Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Desertman]

I recall a plot where the T'zai Byn went out to shitstomp some raiders in the salt flats. That was a really awesome plot. It didn't affect the entire world. It involved around 20 players and there was a definitive start and endpoint.

In the end I think the players didn't really affect the outcome very much. The sad truth is they lost the fight but the raiders still got destroyed due to staff intervention.

Either way, it was a very fun event in my opinion and a solid example of a "small time" plot that included a lot of people but didn't need to include the world or even have any real lasting effects.

[wizturbo]

More staff driven plots.

1)  Player driven plots require a lot more coordination and raw effort to get off the ground than staff plots.  

My post on this thread goes into detail on why this is ((http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg909381.html#msg909381))

2)  Staff plots are able to reach higher than player plots in most cases (Red Robes, mythical creatures, etc...players can only react to that stuff, they can't directly stir it up).  

3)  Staff plots are able to reach lower than player plots.  Lower in the sense that they could just be events that Zalanthas would experience from time to time, without any particular social motivations that the players see.  For instance, if staff loaded up a random group of gith raiders to terrorize the southlands for a day, only to be killed off or retreat the same day.  Something like that would add a ton of flavor and excitement to the world that doesn't necessarily require a lot of build up or aftermath work.  Desertman's example above is exactly what I mean.

[Erythil]

What do you mean new major characters?

I see a lot of you want to see plot.  Now when you guys talk these large plots, are we talking plots that you guys see, but are unable to interact with, but may affect the game world you play in?  Say for example, a battle between Red Storm and Some Raiders where fights will be heard about on the rumor boards, or through animations, but you really have no capacity to change the outcome.  You may see a few raiders outside Red Storm, you can kill them, but this doesn't mean you beat them back.

Or are you guys looking for more interactive large plots?  Something where player action does make a difference.  Say for example the raider leader is camped somewhere and if the players kill him, Red Storm may owe a debt to the players.

The big difference here is how much time is invested.  Big plots that include major player interaction require a lot of work, planned RPTs, planning, etc.  That which doesn't require much interaction and really only affects the game world and the players are the viewers and somewhat affected, these are more easy to manage on a staff level.

These are just some talking points, so I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say.

I think both are good.  The game world is supposed to be huge, and just hearing about things going on makes it feel more alive, and having an admin's word of god behind 'this happened the other day' makes it more legit than people just making up potential things.  You can drop rumors about current events and use people's interest levels in different rumors to gauge which ones you turn into more player-interactive storylines.

The kind of objective you described with the raider leader doesn't necessarily require a big admin RPT.  You could just drop a fortified 3-room encampment in the game, and have a trophy item on the leader that can be acquired for turn-in.  I know it might seem a little more like an MMO's 'quests,' but it's also something I'd like to see more of in the world -- more tools for us to go out and make our own fun.  Military clans in particular often stagnate because there's not really a lot of opportunities for them to actually go out and do military operations.  The warcraft/fort system that SoI has is probably too complex for Arm's engine as it stands, but I'd love to see neutral villages and forts that have to be captured or guarded every so often.


Unrelated:  I think one of the biggest barriers to entry is for a new player are as follows:
1.  What am I supposed to 'do?'
2.  What is the difference between PCs and NPCs?  How can I tell which is which?
3.  Where the hell are all the PCs, anyway?  (the way change helped with this, but players can't Way PCs until they've met them)


On another game we handled the second point by making NPCs a different 'color' than PCs, but that's not an option on Arm, it seems.
As for the third point, every other RP mud has some variation on an RP hotspot or notification system to make it easier to find RP, especially during off-peak hours.

[Desertman]

+1 for small time random and generally pointless happenings.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason for six gith in a "raiding party" to show up and start camping the Salt Road other than "This gith has decided he wants to do this.", that is where the story can end and it will still give people something to do.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason that a "flock" of eight silt-fliers has been reported to be swooping down in a group and terrorizing the mining fields west of Allanak. They just roamed up and there they are to get destroyed or do some destroying of their own...and the story ends there.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason "Gulgak the rinth dwarf was just spotted killing someone in the street and now he's on the loose for the AOD to chase down.". He may even intentionally put himself in harms way (staff decision, obviously Gulgak wouldn't know he was doing it, he would think he was being cunning or whatever) so the AOD can get their hands on him....and the storyline ends there.

Things like that. I don't see why we need a lot of staff involvement and writing plotlines and getting them approved to throw out one of these sorts of things a week where the whole city can hear about it and those who are in a position can do something about it, or ignore it if they choose.

If they do happen to organically create interest in an off-shoot plotline and the avenue is there then staff can write a deeper story and get it approved and pursue it.

When I DM some of the most interesting things my players get into are stories I have written up based entirely on the random things they decided to do during encounters that I fully intended to never have a storyline.

[Erythil]

Yeah, I think that the game could benefit from more low-rent 'random encounters' that don't have a huge depth of characterization, but allow staff to do some quick in-and-out storytelling, tabletop gaming style.

[Lizzie]

Here's an example, stolen from something I did as a head builder/storyteller in another game, long ago.

Our admin wanted to create a new hunting area (it was an RP-enforced hack-n-slash, where the #1 way to level up was to hunt but not the only way).

I came up with the idea of a haunted house and yard near the outskirts of town. I explained the concept, the types of "mobs" we'd have, and he had the coder build the mobs themselves with whatever stats and gen rates and whatever else (I left mob-building to the admin/coder people).

I then created the avatar I'd play for the grand opening, along with another builder who often worked with me on projects. My avatar was a little girl, an orphan who had been raised by the "middle" lands (there was dark, neutral, light). I had her show up spontaneously for no particular reason, just as a way of getting people used to seeing her around. She'd sit on a half-giant's lap and demand story-time, and the half-giant would send his message to the game-world (we had a public psi channel) that he was gonna have story time so everyone gather round. So that HG, played by just a player, would create that little impromptu RPT. Then another time I'd have my little girl show up in another section, maybe walk into one of the workshops where a tailor PC was working, dragging along a raggedy doll with a torn dress. She'd walk in crying because her dolly's dress was ripped, and he help? And we'd have a little RP time with him emoting out fixing the dress - and I'd change the description of the doll to reflect the recent repair. I'd do a bunch of these for around two weeks.

Then one day she showed up in another part of the game world, maybe at the bar in the other town, with her newly fixed dolly, and asked if anyone had seen her best pal. So they'd all go on a hunt for her best pal. My co-staffer, who was playing the best pal, would be wizinvis near the new hunting area, and my avatar would run home to her auntie in case her pal showed up. And then I'd switch out to play the crazy old fortuneteller lady who suffered from narcolepsy. I'd have her just a few rooms away from where people were looking, and as soon as they came her way I'd have a little something to say about portents of doom and something spooky, and maybe include a hint of what the best pal looked like in a "vision." She'd tell the legend of the old hermit, complete with a description of the shack and the basement. And then of course my chick fell asleep standing up, came to, and demanded to know who stole the glasses that were on top of her head.

Finally one of the players would get the hint and start looking on the outskirts of the lightlands - and my co-worker would start doing the "kid is yelling and screaming for help" bit, and I'd add some spooky effects with game-wide emotes and region-wide emotes.

My friend was already "in" her avatar (this was a MOO, you could just "become" any avatar you had authority to use, and could make your own any time), invis and ready to come out when the time was right.

They finally found the little boy, battered and bruised, but not til after they had hunted through the haunted house and discovered the ghosts and ghouls of dead children in the basement, where the boy was hiding inside a big dresser drawer.

They defeated the ghost of the hermit and recovered his axe, and the hunting area was made available, as an undead hunting area with modest treasures.

The entire process took around a month from start to finish, but the actual coded part of the mobs took I think a day - and the avatar creation took me and my co-worker around 20 minutes each.

I was able to re-use the little girl avatar on subsequent RPTs - she became a minor character in the world that people knew and could interact with at random times - sometimes for RPTs, sometimes just because I enjoyed playing her and would bring her out to goof around with the "adults" in the game.

[In Dreams]

What do you mean new major characters?

In a lot of other RP environs, there are PCs that are real movers and shakers on a level bigger than they can do on Arm. They can start wars or affect the political landscape beyond small personal conflicts. It seems like PCs are in a world with a very low ceiling here.

Why not put some trust in the players and expand the scope of our impact on the world a little bit?

[wizturbo]

Some more random examples of "low budget" encounter style events, that don't necessarily involve combat...mainly because I think the combat RPT's probably see the most attention now and days:

• An incredibly harsh sandstorm hits, and staff go around animating the world to show just how devastating it can be.  Kill off mounts, periodic HP damage to those who don't take cover, etc.
• Drop a single tiny nugget of silver in a random spot, watch the excitement and plots that come from it.
• A Red Robe of the Trade Ministry decides to make a spot inspection of the Kadian compound.  You have 1 IC day to prepare for their arrival....GO!
• A shipment of spice is lost in a sandstorm, and House Kurac tells the PC Fist unit to go ride out and find it before it's stolen. (Oh, and by the way, the same rumor is dropped to numerous other groups...just for a little competition.

I'm a big fan of some rewards, trophies, perks being available too for a successful outing.  It feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

[Erythil]

It feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

This is probably an overreaction to the constant accusations of staff favoritism in certain quarters, and the past reality of blatant staff favoritism and avatarism as represented by the fabled Floating Castle Guy.

[Malken]

What do you mean new major characters?

I see a lot of you want to see plot.  Now when you guys talk these large plots, are we talking plots that you guys see, but are unable to interact with, but may affect the game world you play in?  Say for example, a battle between Red Storm and Some Raiders where fights will be heard about on the rumor boards, or through animations, but you really have no capacity to change the outcome.  You may see a few raiders outside Red Storm, you can kill them, but this doesn't mean you beat them back.

Or are you guys looking for more interactive large plots?  Something where player action does make a difference.  Say for example the raider leader is camped somewhere and if the players kill him, Red Storm may owe a debt to the players.

The big difference here is how much time is invested.  Big plots that include major player interaction require a lot of work, planned RPTs, planning, etc.  That which doesn't require much interaction and really only affects the game world and the players are the viewers and somewhat affected, these are more easy to manage on a staff level.

These are just some talking points, so I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say.

I know that my "Why not both?" sounds like I'm a heartless dude not caring about the amount of work you guys would have to do for that to happen, but please understand that by that I mean that it could be a super -long- story that would get "updated" once in a while and that new things would pop up about it, NOTICEABLE things.

Like we hear the rumors of a powerful tribal leader who has conquered the Seik and the Arabeti and he's like, "Ok you pricks, you are now one tribe and you are called the Schmoofs, no more Seik and Arabeti BS". So now the Schmoofs are under the leadership of this powerful tribal guy who may/may not have some super wicked powers and slowly he decides that he also wants to take over the tribal lands and at some point he gets somewhere with it and now the Schmoofs have a new camp deeper into the tablelands and the d-elves have to start worrying about that dude.

Then the Schmoofs leader decides that he's strong enough to take on Muk Utep and maybe he even -destroys- Muk Utep but he just wants Muk Utep's axe.. So now Muk Utep is finally gone-gone from the game and there's a power vacuum going on in Tuluk and someday (maybe months, maybe years) we'll see a new powerful dude taking over the city and Muk Utep will just be a legend of the past, so when we are all in our 50s we can tell the youngins' that there used to be a Muk Utep guy and a Tektolnes but no one remembers these guys because they have long been replaced by other powerful dudes.

Part of the story can be experienced by the players and the other part leaves "permanent" and new powerful characters that take over the old ones and at least we have a sense that Armageddon has a sort of "main story" that evolves with time.

[wizturbo]

It feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

This is probably an overreaction to the constant accusations of staff favoritism in certain quarters, and the past reality of blatant staff favoritism and avatarism as represented by the fabled Floating Castle Guy.

I'm also not suggesting we give PC's steel swords and flying mounts (at least not often...something along those lines should happen every few years though).  I just mean simple "uncommon" level stuff.  Here's an unusual gith book.  It's written in their foreign tongue, so, you aren't ever going to read it...but you have it!   Or here's an odd colored mount, or let me tell you a secret you might not otherwise find out...  You know, stuff that makes you go "neat!", especially for us veterans who rarely get those kind of moments from day to day play.

[Lizzie]

In reference to my above post: My point is, I'd love to see "real characters" - avatars who might not have any particular significance to the game world, but be played by staff, who serve a "while you're bored, here's just a little something fun to chew on" function. Maybe the one-armed ex-recruit of a dead VNPC Guild boss who you bring out in the Gaj to demonstrate why a new player should probably not go around telling everyone he's a thief and is for hire. Or perhaps have one of the Kadian Junior agents of some other virtual Kadian crew come to the crafting hall to bitch about how he had to fire everyone in his crew for insubordination and now he needs exactly two pairs of white silk gloves for Lord Jojo Fale in an hour or else, and he'll pay 200 sids to the first one to bring them to him as a bonus.

Or some random grebber outside Luir's comes rushing up to the firepit (where there's a bunch of PCs resting their mounts), all bloodied up and not looking well, screaming about the crazed gurth (and then make some weird spotted gurth that some evil VNPC hunter glued a lit tube of aggross to its mouth or something and give it mul rage with a hopped up offense and unarmed skill - their prize for taking it down: the tube of aggross and maybe an interesting arrow).

Or, my personal favorite - have a tregil take a shit on a Kurac sergeant's boots when they're out hunting

[LauraMars]

I wasn't really suggesting any specific plot or story ideas (the ones mentioned are interesting though).   Just the idea of having heavy plot elements hanging in the background like curtains is something I miss recognizing.   It's also something that can naturally spawn plenty of smaller player-driven plots if twisted right.  

If there's a big story grinding slowly into existence, people can feel it, they can smell it, and they want to get involved and get their friends involved.  It's usually more than "there's something in the sewer again!" or "guys its raider o clock" or even "POLITICS: THE RPT" (there is absolutely nothing wrong with those types of plots either, btw. All that stuff is aces too). That feeling of a main plotline simmering on the back burner is hard to articulate, but it's just something that I've noticed seems to be absent at the moment, though I am sure it will come around again eventually.  

I do feel, however, that flexibility and spontaneity are pretty key attitudes to have when attempting something like that.  The more flexibility a plot has at the outset, the better.  I've seen multi-month, multi-clan plots spawn from a single npc with a treasure map, I doubt there was a ten point proposal and color coded outline behind the idea initially.  All I'm saying is, if anyone feels motivated to write that kind of story, I think they should write it. DO IT.  Throw dumb ideas at players until they stick, then be flexible, if players go somewhere with it that you weren't expecting (and they will), don't get frustrated - follow them off the tracks.  Players are dice, and they just need someone to roll them.  

If people don't wanna do any of that well that's ok too. It's just a hobby at the end of the day.  Most dungeon masters dungeon master because they want to, not because they feel they have to.  But hopefully there's still people who want to be the master of this dungeon.

(edit: the above is kinda directed at leader pcs too.)

[Alesan]

I like the idea of mini-plots and things to make the world feel alive on a general week-to-week basis. Even if it's just things you hear on the rumor boards. Little things that change the world in a noticeable way would be nice, too. The sandstorm thing someone mentioned, for example.

And while I'm not really good at coming up with examples, I think occasional events that actually involve PCs in some way would create considerable interest. They don't necessarily have to be things that PCs can shape and influence, but being actually involved in things even if you aren't a mover-shaker PC would go a long way to keeping interest alive.

I think the player retention issue extends beyond new players. I struggle to play lately because there's so many other games grabbing my attention while I simply keep Armageddon connected in case something interesting happens. I'm not the kind of player who can start plots and make things happen. I'm more of a follower than a leader. But I still want to enjoy the game somehow.

[wizturbo]

LauraMars for president.  +1

[nauta]

It feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

This is probably an overreaction to the constant accusations of staff favoritism in certain quarters, and the past reality of blatant staff favoritism and avatarism as represented by the fabled Floating Castle Guy.

Not sure where that quote is from, but that brings up another topic entirely: positivity!

Nobody wants to perceive (much less for there to be) favoritism.  I think the history of bitching out there has shown that much.  But staff can 'reward' in a very broad sense in a variety of other ways, ways that encourage people to stick to it, roleplay, and get things going.

1. Use encouraging language.  Staff has to say 'no', a lot, but they can do so in a positive way.  Try to suggest other ways to get what they want done that might fit the gameworld better.  Try to find what's positive out of something, and highlight that, rather than just the negatives.

2. Be proactive/collaborative.  Try to figure out why the player is asking for what they are asking, or doing what they are doing, and get in there and nudge them and encourage them.  Staff has more knowledge than we do, so they can really use that knowledge to move our own plots along.

3. Do something positive, not just negative. Staff has to animate a lot to have the world respond in negative ways to players.  I've very rarely seen it respond in positive ways.  (I don't mean backrubs or mustache waxings, although that's fine.  But it's nice to see neutral or positive animations now and then.) Look into player bios and figure out what story they are trying to tell, and animate the world to encourage that story, in really minor ways that drive that story forward.

4. Kudos? Staff could send out kudos when they see you doing something good. I received one once a long time ago. More of that.  Kudos are amazing.  Just fucking amazing.

I'm sure this is all already happening to some extent, but those are ways of 'rewarding' players without dipping into 'favoritism'.  I think they'd also address another issue, which has been hinted at before: non-sponsored leadership burnout.  What's that?  It's this frustration you feel when you try to get stuff going on the ground level, and bump into walls, be it staff or just players dying out, not playing along.

[wizturbo]

4. Kudos? Staff could send out kudos when they see you doing something good. I received one once a long time ago. More of that.  Kudos are amazing.  Just fucking amazing.

Staff kudos...  wow!  Such an easy thing to do, and could have such a positive impact.  This is one of those things that seems so obvious in hindsight, but is so rarely mentioned on the GDB...  Getting kudos from players is great, but players don't see everything staff do.  A character might seem boring and lame, but behind the scenes been freaking awesome...  Having staff give out those butt pats could go a long, long way in retention.

Btw, I agree with all three of your points (especially 3 and 4)...but #4 seems like a total slam dunk.

[BadSkeelz]

As pathetic I think it is that people want a reach-around from staff to let them know they're doing a good jerb playing a game, yeah, positive reinforcement is nice. It's the main reason I request account notes.

[Delirium]

Less snarky condescension on the GDB would be nice too.

[nauta]

4. Kudos? Staff could send out kudos when they see you doing something good. I received one once a long time ago. More of that.  Kudos are amazing.  Just fucking amazing.

Staff kudos...  wow!  Such an easy thing to do, and could have such a positive impact.  This is one of those things that seems so obvious in hindsight, but is so rarely mentioned on the GDB...  Getting kudos from players is great, but players don't see everything staff do.  A character might seem boring and lame, but behind the scenes been freaking awesome...  Having staff give out those butt pats could go a long, long way in retention.

Btw, I agree with all three of your points (especially 3 and 4)...but #4 seems like a total slam dunk.

High five.  (I still think magickers are gross and scary.) :-)

Anyway, in the background too, kudos  would also offset those hideously negative, often contentious, negative account notes I'm sure we all have.

[Desertman]

Less snarky condescension on the GDB would be nice too.

Oh, this reminds me, sort of.

For a long time when I started playing this game I DIDN'T KNOW THE GDB EXISTED.

I had no clue we had a forum.

Maybe we could also point players to the forum during character generation so they have somewhere to "dick around" until their app gets approved. I think there might be a small message in there somewhere about it? I can't recall. But something more prominent to make sure they know about the forums and can come here for help/questions etc might be nice.

[wizturbo]

As pathetic I think it is that people want a reach-around from staff to let them know they're doing a good jerb playing a game, yeah, positive reinforcement is nice. It's the main reason I request account notes.

When you phrase it that way, it sounds so ugly and bad...  Honestly, it's just cool for people to appreciate your character.  Nothing really bad about it, and staff are in a position to see more than anyone else.

[wizturbo]

Maybe we could also point players to the forum during character generation so they have somewhere to "dick around" until their app gets approved. I think there might be a small message in there somewhere about it? I can't recall. But something more prominent to make sure they know about the forums and can come here for help/questions etc might be nice.

Noooo!!!!!!  Let them enjoy the game without reading our jaded, corrupted ways of thinking for a little while. 

[BadSkeelz]

Less snarky condescension on the GDB would be nice too.

My first thought on seeing this thread was "It'd be nice if we didn't have so many threads whinging about the game." I worry that it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy and overall negative atmosphere.

When was the last time we had a log posted and everyone reminisced over how cools things were? I found those threads inspiring.

[Voular]

Timesink deletion. Staff interaction. Make the world more mysterious by eliminating the systems rules with more staff meddling with your shit.

What made me stay was all the attention my first clan admin showed me, without me even knowing it was an admin doing it. Years later when that sort of interaction was all scaled back it blew my mind - and the game has never really been the same for me. D&D would be boring if your DM only came around to correct you if you tried to bend the rules.

I am sure you have a large pool of players who are inactive who have years of playtime logged, you could contact them directly and ask what would bring them back - they could probably add a lot of quality and help intergrate new players as well?

It is however hard to make a suggestion here that isn't work intensive or that will cancel itself out by making another person leave because of the change etc.