Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Mordiggian]

I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

[Clearsighted]

Some people are going to be completely paranoid and feel persecuted no matter what you do.

I wish staff would spend less time trying to help those people unfuck themselves and spent more time animating. That's what people want, right? Animation and things in game and not therapy?

You know what makes someone feel paranoid? Getting a shitty account note that is either 1) Clearly and provably false, or 2) Extremely hostile, and being told you shouldn't have seen it.

You know an easy way to stop those kind of toxic, distrust-inducing events? Having a transparent account notes system that doesn't require so much editing and preparation for your consumption, that it's only requestable once every six months.

You'll forgive me, if by virtue of your past posting behavior, I assumed the 'paranoid' remark was aimed at me. Since it usually is with you, Skeelz.

I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

You say this as if no one like that has EVER staffed for Armageddon in the past, and all of the negativity comes from the playerbase, who are all completely unreasonable in being jaded. Armageddon staff basically have to choose between either more transparency and less opacity in their processes, or just continue the same 'circle the wagons' mentality that everyone is out to get them.

[Armaddict]

animating for/helping newbies

Just so you know...the thing that got me grabbed by this game was when some staffer decided to animate a bartender and chat with me, then vouch for me from a templar who was harassing me because the first thing I did when I entered the game was 'backstab slave' (I came from a hack and slash).

I promptly went to all my OOC contacts screaming 'EVEN THE BARTENDERS IN THIS GAME ARE PLAYED BY PEOPLE THIS IS AWESOME.'

So good on you.

[Armaddict]

And Clearsighted...I'd like to post my notes to you.  But they're pretty bad.  And they discuss it in the notes.  I've still never been turned down for a role, and they talk about that in them too.  It's...less restrictive than you think, I think.

Edited to add:  And while it can be irritating that things are placed there without context...at the same time, when they are not serving as much of a barrier when you are, earnestly, just trying to enjoy yourself in the game...it's not a 'meh' that is submissive or cowing to staff as some like to assert.  It's actually learning to not care because...no one really does, except some people who took it way too personally.  That's staff included.  I think it's a guideline, not something where they suddenly stiffen up when they see a bad note and go 'Ohhhhhh, THIS GUY IS A TWINK FUCK THIS GUY'.  I dunno.  I feel like you have to openly put yourself on the other side of the line from staff, a line that doesn't really have to exist, to start being regarded as 'I'm not sure I trust this guy.'

[Clearsighted]

And Clearsighted...I'd like to post my notes to you.  But they're pretty bad.  And they discuss it in the notes.  I've still never been turned down for a role, and they talk about that in them too.  It's...less restrictive than you think, I think.

I don't care about the content of the notes. If I fucked up, fine. Tell me. I'll try to not fuck up again.

What I care about is that often times account notes are incorrectly made. And they're just left there. They're left there even when the issue of their falseness is raised multiple times with corroborating evidence. I'm far from the only person that has received a negative note because a staffer only saw a fraction of the overall situation.

I am also against the fact that some account notes are edited out, so that players aren't allowed to read them.

That's it. Making the account note process more transparent would increase my trust in staff and decrease my suspicions. I think my past (and recent) experiences make that mindset quite reasonable. But apparently, I can go fuck myself as a paranoid freak out of touch with reality, twisting everything that staff says and seething with vitriol and hatred.

[Armaddict]

...I wasn't telling you to go fuck yourself.

I was trying to say I don't think it's as big a deal as I think it seems to a lot of people.  That's all.  Honestly, I've never tried to appeal to have notes removed, because...again, they weren't standing in the way of anything.  Sorry to try and reassure you.

[Mordiggian]

That's it. Making the account note process more transparent would increase my trust in staff and decrease my suspicions. I think my past (and recent) experiences make that mindset quite reasonable. But apparently, I can go fuck myself as a paranoid freak out of touch with reality, twisting everything that staff says and seething with vitriol and hatred.

That's not really what I said and I wasn't really referring to you but it is a good example of the attitude I'm talking about.

[Clearsighted]

...I wasn't telling you to go fuck yourself.

I was trying to say I don't think it's as big a deal as I think it seems to a lot of people.  That's all.  Honestly, I've never tried to appeal to have notes removed, because...again, they weren't standing in the way of anything.  Sorry to try and reassure you.

It was tongue in cheek, and not directed at you.

That's it. Making the account note process more transparent would increase my trust in staff and decrease my suspicions. I think my past (and recent) experiences make that mindset quite reasonable. But apparently, I can go fuck myself as a paranoid freak out of touch with reality, twisting everything that staff says and seething with vitriol and hatred.

That's not really what I said and I wasn't really referring to you but it is a good example of the attitude I'm talking about.

It is really what you said. And you were referring to me. But if you claim otherwise, then I'll just agree to pretend your posting right then (as you have in the past) was a coincidence.

[Eurynomos]

We don't really have time or the energy to hate anyone playing the game or pass on vitriol. We have disagreements sure, but we typically just pass it along to someone else if it's becoming an issue. It's a game where we pretend to be elves and chop mothafuckas up with bone swoodz. I think there was a different time in the game where Staff was a little bit less...Controlled, polite, tactful, etc. But we do try our best to be as positive as possible with people.

Account notes (when bad) need to be sent to a player, now. So there's no more shocking surprises when you ask for account notes. If there's discrepancies, let us know, and we will get in touch with the people who made the notes and remind them of this procedure.

We are also trying to figure out a good way of getting in touch when we make good notes too. There's some discussion about this Staffside, currently.

[Clearsighted]

We don't really have time or the energy to hate anyone playing the game or pass on vitriol. We have disagreements sure, but we typically just pass it along to someone else if it's becoming an issue. It's a game where we pretend to be elves and chop mothafuckas up with bone swoodz. I think there was a different time in the game where Staff was a little bit less...Controlled, polite, tactful, etc. But we do try our best to be as positive as possible with people.

There are some staff that are still around from that time when they were less 'controlled, polite and tactful', and they still behave the exact same way now as they did then, and which serves to reopen old wounds from time to time.

For what it's worth, the new staffers, and especially at the storyteller level, are a higher quality bunch. My personal opinion is that it's because most of them were players in that previous era, and having stuck with Armageddon this long, they're just naturally more sensitive to certain facets of the staff-player interplay.

But then, that's the nature of threads like these. Almost without exception, the staffers reading it and responding to it (or caring about what's being posted in there) are almost always the ones that it doesn't really apply to.

[nauta]

Account notes (when bad) need to be sent to a player, now. So there's no more shocking surprises when you ask for account notes. If there's discrepancies, let us know, and we will get in touch with the people who made the notes and remind them of this procedure.

Just as a point of clarification: I think seidhr has said a few times that whereas negative ACCOUNT notes do get automatically sent to the player, negative CHARACTER notes do not.  

It's not really a doomed or damned if you do, doomed or damned if you don't situation, it's just a kind of weird process thing: we can see them, but only after we request an account notes (which has a lag of up to six months and generates paperwork).  Wouldn't everyone prosper from having the character notes sent out when they get written?  I at least don't think staff would intentionally put down a dubious note, but granted the limitation in characters, and the distance that time brings, those notes are going to be awfully easy to misinterpret.

And this is really promising:

We are also trying to figure out a good way of getting in touch when we make good notes too. There's some discussion about this Staffside, currently.

[zanthalandreams]

I'm going to post this as a reminder.   This here is what folk have been breaking their silent exodus to answer.  The question is a good one.  Hell, I'd even say it is a brave one.  This isn't just a random place for folks to post about why they hate the game.  These are answers to a very specific question fielded by someone I get the impression folk have been waiting to ask just that sort of question.  

What does that player want?

And in answering it, folk are going to indicate a certain level of unhappiness about what they've slogged through.  This can be interpreted - and seems to be - as just complaining or whining or attacking.   At which point, most folk are going to read the replies.  Know that the status quo is being maintained, consider the original question likely to be rhetorical, and go back to not doing what they weren't doing before.  

Another way to look at it is as customer feedback.   Think that, you know, maybe I disagree with you. . or thank goodness that isn't the way things are now . . but here's how we are doing this better.  

But then I read a response like this:  

I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

And I think, well, if that's all they're hearing from this then it is a wasted effort.   I don't know Mordiggian, didn't even know M. was an Imm.   But when you post as an Imm you are, in ways, speaking for all staff.   While there's a Them perception, Them is all of Them.   Which, I guess, is another reason to be particular about which of your management staff you allow in front of the cameras in case they start saying things contrary to the message trying to be sent by the company.

There's a whole GDB devoted to the adoration of the way things are, have always been, or just giddy praises from the folk who aren't represented in the fading number of logins or the silent veteran walk-outs.  I know you guys disagree with a lot of what you'll read here because, well, none of it applies to you yet.  Keep posting, but don't be offended if you read something here that hasn't been your experience, wasn't your fault, or that you disagree with.   The thread isn't about listing all the great reasons we're currently retaining all of our veteran players and pulling back in folks who walked away.  


One last edit this morning before I head off to work:

When my wife is pissed at me, the worst thing I can do is try to minimize why she is angry.  Doesn't really matter, in the moment, if I believe she is being rational or if she has all the facts or if she's just holding on to something stupid I did back in 2004.  I have two options:  escalate or deescalate.   Now sometimes, it is a hill I need to die on.  If so, then I'm prepared to face the consequences of that decision.   If reconciliation is the goal, though, I try to remember that perception is reality and nobody will win if you start arguing about the accuracy of another's perception instead of how to change that perception so that everyone is seeing closer to the same thing.   

Okay, someone else can have the mic for a bit.

[Nergal]

We've been doing our best to turn things around for the players that have walked away unhappy, frustrated, or bored... but still have an eye on someday returning to the game, if only X or Y happened. But there also has to be a point where these players meet us halfway and understand that the past is in the past, and give the current team some benefit of the doubt. Things like old account notes don't matter to us. They were made by former staff members with different guidelines. As an extreme example, some older accounts have notes from the 90s and early 2000s about being banned for bad RP. We don't do that anymore - we reach out instead.

In more recent years we've established guidelines on how to treat players fairly. In more recent times there's been a greater consensus among staff on how to communicate with players, which is something that is still developing. But most importantly, we're working on developing the game at large, and I think players will be pleased at what comes in the coming months. The ideas featured in this thread and the closely-related skill thread generated a lot of discussion staff-side, and hopefully, a means to move forward.

[zanthalandreams]

I don't disagree with that at all.   This thread is a concrete example of that.   If you want to make another thread asking "What have we done that is making you decide to come back and play again?" then I bet you'll read those answers and feel a lot more warm and fuzzy after.  Hopefully I'm not the only one seeing the parallel here about not liking what you asked to read in the first place.

Here's a question - if they don't matter to the staff, and they've changed in recent years . . . but old negatives lingering like graffiti are being listed as one of the reasons for folk leaving, what could be done about that?   

[ibusoe]

I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

What I'm getting from you, is that you're really creative and really supportive and really sensitive.  Which isn't a bad way to be.

Not everyone can do customer service.  Not everyone who can do customer service can deal with every single customer.

Maybe, if you feel this way, then find the (minority?) of players you can work well with, and be there for those players?  It's a mistake to try to be everything to everyone.  Focus on what you can do well?

[Nergal]

I don't disagree with that at all.   This thread is a concrete example of that.   If you want to make another thread asking "What have we done that is making you decide to come back and play again?" then I bet you'll read those answers and feel a lot more warm and fuzzy after.  Hopefully I'm not the only one seeing the parallel here about not liking what you asked to read in the first place.

Here's a question - if they don't matter to the staff, and they've changed in recent years . . . but old negatives lingering like graffiti are being listed as one of the reasons for folk leaving, what could be done about that?   

To be honest I don't really know. There isn't a way to delete the graffiti that are bad account notes, as far as I can tell. Only "paint over" it by adding new notes. I can tell you that I will make it a point to add a new note whenever I see someone's old notes don't really apply to them anymore, to make this fact less implicit.

[Lizzie]

I don't disagree with that at all.   This thread is a concrete example of that.   If you want to make another thread asking "What have we done that is making you decide to come back and play again?" then I bet you'll read those answers and feel a lot more warm and fuzzy after.  Hopefully I'm not the only one seeing the parallel here about not liking what you asked to read in the first place.

Here's a question - if they don't matter to the staff, and they've changed in recent years . . . but old negatives lingering like graffiti are being listed as one of the reasons for folk leaving, what could be done about that?   

To be honest I don't really know. There isn't a way to delete the graffiti that are bad account notes, as far as I can tell. Only "paint over" it by adding new notes. I can tell you that I will make it a point to add a new note whenever I see someone's old notes don't really apply to them anymore, to make this fact less implicit.

I think this post right here addresses the "problem" of past account notes.

I think players think that when they receive edited notes, it's because the actual pfile was edited. It wasn't. Every single note that was appended to that file is still there. It's copied/pasted to another file and you get to see the edited version.

There exists no way to delete notes from the pfile itself, only from the copy.

So for those who are complaining about a note that was written in 2010 by a staffer who isn't on staff anymore, let it go, really. There's nothing anyone can do about it. The grafitti is up, it's there, and unless you want a full pfile wipe (which includes your current character, list of previous characters, the entire history of your account's existence in the game), it will remain an unimportant notch on your file that the current staff doesn't care about.

If it offends you, ask them to add ANOTHER note right under that note, reminding them to omit the comment the next time you ask for your account notes. It'll still be there, but you won't have to see it anymore.

[zanthalandreams]

let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.  

[Lizzie]

let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.  

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

[Qzzrbl]

let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.   

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

[Lizzie]

let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.   

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

Oh. I think that'd be great. But it doesn't address the concern that those notes still exist. The players who are having trouble with negative notes are saying they want the old ones expunged. It isn't possible without a pwipe.

[zanthalandreams]

I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

Yep.   I wouldn't like a pwipe for the same reasons, Liz.  The slope doesn't have to be that slippery.

[Qzzrbl]

let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.   

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

Oh. I think that'd be great. But it doesn't address the concern that those notes still exist. The players who are having trouble with negative notes are saying they want the old ones expunged. It isn't possible without a pwipe.

Out of sight, out of mind.

[Jave]

Wouldn't everyone prosper from having the character notes sent out when they get written?  I at least don't think staff would intentionally put down a dubious note, but granted the limitation in characters, and the distance that time brings, those notes are going to be awfully easy to misinterpret.

I have no idea if the coders would be able to do this or how much work would be involved, where it would fall in terms of priorities, etc but-

While we as staff would still need to be able to add notes players should not see such as:

Code Select Expand

i3: Pal'ing around with Dexter. Doesn't know he's secretly the infamous serial killer of Allanak.

Maybe some code could be devised so that we can toggle whether the note we're adding is secret or not, and if it's not it gets emailed to the player's account email automatically showing them what was added.

I'll bring it up on the staff boards for discussion.

[Kankfly]

Wouldn't everyone prosper from having the character notes sent out when they get written?  I at least don't think staff would intentionally put down a dubious note, but granted the limitation in characters, and the distance that time brings, those notes are going to be awfully easy to misinterpret.

I have no idea if the coders would be able to do this or how much work would be involved, where it would fall in terms of priorities, etc but-

While we as staff would still need to be able to add notes players should not see such as:

Code Select Expand

i3: Pal'ing around with Dexter. Doesn't know he's secretly the infamous serial killer of Allanak.

Maybe some code could be devised so that we can toggle whether the note we're adding is secret or not, and if it's not it gets emailed to the player's account email automatically showing them what was added.

I'll bring it up on the staff boards for discussion.

I'd like that actually. I like reading account notes because I like feedback, whether I'm doing something wrong or not, it's always better for me to know. If a note gets added to the account, I'd love to know it without using the account notes request.