A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times

[Ath]

This is just me talking, I am not stating that this is going to happen, or will happen, but more so I am interested in some of Old Kank's suggestions and want to discuss them.

What about having it possible that when players announced an RPT, they can put in the notification about it the type of RPT it is?  Hey this is a Social RPT in Luir's at this time!  Details on the IC Board.  Still can be vague, but gives a bit more details and I can go, hmm... maybe I should have my character go find out more if it is feasible for my character.

I'm trying to think of a way we can make it so that players can state, Hey I am playing in the South and this is my playtimes!  The issues is, characters die and we don't want players to out their characters, etc etc.  How about for the off-peak players, you create some simple social RPTs?  (Ie.  There is a small mini-RPT in Red Storm at some off-peak time, see IC Board for details.  IC board talks about some people asking around about gambling at this time.)  Actually, I encourage this to be honest.  I don't see an issue with players creating more RPTs, even for more simple social experiences.  This could allow for off-peak or players that are playing in underpopulated areas to get it known...  HEY!  There are characters here!  We're Lonely!  Come visit us! (at this time)

I like the idea of a reward system to be honest, something other than karma.  On that point though, there have been many talks on reworking karma entirely, this could be apart of that.

---

I'll be honest, I think we need to work on making it easier for you all to post about RPTs and realize that RPTs don't have to be big events, it can be anything.  Even if your character isn't a host or leader, you can post about an RPT.  Use the IC boards to post that people have been gathering around this time to drink together and swap stories, or they are gathering to play some Kruth together, or maybe Tek's Tower or whatever!

What do you guys think?

EDIT:  On top of this, I am also going to make an effort to look at the post RPTs and make sure to try to be there as staff.  I know animations always make things more fun.

[Eyeball]

A few random thoughts on how things are different:

1. Templars feel like they've been neutered these days. I remember how a templar could walk into Flint's Tavern back in the day and you'd feel a rush of adrenaline, they were so dangerous. They'd openly shake you down for coin or kill you on a whim. But it wasn't all one-sided. People hated them and plotted against them. They often died to assassins (not the guild, to whoever was strong enough to take revenge). Now they often walk about without even bothering to call a guard or two, things are so sedate.

2. The crafting subguilds made people a lot more independent. Some of them allowed vast sums of money to be made quickly at no risk. That's been reduced but not totally fixed. In response, maybe as a sort of defense against constant player demands, avenues for spending coins have been closed off. No homes, no carts, no anything special. The result is that characters often don't need clan pay, they don't need a noble's reward, they don't need bribes, and so on.

3. For few shining years IG, literacy was available to all (no read or write skills, you could just do it). That certainly motivated my character at the time. Now a whole portion of the game is just locked off to sponsored characters.

4. Introduction of so many clan compounds and apartments. Used to be the taverns were full of people which made for a more lively atmosphere. Now they're all compartmentalized. Even within taverns, they're compartmentalized by the 'talk' command.

[wizturbo]

Ath,

For what it's worth, anything that can be done to make RPT's easier to schedule will greatly increase my personal interest in running them more often.

The administrative burden of coordinating play times with multiple clans and staff without a forum or something is just too great for me.  I've tried it, and it's just awful.  It's like calling up every person you want to invite to your party, hoping to catch them on their home phone line which is spotty at best, and then having to reschedule your party when one or two of them can't make it, leading to a whole new round of calls to try and coordinate again....I just won't do it anymore.

If I could post something like this, I would run more RPTs:

Combat RPT for the Byn, House Rennik, House Valika, and the two Nenyuki bankers.

-Clan membership, please use the voting buttons above to indicate which times you can make.
-Clan leadership, please use the leader attendance voting buttons above to indicate which times you can make.  Need 3 out of 4 clan leaders to make this a go.


Sure, it spreads a bit of IC information out there for the player base at large...but who cares!?  OOC Coordination > Keeping a lid on rather minor IC info

[wizturbo]

A few random thoughts on how things are different:

1. Templars feel like they've been neutered these days. I remember how a templar could walk into Flint's Tavern back in the day and you'd feel a rush of adrenaline, they were so dangerous. They'd openly shake you down for coin or kill you on a whim. But it wasn't all one-sided. People hated them and plotted against them. They often died to assassins (not the guild, to whoever was strong enough to take revenge). Now they often walk about without even bothering to call a guard or two, things are so sedate.

I'll admit, my fondest memories in Armageddon were when Kishime Fale the Blue would walk into the Bard's Barrel and I felt a palpable tension...because he was scary.  I loved Kishime Fale, and part of me wishes I could play such a ruthless, scary monster like him...  I just can't do it.  He created a ton of conflict and fear, but I think he also created a lot of hard feelings OOCly, and drove people away from the game, if not Allanak (not me though, I loved him...).

Man, he would sit a halfbreed girl on his lap in the Bard's Barrel (he had a thing for halfbreeds) and no one would say a fucking word about it, even the nobility wouldn't say anything to his face about it, because he was SCARY.  He'd kill you.  He really, really would.  *fond sigh*

Memories....http://armageddon.org/original/search/kishime

[Refugee]

A scary Fale?!

[Taijan]

A scary Fale?!

Fale's colors are green and purple. You know who else's colors are green and purple?

[Refugee]

A scary Fale?!

Fale's colors are green and purple. You know who else's colors are green and purple?

Yikes.

Can't argue with that!

[wizturbo]

Reminded me a lot of Archibald Cunningham from Rob Roy.

[Ath]

A few random thoughts on how things are different:

1. Templars feel like they've been neutered these days. I remember how a templar could walk into Flint's Tavern back in the day and you'd feel a rush of adrenaline, they were so dangerous. They'd openly shake you down for coin or kill you on a whim. But it wasn't all one-sided. People hated them and plotted against them. They often died to assassins (not the guild, to whoever was strong enough to take revenge). Now they often walk about without even bothering to call a guard or two, things are so sedate.

2. The crafting subguilds made people a lot more independent. Some of them allowed vast sums of money to be made quickly at no risk. That's been reduced but not totally fixed. In response, maybe as a sort of defense against constant player demands, avenues for spending coins have been closed off. No homes, no carts, no anything special. The result is that characters often don't need clan pay, they don't need a noble's reward, they don't need bribes, and so on.

3. For few shining years IG, literacy was available to all (no read or write skills, you could just do it). That certainly motivated my character at the time. Now a whole portion of the game is just locked off to sponsored characters.

4. Introduction of so many clan compounds and apartments. Used to be the taverns were full of people which made for a more lively atmosphere. Now they're all compartmentalized. Even within taverns, they're compartmentalized by the 'talk' command.

1 - Then app up a Templar that is ruthless, cunning, dangerous, scary... before I came back on staff, I did just that.  It may not have been approved, but I believe in harsh and deadly.  Now I may not just kill someone randomly, but I'd kill them if I had purpose.  Now maybe I would torture them, fine them, or just use the person then banish them from the city.  I do think Templars can be a bit more harsh in the current world.  I remember when I first came to play, I feared Templars AND Nobles.  I remember a certain Female Tor Noble that would walk into the Gaj and stabbed someones hand to the top of the bar.  She was not someone to mess with.

2 - Crafting is very widespread now, but I think it is working fine now.  Always willing to take feedback and suggestions.

3 - I can agree and disagree here.  We have opened up the option of literacy to Special Apps though, that could make it more available to commoners.  The other issue is writing can be a tad buggy. :-/

4 - I have to agree a bit on this one, there are a lot of -other- places to go, but I still see people congregate at bars when they -want- to meet up with others.  The issue is the low pop bars in low pop areas.  Those places can be a bit dead for longer periods.  Those are places where I suggest people create simple social RPTs.

Ath,

Stuff here.

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.

[Mordiggian]

There are significant code issues we need to resolve before we can discuss expanding the availability of literacy. I'm not a coder and I don't understand the specifics, but literacy code is one of the primary culprits when it comes to game crashes.

[seidhr]

There's nothing stopping people from making big scary templars who will shakedown and murder people right now.  Most recent templars have just chosen to not be like that.  That is totally on the players and has nothing to do with staff direction to act the contrary.

[nauta]

Hi,

I'm a newish player.

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone, but I want to follow up on some points that In Dreams and Desertman made about how people perceive the staff at Armageddon MUD.  It's a pretty simple point: recently, I was cruising mudconnect and Optional Realities and came across Asandras's post.  Apparently, he had some fight with staff about something IC sensitive, and some nasty things were said in both directions, mostly, as far as I can figure, from him.  (I don't really like his writing style, so I didn't read a lot of it.)  Regardless of the case, what was shocking to me was to see the replies that staff (Nyr and Nessalin in particular) had written to him when they banned him.  I don't know if it is appropriate to post it here, but to summarize: the language of the ban letter was terribly unprofessional -- there was a kind of glee to it, and I, at least, was really disheartened to read it.

What's the point?  Regardless of whether or not Asandras should have been banned, this sort of stuff really -does- feed into the perception that staff at Armageddon are, and no offence, terribly mean and unprofessional people.  

As a matter of strategy, I would probably suggest that when staff bans someone, the language be professional to the extreme, because, you know, when someone gets banned, they are going to get upset, and they are going to broadcast that to the internets.  A simple form letter will suffice -- there's really no need to add a poem to it, or to name call, or anything else like that.

Seriously, there are so few people banned, it's just not worth the bad perception that such language brings with it.  When people perceive staff as terrible people (again, no offence to the lovely staff here, I've had wonderful staff interactions), then they lose a lot of motivation to want to play or join in the first place.

Maybe this doesn't happen so often and isn't worth it, but something to think about.

[Erythil]

There's nothing stopping people from making big scary templars who will shakedown and murder people right now.  Most recent templars have just chosen to not be like that.  That is totally on the players and has nothing to do with staff direction to act the contrary.

If people don't like the current templars, they could always murder templars until they got one in line with their preferences.

Someone said they didn't like templars not calling guards when they walk around.  Maybe it's an opportunity for you to take their silver!

[Taijan]

2 - Characters not needing clan pay/bribes/etc.
I wanted to chime in a little here, because I like numbers and crafting-related things. It's easy to point at crafting and say that it allows people to make a lot of money too easily, but that same finger can be pointed in many directions in the game.  The one common factor in any system that allows someone to make a lot of money is that someone needs to be willing to dedicate a lot of time performing the same series of actions over and over.  That can be crafting, foraging, hunting - really any action that lets someone exchange items for coins can be exploited if they devote enough time and effort.

However, the same means that some people use to get rich are the same ones used by people that are really just trying to get by.  They perform x action just enough to achieve their character's immediate goals. Maybe they're a casual player, or have limited time to play and would rather interact with others than have their characters get very wealthy.

Changing things to make it harder for the person in the first example to get rich runs the risk of making things even more difficult for the person in the second.  Personally, I don't think that risk is worth it.

So for people who don't need clan pay, a noble's reward, or other things of that nature - which category do you fall into?

[wizturbo]

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.

Yes!

Or something as simple as a "clan leader" forum where all clan leadership has access and can OOCly communicate if they choose to.  Would require less coding.

[Ath]

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.

Yes!

Or something as simple as a "clan leader" forum where all clan leadership has access and can OOCly communicate if they choose to.  Would require less coding.

Yes, that is true, and actually doesn't require that much work.  Can be done with clan requests and would mainly only apply to sponsored roles.

EDIT:  The only issue I can think of with this is cross clan information or groups knowing that something is going down outside of those involved.  Though those within Sponsored Roles should be trusted to not utilize OOC information, it would just be a trust thing.

[Erythil]

I agree but I can't make a call on that.  Coordination between clans for RPTs is difficult and I do agree we need to come up with something to help with this.  This isn't official, but what if we allowed OOC Communication between Sponsored Roles/Leaders?  Do you think that would help at all?  This would require coding, but what about have a RPT Coordination Request where staff can add Sponsored Role Players to the Request to arrange RPT times, and it can still be monitored by staff, even if they don't have to be at the RPT?  Once again, another idea... not even sure if it would be possible.

Yes!

Or something as simple as a "clan leader" forum where all clan leadership has access and can OOCly communicate if they choose to.  Would require less coding.

Yes, that is true, and actually doesn't require that much work.  Can be done with clan requests and would mainly only apply to sponsored roles.

EDIT:  The only issue I can think of with this is cross clan information or groups knowing that something is going down outside of those involved.  Though those within Sponsored Roles should be trusted to not utilize OOC information, it would just be a trust thing.

I think the benefits outweigh the risks here, as many times I've wanted to RPTs and have the date drag on for weeks while I wait for serendipitous playtime matching with other leaders, plus the approval for necessary admin oversight.  Not that I'm upset about it, it's just an inevitable consequence of the current system.

[wizturbo]

I agree with Erythil, benefits outweigh the risks.  

And sponsored roles/leaders can always make forum throwaway accounts if they'd rather keep their identity secret, so no real concerns on that front.

I'd just limit the discussion on that forum to strictly scheduling, nothing else.

[Ath]

Which people already do with the throw away or different than there normal account.  I like this idea, I'll bring it up.  No promises it will go anywhere, but it's the least I can do to bring up the idea.

[ibusoe]

This is the whole point of the Player Clan System.  I will admit not every concept works great with it, but you could work towards something like a brewery.  The problem with this particular one is the difficulty of making new liquids in the game, right now there is no easy way to do it and requires a coder to do it.  So the MC system might not be the best thing for this.  It's rough, I love the concept, I could see it happening in game, but we're limited in execution a bit.  The concept of a Minor Merchant House is that they are have a single specialty of some sort that they base their existence off of.  Working to that goal is not supposed to be easy or quick.  Making a mark on the world shouldn't be easy or quick.

If you have some ideas that you want to try in game, I ask you to drop me a line via the request tool.  I'd be happy to discuss them with you so we don't have to worry about crossing into IC areas.  Put is in as Clan Related (Unclanned) Question/Request.  Reasonable requests will be answered, if you give me some far out ones, I'll just respond and close.  I'm trying to be serious here, if you have questions or ideas you want to try, ask.

I disagree.  I think the Player Clan System, at least the aspect of it that you're referring to, are so that you can play the Captain of the House Guard, Senior Aide to one of the truly powerful people, or Director of Cover Operations (Read: Top Assassin) for House Kurac.  Traditionally you're supposed to rise through the ranks (read: jump into the funnel) in order to get those positions, and I've nothing negative to say about this process.  Presumably, people can special app directly into those positions if they're feeling impatient, although I for one have always (and I mean always, without exception) been content to attempt to rise through the ranks.

What I was alluding to was completely different.  

What I think you should be able to do, without a special app, is to create in your background (or through a modest amount of effort and role-play) that you're the son of a brewer, or whatever.  
Step 2 - profit!

If the app is approved, then suddenly you're a brewer.  There shouldn't need to be a ton of background effort needed to support or implement (on either the player's side or the staffs) this kind of a role.  

When staff alludes to the MMH process, that's cool for people who want to build an upper-middle class establishment that will outlive their character, may outlive the player .  What I'm proposing is that there be a streamlined process for people who want to play lower-middle class characters, which if you think about it describes pretty much all PCs that aren't flat-out wealthy.  

Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

What would a raider need to get started?  A safe place to camp.

What would an arrow-smith need to get started?  Five quivers full of custom arrows.

What would an indie-merchant need to get started?  Maybe a single NPC willing to place a single public, high-profile order

Really easy stuff for the most part.  

Now I understand that you're one of the more responsive staffers, one of the friendlier people in an already friendly crowd, but your suggestion was a bit wanting, and I think it's just because the (admittedly awesome) ticketing system, combined with the Funnel, kind of distracts you guys into procedural thinking.  

Let's say you felt like the brew code limitations were preventing you from being as helpful as you would like to be?  It's cool.  Were it my decision to make for a player that I really trusted, I'd float them ten kegs of custom ale per month, plus storage space.  For someone I trusted quite a bit, I'd float them eight kegs of custom ale per month.  For someone I didn't know that well, I'd float them six kegs of custom ale (one time gift) and after that they'd be on there own.

I could accomplish quite a lot with something like that, even a tiny boost would help me to make my mark on the world.  

Perhaps rather than focus on what the staff can't do, maybe focus on what you can do?  Even throwing me a bone would be far more encouraging.  Why should Morgenes update the brewing code if you and I aren't even making the best of what little we have available?

Please don't think I'm singling you out - you clearly want to help the players so in my mind you're one of the good guys.  

[Ath]

If I have to guess, you've played on SoI before, as what you are talking about sounds a bit like what they have with their character creation system, or at least what it did when I used to be staff there.

Basically giving players a bit more than just a few coins, they app for a role, and that role could be a farmer, said farmer may start with farmland or whatever.

See, that is where the difference of Armageddon comes in.  I'm trying to think of a good way to explain it, but I will try.  In Armageddon, you are no one special... you are not an adventurer, you are not a hero, you are not someone that typically matters at all... when you start your character.  Now that doesn't mean you can't make your mark, it just means that you just have to work your way up.  Where as SoI for example, you can app a character if you have the Character Creation Points, that is an owner of a farm or a Sergeant in the military, or something along those lines.  That is one major difference.  SoI your character can start out as something of a big name, in essence that is kinda the same as our Sponsored Roles.  A Nobles hate quite a lot going for it right off from the beginning, as does a Sergeant in the Byn.

I guess what I'm saying is I understand where you are coming from with being able to make a character that has a bit more than others, but you have to look at the potential for work involved with that.  We don't try to limit work because we don't want to support players, we want to limit it so we can focus on things that matter to more than one or two players, but the game as a whole.  A lot of the projects we are working on behind the scenes wouldn't happen if we had to focus on the few, rather than the many.

[ibusoe]

If I have to guess, you've played on SoI before, as what you are talking about sounds a bit like what they have with their character creation system, or at least what it did when I used to be staff there.

Basically giving players a bit more than just a few coins, they app for a role, and that role could be a farmer, said farmer may start with farmland or whatever.

See, that is where the difference of Armageddon comes in.  I'm trying to think of a good way to explain it, but I will try.  In Armageddon, you are no one special... you are not an adventurer, you are not a hero, you are not someone that typically matters at all... when you start your character.  Now that doesn't mean you can't make your mark, it just means that you just have to work your way up.  Where as SoI for example, you can app a character if you have the Character Creation Points, that is an owner of a farm or a Sergeant in the military, or something along those lines.  That is one major difference.  SoI your character can start out as something of a big name, in essence that is kinda the same as our Sponsored Roles.  A Nobles hate quite a lot going for it right off from the beginning, as does a Sergeant in the Byn.

I guess what I'm saying is I understand where you are coming from with being able to make a character that has a bit more than others, but you have to look at the potential for work involved with that.  We don't try to limit work because we don't want to support players, we want to limit it so we can focus on things that matter to more than one or two players, but the game as a whole.  A lot of the projects we are working on behind the scenes wouldn't happen if we had to focus on the few, rather than the many.

Thank you for being that specific.  I can agree that those are very good points.  I don't fully agree with you philosophically here, but it's nice to be heard out in full, and I can agree that what you're saying here is a rational basis for things being the way that they are currently.

[Old Kank]

Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

I feel like this is worth repeating, because it's something I feel has changed a lot.  I don't really know why, and I don't have any particular insight, but it might be worth discussing.

I feel like the only viable roles left in the game are: soldier, hunter, grebber, crafter, and aide.  In my mind, a lot of supported roles have dropped off that list because they're just not that viable: thief, assassin, spy, salesman, raider, tribal, mage, elf, dwarf, mul, sorcerer, psionicist.

[Lizzie]

Your choices are effectively to play a hunter or a mercenary or a craftsman or an aide or nothing.  A slight diversity in roles would not only be 100% more fun, but probably would contribute substantially to game atmosphere.  

I feel like this is worth repeating, because it's something I feel has changed a lot.  I don't really know why, and I don't have any particular insight, but it might be worth discussing.

I feel like the only viable roles left in the game are: soldier, hunter, grebber, crafter, and aide.  In my mind, a lot of supported roles have dropped off that list because they're just not that viable: thief, assassin, spy, salesman, raider, tribal, mage, elf, dwarf, mul, sorcerer, psionicist.

It sounds like you might be playing in a different part of the game world where those things don't exist. I don't know where that might be but it's definitely not where I've played in the last year, all the way up to this morning (which was the last time I logged into the game).

First - dwarf, mul, elf, mage, sorcerer, psionicist, tribal: all coded things involving race and guild/subguilt. None of these things are roles. Psionicists can be soldiers, hunters, grebbers, crafters, and aides. They can also be thieves, spies, assassins, and salesmen. Dwarves, sorcs, elves, and tribals can too. Muls are really the only ones on that list that have a fairly limited choice of roles; they must all play escaped slaves. That is their role. But as escaped slaves, they can also be thieves, assassins, spies, raiders, salesmen.

Thieves, assassins, spies, salesmen, are all viable roles; I've played them recently and know several currently-living characters playing in all of those roles. None of them have dropped off the list. They're all perfectly viable.

[Mordiggian]

Yeah uh... I'm confused by your post, Old Kank. Nevermind the fact that several of the things you list (like dwarf) are not roles in and of themselves... why are they somehow less viable now?