A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times

[Delirium]

Imagine that, the game having different plots to offer for different parts of the playerbase.

[BadSkeelz]

I liked your first post better. I've updated my signature accordingly.

[Patuk]

Keep huge antagonists of doom in the 'things man was not meant to meddle with' category, and tell templars to not send in the Gemmed next time someone steals his favorite beetle.

Now we can all go home happy.

[nauta]

The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').

I pointed out this time period in my post, and why using it as the platform for how to get mages involved is bad.

Edited out literally because I say it too much.  Also added here:  Likewise...those times were not 'increased clans accepting mages' as was the assertion.  That was a clan being made for mages, where they banded together, and became the primary resource of the templarate for pretty much any goal they could have, because again...mages make the mundane mostly useless, particularly in groups.

I wouldn't recommend playing a gemmed except as a flavour role in the current system.  I certainly wouldn't recommend playing a Vivaduan, Elkrosian, or Rukkian gemmed.  Drovians and Whirans do get some tasks, but even then it's not much.  It really isn't.

Vivaduans in particular are designed to work well with a mundane, but there are absolutely no mundanes that you can work with, within documentation.  On their own, Vivaduans have nothing going for them, and staff recognizes this: the big plotlines for Vivaduans are filling cisterns and wet mudsex in between long bouts of staring at the wall.  Every RL month or so, a templar or an Oash noble might ask you if you know a Whiran or a Drovian.

Current staff have also explicitly asked those who traditionally deal with the gemmed (templars and Oash and AoD) to not get gemmed involved in things (to put it mildly), and they also have explicitly told gemmed that they will not support 'high magickal' plotlines at this time.

Here's what I assume is the reasoning: magic is scary and dangerous and rare in Zalanthas.  Since, in terms of code, magic isn't actually scary or dangerous, the only way to make this work is to make it rare.  Unfortunately, this means that the gemmed will be excluded both ICly (obviously, and rightly) and OOCly (no plots, player-driven or staff-driven, no clan and so no OOC coordination for RPTs, no leadership).

[BadSkeelz]

If you don't think magick is scary code-wise then either you or the person attacking you with it is not doing a very good job.

Magick should be OOCly disdained because it can be such an overpowered force compared to mundanes that it trivializes mundane abilities as soon as its introduced.

[Old Kank]

The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

I wasn't even around during the magic explosion of the CAM, but post-1998, I can think of two clans that had magic as their primary focus.  I can think of two noble houses, three merchant groups, two criminal organizations, and at least three tribes that had magic-based roles.  If I look at player-run groups that lasted more than 6 months, but never became full-fledged clans, I can easily add a few more to that count.

Don't even get me started on prior to 1998, what with it's Tuluki mage temples and shit.

That's all a moot point, though, because I agree with you, on just about everything you said.

But where I think we've failed, collectively, is that each time these conversations come up, we have a tendency to say, "Yeah, well, that's a tough role, and if you can't deal with the restrictions then you probably shouldn't play that."  Or worse, "That role doesn't really serve a purpose, so we're going to consolidate it."  So muls had their karma requirements raised.  Slaves were nixed.  Every city elf clan ever was closed.  Noble guards were closed.  Noble houses were closed.  A whole city was closed.

It's been a long process of attrition with very little added in to replace the things we've lost along the way.

[Delirium]

Adding more mundane abilities and more utility and flexibility to the existing skills would go a long way toward making them "just as fun" as mages.

The thing that really draws me to the magick skillset is how you can use the abilities you gain in all sorts of creative ways.

The mundane skillset is somewhat lacking in comparison, which is when you get the whole "ugh, mages can do everything better" mindset.

All that said, mages SHOULD be insanely powerful, which is why they have so many IC and OOC limitations placed on them.

Just that, when in days of yore, coders gave magick a lot of love, we haven't seen an equal amount of attention paid to coded abilities.

Make combat and weapon skills easier to skill up, period.

[Delirium]

I liked your first post better. I've updated my signature accordingly.

I was trying out that "not being snarky" thing... even though I know you can take it.

[Dresan]

The last time I had an enjoyable character was when Tuluk was still around. This is because tuluk/allanak were playing the others antagonist which inspired people( me included) to plot around it. This isn't about Tuluk though, its more about the lack of visible plots, antagonists and world narrative that further inspire smaller sub-plots. This game is exciting and incredibly fun when something big is going on, it doesn't have to be magickal either, but it does have to be big enough to make people wonder what will happen next.  Whether it be the closing of tuluk, the last HRPT, or any number of things.  

At the moment, I agree with much of what old kank had to say.  The world does feel stale however thinking back it always feels stale when there isn't anything visible and big going on.

Usually following a post like this there will be players and staff assuring me that there is a ton and tons of stuff going on, in every corner of the world. However, I don't see it, and I haven't seen any real exciting story-line/plot I felt I could get engaged in since the closing of tuluk. This is not to say there isn't something going on, but at this point in time I wish there was stuff going on that just smacked you in the face the moment you logged on. That engaged you whether you liked it or not. That effected your character and your survival. That basically makes the world come alive.

However, I also hear what the staff has said, doing grand things takes time, work and effort. Not to mention even if they do something, it only drives numbers up while they do it, but as soon as it ends, numbers go back down. I don't know what the solution is to this unfortunately. I wish there was some solution to this that was sustainable and didn't require constant work from a large group of staff members or months of investment time for players.

[Jihelu]

Someone make a Dio Brando character and the problem is solved.

[In Dreams]

The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').

I pointed out this time period in my post, and why using it as the platform for how to get mages involved is bad.

Edited out literally because I say it too much.  Also added here:  Likewise...those times were not 'increased clans accepting mages' as was the assertion.  That was a clan being made for mages, where they banded together, and became the primary resource of the templarate for pretty much any goal they could have, because again...mages make the mundane mostly useless, particularly in groups.

I wouldn't recommend playing a gemmed except as a flavour role in the current system.  I certainly wouldn't recommend playing a Vivaduan, Elkrosian, or Rukkian gemmed.  Drovians and Whirans do get some tasks, but even then it's not much.  It really isn't.

Vivaduans in particular are designed to work well with a mundane, but there are absolutely no mundanes that you can work with, within documentation.  On their own, Vivaduans have nothing going for them, and staff recognizes this: the big plotlines for Vivaduans are filling cisterns and wet mudsex in between long bouts of staring at the wall.  Every RL month or so, a templar or an Oash noble might ask you if you know a Whiran or a Drovian.

Current staff have also explicitly asked those who traditionally deal with the gemmed (templars and Oash and AoD) to not get gemmed involved in things (to put it mildly), and they also have explicitly told gemmed that they will not support 'high magickal' plotlines at this time.

Here's what I assume is the reasoning: magic is scary and dangerous and rare in Zalanthas.  Since, in terms of code, magic isn't actually scary or dangerous, the only way to make this work is to make it rare.  Unfortunately, this means that the gemmed will be excluded both ICly (obviously, and rightly) and OOCly (no plots, player-driven or staff-driven, no clan and so no OOC coordination for RPTs, no leadership).

Honestly, I always feel really really bad that I can't interact with gemmed PCs more. I regularly see some really interesting ones, and it pains me that I can't finagle more ways to get them involved or even just have my PC hold a conversation with them.

But then when I interact with them, I feel like I shouldn't be, because documents say my PC probably wouldn't.

I've honestly had no itch to ever play a gemmed magicker, just knowing it would probably be so very lonely.

[wizturbo]

Vivaduans in particular are designed to work well with a mundane, but there are absolutely no mundanes that you can work with, within documentation.  On their own, Vivaduans have nothing going for them, and staff recognizes this: the big plotlines for Vivaduans are filling cisterns and wet mudsex in between long bouts of staring at the wall.  Every RL month or so, a templar or an Oash noble might ask you if you know a Whiran or a Drovian.

No where is it documented that mundanes cannot work with Vivaduans.  The only thing that is documented is working with them is going to come with social and cultural consequences.  No one is saying that a mundane who buddies up with a Vivaduan is somehow a bad roleplayer and isn't following the documentation, as long as they understand the consequences. 

I have played numerous elementalist roles and I've done all kinds of tasks for people on the sly.  No, you won't get official work from anything but House Oash, but you very much can get work behind the scenes.

Current staff have also explicitly asked those who traditionally deal with the gemmed (templars and Oash and AoD) to not get gemmed involved in things (to put it mildly), and they also have explicitly told gemmed that they will not support 'high magickal' plotlines at this time.

This isn't true in my experiences.  I've played as a Templar, in Oash, and in the AOD, and never have I been asked by staff not to include Gemmed in anything.  There are social consequences for including them ICly, and depending on the character I'm playing, that may or may not create a deterrent to bringing them in on a plot.  Because I like to play the norm, rather than the exception, I'll admit that the social consequences are often a deterrent for my mundane characters...but I've seen tons of exceptions in my years, and I've created tons of exceptions while playing Gemmed characters myself. 

Also, as I posted earlier in this thread, I've had "high magickal" plotlines approved within the last year.  All four of the staff request examples below were related to magick, with varying degrees of potency (the first is on par with what you might've seen in the CAM days).

Third request - Requested a plot line to gain powerful, non-standard magickal abilities on top of a class that already has plenty of them.  I won't go into detail on this one, because it's ICly sensitive in nature. 
Verdict:  Shockingly....approved, but I was told up front it wouldn't be an overnight thing.  There were some staff-assisted animations of otherworldly entities to begin this plot line.  The pursuit of this plot went for a quite a while, and I never reached it's conclusion due to character death or storage.

Fourth request (still the same character) - Because request #3 was taking a while, I asked for an intermediary step towards my character's pursuit of otherworldly powers.
Verdict: Approved.  Plotline completed after a staff supported "quest" that involved my PC, and other PC's i dragged into it.  I did obtain the thing I was looking for... but be careful what you wish for kids... 

Fifth request- I planned an RPT for the clan to visit a remote location, and wanted staff support for it.
Verdict:  Approved.  Staff supported the RPT, spooky things happened there.  Those spooky things are still happening there today as far as I know.  The zone has been altered, perhaps permanently...we'll see?

Sixth request - A project in Allanak, that would create a new building, and a new type of coded service provided by one of the noble houses.
Verdict:  Approved, but hinted at a warning that this could have some unexpected consequences.  I was in the process of pursuing this, but it got cut short due to character death or storage.

Here's what I assume is the reasoning: magic is scary and dangerous and rare in Zalanthas.  Since, in terms of code, magic isn't actually scary or dangerous, the only way to make this work is to make it rare.  Unfortunately, this means that the gemmed will be excluded both ICly (obviously, and rightly) and OOCly (no plots, player-driven or staff-driven, no clan and so no OOC coordination for RPTs, no leadership).

First off, magick is absurdly powerful and dangerous as is, right now, with no tweaks what so ever.  I mean completely overpoweredly dangerous.  Anyone who thinks otherwise, doesn't know enough about magick.

The reason there's encouragement ICly not to include magickers in primarily mundane plots and RPT's is that people are terrified of magickers.  The OOC reason is magick is so powerful it can quickly trivialize the challenge and excitement of that plot or RPT.

If you want magickal plots and RPT's, staff will be glad to support them in my experiences, as long as you're trying to keep the magick with the magickers.

[wizturbo]

Honestly, I always feel really really bad that I can't interact with gemmed PCs more. I regularly see some really interesting ones, and it pains me that I can't finagle more ways to get them involved or even just have my PC hold a conversation with them.

But then when I interact with them, I feel like I shouldn't be, because documents say my PC probably wouldn't.

I've honestly had no itch to ever play a gemmed magicker, just knowing it would probably be so very lonely.

If you have an itch to talk to a Gemmed, you just need to come up with good IC reasons why it's okay to do so.

Some examples:

1)  You have a disease (or someone close to you does).  Would your character risk the freaky mages in order to be cured?
2)  Have you fought beside one of these Gemmed in combat?   Being in combat situations creates bonds between people, and it's perfectly reasonable to extend the olive branch to a guy who might've saved the life of someone you care about, or yourself!
3)  Maybe your character doesn't walk the line like everyone else.  Allanak is not Tuluk.  Tuluki are born and bred to hate magick without exception.  Allanaki are not, but the stigma is certainly prevalent.

[Beethoven]

I agree with wizturbo, at least on the being friends with magickers thing. If there were no exceptions or to or ways to shift out of the 'everyone hates and avoids magick all the time' paradigm, there would be no ordinary people driven to pursue sorcery, to give one example. Your PC can interact with magickers; you just have to play it within the docs. Some people will probably call you a speshul snowflake, but in my mind as long as you're making an effort to portray a realistic product of your PC's environment, you're okay.

[Jave]

To add:

If you see a gemmed at the bar next to you, there is nothing in the docs to mandate or even suggest that you need to run away screaming and or attack them on sight otherwise you're a bad role player.

There are innumerable ways you can interact with the gemmed which are all perfectly in line with the gameworld's theme and setting. Here's a few I've done over the years:

• Don't notice their gem right away, especially if they have something else on their neck location that might be covering it or they have something in their tdesc to the same effect. Wala, now you can treat them like a normal person for a bit until it's brought to your character's attention what they actually are -- then you can RP out how that changes your behavior from before, which is a lot of fun.
• Be exceptionally wary around them. Talk with them but treat them with that same sort of suppressed fear one might employ when dealing with a Templar. Except more, because Templar are better than you and probably know how to control their power ... this grebber is a wild dog on a leash too long for comfort. Don't let them touch you. If they get too close do something superstitious to ward off whatever evil they might have accidentally or intentionally wafted your way. -- All of this can be done while still having your small talk at the bar.
• Employ them on the sly. You have the Way after all. Let them know telepathically that they can't let anyone know you're doing business with them of course but you do need X, Y, and Z done.

There is nothing about Allanaki culture that says you're not allowed to talk to the gemmed. Some people who really really really don't like them might feel that way, but other people might have a cousin who turned up gemmed. Or a best friend. Or a lover. Or a child. They are a strange second class citizen to be sure, but not a plague victim.

[ibusoe]

I agree with wizturbo, at least on the being friends with magickers thing. If there were no exceptions or to or ways to shift out of the 'everyone hates and avoids magick all the time' paradigm, there would be no ordinary people driven to pursue sorcery, to give one example. Your PC can interact with magickers; you just have to play it within the docs. Some people will probably call you a speshul snowflake, but in my mind as long as you're making an effort to portray a realistic product of your PC's environment, you're okay.

Once upon a time, I led the charge of people who shamed others for having mundane/mage cuddle parties.

Now I agree with you that people have made their point.  In my opinion, role play standards have risen to the point that people should not have as their primary concern that "Ewww, mages and mundanes should *never* talk to each other."

Besides the other helpful advice, I think there is a big difference between someone you'd associate with in public, and someone you'd associate with behind closed doors.  Associating with a mage?  There are plenty of people in real life who have a private interest in Santoria, would privately visit a psychic, would privately check their Horroscope.  The percentage of people who would do all of this in full view of their family or coworkers is much smaller.

Also, it's worth mentioning that just because you're interacting with people doesn't mean that you genuinely like them.  Let's say you were caught by the militia with a few hits of spice on you?  Shucks, why don't you blame it on a gemmer?  Blame them for selling it to you.  Even where mages and mundanes may reasonably associate with each other, one can imagine it wouldn't take much to get one side to turn on the other.  

[ibusoe]

I'll add that I think one factor to take into consideration, is how long has your character been in the game?

Here's the rule of thumb that I use for my characters, although I'm not proposing this as a standard that any one else should follow. 

My first (game) year of playing a character?  He's either a dirty city kid from the ghetto who is ignorant and supersitious, or else he's a stupid bumpking hayseed from some backwoods party of the wastelands.

After he's been in the game for a couple of years, he's travelled a bit, and learned something of the world.  Then he may be a little bit less reactionary when confronted with the unfamilar.

...of course he might wake up with a suspcious rash one day, unrelated to anything in particular, and simply choose to blame this on a mage.  You never really know, right?  Knife in the back would probably take care of everything.

[wizturbo]

Besides the other helpful advice, I think there is a big difference between someone you'd associate with in public, and someone you'd associate with behind closed doors.  Associating with a mage?  There are plenty of people in real life who have a private interest in Santoria, would privately visit a psychic, would privately check their Horroscope.  The percentage of people who would do all of this in full view of their family or coworkers is much smaller.

Yup.  Great point.  

Especially true for a world like Zalanthas, where magick is a real observable force.

[seidhr]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

[Majikal]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

I have the sudden urge to learn how to time travel in game and then via request place my pc in every cool and important scene on the player submissions page as a background character... yes...

[Eyeball]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

[Jihelu]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

Because they didn't pre app it of course.

[Eyeball]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

Because they didn't pre app it of course.

Do you mean by putting it into the character application as a special note or something?

[Jihelu]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

Because they didn't pre app it of course.

Do you mean by putting it into the character application as a special note or something?

I was just being pissy/sarcastic...
That seems to be all I do most of the time.

Idk really.

[Jave]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

I tried looking for this through the request tool but couldn't find anything about it 
Maybe this rings a bell for another staff member who was involved.