person on the receiving end, whether justified or not, and is magnified by the veil of secrecy, which, in a game like this, is necessary. In a game where there is significant emotional investment... this can cause a good deal more frustration in players with a lower tolerance (usually newer) and inspire them to find something else to do, or, in the event something seemingly more unfair happens, even a well adjusted player, even a stoic player may choose to move on.

Not surprisingly, some people take issue with others wielding power, authority, secrecy, and judgement over them.  It doesn't matter how noble the intentions are, or the direct form it takes (I'm convinced some of the account note vitriol is just a proxy for a general sense of resentment), it's going to ruffle some feathers.  Whether or not this is finally a problem worth addressing is up to the staff, but I'd say it is.

I don't think the staff are doomed when it comes to this problem, but it may take a pretty big cultural shift.

• Understand that when players get upset about stuff, it's probably because they're passionate about this game, their character, or whatever.  Try and channel that passion, rather than shoot it down with style and sarcasm.
• Most staff should focus more on facilitating, less on enforcement.  Code, and tell stories.
• Get out of the business of RP critiquing entirely.  We can do workshops on the GDB or in special in-game sessions if people feel really strongly about wanting feedback.
• Account and player notes should be based exclusively on objective data.
• Set up a thorough enforcement policy for offenses that steps outside the veil of staff-player secrecy and empowers players.  Set up a system of warnings that ranges from, "We noticed something fishy; feel free to submit an explanation to your clan staff," to "This is your third and final warning, if this behavior continues, a formal complaint will be sent to Nyr and the enforcement team."  If you're going to accuse someone of doing something wrong, you have to bring them into the conversation as an equal partner.  Do it person to person, not player to great and powerful Oz. Do it on Teamspeak, or Skype if desired.  Include an appeals process, and an option for impartial third party mediation, not a peer, friend, and co-volunteer of the great and powerful Oz.
• Engage with players differently, enable players to assist with the game in ways that share the workload.  Minimize the distinction between player and staff and give players the benefit of the doubt based on their experience and participation.  How about: player, volunteer, assistant, builder, legend, storyteller, administrator, producer
• Promote staff and player engagement outside of clan management.  How about regular clan staff-player meetings, just to shoot the shit during the World Series, or to talk about different aspects of the clan on an OOC basis?

This is a great post. It's tragic that it'll be lost in the thread spam and never actually implemented. Because this is what the game needs. But as Kank said, it would require a cultural shift, and I don't think many staff actually want a cultural shift. They seem to just want to let people vent for a bit, then go back to business as usual.

Judging from 99% of the staff responses in this thread (especially the most recent ones), they are bemused by any criticism and convinced they're doing everything exactly as it should be done.

Well. So be it. I posted in here why I left, and why many others have. If it makes people still playing feel better to deride and object to those reasons and go back to what they were doing, then there you have it. But if you want to know the REAL kind of structural changes that would convince past jaded players to really give Armageddon a second chance? Then Old Kank pretty much nailed it.

[Mordiggian]

Oooooh boy.

I think this discussion is now going unpleasant places!

If you can't play nice, you can't play at all.

[Mordiggian]

Unlocking this for now.

You are welcome to disagree or object to the way the game is staffed. You are welcome to be critical of the ideas of staff or other players.

You aren't welcome to harass other players because you dislike them or their ideas, regardless of what those ideas are.

Thanks friends.

[Jihelu]

Unlocking this for now.

You are welcome to disagree or object to the way the game is staffed. You are welcome to be critical of the ideas of staff or other players.

You aren't welcome to harass other players because you dislike them or their ideas, regardless of what those ideas are.

Thanks friends.

See baby this is the shit you gotta do to be that first world country white stuff I'm proud of you this was a good solution to the problem I think this might be a run on sentence.



We need to focus less on calling 'shit' out and calling 'game shit/staff shit (Not just not liking people)/issues out"
Or something.

[wizturbo]

When it comes to NPC superior animations I agree that having them is a time sync...  however, they added ALOT to the role.  I'm not opposed to making these animations infrequent because of the time sync, but they've virtually been eliminated as far as I can tell.  Having a face to face meeting with your superior once every two IC years (every 3 months) isn't much to ask in my opinion...  But then again, I'm not staff, so maybe these things take more effort than I'm able to realize from my perspective.

[seidhr]

It's fine to disagree with people and staff if you do it respectfully.

If you just want to sh*t on the carpet, you can go start your own Internet community and do it there.   

...cuz we don't want to clean up after you.  Tee hee.

[Fujikoma]

As to what Case said, I've heard something similar before. I was having a civil political discussion at a bar with a rather charsimatic fellow, and he said something that changed the way I look at things. He's like, "Look here, you're subscribing to an us vs. them perspective. There is no us, there is no them, there's just people. The us vs. them game is a game those in power use to control you, I know you're smarter than that, don't fall for it.".

Also, the misunderstanding as to Malken's post highlights Taijan's point about needing not just a second set of eyes, but a third, maybe a fourth. I know whenever I'm writing, drawing, making music, despite the fact that I destroy most of it, some of it I do get a second or third opinion on before destroying it... sometimes my sketchbook gets stolen or the audio copied in the process, however.

Please, Clearsighted, don't get defensive in response, this is a unique opportunity to have a productive and civil conversation with staff, something some of us have been waiting for for a looooong time. Don't ruin it for everyone with hostility. Yes, Old Kank's post is constructive, yours is, well, not, please try and agree (or disagree) in a constructive manner, rather than making assumptions as to staff motivation and perspective. I just jumped into this conversation, and I'm not going to read a bunch of pages back, but as far as I can tell things are veering toward good things.

[Fujikoma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQihaRQBfI

[Ktavialt]

Just posting to say I've been MIA for a year and a half not to do with anything about the game, but because I have been busy as hell, and also my laptop broke (which helped me focus on RL stuff causing me to eventually become busy as hell) and all I got at home is an iPad and I'm not playing this on an IPad... or at work.

So, game was still fun when I stopped.

Plus, getting older, regretting blowing loads of time on a (very very very very well designed and fun) text game instead of other stuff.  That plays into it too.  I yearn to return from time to time.

[wizturbo]

Great post Old Kank.  If I had to choose three of the ideas you listed here as priorities, I'd choose these:

• Understand that when players get upset about stuff, it's probably because they're passionate about this game, their character, or whatever.  Try and channel that passion, rather than shoot it down with style and sarcasm.
• Most staff should focus more on facilitating, less on enforcement.  Code, and tell stories.
• Promote staff and player engagement outside of clan management.  How about regular clan staff-player meetings, just to shoot the shit during the World Series, or to talk about different aspects of the clan on an OOC basis?

The first two are pretty self explanatory, the third one seems like pure gold to me.  There's a reason workplaces encourage team members to go out and have a drink after work, or plan team building events.  It's so people build an "out of office" rapport with one another.   Anyway we can simulate that would go a long way in improving the community at large.

[Fujikoma]

Yeah, I love the post myself, and I think sometimes we have some very good, passionate players, who could stand to take the player advice section to heart. All these points taken together, and I hope to see the ninja-edited version once he's done, would cause some very needed change in player-staff interactions, it would be idealistic to say I'd hope it'd fix all problems, but I think it'd steer clear of a lot of unneeded and unwanted conflict and waste.

[Taven]

Understand that when players get upset about stuff, it's probably because they're passionate about this game, their character, or whatever.  Try and channel that passion, rather than shoot it down with style and sarcasm.

I agree with this. I don't think staff always shoots down players when they are upset, by any means. But it has happened before, and I think taking a step back and remembering that the player is upset is worth it. That said, I agree with your end points about what players should be doing. Stop trying to have the last word, and also... Remember that staff are people too. If you can, wait to make your request until you're not angry. Seriously, a calm, well-thought out complaint or response to staff is only going to benefit you. Extra angry emotion doesn't do anything positive (even if I know it's super tempting sometimes).

Most staff should focus more on facilitating, less on enforcement.  Code, and tell stories.

I guess I don't get where the idea comes from that staff isn't doing this already. You talk about the need to change culture--Isn't the player assumption that staff is somehow just sitting around, doing nothing productive, just waiting to punish people one of the ideas that could use changing? I mean, we've had staff working on introducing a lot of new things lately. I also feel like there have been RPTs in the world of late that have been a result of staff actions.

Could staff do more with plots like some players have suggested? Sure, some of the plot suggestions here have been good. But the way your suggestion is phrased makes it sound like they're not already coding, animating, and telling stories. That's just not the case.

Get out of the business of RP critiquing entirely.  We can do workshops on the GDB or in special in-game sessions if people feel really strongly about wanting feedback.

Well, I don't know if that suggestion will work either. I guess it depends on what you mean by "RP critique". Are we talking account notes? Are we talking karma review feedback?

Account notes help staff keep track of what a player is doing, positive and negative. That's important.

Karma reviews are normally about a player wanting to know if they've earned more karma. Usually, this involves feedback on their RP. I mean, if I submitted a karma review and was declined, I'd certainly want feedback, and to know why, and to see how I could improve. I can only imagine other people feel the same way.

So I guess I'm just not sure what you're getting at here.

Account and player notes should be based exclusively on objective data.

I agree that the tone in some notes could be used to make them more neutral, but I don't know if it's possible to have a note that everyone agrees is "objective". That's just the nature of the beast.

Set up a thorough enforcement policy for offenses that steps outside the veil of staff-player secrecy and empowers players.  Set up a system of warnings that ranges from, "We noticed something fishy; feel free to submit an explanation to your clan staff," to "This is your third and final warning, if this behavior continues, a formal complaint will be sent to Nyr and the enforcement team."  If you're going to accuse someone of doing something wrong, you have to bring them into the conversation as an equal partner.  Do it person to person, not player to great and powerful Oz. Do it on Teamspeak, or Skype if desired.  Include an appeals process, and an option for impartial third party mediation, not a peer, friend, and co-volunteer of the great and powerful Oz.

Well, okay, I like the idea of what you're getting at--The idea is to avoid accusations, to start approachable, let people explain, and then ramp it up as needed. That's a great goal.

I don't know that there could be a comprehensive policy for every infraction, but I guess there could be an attempt at opening up a conversation in a specific way.

Engage with players differently, enable players to assist with the game in ways that share the workload.  Minimize the distinction between player and staff and give players the benefit of the doubt based on their experience and participation.  How about: player, volunteer, assistant, builder, legend, storyteller, administrator, producer

In what ways are you hoping that this system would better able players to assist?

Staff do put out general calls for projects when they need general submissions. Sometimes they ask players for assistance on this or that as well, when they're hoping for it. In addition, there was a "Builder" rank added for those who aren't staff but are helping staff make things--That new rank was a direct result of player's requesting to help.

I'm all for ways to contribute more, I'm just not sure what system would work better or what contributions you want people to be able to make.

Promote staff and player engagement outside of clan management.  How about regular clan staff-player meetings, just to shoot the shit during the World Series, or to talk about different aspects of the clan on an OOC basis?

I think this happens sometimes. Anybody else remember when staff got together IRL on the staff retreat, and advertised how they were going to be drunk on Teamspeak? Good times.

Maybe this could be done more often, but I think it's seen some activity already.

[Fujikoma]

He's implied he's still in the ninja-edit phase, that said...

I thought it important to take note of because of what players can take away from it, and how they might communicate with staff. Now, Old Kank is not proposing anything untested or unproven, positive reinforcement works astonishingly well on social animals like canines, I don't see why a punishment culture need persist, unless, the circumstances absolutely require it. Staff are in a position of power, it's causing discontent to some people, who, have no desire to be in power but see the bile and blood of the past transactions.

I mean, then there's newer players, who, if they aren't put off by the elitist attitudes of our current players, may soon be, subjected to the futility of disputing with those well established... I mean, what do you expect to come from that? Oh, here's a kudos for playing your role to the hilt, here's a sprinkle of appreciation, and here's a heaping helping of shit, hope you can swim. I'm sure the ones who persevere feel stronger for it, but I think we could do for more smaller plots that make newer players feel more involved, because only an idiot thinks they're not going to be viciously murdered one day. I'm not saying everyone who drowns is someone worth saving, only a few of them.

[Riev]

but I think we could do for more smaller plots that make newer players feel more involved,

I think this warrants a "second". Nobody is saying code changes and plots aren't happening. Of course they are. But they're not happening to me (me as in, the general person complaining about these things). In 10 years of playing this game, I think I've seen an animation maybe... not even a handful of times, personally. And the few times I've wished up because I need something, it takes 20-30 minutes and often ends with a "Nobody is around that is able to help with that".

Now imagine a newbie, who hears you can 'wish all' and get some staff/wizard interaction to make the world come alive, but they can't. Because plots. Because sponsored roles. Because other players. Smaller plots that they can be a part of, that aren't "elitist" and that anyone can be a part of just by asking. MOST vets are pretty cool with understanding "This guy is new, lets let him in a bit" but not everyone is, and not everyone really understands how to "get attention".

Now. Seriously. Pay attention to me.

[Fujikoma]

One of my first actions IG, seriously, was to try and mark you as my territory, I almost got tossed into the cesspool.

[Fujikoma]

I giggled hysterically.

[Fujikoma]

Reply, um, can we yet mention the G guy?

[Inks]

Sober up

[Old Kank]

<lots of stuff>

TL;DR:  Right now the divide between players and staff is black and white, Us and Them, but I think we should stop thinking in such terms.  I think we should try and preserve story secrets, but spread administrative power and authority around to the community at large, and restrict rule enforcement to a very select few people in very select circumstances.

If you want to get philosophical, light a bowl and have a seat: 

People frequently say, "staff are players too," but what's the difference between players and staff?  Staff are... what?  More knowledgeable?  More mature?  More creative?  Better writers?  Better administrators?  Better players?  (And what would that entail, to be a better player?)  Or are they simply volunteers who have been chosen, and granted access to the game's secrets and authorities?

The simple truth is that staff members don't have a uniquely defining trait beyond the access and authority they've been granted, and I don't think many staff members would claim otherwise.  But this gets tricky now, because staff try and wield power - benevolently OR maliciously - over other players, without any intrinsic authority.  They're just players, after all.

Staff get into rocky territory when they try and judge people.  Some people just don't like being judged.  Some people don't like not being judged.  It's often a lose-lose position to be in, and once you put yourself in that position, you have dig deeper to defend it.  I think staff should get out of the business of being judges.

For an example of what I'm getting at, scroll back a few posts to where a Storyteller moderated a post and temporarily locked the thread.  Let me ask you something: Regardless of whether or not the actions were justified, why is a GM - a guy who's job in this community is to facilitate stories - trying to dictate what can and can't be said?  Remember, I'm not asking whether it was right or wrong.  All I'm asking is why a Storyteller is also a forum moderator?  Is it because storytellers make good forum moderators, or is it because it's a job that needs doing, and Storyteller is just a fancy title for low-level crowd controller?  Would it have made a difference if the post was moderated by a player?  Bonus follow-up question:  Does being a jerk on a forum mean you're a "bad player," and should it have ramifications for a game that is, ostensibly, a separate entity?  And should cops in schools help teachers enforce classroom rules?

Moving away from authority, let's talk contributions.  Currently, staff seem to micro-manage player contributions.  Why?  The administrative response is probably, "We need to restrict these things for quality control and/or time management purposes," but that is so short-sighted.  Think about players as staff-in-training, or volunteers without story secrets, and then we can have an entirely different set of conversations.  Instead of players asking, "Staff, can you do this or that," players can start stepping up to the plate themselves.

[Nergal]

Regarding judging players: We don't really have criteria for judging players beyond whether they follow the documentation and play a character that is compelling. All kinds of roleplaying styles can achieve this. I enjoy watching PCs who are heavy on dialogue but keep emotes short. I enjoy watching PCs with long and meaningful emotes. I enjoy watching PCs who use think and feel extensively. I enjoy reading the occasional biography entry. But most of all, I enjoy a PC that just fits into the game world perfectly. Someone who's read all about Zalanthas and follows it completely, even if it's somehow to their PC's detriment. I enjoy watching veterans do this and I enjoy watching newbies beginning to grasp this. That, to me, is being a good roleplayer in Armageddon, and I don't judge anyone's RP beyond that. This matches our broad criteria on "ability to roleplay" karma (note that you don't have to hit all these points to prove your ability to roleplay, they're just broad guidelines):

-         Proven ability to take on a character type
-         Demonstrates a multilevel character development
-         Ability to convey character nuances to other players
-         Acknowledges the virtual world
-         Plays character true to form, even in difficult situations
-           Plays character for the sake of the game rather than the sake of the character (ie, does not disregard roleplay for code in order to "win" just because he or she "can")
-         Player makes good use of emotes
-         Uses say emotes
-         Uses bio to detail character history and motivations
-         Uses think and feel to flesh out character
-         Adds 'flavor' to their character through accents, affectations etc
-           Shows understanding of the distinction between in-character actions and out-of-character motivations

Regarding locking threads: it's common practice to lock a thread, perform administrative actions (such as moderation/bans) and then unlock a thread, so that additional replies aren't added while in the process of moderating. It can muck up the works and make splitting threads or posts weird. As far as why we moderate, that is to enforce the GDB rules, not in the interest of wielding power over players but in maintaining a discussion forum for reasoned discussion by all.

Regarding contributions: We only really have a hard restriction on mastercrafts. I think players do a lot to step up otherwise. We have builders that are players, and are an immense help in facilitating the building side of staff plans. We have individual clan staff who follow player plots and do building as needed to support them.