Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Mordiggian]

If there's one thing I wish people would take away from a discussion on account notes, it's that sometimes people feel they're a bigger deal than they really are.

Notes (bad or good) or a lack of notes are not the end of the world. While I'm obviously a flawless paragon of virtue, capable of only good  , even staff members sometimes have negative notes on their mortal accounts.

[wizturbo]

Easy solution, let players leave staff account notes.  Bam.

Nothing could possibly go wrong.

No but really, it's like grades in high school and "your permanent record" nonsense growing up.  Never really makes a difference on what you can do, but everyone makes a big deal about it anyway.  I'm basing this off some epic players who've posted their bad notes over the years.

[Centurion]

I don't think any change is necessary apart from maybe being able to appeal a negative note decision, or at least have a chance for players to explain their side of the story? Maybe you can already do that? I've never worried about it. If staff find your reasoning legit, than a small note could be added straight after stating a simple, 'Player explained situation and staff approve', or something obviously better written than my example.

Otherwise, if you want to see your account notes you can, if you can't handle it, then don't look at them. It's pretty simple. I think there's a point where a line needs to be drawn when tiptoeing around people's feelings.

[Xalle]

That said, I think what players really crave and that generates karma reviews and account notes request is feedback.  A lot of the time, playing any RPI is like acting to an empty theatre.  You don't know if you're doing well, where you need to improve, or if something has completely jumped off the tracks.  So they request that feedback via the above, not knowing how else to gauge the producers' reaction to the role(s) they've played over the last six months.  Like an actor reading the stage notes on a performance, that feedback is usually terse, primarily because it's not meant to be the yardstick by which performance in a role is judged.  It's spur of the moment note taking.

I suggest if you want feedback on your PC then communicate with your (un)clan ST via report and just ask. Often the producers are asking storytellers and admin how the PC is doing when they need to give feedback anyway, as we're the ones most involved with or monitoring PCs. They don't just go off account notes.

[zanthalandreams]

"If you can't handle it, then don't look at them" is a nice sentiment, but misses the point.  I'm not picking up that anyone is sitting with their chin quivering because of mean nasty ugly words that really just don't mean all that much, really, and just don't matter in the big picture. . . or because they misconstrued what was genuinely meant to be constructive feedback.  

I think the disappointment and demotivating aspect of account notes is when you've played a character for, sheesh, years.  RL years.   In a game that supposedly rewards things like longevity and consistency and enriching the game world.   And you nailed it.  I mean, you know you done good.  Kudos have sifted through, you have imm replies to your reports that are encouraging and uplifiting.

But your account notes come in and it is a middle-school slam book entry.  And you're stuck with the realization that, whelp. . . that's their take-away.   Now you can spout T-shirt slogans at folk all day to just toughen up about this.  Another tactic would be to consider it as contributing to the hemorrhage.

"Hwat we've got here is. . . failure to communicate. . ."

(Edit - this is the last I'll say 'bout account notes here, because I think the thread took a derail and I liked how it was going before.  Having said that, if the topic is important enough to generate this much discussion by itself, it probably is a good indicator that it shouldn't be dismissed outright as not being a significant impact - whichever side of the issue you land.)

[nauta]

What is the role of account notes?

Here are two guesses I could come up with:

o A mechanism for staff to track players in order to better enforce the rules.  We now have the report tool.  A one-sentence aphorism, often negative or neutral, viewed from a limited perspective, having gone unchallenged, is probably not the most reliable guide to player behaviour.  If you see something (negative or positive) and you want to take the time to 'note' it, why not just open some communication in the report tool?

o A mechanism for players to receive 'feedback' from staff.  Here, I'm dubious that many people actually wants 'feedback' on their 'roleplay' from staff -- a lot of time people just say that because they want karma.  But even if people do want feedback, the better way to receive it is to ask your clan staff if there are things that you are doing right and things that you are doing wrong.  Notice: feedback isn't just the negatives or areas of improvement -- feedback also includes the positives.  Your clan staff, who is familiar or will familiarize themselves with you, can, as Xalle suggests, actually enter into a dialogue with you about your roleplay, and that strikes me as far better than the karma review process based on crumbs and done by someone who may have never even observed you.

My suggestion would be to just get rid of them -- they don't seem to execute the roles they were designed to execute very well (I could be wrong on the roles).

My alternative suggestion: change the policy so that players get e-mailed / a report is opened in the report tool when an account note gets added, positive or negative or neutral, IG or OOG.

[Riev]

To be a little more on track, I definitely think part of retaining people would be more things they can get involved in. Players have tried weekly card games, betting, coded and uncoded games, anything to keep people coming back but it always fizzles out. Whether the in game rewards aren't good, or people feel its a "waste" when they could be getting dem skillz, I can't say.

But if there were things happening slightly more often? Vennant throwing a yearly party at the Gaj, or a parade down Caravan road. Sometimes I think players get sick of each other and want to experience the world, which we can only do through staff.

[Case]

"If you can't handle it, then don't look at them" is a nice sentiment, but misses the point.  I'm not picking up that anyone is sitting with their chin quivering because of mean nasty ugly words that really just don't mean all that much, really, and just don't matter in the big picture. . . or because they misconstrued what was genuinely meant to be constructive feedback.  

I think the disappointment and demotivating aspect of account notes is when you've played a character for, sheesh, years.  RL years.   In a game that supposedly rewards things like longevity and consistency and enriching the game world.   And you nailed it.  I mean, you know you done good.  Kudos have sifted through, you have imm replies to your reports that are encouraging and uplifiting.

But your account notes come in and it is a middle-school slam book entry.  And you're stuck with the realization that, whelp. . . that's their take-away.   Now you can spout T-shirt slogans at folk all day to just toughen up about this.  Another tactic would be to consider it as contributing to the hemorrhage.

"Hwat we've got here is. . . failure to communicate. . ."

(Edit - this is the last I'll say 'bout account notes here, because I think the thread took a derail and I liked how it was going before.  Having said that, if the topic is important enough to generate this much discussion by itself, it probably is a good indicator that it shouldn't be dismissed outright as not being a significant impact - whichever side of the issue you land.)

If staff are communicating to you when they apply negative notes, wouldn't you know in advance? Not to mention that people appreciate different kinds of RP, and most people think they're good roleplayers or on point with a character when they're not necessarily. Why base your sole enjoyment in the game in what random staff think of you (or more correctly, what you think they think of you)?

[seidhr]

Some of you guys are really making a mountain out of a molehill about the account notes here.

I would also say that when notes do get added... they are in-general, positive more often than not.  Secondly would be purely neutral in tone, and finally negative in last place.

If you are the kind of player who enters a dark gortok den with no light, then cycles all your weapon types to train blindfighting and all your weapon skills as efficiently as possible, or you go up to a linkdead PC, throw knives at him from the adjacent room, go back into the room with the PC, pick up the knives again, and go back a room away to throw them at them again (and yes, these things really do happen!  and no, we don't encourage it!) then you'll probably get a pinfo about it.  If you do this a lot, your account might be full of notes like this - but it probably won't impact you a whole lot until you try to app for that mul.  

On the other hand, if you're playing a lovable oaf who just can't get anything right and really bring a scene to life, you might get a pinfo that is essentially a staff kudos for doing a great job.

If you're seeking to establish a new criminal element in Red Storm, you might get a pinfo saying as much.

These are all valid uses for account notes.  If you feel that one of your account notes is bogus or misguided, you can always send in a request and ask us to discuss it.  We might even change it if there was a misunderstanding.

If you don't want to engage the staff in communication, you are also free to do that.  I personally feel that's counterproductive, but it's up to you!

[nauta]

If you don't want to engage the staff in communication, you are also free to do that.  I personally feel that's counterproductive, but it's up to you!

I appreciate you stepping up and trying to clarify some things.  My contribution at least is in the interest of 'brainstorming'.  I haven't asked for an account notes since the new system that separated karma from account notes, but I do find some aspects of account notes discouraging, and one thing that might help retain players, new, middling, and old, is to avoid things that are discouraging.

I guess my worry was that players don't know the pinfo note is there, apparently because policy is to only alert the player if the pinfo note concerns something negative ooc-wise.  As far as I can tell (do correct me if I'm wrong) but the only way to know if there is an account note (positive, negative ic-wise, or neutral) is by asking for your account notes, which I think you are only allowed to do once every six months (again, I could be wrong).  In any case, a player won't be able to engage the staff in communication about the account note at the time because they don't know it's there!

To discover that staff thought you were doing something questionable (and no, we aren't talking about the examples you listed) without opening a line of communication about it is discouraging.  As well, you are missing a golden opportunity to do something encouraging: when you see someone do something neat, open that line of communication, send out that positive note to them.

[Riev]

If you are the kind of player who enters a dark gortok den with no light, then cycles all your weapon types to train blindfighting and all your weapon skills as efficiently as possible.

.......

[Dresan]

Seidhr. Much of what you said is common sense and something that unfortunately didn't need to be said in the first place. Most of us understand that, and thats why I'm sure that many of aren't too concerned about what the staff's feeling are on our time in the gortok cave, or what your thoughts are on us bashing that raptor, forgetting to wield our weapon for the hundred time. We are sure if there is a big enough problem we'd hear about it, but otherwise we are happy just playing for our enjoyment. In an ideal world, common sense would reign supreme, but unfortunately it doesn't always. This is one such occasion, where despite whatever you have to say, you will still have people quoting those remarks as the reason they are bitter staff or the game.

There is no right or wrong way to go about this, if staff decide to keep it, I'm sure they do it for good reason, or if they change it, its also for good reason. There are pros and cons with both solutions. However, no matter what you say it won't change the fact that some people will continue to  take those comments way too personally and continue hold grudges over them since we don't live in an ideal world where common sense reigns supreme.


Moving away from account notes, I really hope staff do take a look at the grind across the board. The amount of time we spend grinding our skills in this game could have been time better spent RPing or working on plots. The game needs more plots/storylines and a better newbie system but the grind to mediocrity is what drives me away from the game.

[seidhr]

If you get a negative ACCOUNT note, you will get an e-mail about it.  If you get a 'questionable' or even 'negative' note on a character, you won't get a note of it until you request your account notes, but it might be brought up if you ask for feedback during regular back and forth with staff via character reporting.  There's times when I've brought stuff up with people that's on their pinfo and I want more information on it or sought clarification and it ended up being totally fine.  Other times players have taken that critique and changed how they do things.

As Adhira mentioned earlier in the thread we're like... damned if we do, damned if we don't.  If we don't divulge the account notes (whose purpose is to be notes to ourselves) we're being secretive.  If we do divulge them we aren't being sensitive enough and whatever else.

Anyway I've got to run, gonna be late to the gym, whoops!

[Dresan]

You also have a staff only forum, don't you?   

[TheWanderer]

sometimes some of you people can be overly sensitive, and by that, I mean you're so overly sensitive that I feel like you're going to take an overly sensitive approach to me telling you that.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I've had the idea in mind for a long time which would essentially be a one-page long sheet including the most bare of basic info and the necessary ten or so commands.

I don't think we have one and if we do, its not immediately visible and glaring in red letters from the main page. The quickstart is something different to me, its how to create a character app mostly.

[Riev]

I've had the idea in mind for a long time which would essentially be a one-page long sheet including the most bare of basic info and the necessary ten or so commands.

I don't think we have one and if we do, its not immediately visible and glaring in red letters from the main page. The quickstart is something different to me, its how to create a character app mostly.

I think this could be good, as well as maybe re-writing the intro page (if it hasn't been done before) by adding it in. Maybe even just having a link to the Code Discussions thread about all the neat little things we can do with the code.

[Clearsighted]

What suggestions do you have for player retention?

1) Poor experiences interacting with staff is why most people I know have quit. If staff, or a specific staffer, comes off as repeatedly arbitrary, dismissive or abrasive...over time, that can wear down a person's desire to have anything to do with a game. This might happen even if most staffers are fine, or even pleasant.

Having some transparency in the staff complaint process might also help. Because it seems that the staff complaint request tool doesn't serve so much to enable conflict resolution, as to pinpoint potential troublemakers and treat them accordingly. No staff complaint request should ever be pre-emptively closed, without even an investigation, while belittling the player who made it, for example. Posts on the GDB shouldn't be deleted simply because a staffer finds them disagreeable. That only encourages people to go elsewhere to have an honest conversation. There's too much of a 'circle the wagons' mentality.

2) The whole staff-player divide is extremely opaque at the moment, and it does not feel like a collaboration at all. The game's grown too bureaucratic. Armageddon has gotten by as long as it has, owing to a mix of lack of competition and nostalgia. That can't go on forever (and it evidently, isn't going to). Maybe the best course at this point, would be just to release the codebase, and let others promulgate it, and do what they will with it, and see which incarnation/management philosophy proves the most attractive.

3) At some point, staff needs to learn that players are more important, than say NPCs, or their own preferred narrative of events. Plenty of people have gotten jaded and fed up with Armageddon, because they were bored of being treated like sex offenders that might molest some meticulous, pre-configured narrative regarding plot or NPCs. Staying vague here for obvious reasons, but when 9 out of 10 of every conflict resolution between NPCs and PCs, ends up being in the NPC/status quo favor, and left with annoyed, confused or upset players...Well. That's just poor STing.

You know, when I was a 12 year old dungeon master, and every time my friends tried to do something, I had some badass NPC appear to show them up, they eventually got tired of playing with me too. Fortunately, I learned that lesson at a young age.

[Clearsighted]

If you get a negative ACCOUNT note, you will get an e-mail about it.  If you get a 'questionable' or even 'negative' note on a character, you won't get a note of it until you request your account notes, but it might be brought up if you ask for feedback during regular back and forth with staff via character reporting.  There's times when I've brought stuff up with people that's on their pinfo and I want more information on it or sought clarification and it ended up being totally fine.  Other times players have taken that critique and changed how they do things.

As Adhira mentioned earlier in the thread we're like... damned if we do, damned if we don't.  If we don't divulge the account notes (whose purpose is to be notes to ourselves) we're being secretive.  If we do divulge them we aren't being sensitive enough and whatever else.

Anyway I've got to run, gonna be late to the gym, whoops!

For the record, this isn't true. I'm not calling you a liar, but you might be misinformed or viewing events through the rose-colored lenses of your own experiences. I've had horrific things written on my account notes (undeserved, IMO), but which I was given no clue about it, and not even a heads up, and only learned about when I got sent my unedited account notes by accident, once upon a time.

Also. Staff often set account notes without having the whole picture of events. Some 10 years ago, when I was RPing with X-D's fire mage, we had several scenes where my Bynner was in abject terror of him. Finally, after seeing him throw up a fire wall for the 20th time, I was less fazed about it. But that's the one encounter a staffer saw, and that's where I got my first bad account note. And I didn't even find out about it for years. I never got a helpful line dropped telling me to be more afraid of magic. Just a snarky one liner that sat there for years.

There are other examples, but I'm sticking to one a decade old.

[seidhr]

For the record, this isn't true. I'm not calling you a liar, but you might be misinformed or viewing events through the rose-colored lenses of your own experiences. I've had horrific things written on my account notes (undeserved, IMO), but which I was given no clue about it, and not even a heads up, and only learned about when I got sent my unedited account notes by accident, once upon a time.

Also. Staff often set account notes without having the whole picture of events. Some 10 years ago, when I was RPing with X-D's fire mage, we had several scenes where my Bynner was in abject terror of him. Finally, after seeing him throw up a fire wall for the 20th time, I was less fazed about it. But that's the one encounter a staffer saw, and that's where I got my first bad account note. And I didn't even find out about it for years. I never got a helpful line dropped telling me to be more afraid of magic. Just a snarky one liner that sat there for years.

There are other examples, but I'm sticking to one a decade old.

I'm not saying how things were ten years ago, as I wasn't on staff then.  I'm saying how they are now, and they are as I've described them.  I know this because I'm on staff.

I'm looking at your account notes right now, and there's nothing "horrific" in them whatsoever, so I'm not sure what you're talking about - I do see the one about the fire walls.  That was in 2008 and was written by one staffer who is long gone.

But those were the good old days, back when things were grand and the game was better and not ran by a bunch of sadomasochists - am I right?  Please.  Your facts are wrong and your logic is flawed.

[Alesan]

But those were the good old days, back when things were grand and the game was better and not ran by a bunch of sadomasochists - am I right?  Please.  Your facts are wrong and your logic is flawed.

Ouch. This is... really biting.

[Clearsighted]

For the record, this isn't true. I'm not calling you a liar, but you might be misinformed or viewing events through the rose-colored lenses of your own experiences. I've had horrific things written on my account notes (undeserved, IMO), but which I was given no clue about it, and not even a heads up, and only learned about when I got sent my unedited account notes by accident, once upon a time.

Also. Staff often set account notes without having the whole picture of events. Some 10 years ago, when I was RPing with X-D's fire mage, we had several scenes where my Bynner was in abject terror of him. Finally, after seeing him throw up a fire wall for the 20th time, I was less fazed about it. But that's the one encounter a staffer saw, and that's where I got my first bad account note. And I didn't even find out about it for years. I never got a helpful line dropped telling me to be more afraid of magic. Just a snarky one liner that sat there for years.

There are other examples, but I'm sticking to one a decade old.

I'm not saying how things were ten years ago, as I wasn't on staff then.  I'm saying how they are now, and they are as I've described them.  I know this because I'm on staff.

I'm looking at your account notes right now, and there's nothing "horrific" in them whatsoever, so I'm not sure what you're talking about - I do see the one about the fire walls.  That was in 2008 and was written by one staffer who is long gone.

But those were the good old days, back when things were grand and the game was better and not ran by a bunch of sadomasochists - am I right?  Please.  Your facts are wrong and your logic is flawed.

I was referring to the one set by Olgaris. If it's gone now, that's news to me, because I brought it up in the past and was basically just told 'Sorry, you shouldn't have seen that'. Hell, X-D backed me up on the fire mage thing, and that's still there, so I can only assume the Olgaris one is too. Or more likely, staff just didn't care enough to get it right to even make a query to X-D. It was easier for them to just leave it there as a black mark, rather than get it right.

Point being. Until people can check their account notes at will, and they don't need to be edited and made 'safe' to see, then that distrust or apprehension will linger. Nothing should be written about a player in their notes, that staff isn't comfortable with that player seeing. Because staff can get things wrong too, and it's quite possible to make someone feel blacklisted when they haven't deserved it. If everything is there for all to see, there is a much greater urgency for it to be accountable and 100% legit, and not just on a whim.

I haven't even requested to see my account notes in five+ years because the incident with Olgaris proved to me, that the things I should probably really worry about, would be concealed. Is that right or wrong? I don't know. But it allowed me to move forward.

Not everything can be handwaved as 'that was the bad old days'.

Well, in the bad old days, staff was rude to people, and mistreated them. And that happens these days too. So from what I've seen, although various staffers come and go, and some are nicer and more considerate than others, there are plenty of remnants from the past who seem to act the same as they always have. This isn't the place to raise up old and specific cases, but I've seen instances of abuse quite recently that could've happened in 2008 too. There were good staff back then, and there's good staff now. But it only takes one or two bad apples to turn someone off from logging in anymore.

[seidhr]

Hmm, no the thing about the krathi is from another staffer.  Olgaris is gone too, incidentally - since 2010.

If you'd like more specifics you can certainly send in a request about it.    You may not like the request system, but it's how we do business and the offer is there.

[Clearsighted]

Hmm, no the thing about the krathi is from another staffer.  Olgaris is gone too, incidentally - since 2010.

If you'd like more specifics you can certainly send in a request about it.    You may not like the request system, but it's how we do business and the offer is there.

I wasn't suggesting that Olgaris made the krathi note. He made another note about what he thought of my clan leadership. And I've brought that to Adhira's attention long ago (and was brushed off). I'm past it. I've also contacted staff several times over the years about the demonstrably false krathi note still being there, and if it's still there, after all this time...really, what is the point? It's why I don't request account notes anymore. I'm not alone in this mentality.

But this isn't about me. It's about my contention that the current account notes system makes relations between staff and players less transparent and less trusting than they could be. If people can check what's being written about them, then there will be an impetus to making sure what goes down there is directly relevant and truthful.

If you think relations are transparent and trusting enough as they stand, and that it's not causing anyone to stop playing, then obviously, you will disagree with me.

Armageddon is all about player accountability. But staff accountability is almost always behind an opaque veil of 'just trust us guys'. When you get burned enough times that stops being sufficient.

[BadSkeelz]

Some people are going to be completely paranoid and feel persecuted no matter what you do.

I wish staff would spend less time trying to help those people unfuck themselves and spent more time animating. That's what people want, right? Animation and things in game and not therapy?