A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times

[Molten Heart]

Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

I feel like this is worth repeating, because it's something I feel has changed a lot.  I don't really know why, and I don't have any particular insight, but it might be worth discussing.

I feel like the only viable roles left in the game are: soldier, hunter, grebber, crafter, and aide.  In my mind, a lot of supported roles have dropped off that list because they're just not that viable: thief, assassin, spy, salesman, raider, tribal, mage, elf, dwarf, mul, sorcerer, psionicist.

It sounds like you might be playing in a different part of the game world where those things don't exist. I don't know where that might be but it's definitely not where I've played in the last year, all the way up to this morning (which was the last time I logged into the game).

First - dwarf, mul, elf, mage, sorcerer, psionicist, tribal: all coded things involving race and guild/subguilt. None of these things are roles. Psionicists can be soldiers, hunters, grebbers, crafters, and aides. They can also be thieves, spies, assassins, and salesmen. Dwarves, sorcs, elves, and tribals can too. Muls are really the only ones on that list that have a fairly limited choice of roles; they must all play escaped slaves. That is their role. But as escaped slaves, they can also be thieves, assassins, spies, raiders, salesmen.

Thieves, assassins, spies, salesmen, are all viable roles; I've played them recently and know several currently-living characters playing in all of those roles. None of them have dropped off the list. They're all perfectly viable.

Most roles need to conform to a certain types in order to gain acceptance in the established clans. Without clan membership, most roles aren't really viable other than surviving off the automated systems provided by the code. Do staff support player plots and projects outside of clans?

[Lizzie]

Most roles need to conform to a certain types in order to gain acceptance in the established clans. Without clan membership, most roles aren't really viable other than surviving off the automated systems provided by the code. Do staff support player plots and projects outside of clans?

Yes, most roles need to conform to certain types in order to gain acceptance in established clans. I agree with that, and it makes sense. There's no point in having a First Hunter who can't hunt, and there's no point in hiring a pacifist soldier who refuses to arrest people on moral grounds. I don't agree that most roles aren't viable without clan membership other than surviving off automated systems provided by the code.

Staff supports player plots and projects outside clans, that, in fact, is one of the reasons why the Independent Staff exist.

[Old Kank]

Yeah uh... I'm confused by your post, Old Kank. Nevermind the fact that several of the things you list (like dwarf) are not roles in and of themselves... why are they somehow less viable now?

I'm glad you picked dwarf!  That's one I have an explanation for.  Closing Tuluk reduced the number of clans that will allow dwarves.  It was already small, but now it's even smaller.  Same for elves.

I think the best way that I can explain my thought process is this:  A year ago, I made a ranger.  Tried multiple times to get a job with a "flavor" role as a gardener, stable hand, cook, courier, etc..  It didn't work out.  Every clan leader asked the same questions.  "Are you good in storms?"  "Can you fight?"  "Can you craft?"  "No? No? No?  Sorry, can't help you."  Eventually I gave up on the concept, and the character took a job as a hunter.

Or, look at mages.  In Olden Times, clans would hire Vivaduans.  From the help file:  "Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage..." but in practice, today, those who would hire a mage is a very, very small group.  So I think about playing a mage, and then I think, "Ehhh, it'll be super boring and isolated, unless I luck out and find some other bored and isolated mages."

I don't know.  Maybe it's just me.

[Harmless]

it's definitely not just you, Old Kank. I am storing a character now for my next role.. and it's one of the viable ones you mentioned.

[wizturbo]

*whips out his stick to beat the dead horse*

Gemmed should be a clan.

[Jave]

*whips out his stick to beat the dead horse*

Gemmed should be a clan.

I always liked the idea that the gemmed were a clan in the same way the Jews in Nazi Germany who had to wear stars sewn into their clothing were a clan.

[Erythil]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

[Majikal]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

More gemmed ig than elves. Guaranteed.

Play elves 2016!!
Except I won't... cause ya know.. they suck.

[Taven]

A Grand Summary of Thread Ideas and Suggestions

I tried to summarize everything correctly. If I mis-represented anyone or anything, just let me know (it was not intentional). Likewise, if I missed anything people were talking about, you can give a shout-out on that, too.


OOC-Related

• Staff Communication - Improve staff communication by having standards of polite and courteous behavior; possibility of developing guidelines/requirements staff-side. Jave talks about how staff expectations are already toward being courteous. He didn't think it would hurt to have it codified, though didn't mention if there would be a push for that.

• Adjusting Request Process to Streamline It - Either streamlining processes that require requests, or making it clearer why steps are needed, enabling players to feel more productive about requests. Nyr elaborated a little on how requests are already helping to streamline things and that documentation was already created to clarify expectations (the example used was for creating tribes

• Have Guidelines for How Long Requests Take - Possibility of making guidelines for how long typical requests take (and having staff contact to say that they're working on it, if it's taking longer). Jave mentioned that storytellers actually are assessed by how quickly requests are turned around, and Adhira posted to expand on that, by saying that ST's goals are to turn around requests they can handle in 5 days or sooner.

• Reports to Include Better IC/OOC Distinguishing - Better separation/clarity of IC/OOC on results ("You are free to pursue this in game. However, your character would have heard..."). Jave posted about how he heartily endorses specifying what is IC and OOC in reports, though it was not discussed being a formal requirement.

• New-Player PC Creation Assistance - Enabling new players to better get the support that they need to make a PC and have some guidance, so to better help player retention. Possibility of allowing helpers to set up new-player PCs and/or act as mentors for new players (beyond the typical/current helper role). Suggested by Ath as possibility, could be looked into.

Plot-Related

• Advertising Plots Better - Enabling more wide-spread advertising of plots, perhaps cultivating a presence on other MUD forums to do so (ex: voting forums). The goal is to capture some of the interest and player involvement that HRPTs or larger plots have had, or enable those not currently involved with Arm to see how active it is (and thus get interested in participating) Nergal has taken charge on this and will be advertising on the Mud Connector and on Top MUD Sites. Posts will have an initial intro about the game, and be updated with advertisements for player and staff run RPTs.

• Staff Initiative on More Plots (Small Scale) - The sense that not all staff plots need to be big, sometimes staff can just take an idea and roll with it. The sense that more spontaneous or small-level staff-initiated plots or "things to do" would be welcomed. Possibly including more low-level animations, or possibly enabling things that could lead to larger plots if players chose to pursue them. Jave says that not only do staff already do this, they're are even 2 that he's already involved in, even as a new staffer.

• More Magick Plots - More plots that include a magickal element of some sort. The sense that it shouldn't be overdone, but should include some of the fear of magick or strange, mysical things that Arm has out there. Also the sense that this may make playing mages more accessible/interesting. Seidhr says that staff are willing to support "reasonable" magicker plots, but that "high magick" (unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff) staff like to stay away from. Emphasis on answer would seem to imply that players can pursue, but did not address if staff would initiate more of.

• Make Playtimes More Available (Better for Offpeakers) - Some way that allows people to see what locale/clans are active during their playtimes. One possibility would be to publish "peaktimes" and "highest offpeak numbers" of areas per month. Note that that may not capture full numbers for areas that are traveled through, or have temporary visitors.

• Announce RPT Type and Location in Newsfeed Upon Completion - When an RPT is over and done with, stick it in the newsfeed of Armagedon that a specific area had an RPT, as well as what type (social, combat, magick, high-class, low-class, etc). Goal is to better draw attention and interest, and make it more obvious what sections are more active or what types of RPT needs are being filled.

• RPT Schedule Coordination Requests - A request tool option that would allow for specific people to OOCly coordinate specific RPTs. Useful when coordinating large RPTs, and staff-monitored to prevent abuse. Alternatively, something similar that releases playtimes to specific players trying to coordinate, released by staff with player approval.  Suggested by Ath as possibility, could be looked into.

World-Related

• Adding in titles and other accomplishment-rewarding small perks - Something for PCs to accomplish and gain that may not have a huge impact. An example is a fancy title or the like, or specific higher-end seating in the arena, and so on. Possibly something staff could work to develop, alternatively something that PC leadership may be able to utilize more in their play, at their discretion.

• Add flexible point-system for PCs putting in effort - A non-karma system that rewards characters who have accomplished certain yet-undecided things with different perks, such as flexible points to be used towards certain skills, etc.  Ath likes idea of, but status/viability uncertain at this point.

• Availability for would-be clans to get real-estate - Possibility of including more opportunities for non-clanned, but would-be clans to be warehouses or the like quicker.  Commented on by Ath - With current way things work, favors those who have already, intended to try and enable PCs working on a clan to best keep their projects going.

• More representation of northern culture - Finding a way of introducing more options to make the north or northern PCs have more options. Challenge of balancing this with current game expectations (north not intended to be a real hub for players).  Nyr comments suggest that goals are still accomplishable by northern PCs, but will have to have more southern focus and adaptations (specifically MMH stuff). This may suggest north is unlikely to see further attention (as was purpose of closing Tuluk).

Role-Related

• Sponsored Opposition Roles - Sponsored support for roles intended to be antagonists. This could be raiders, sorcerers, or other powerful entities seeking to be a foil to traditional clans. Important because of the extreme difficulties and time required to put in before getting here on one's own. Note, that some of this was done in the past (secret southern spy roles in Tuluk, in volcano moving HRPT), but may not have lead to desired results (players may not feel that it was satisfying to them). Possible fix is to limit this to broader roles that are less about spy ops, and have the ability to include more players. Commented on by Ath that villain/opposition roles are already doable, but that people need to put in the time and effort to get there. Seemed unlikely from comments that raider/sorc opposition support would be given in a sponsored fashion.

• Supported Flavor Roles - Support of PCs who want to specifically enhance the game in a certain, limited way, by giving them coded support and perks. Sort of an 'NPC plus'. Challenge to provide enough limits on these PCs that they are flavor only, thus not getting more special support then your traditional PC role, in terms of making a lasting impact. IE, the idea is intended for PCs who want to make the moment fun, rather then leave their mark. Commented on by Ath, that focus is really enabling players to do their own thing, rather then have out-of-gate perks.

• Enable more options for City Elves - Giving city elves options for play, particularly tribal options. Mordiggian is currently working on developing a c-elf clan.

• Enable more options for Gemmers/Magickers - Giving gemmers and magickers more options for play, or making the role less isolated. Possibilities include having more people able to hire, enabling a GDB clan for gemmers to coordinate, or enabling more hang-out spaces. Balanced with desire to keep magickers scary and unloved. Jave spoke a little about the role of the gemmer, how they're intended to be ostracized, and the trade off between the safety of the gemmed, and the restrictions that come with it. The implication was that there wouldn't be changes in expanding clan options for gemmed.

Code-Related

• Flexible PC skills - Ability to have give and take on your PCs skills, less limited to guild and more open to change as your PC and their interests develop. Would likely need some sort of system behind it. Seidhr chimed in to say that while he's not opposed to the conceptual idea of having hobby skills that PCs can get with time and RP, the reality is that logs require staff time to process, and with multiple people doing this, it just wouldn't be possible to process this all.

[Eyeball]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

[Delirium]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

A major reason I had so much fun with my gemmed was because I had a big bad villain to scheme against (albeit eventually with).

A big bad villain that we couldn't just go out and wipe the floor with in an afternoon.

Trusted players need to be able to run powerful antagonists to add interest to the game.

[Armaddict]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

Is there a reason that them being less popular is particularly bad?

[Old Kank]

Is there a reason that them being less popular is particularly bad?

I think the issue is that there doesn't seem to be much place for them in the game right now.  This goes back to comments on how roles in the game have become very homogenized.

[Narf]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

Is there a reason that them being less popular is particularly bad?

All roles should be potentially fun or there's no point to having them. If something is less popular because it's never any fun, that's a problem. If it's less popular because it's just not most people's cup of tea then that'd be fine.

[Patuk]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

More gemmed ig than elves. Guaranteed.

Play elves 2016!!
Except I won't... cause ya know.. they suck.

Yes.

[Erythil]

Yeah uh... I'm confused by your post, Old Kank. Nevermind the fact that several of the things you list (like dwarf) are not roles in and of themselves... why are they somehow less viable now?

I'm glad you picked dwarf!  That's one I have an explanation for.  Closing Tuluk reduced the number of clans that will allow dwarves.  It was already small, but now it's even smaller.  Same for elves.

I think the best way that I can explain my thought process is this:  A year ago, I made a ranger.  Tried multiple times to get a job with a "flavor" role as a gardener, stable hand, cook, courier, etc..  It didn't work out.  Every clan leader asked the same questions.  "Are you good in storms?"  "Can you fight?"  "Can you craft?"  "No? No? No?  Sorry, can't help you."  Eventually I gave up on the concept, and the character took a job as a hunter.

Or, look at mages.  In Olden Times, clans would hire Vivaduans.  From the help file:  "Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage..." but in practice, today, those who would hire a mage is a very, very small group.  So I think about playing a mage, and then I think, "Ehhh, it'll be super boring and isolated, unless I luck out and find some other bored and isolated mages."

I don't know.  Maybe it's just me.

I also agree that there is limited opportunity for people to play roles that aren't essentially...code-supported video-gamey type roles.  If you want to play someone with a humble trade that is not represented by code but makes sense in the world -- like a gardener for a noble estate -- there is nothing to support you.  Nobles and templar are strictly limited in their hiring decisions by the fact that they're not allowed to officially hire more than 2, or in the latter case, 1 persons officially.  Thus it makes sense that they only want people with the greatest possible code utility.  I realize that they're able to unofficially hire an unlimited number of people, but there's really no incentive to take on a servant like a hairdresser or window-washer, no matter how good their RP, because you're not allowed to actually grant them access to your estate, which means that not only are they dependent on leaders for money, they're also dependent on leaders for even being allowed to interact with other people in their clan.  I'd like to see options to hire people at a low, unpaid, 'personal servant' rank or something like that.

Essentially, the number of non-combat roles is limited to how much sponsored PCs are willing to support them, and there are inducements to NOT support them.  Whereas I think gathering a coterie of minor minions ought to be inherently desirable as it creates more RP for everyone, and keeps the world from feeling like an MMO.

Or, for independent inconsequential flavor roles like a barber or whatever, maybe an option to set yourself as a 'tradesman' in exchange for losing your ability to do certain coded income activities like salting would be a viable solution.  A tradesman would get a small income automatically from...maybe a paymaster at a Ministry of Trade office, or something.  You could fill your flavor niche without starving, but you don't get a crutch that allows you to more easily get rich on the side.

[Patuk]

I'm asking this here and not ATS because there's a number of staffers who appear to read this thread, but do you actually need help in building a new celf clan? One month after I submitted the part one pocket edition abridged extensive docs of mine I ended up fleshing out another idea and wanted to hit myself for not submitting that instead.

I'd also not mind my old docs being reused, since I kiiiiiinda made those just to ensure they'd be viable even if the tribe would get coded. Said docs had some good ways to solve problems celf tribes might have, such as recruitment and whatnot.

I'll tell you what, Patuk. Hit me with a request (use a Character Report and address it to one of the desert elf tribes) with suggestions/thoughts/input you might have about how a c-elf clan can be executed and I'll check it out. I can't promise that you'll get an in-depth response or a bunch of feedback on your ideas because I'm going to copy paste the contents to our IDB brainstorming thread and then close out the request. But I recognize that you might have some valuable input that could be factored into our internal planning.

Okay, so, I've been sorting out my thoughts and have posted this now, and shit's going to be really long, again. I hope you'll be able to make good use of it.

Would you mind it if I also posted it to the gdb in a separate thread if I were to include some minor bits of documentation concerning my now defunct tribe? It could foster a discussion like we have here, and I don't think more feedback is a bad thing for you.

[Armaddict]

I think the issue is that there doesn't seem to be much place for them in the game right now.  This goes back to comments on how roles in the game have become very homogenized.

The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.  The number of clans hiring vivaduans has gone down by, essentially, one (a military clan), in that time.  There have been very rare exceptions throughout that time of different clans hiring on mages, and still rare but not unheard of cases of contracted mage work.  During the time of the Council of Allanaki Mages, when everything remotely plot oriented went to mages 'because they can do it easier', it literally degraded the role of the mundane to that of a bodyguard, which lasted for a decent amount of time.  During that time, when I, as a military leader, said that I didn't want my soldiers being bodyguards and to have an active role in the battle, I was literally told that if that was the case, those forces were not needed.

If that is the time period you're referring to where there was more to do, that is not something to aspire back to.  If you're referring to pre-1998, I still don't think it's something to go back to.  This is not about giving a role something to do, it's about maintaining a game world that has always been this way, and there being a repeated pressure to change it because there is want to do more with mages.  There are some that have enjoyed mages as is and as has-been, and I applaud them.  But that is part of the game, that it is not a high-magic game.

However, for those -wanting- to make it fun, there is always the option of -not- playing a gemmed.  From the times that I played mages, the most common 'thing to do' as a gemmed was hunt down the ungemmed.  Which were far more common than I think they are now.  Renegades were played often.  That doesn't mean you go around and blow everything up, and that's the status of your game.  It means you're actively hidden, doing your things, and when you get found out, you're on an entirely different storyline.  It seems to me that whenever these threads come up, it is essentially a demand for mages to be brought into the fold of normalcy because they want to play the same character type as everyone else, but do it as a mage.  Which is...again...why playing ungemmed is likely the way to go.

In other words, if you can -actually- come up with a way that people will listen to to get mages more fun that doesn't involve 'well, we should change the game world around it to make them more viable', then I'll listen as well.  But the helpfile you refer to has been discussed before, if you search for it, and the time you're referring to, I really just don't remember.  At all.  The first thing about mages I learned in this game was 'Oashi mages okay.  All other mages bad.'

Essentially, the number of non-combat roles is limited to how much sponsored PCs are willing to support them, and there are inducements to NOT support them.

I actually think this is a problem across the board.  Again.  Closing Tuluk not bad, but closing Tuluk+minimizing number of clans at the same time bad.  We have one state-run military clan, one mercenary military clan, and one merchant house military clan.  That's it.  One of those clans is autonomous, one requires external conflict, and the other has to be hired for conflicts underway.

I do not disagree with the rest of your points, just to be clear.  I just don't think that qualifier was necessary.  There are a lot of limits on roles across the board right now, some of them less understandable than others.  The hiring caps, as time goes on, have gotten under my skin more for the reasons you've said.  i.e. I think limiting military clans to this many people is okay, but limiting the number of people a noble or merchant can support is strange.

[Iiyola]

Enable more options for City Elves - Giving city elves options for play, particularly tribal options. Mordiggian is currently working on developing a c-elf clan.

Huya!! Great news! If it's true.

[Eyeball]

The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').

Now you could just remove them from play and no one would notice.

[Armaddict]

The difference here is that you seem to be referencing a time that either didn't exist, or existed pre-1998.

Hardly. For example, even in 2005, people would come by the Vivaduan temple for water and healing and cures. That's extremely rare now. Then there was the Copper War, and Echri/Horiz, and Great Lord Samos and CAM and plenty else giving gemmed things to do and be back then. In fact, gemmed became too prevalent for the liking of some (thus the term 'X-men days').

I pointed out this time period in my post, and why using it as the platform for how to get mages involved is bad.

Edited out literally because I say it too much.  Also added here:  Likewise...those times were not 'increased clans accepting mages' as was the assertion.  That was a clan being made for mages, where they banded together, and became the primary resource of the templarate for pretty much any goal they could have, because again...mages make the mundane mostly useless, particularly in groups.

[Patuk]

Ok, request sent. I hope this works out soon, two years for one tribe is a crazy long time already.

[Mordiggian]

I'm not going to get into the reasons why the advent of a new c-elf tribe has been delayed because I only joined staff relatively recently, but we're considering them a high priority project.

With that in mind, another project I mentioned (area update/expansion) is also very high priority and we all only have so many hours in a day for Arm, so I don't want to generate any expectations about turn-around.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

C-ELF CLANS SPAZZ SPAZZ

[BadSkeelz]

I think we're too hard on the gemmed and that they're becoming progressively less popular for that reason.  I'd like to see more things for them to do.

Same here. The difficulty is there will always be gemmed that people can point to in counter argument, just because there will be a trickle of people experimenting with new karma. It masks the problem.

A major reason I had so much fun with my gemmed was because I had a big bad villain to scheme against (albeit eventually with).

A big bad villain that we couldn't just go out and wipe the floor with in an afternoon.

Trusted players need to be able to run powerful antagonists to add interest to the game.

Fun for mages, boring for everyone else.