Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Rokal]

Double how fast time passes. 16 years for 1 RL year.  Recruit years now 3 weeks instead of 6.

I'd rather see skills go up twice as fast than time speeding up, myself.

I'd agree with this as well. Sorry for double post!
modified to add:
Basically. I -understand- why it takes a while to improve someones skills in game. The thing is. It shouldnt feel like a second job to get anywhere on a character. Part of having fun on a game like this is the feeling your character is progressing.

now, that doesn't mean people should be twinking 24/7 and hoping to get INFINITE power. But I can really asure that if people can build up a character quicker that there would be less complaints about lame PC deaths, because all that hard work just went down the drain! most of the people who play armageddon are grown people with jobs and limited free time.  I feel that there would be a bigger focus on the Rp because people realize that gaining skills is more lenient. I don't think it needs to be like ..5x faster, or anything 2.5x at best - though, from what players i've seen speak of mages and THEIR ability to branch quickly. I don't think mages need to branch/gain new spells faster.

[Beethoven]

Just saw OK's idea about letting you recruit your friends. I don't think this is going to do anything to encourage the vets to come back, but it might help with newer players. For example, my boyfriend. He's logged in maybe three times ever, but I could probably get him to come back and stay if I wasn't afraid of interacting with him too much or being accused of favoritism. Let him roll up somebody that has an excuse to interact with my character. It doesn't mean I'll immediately drop all pretense of fair play and start giving him extra supercool favors and OOCly warning him about stuff he shouldn't know about. It just means he might enjoy getting to know the game a bit more if somebody OOCly familiar was at his side. Right now, even if he logged in and my PC did have a perfectly good reason to want to interact with him, I'd try to avoid it because I don't want either of us being accused of seeking each other out.

[Nyr]

I have no problem with discussing those things individually, one thing at a time.  Please post one specific concrete suggestion that we should do that we aren't already doing (or something we should stop doing that we currently do), and we can address those things one area at a time.  That way, we don't get bogged down!  

There's so many things that it almost feels odd to post a single one, because it'll be a brick in the wall. If I had to pick one concrete suggestion, it would be for you, personally, to acknowledge that there's a divide between staff and players which needs to be mended.

Sure, I'll give it a shot, but I do not think you are going to like the caveats added to the acknowledgment. 

There's a divide between some (definitely not all) players and staff (either individually or as a whole), which we can both try to mend. 

That means that players that feel there's a rift between them and staff need to want to mend that rift.  For our part as staff members, we can try to do that by talking to the ones that are willing to talk to us individually about these things; our door is always open.  We can try to reach out to more, but as strange as this may sound, we don't know everything and we may not actually know who is out there that feels there is this rift between them and their staff.  That's why we encourage players to start on their end to talk to us--it means that they, at the very least, want to address things, whatever the case may be.  If they don't want to and they feel like it should be our job to know they are discontented, what can we do?  We can try and reach out to them anyway if we know who they are; that's probably something that can be looked at for sure...but we'd have to know who they are in order to do that.  It's not insurmountable, but it is a challenge--we'd have to be pretty sure about the identity.

Next suggestion (or response to the above, if you prefer).

[Eurynomos]

Also:

There is no Player and Staff divide beyond the illusion of one, fabricated by the history of our experiences together. We are on the Player's side, because we are also Players. We are on the Staff's side, because we are also Staff. We dance the line between both worlds, because we choose to make the game a better place to play in, and a better place to Staff over. We actively encourage each other not to dwell on GDB drama. We pick up the slack when other Staffers have duties that call to them IRL -- Family, friends, merry-making, kids, wives, husbands, and other hobbies. We achieve great goals that we set for ourselves -- And we admit when we make mistakes. After all, we're only human.

Humans love continuity. We desire to see a connection between the past, the present, and the future. We like to remember how things were, because it gives us context for who we are. I say this, because when you look at the continuity of ArmageddonMUD, you can't be anything but incredibly impressed at how far we have come. And it's easy to forget how far we have come, because we take it for granted. Just like when you are sick, all you can think about is how sick you are, how horrible you feel, how 'normal' feels like a quality you never even had...And when you get better, you can't even remember what sick felt like.

Every year that ArmageddonMUD still exists is a year it has bettered itself -- The continuity between the past and the present shows a rich tapestry of change. Perceived mistakes are addressed, sometimes poorly, and then adjusted again, and again. Documentation for clans that didn't exist is written and implemented, and then re-written when errors or inconsistencies are noticed. Code is revamped, changed, and revamped again, constantly improving on the old, and creating where there was lack.

Communication between Staff and Players has never, in the existence of the game, been as good as it is now. Checks and balances are in place to leave a paper trail of communication between Staff, and Players. Protocol has been created, and is followed, to remain as professional as possible on a free to play RPI. Gone are the days of emails to the MUD account with possibly no response, or a response months later. Context is provided through this paper trail, so that future generations of Staff can read back and through old logs, PC relationships and histories, and so forth.

I think communication is key to any successful relationship. And our communication has never been better than it is now. Following the continuity bit, we can only aspire to achieve greater goals, to engage the player base, to make a fun game that people want to play, and to provide an experience that is unlike any other experience on the Net.

Speaking as a Storyteller, I can only say that my goal is to provide intelligent suggestions to the rest of Staff on how to make the game better, and offer my opinions on their own ideas and concepts, while attempting to weave entertaining stories for the players of ArmageddonMUD, and finishing with the icing of enhancing your own trials and tribulations. I'll reiterate that there is no Player or Staff Divide beyond what illusion of one is perceived by certain Players who feel, in their tale of continuity, that they were dealt a bad hand.

I also had 'bad account notes' with Staff in my dealings with them. I had chips on my shoulder about Nessalin being a douche to me in how we interacted with one another. I felt Staff was, at one point, out to get me. I refused to speak with Nyr at one point, due to a back and forth on a few requests I had open, and then re-opened to continue arguing, and then opened again to keep re-arguing. I asked Staff to not make notes on my account that were 'feedback' oriented unless I asked for it. Despite being a prima donna and basically being a little shit, I joined Staff, and here I am today. So I suppose I am saying, even the misfits and highly opinionated can and will be on Staff. People with opinions and passion tend to care about the game they pour their time into.

We are all on the same side of the fence, and there is no Iron Curtain. Believing there are two sides of the fence, or there is an Iron Curtain, is entirely up to you.

[Narf]

My main suggestion is get rid of the 'too big to challenge', 'monopoly' and 'culture of no' thing we have going on in the game. I think everyone would acknowledge you can't readily challenge the GMHs, city states, the Sand Lord, Sun Runners, etc. So I would suggest taking out nearly every clan that is too big to fail with perhaps the Arm of the Dragon remaining as 'the law'. 'Byn would remain.

Kadius, Kurac, Salarr, Noble Houses, Sun Runners, and Akei should all be closed. They're all too big to fail background NPC/VNPCs.

What would I replace them with? I would replace them all with player run clans. These clans would mostly have to pay a tithe to whoever they were a subset of. Sell Armor, then Salarr gets 25% for doing nothing. Salarr is too big to fail, your clan can be squashed however.

Allanak proper would have one or two warehouses available for player run clans. The 'rinth would have one. Red Storm would have one. Luir's would have one. Morin's would have one. I would also add a coded 'raider camp' that moves between various locations every week or so that players can have a semi-secure setup in.

Why? I think that if players were all competing for these minor merchant house positions, they would feel that what they did mattered. You -don't- matter to the closed organizations but to these upstart organizations, you are important. What the players do would now matter. The staff wouldn't have to say no as much because now you are just picking fights with people of generally the same social level as you. If your organization wins then after a couple RL years you get coded into the game as NPCs and begin the game of warehouses again. Personally I really think this would be a lot more fun and engaging for the playerbase.

This would ultimately be my dream for Arm. Having players directly participate in things that are just too big for them to effect significantly is a recipe for frustration. That said, these elements of oppression add tremendously to the atmosphere of the game. Making them NPCs and giving players little ponds to be the big fish in would be my ideal solution.

However like Desertman said, I don't really see a path to get to this point.

[wizturbo]

Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to sway the course of events.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast your ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun, and didn't feel railroaded.

[Dresan]

Combat is fine but other skills could be adjusted a bit.

Its not only that most skills should train faster, but I also feel like some skills should start a little higher. Either at apprentice or journeyman depending on the guild of the character, so that they are able to a bit more do more from chargen. However I agree the amount of time it takes for any character to become decent is way too long, resulting in people not wanting to  risking the lives of their characters and contributing to lack of plots from the player side.

[Inks]

Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

That being said; opening extended subguilds to karma system is a superb idea.

[Beethoven]

Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to get involved.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast you ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun.

It sure as Drov was. wizturbo is right. What I liked about that plot is that even though it was something going on in the highest echelons of society, it trickled down to affect the general populace, with the rioting and violence going on. I wasn't a big fan of the big DBZ battle but all the intrigue and ultraviolence that followed was awesome. And it didn't feel railroaded--it felt totally organic, and the NPCs involved felt very real. If I didn't send a kudos about that entire arc, I should have and will send a belated one soon.

And I agree, skills should start higher AND train faster. The slow grind of mundanes doesn't really facilitate much RP in my opinion.[/list]

[BadSkeelz]

Skill bumps might shave a few hours off of the grind, but unless you're playing 40 hours a week and using a skill timer it's difficult to  get to a point where you feel your character is competent in a "reasonable" time frame. At least where combat is concerned.

I'd like to see Armageddon be more of a game and less of a part/full-time job.

[KankWhisperer]

Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to get involved.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast you ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun.

It sure as Drov was. wizturbo is right. What I liked about that plot is that even though it was something going on in the highest echelons of society, it trickled down to affect the general populace, with the rioting and violence going on. I wasn't a big fan of the big DBZ battle but all the intrigue and ultraviolence that followed was awesome. And it didn't feel railroaded--it felt totally organic, and the NPCs involved felt very real. If I didn't send a kudos about that entire arc, I should have and will send a belated one soon.

And I agree, skills should start higher AND train faster. The slow grind of mundanes doesn't really facilitate much RP in my opinion.[/list]

I felt the plot was very railroaded and was only a game for those already in power. Sure players got to see cool shit but in the end just some NPC shuffling and no significant changes that matter to Joe shmoe.

[Fergie]

That's why we encourage players to start on their end to talk to us

There is no Player and Staff divide beyond the illusion of one

Then I have no faith in your intentions. You have this way of always blaming the players, making everything the player's responsibility, and generally absolving yourselves of all wrongs. Players aren't going to individually contact you because every time they do, they're subjected to your manipulative and underhanded manner of private communication, where you can use your authority to invariably railroad the subject into "you're wrong" territory no matter how much or little that's the case. If you still can't see that the problem is a systematic abuse of power, mismanagement of the game and mistreatment of players over the course of years, not on an individual basis, then there's no point in trying to reconcile with the many players who have quit the game because of you. Best of luck. The community of people who quit Armageddon because of you grows by the month. You'll continue to hemorrhage players until you can admit that much if it is your fault and the change has to come from you, or the game dies, whichever comes first.

Adios.

[Beethoven]

I like the sense of accomplishment too, but I kind of wish they'd start a leetle higher. But I'd probably be assuaged if skill bumps were karma-based instead of requiring a special app. If they only change extended subguilds, though, I'll be happy.

(I'd like to add it's mostly combat that I'm talking about. I hate playing combat characters and whenever I try, I'm reminded of why. If the grind was eased up a bit, even if it's still extremely tough to live to become a legendary warrior, I'd be pleased as Punch.)

[Nyr]

That's why we encourage players to start on their end to talk to us

There is no Player and Staff divide beyond the illusion of one

Then I have no faith in your intentions. You have this way of always blaming the players, making it the player's responsibility, and generally absolving yourself of all wrongs. Players aren't going to individually contact you because every time they do, they're subjected to your manipulative and underhanded manner of private communication, where you can use your authority to ultimately railroad the subject into "you're wrong" territory no matter how much or little that's the case. If you still can't see that the problem is a systematic abuse of power, mismanagement of the game and mistreatment of players over the course of years, not on an individual basis, then there's no point in trying to reconcile with the many players who have quit the game because of you. Best of luck. The community of people who quit Armageddon because of you grows by the month. You'll continue to hemorrhage players until you can admit that much if it is your fault and the change has to come from you, or the game dies, whichever comes first.

Adios.

Adios.  If you feel like talking to us rather than at us/about us to the GDB, our door's always open.  And just to emphasize the thing I said earlier that wasn't cherry-picked/quoted, I'm sending you an e-mail as well, as I'm at least somewhat confident on the identity front in this case.  (I'm not sure what your specific issue is--I get that your general issues are that I'm terrible and drive away tons of players, but you specifically seem to be driven away, so I'll shoot it out there to you.  I suppose we'll have to find out there and try and move past it?)

[Adhira]

Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

I can personally vouch that having to put 240 hours into a character's code-based levelling up before I reach a point where I can start playing as I want to IS a turn-off.

I've raised the idea of bumping up all starting levels in the past. In fact I wanted to move them all to a point where no one bothered to train them, putting (in my mind) the focus on RP, rather than coded advancement.  An informal query amongst players resulted in multiple people expressing a desire not to shift all skills to this kind of level. I believe the reasoning was that some felt it devalued their characters progression if others could just app in at 1 hour old and be at the level of more experienced characters.

I'd be happy to revisit the idea if thinking amongst the playerbase was different.

[wizturbo]

I felt the plot was very railroaded and was only a game for those already in power. Sure players got to see cool shit but in the end just some NPC shuffling and no significant changes that matter to Joe shmoe.

That's because many of the PC choices were 'status quo' choices.

I don't want to get into too many details, as these are still relatively fresh IC events...  Okay, I do want to get into details, but I won't because staff might hit me in the face...so I'll walk on (hopefully) the edge of the line on what I can say.  

Here's one example of how major significant changes were in the hands of players, so you don't think I'm just hand waving here:

There was a candidate for Black Robe of City that was very Oash in their way of thinking.  Pro magick.  If that person won, it was safe to say the city would see a rise in the use of magick.  They didn't win, and I have good reason to believe they didn't win because of player actions.  In this particular case, I saw involvement from literally every echelon of Allanaki society.  Gemmed, Independent Merchants, GMH, Nobles and Templars all got involved in some way or another.  I've no idea if they realized they were able to sway events or not, it probably felt way over their head...but they could have.  I know, because I saw people sway them.  

[Nergal]

I think, regardless of opinion, people who argue about what the game's direction should be and how the game can be improved are passionate and well-intentioned. At the same time, there is a need for accuracy and civility. We can't improve the game if all we have are accusations and one-sided stories. However, there are some good ideas in this thread that have been presented clearly, and I think they will be useful to staff and future plans. I know that personally, I have been inspired by one particular idea in this thread and started to draft a couple of plans related to it. Some of the ideas here are interesting and worthy of further discussion. One very interesting idea is the idea of "plot seasons" and arranging a cohesive storyline long-term.

I think the level of bureaucracy that players or storytellers have to deal with is highly overestimated. The producers are on-hand to maintain the consistent atmosphere of the game as well as an overall direction of how the came can be improved through code or policy. Admins and Storytellers are in charge of running plots of their own and supporting players with plots or building.

I can say for a fact that staff value player input whether we agree or not, and welcome continued discussion.

[Narf]

I like the sense of accomplishment too, but I kind of wish they'd start a leetle higher. But I'd probably be assuaged if skill bumps were karma-based instead of requiring a special app. If they only change extended subguilds, though, I'll be happy.

(I'd like to add it's mostly combat that I'm talking about. I hate playing combat characters and whenever I try, I'm reminded of why. If the grind was eased up a bit, even if it's still extremely tough to live to become a legendary warrior, I'd be pleased as Punch.)

Extended subguilds really should not be tied to karma. It doesn't require additional staff trust and player responsibility to play a pickpocket that's really good at pottery or whatever. Karma is meant to be a requirement for roles that have additional roleplaying requirements above and beyond the minimum in the game, and extended subguilds just don't fit the bill for this at all.

Right now they're a little boost available to all players at an equal level. Honestly, we need more of these not fewer.

[Adhira]

I felt the plot was very railroaded and was only a game for those already in power. Sure players got to see cool shit but in the end just some NPC shuffling and no significant changes that matter to Joe shmoe.

That's because many of the PC choices were 'status quo' choices.

 I've no idea if they realized they were able to sway events or not, it probably felt way over their head...but they could have.  I know, because I saw people sway them.  

Some thoughts from staff on this plot - there was some idea from staff what the end result would be: that we would have 2 new black robes. The other parts of the plot that were predetermined were the NPCs that were competing for the job, their personalities, and their personal goals.  Everything else was open and dependent on where players took it.  

We threw out multiple plot hooks, introductions and avenues for PCs to have some say/effect.  A large majority of PCs seemed to think that this was indeed a 'railroad plot' that was over their PCs head and there was nothing they could do to effect it. So they did nothing or not much at all and that meant they had no effect on the outcome. Some PCs went all in and tried some things that would/could have had a drastic effect.  I will say that there was one moment where a PC initiative was underway that we determined meant X outcome.  As the scene played out something totally unexpected happened, via intervention of another PC. It entirely changed what we had planned/thought and we had to go with things on the fly.  End result - we didn't know who was going to move to a certain position until the very final moment.  The key PC players in making that happen were a magicker, a half-elf, a commoner merchant, a servant and a couple of nobles, so not just 'one strata' of the game.

[Alesan]

Extended subguilds really should not be tied to karma. It doesn't require additional staff trust and player responsibility to play a pickpocket that's really good at pottery or whatever. Karma is meant to be a requirement for roles that have additional roleplaying requirements above and beyond the minimum in the game, and extended subguilds just don't fit the bill for this at all.

Right now they're a little boost available to all players at an equal level. Honestly, we need more of these not fewer.

I've never really understood why there's this upper tier of mundane subguilds that don't really require any more RP talent than basic subguilds. Magickal subguilds, sure. But I think there could be a bigger choice of subguilds available to all players and not just those who have done Amazing Things(tm) to gain staff attention (not to be confused with favoritism please, not what I'm saying).

There are plenty of things that require karma, rightfully, in order to play. I think we could do with more options available to all players, not just a select few.

[Eyeball]

Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to sway the course of events.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast your ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun, and didn't feel railroaded.

Did those players understand the potential effects of their choices, or was it really difficult to perceive the connections between actions and outcomes much less predict them beforehand?

[Beethoven]

I want to say, I only want ext. subguilds tied to karma because I don't want to spend special apps on them, and it doesn't look like the CGP thing is getting automated anytime soon. If they made extended subguilds 0 karma I'd also be happy, but then they would just make the old subguilds obsolete, which I didn't think was the intention of extended subguilds at all. I probably wouldn't mind if more people were more talented at more things, but if extended subguilds are supposed to be rarer than ordinary subguilds, there has to be some sort of deterrent.

I just don't want to spend a spec app slot that I could be spending on that sorc/whatever I've always wanted to play on a guy that's better at cooking than the average warrior. I will if it fits a concept I want to play, but it doesn't feel right for those two things to be bought for the same exact price, if you know what I mean.

[LauraMars]

I know that personally, I have been inspired by one particular idea in this thread and started to draft a couple of plans related to it.

so curious

[wizturbo]

Did those players understand the potential effects of their choices, or was it really difficult to perceive the connections between actions and outcomes much less predict them beforehand?

In my personal experiences I understood that my character's actions were going to have an affect on the outcome.  They didn't always have the outcome I predicted they would, but that was realistic.  And in some cases, small choices my character made had a larger impact than I would've thought.  

In the example that Adhira mentioned a few posts before this one however (if it's the event I think it is), I'm pretty sure the PCs knew exactly what the immediate effect their invention would have on the situation.   But I'm guessing they had no clue what the long term effect would be...i.e.. that they were essentially making a choice that would effect who would be the next Black Robe.

[BadSkeelz]

I look forward to seeing those logs.

I think it's pretty natural for most players to assume that, when events like Black Robe selections are happening, the plot is out of their hands. Most of our PCs aren't moving in that sphere and neither are our NPC bosses. It's good to remember and be reminded that sometimes we can have such an impact on the game world.

Personally I like to think that me emote-hitting a 10-year-old in the face with an axe had a definite impact on the Black Robe selection.