Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Dresan]

Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

I can personally vouch that having to put 240 hours into a character's code-based levelling up before I reach a point where I can start playing as I want to IS a turn-off.

I've raised the idea of bumping up all starting levels in the past. In fact I wanted to move them all to a point where no one bothered to train them, putting (in my mind) the focus on RP, rather than coded advancement.  An informal query amongst players resulted in multiple people expressing a desire not to shift all skills to this kind of level. I believe the reasoning was that some felt it devalued their characters progression if others could just app in at 1 hour old and be at the level of more experienced characters.

I'd be happy to revisit the idea if thinking amongst the playerbase was different.

For the love of everything mercilful please raise the issue again.  

In the past people have been very against any sort of change, even the smallest suggestions of change met with so much resistance. However this game needs to change in order to keep up with the times. Today is my day off, and I'm still completely wrapped up with work. With iphones, tablets and skype we just don't have the time we used to, in general.  I love this game, there is alot of stuff I want to do, but sometimes all i have to look forward to is the grind, if I don't grind my character will won't be able to do anything but sit at a tavern. So do i go and play something like league of legends for 20/40 mins and have fun, or do I log in here and mindlessly train my character for the off chance that someday they can actually get to the point they can do something fun?

I still believe it should take some time for people to be fighting melikots, but lets face it, even back when defense was broken, the game didn't really suffer at all. At most the staff jsut ended up seeing people fighting gith on day one. I think a boost to all skills, allowing players to get into the game and just start RPing, start plotting, start trying things without having to train for 1-2 months before they can do things with a modest chance of success is not too much to ask in a game where even 100 day old characters can die instantly.


Woo, kinda gets me excited to think of the possibilities.

[wizturbo]

My advice on the skill gains discussion is make small changes and observe the results, rather than swing the pendulum too quickly one way or another.  Having everyone start with journeyman combat skills for instance may have a lot of unintended consequences.  Game systems are complicated ecosystems, after all.

Increasing skill up speed by some percentage amount is probably not a bad idea though.  I doubt anything terrible would happen if mundane combat skill gains came 50% faster.  But that's probably an over simplistic solution.

Also, keep in mind, that at the end of the day after combat skills are capped out, whose better than who comes down to stats.  Is it preferable for your relative combat ability to be determined by the dice rolls at chargen?  I personally don't think so.  Otherwise we're just going to see more and more suicides until you get those great rolls.

[Jihelu]

You just gotta order all minions guard me
Thats all you need.
You know how.

[Lizzie]

Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

I can personally vouch that having to put 240 hours into a character's code-based levelling up before I reach a point where I can start playing as I want to IS a turn-off.

I've raised the idea of bumping up all starting levels in the past. In fact I wanted to move them all to a point where no one bothered to train them, putting (in my mind) the focus on RP, rather than coded advancement.  An informal query amongst players resulted in multiple people expressing a desire not to shift all skills to this kind of level. I believe the reasoning was that some felt it devalued their characters progression if others could just app in at 1 hour old and be at the level of more experienced characters.

I'd be happy to revisit the idea if thinking amongst the playerbase was different.

I'm one of the people who enjoy the "accomplishment" side of the game. I like branching, because it means I've "done something cool" between then and now to make that branch happen. I would really really hate playing if I didn't have to do something to earn those accomplishments. I'm not even all that happy that the contact skill is now at master. I would've liked it better if novice was just a little more efficient than it used to be.

If skills had numeric values (I know they do but I don't know what the values are), I'd like to see somewhat of a curve, if there isn't one already. Here's my example (hypothetical, I'm not a numbers person):

"Master" max is 100, minimum 85
"Advance" 84 - 70
"Journeyman" 69 - 50
"Apprentice" 49 - 35
"Novice" 34 - 25

And if you don't have the skill on your list at all, you can still codedly attempt to do it, with a 5% catastrophic failure rate, an 85% non-catastrophic failure rate, and a 10% chance of success. Like - steal, hide, scan, sneak, backstab, sap - everyone should be capable of trying these things. Only people who have the actual skill on their skill list should have a reasonable chance of success, and "novice" should -be- an actual reasonable chance of success.

[Refugee]

I feel like my standard-issue (not even ext subguild!) PC has been part of some very earthmoving things, and has had a lot of influence in things that have happened.  I keep hearing the complaints about not being able to influence anything but I have to say, in my experience it's just not so.  I wonder what it is that people are talking about? 

Another suggestion that came to mind was that perhaps commoner PCs that reached the highest levels in Noble Houses, like Advisor, might be able to learn to read and write.  This is a position that takes many, many IG years to reach.  Then books and histories would be produced that would linger in the world after they were gone, with names and stories of PCs that nobility would never have reason to write down but that the Advisor would care about and note.  That would give a sort of permanence to players' efforts, since their stories would likely find themselves in the Advisor's journals and be read for generations.

[KankWhisperer]

I usually disagree with Staff but I can empathize with Staff on one thing. It is very difficult to please players of this game. You do your best but people are never usually satisfied with anyone's ideas but their own. People don't want to lead but they definitely know the leader is doing a bad job, and they could do it better. Alas, they don't have the <insert excuse> to do it. But you, terrible.

Part of the issue is that the lower on the rung you are the less you realize WTF is going on at times. So it can, in my experience, seem very arbitrary and confusing when someone/something in power turns on you. Maybe they did a lot of RP behind the scenes, but due to the strict IC information rules, it just kind of seems like you got screwed and no one is allowed to explain it. I really don't know how to resolve it btw. I'd like to not have to wait a whole year to post logs. 6 months? It's a game.

[Molten Heart]

A few ideas that might increase the playability for those with limited play time:

Have skills increase more quickly after being logged out for 15-20 hours a time. Combine this with a penalty that afterwards slows skill increases for the next several hours to compensate.Basically giving these players their skills up front so they can go to sleep at night and still keep up with players. Maybe only apply this to players in clans and only to the skills in their profession to account for learning their trade virtual.

Have skills increase more quickly when interacting with other characters more, like sparring together, etc. This would incentives players to interact more.

Often times people stay logged in hoping to catch another player online. Allow players to leave messages with an NPC or some other mechanism to allow them to communicate even though their playtimes don't overlap.

While the last one may be the most  may be the most unrealistic, maybe these ideas can be built upon or inspire something better.

[Rokal]

I feel like my standard-issue (not even ext subguild!) PC has been part of some very earthmoving things, and has had a lot of influence in things that have happened.  I keep hearing the complaints about not being able to influence anything but I have to say, in my experience it's just not so.  I wonder what it is that people are talking about? 

Another suggestion that came to mind was that perhaps commoner PCs that reached the highest levels in Noble Houses, like Advisor, might be able to learn to read and write.  This is a position that takes many, many IG years to reach.  Then books and histories would be produced that would linger in the world after they were gone, with names and stories of PCs that nobility would never have reason to write down but that the Advisor would care about and note.  That would give a sort of permanence to players' efforts, since their stories would likely find themselves in the Advisor's journals and be read for generations.

This is a really neat idea, I agreee with this fully.

Then again, I think litereacy should be a bit more free to learn then that, but i know the lack of literacy is part of the theme.

[lostinspace]

I'm one of the people who enjoy the "accomplishment" side of the game. I like branching, because it means I've "done something cool" between then and now to make that branch happen. I would really really hate playing if I didn't have to do something to earn those accomplishments. I'm not even all that happy that the contact skill is now at master. I would've liked it better if novice was just a little more efficient than it used to be.

I am very much with Lizzie on this. I've been playing text based games for I guess over 10 years now, and I live for the grind, the skill gains. And the thing is, once I know what I'm doing it becomes like a minigame for me to play when there's no one to RP with, or for some clans, a tool for when rping.

I have stored two characters in the  past, both of them were at points that I wouldn't be seeing any real skill gains for a long time if ever. One was in a relatively high position of authority and had a dozen or more other characters to play with. Without that grind on the side I just can't keep a real interest in Arm. For this reason the loss of sorcerer hit me the hardest, because from what I understand no other class had as many skills to learn and master.

[Kankfly]

I'm one of the people who enjoy the "accomplishment" side of the game. I like branching, because it means I've "done something cool" between then and now to make that branch happen. I would really really hate playing if I didn't have to do something to earn those accomplishments. I'm not even all that happy that the contact skill is now at master. I would've liked it better if novice was just a little more efficient than it used to be.

I am very much with Lizzie on this. I've been playing text based games for I guess over 10 years now, and I live for the grind, the skill gains. And the thing is, once I know what I'm doing it becomes like a minigame for me to play when there's no one to RP with, or for some clans, a tool for when rping.

I have stored two characters in the  past, both of them were at points that I wouldn't be seeing any real skill gains for a long time if ever. One was in a relatively high position of authority and had a dozen or more other characters to play with. Without that grind on the side I just can't keep a real interest in Arm. For this reason the loss of sorcerer hit me the hardest, because from what I understand no other class had as many skills to learn and master.

While I don't especially love the grind, I do love playing characters that suck at skills and then eventually become good at them. Having the char become good as soon as it goes ig kind of takes away the fun for me.

[Delusion]

The grind makes me not bother with any PC that needs to make extensive use of coded skills any more, bar merchants, which are easy. I'd be all for having PCs begin competent. There could be an option for people who enjoy skill-grinding and have all the time to sink into that to start with novice skills across the board, but I really hate it.

Regarding the black robe plot, I felt that only a small handful of PCs had any bearing on it, that information about it was too tightly controlled so that most people had no idea what was happening, and more significantly, it had no real repercussions for the majority of players to observe. The status quo was preserved, nothing much changed. Nobody cares about the Red Robe characters or Black Robes. They're much too high up to be relevant. Though on that note, since so many organisations and establishments in the game are basically indestructible - templarates, noble and merchant houses - without staff initiating a plot to destroy them, I'd happily see them all become completely unplayable, and have all PCs be big fish in a smaller pond instead.

[Inks]

I'd happily see them all become completely unplayable, and have all PCs be big fish in a smaller pond instead.

I'd happily see them all become completely unplayable, and have all PCs be big fish in a smaller pond instead.

I am partial to this idea, not the start skill increases though. I could go with a 50-75% Increase to mundane skillup speed, in a pinch. Not sure if this is a player retention thing or not.

But yeah. Feeling powerless and stagnant is the complaint I hear from a lot of players.

[Norcal]

Yup.  Not to bash the whole Black robe thing..it was well done.  However we need more plots which directly involve the majority of PCs, not a small minority of folks.

That was the good thing about having Tuluk open is that it at least created the -possibility- of battles and skirmishes, raids and counter raids, that the average PC could get involved in.

We need more of these opportunities. And it should be PvP, not P v NPC. It does not have to big mega scale either.

An example would be from a few years back when the Soh and Kurac were having a spat.  We killed some of them, they killed some of us, and it was  a lot of fun having that tension.  Such plots should be encouraged.  

More mayhem.

Let PK mean player kill and not Paper worK.

Make it FUN and they will come. And they will stay.

[BadSkeelz]

The Black Robe plot was 100000x better than any war plot in terms of Getting Involved AND Fun. PVP is fucking garbage and every incident of war-PVP was garbage. If the game world had more settlements that weren't defended by hundreds of (V)NPCs, maybe a war would work. But it doesn't, so there's nothing you can conceivably attack without weeks of planning and 4+ hours of playtime.

My only complaint about the Black Robe plot is that it ended. If I could login knowing I'd get to slaughter NPCs in the streets I'd be playing every day of the week.

[Norcal]

The Black Robe plot was 100000x better than any war plot in terms of Getting Involved AND Fun. PVP is fucking garbage and every incident of war-PVP was garbage. If the game world had more settlements that weren't defended by hundreds of (V)NPCs, maybe a war would work. But it doesn't, so there's nothing you can conceivably attack without weeks of planning and 4+ hours of playtime.

My only complaint about the Black Robe plot is that it ended. If I could login knowing I'd get to slaughter NPCs in the streets I'd be playing every day of the week.

Yes, attacking a settlement would be difficult.  It would need to be an unusual circumstance to allow it to happen with any chance of success. So just create the circumstance. It is a game..and things like that are possible.

Allanak is also defended by many VNPCs. In normal circumstances you would not be able to do what you did, and what you say you had fun doing. Yet to increase player fun, normalcy was put aside.

More of this please. You don't need to have pitched battles with armies. As I said, it does not have to be mega scale.

[Inks]

Massed pvp is awful.

Solo/ small scale PvP is exciting and never do I feel a rush in any game than when someone is trying to murder/murdering me/ getting murdered by me. It is seriously like the best coke rush for me in terms of time spent/ reward. Every part of that planning and murder is amazing, especially if delayed. Especially when it it's not certain which way it is going to go, one mistake can end it for a would-be murderer but...that rush either way.

It fucks me up. It is why some of my pcs are non-violent.

[Jave]

Massed pvp is awful.

Mass PVP is especially awful for leader PC's.

[Inks]

Massed pvp is awful.

Mass PVP is especially awful for leader PC's.

How fast can you type kill Templar?

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I usually disagree with Staff but I can empathize with Staff on one thing. It is very difficult to please players of this game. You do your best but people are never usually satisfied with anyone's ideas but their own. People don't want to lead but they definitely know the leader is doing a bad job, and they could do it better. Alas, they don't have the <insert excuse> to do it. But you, terrible.

Part of the issue is that the lower on the rung you are the less you realize WTF is going on at times. So it can, in my experience, seem very arbitrary and confusing when someone/something in power turns on you. Maybe they did a lot of RP behind the scenes, but due to the strict IC information rules, it just kind of seems like you got screwed and no one is allowed to explain it. I really don't know how to resolve it btw. I'd like to not have to wait a whole year to post logs. 6 months? It's a game.

This post would hold water if your estranged playerbase were complaining about IC things.  Most of the time (not always) players complaints with staff aren't related to anything going on IC but with disrespectful behavior during correspondence.  

Quantifying the amount of players who have left is staggering to me.  Never before have I seen two separate forums for a game and you have almost the same amount of players posting on either.  And this isn't seen as a problem?  Hmm. Hand waving won't make this one go away.

I think there comes a time for some Arm players, and this time will vary from person to person where you realize that you'd rather just be anonymous and play the game.  I know that I have taken solace in the fact that very few people know any of the characters I've played for years now.  Maybe it's the introvert in me but I think a lot of players get to this point with the game where just logging in to get in-character and have fun is all the matters. The roleplay is all that matters.  So where does the discontent come from if the IC gameworld is not the problem?  Of course it is the out-of-character correspondence itself.  I would never attempt to contact staff these days, I have no desire to even attempt any discourse.  That's a huge problem.  It would be like a player refusing to communicate with his DM.  Inconceivable.  I don't think that is sustainable and eventually these players walk off into the sunset with their heads down.  

[bracken]

The plot that half of me has enjoyed the most has bee the closing of Tuluk. (The other half of me sits quietly weeping in a corner) . It shook PCs lives upside down for real, (sorry honorable storees), and changed everything for some, and continues to provide plots. This isn't Atonement, is there other plots that could pick a large bunch of PCs up by the scruff of their necks and dropping them, without further destruction of our assets?
I'm aware that most posters including me don't know most of what's going on.

Skill progression- I have relatively few PCs and I'm happy to start as a useless bit and take what comes. There is a lot of you that aren't though, so I feel people like me may have to give up some more sacred cows to have this game hopping.

[KankWhisperer]

I usually disagree with Staff but I can empathize with Staff on one thing. It is very difficult to please players of this game. You do your best but people are never usually satisfied with anyone's ideas but their own. People don't want to lead but they definitely know the leader is doing a bad job, and they could do it better. Alas, they don't have the <insert excuse> to do it. But you, terrible.

Part of the issue is that the lower on the rung you are the less you realize WTF is going on at times. So it can, in my experience, seem very arbitrary and confusing when someone/something in power turns on you. Maybe they did a lot of RP behind the scenes, but due to the strict IC information rules, it just kind of seems like you got screwed and no one is allowed to explain it. I really don't know how to resolve it btw. I'd like to not have to wait a whole year to post logs. 6 months? It's a game.

This post would hold water if your estranged playerbase were complaining about IC things.  Most of the time (not always) players complaints with staff aren't related to anything going on IC but with disrespectful behavior during correspondence.  

Quantifying the amount of players who have left is staggering to me.  Never before have I seen two separate forums for a game and you have almost the same amount of players posting on either.  And this isn't seen as a problem?  Hmm. Hand waving won't make this one go away.

I think there comes a time for some Arm players, and this time will vary from person to person where you realize that you'd rather just be anonymous and play the game.  I know that I have taken solace in the fact that very few people know any of the characters I've played for years now.  Maybe it's the introvert in me but I think a lot of players get to this point with the game where just logging in to get in-character and have fun is all the matters. The roleplay is all that matters.  So where does the discontent come from if the IC gameworld is not the problem?  Of course it is the out-of-character correspondence itself.  I would never attempt to contact staff these days, I have no desire to even attempt any discourse.  That's a huge problem.  It would be like a player refusing to communicate with his DM.  Inconceivable.  I don't think that is sustainable and eventually these players walk off into the sunset with their heads down.  

What's your solution?

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

What's your solution?

I would say I have neither the time nor inclination to provide one. But this isn't true I could find the time to write out a long, profound and thought provoking post on the matter.  I dervise a fair bit of satisfaction in solving problems, as this happens to be what I do for a living.  Obviously this problem is subjective, there could be many solutions I just don't feel like any I provide would be considered objectively by the current administration.  Some posters here would also say there is no problem, evidenced by staff themselves saying so.  I'm just giving my two cents.

Far smarter people than myself post here and have already provided good solutions, Desertman being one of them. I'm too tired and cynical I guess.

[Lizzie]

I grow more and more disgusted and cynical about the playerbase, personally. I've seen better and better "behavior" from staff than ever, including Nyr (I'm not afraid to mention the elephant in the room). Nyr has been laying low on the GDB - why? Who knows. But that's what people claim to have wanted, and he's done that, and what happens? Everyone continues to bitch and moan and whine and gripe about how horrible Nyr is.

Not everyone "gets" Nyr. I know I don't. But that doesn't make him a bad staffer. People are parking complaints squarely on his shoulders, even though the decisions they're griping about weren't his. He was just the "mouthpiece" here to tell everyone about them. People are riled up about things that happened when he wasn't a Producer, and insisting that it's his fault, that he made those changes, he made those decisions, blah blah blah. In many of those cases, if players who whine would actually pay attention, those decisions would have been made by Adhira - or Nessalin - or, in a couple of those cases, were started by Sanvean and simply carried forward.

So everyone parks their troubles on Nyr's door and Nyr gets his hackles raised and claws out. If I learned everyone in the neighborhood was moving out because of something the Senior Housing director did in the projects behind my house, and was telling all the real estate agents to warn everyone else out because of ME...you betcha I'd have my claws out and hackles raised. And fuck all of you who have a problem with it.

You don't have to like Nyr in order to have fun in Arm. You don't even need for Nyr to like you. This isn't the 8th grade, and as we've seen in a recent poll thread, the average age of players here is in their 30's.

You want to know what's wrong with the game that players aren't coming and staying, and vets are leaving? It's you, players who actively, aggressively, and publically put the blame for everything wrong with your miserable lives on Nyr. Some of it might actually be his fault. But it's getting lost in the ridiculous hyperbole - and no one wants to play this game, knowing that they might be playing with one of you people who are here playing on proxy.

[Inks]

Coming from the person who used to agree with her own posts with an alt gdb account.

Honestly I have never had a problem with Nyr or any staff. But a substantial portion of the playerbase is clearly dissatisfied with something and they can speak. I don't think the drama is as much as is being made out but it obviously comes from somewhere and a raving response isolating dissatisfied players doesn't help.

Imms will lock the thread when it turns too crazy. I don't feel like the amount of these derail threads help the game, that being said. My last 3 years playing were better than my first 5, personally and in that respect I agree with you. I feel like the staff have been much better in public as well but just because I have very positive experiences doesn't mean others haven't had negative.

I would just combine this with the vis a vis old times thread myself. Anyway from my view I would say if staff keep up what they are doing and give players more chances to change the world we will be just fine.

[Nyr]

Never before have I seen two separate forums for a game and you have almost the same amount of players posting on either.

Probably more a sign of how easy it is to create a forum these days.  This certainly isn't the first time this or anything similar to it has happened; it's just way easier these days.  It's also way easier to find anything on the Internet than it was 10 years ago.

And this isn't seen as a problem?

Not really, at least, not it by itself.  Taylor Swift was only the most recent artist to capitalize on a phrase about players and haters.