A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times

[BadSkeelz]

Your description of "the good ol' staffing days" sounds pretty much like what we have now, Armaddict. I've never gotten the impression that staff aren't "Gung-ho" about helping any particular clan I've been in. It's true that you don't see staff treating their clans as personal fiefdoms, which in my opinion is a good thing. There is such a thing as too much staff attention and documentation - we saw it in the Gypsies, and I personally believe this is what made Tuluk so doc-heavy and cumbersome to play in and, ultimately, unworkable.

[Armaddict]

Your description of "the good ol' staffing days" sounds pretty much like what we have now, Armaddict. I've never gotten the impression that staff aren't "Gung-ho" about helping any particular clan I've been in. It's true that you don't see staff treating their clans as personal fiefdoms, which in my opinion is a good thing. There is such a thing as too much staff attention and documentation - we saw it in the Gypsies, and I personally believe this is what made Tuluk so doc-heavy and cumbersome to play in and, ultimately, unworkable.

I didn't mean for it to come across as a 'good old days' sort of post.  I really just meant that it seems like teams might be juggling between multiple clans, which can leave 'small scale' plots petering out, rather than being fostered...because one in one clan, and not in with the competitive clan, might have an interest in helping that conflict to grow.

I didn't mean to insinuate that our guys were not gung-ho because they weren't in teams...just that their interests had to be more spread out and on an even keel to prevent favoritism to one clan or another.  Where that favoritism, to a clan, and not a player, but with a trusted person who is in coordination with other staffers...is sometimes what enables those little plots to grow well.  Kind of incentive based thinking, I guess, where they of course want their clan, and people in their clan, to do well...and then rotate around what clans are whose?

It wasn't viable when there tons of clans, which is why the change happened.  But...we've closed down a bunch of clans.  Having each of them competitive with each other in very visible ways to members of that clan is a good thing, I think.

[Nyr]

I get what you mean.  It's one thing to know X person is in charge of Y, and them alone...and that influences the direction of that Y Clan.

If it helps at all, there is usually one ST assigned to a clan as the person to respond to issues there.  Even when we have the meta-clan groups headed by administrators, you still have one specific ST that will be the go-to-animator and header-upper of the clan.

I tend to think it is the same, or if not the same, a lot better...because clans could get abandoned before.

[Ath]

I personally also find it nice because animations come from one person so the animations don't change and ruin immersion.  I know it can be rough to RP an NPC the same way as someone else and it is hard to see how someone RPed someone before.

[Bast]

I just hate staff changes. I am always worried new staff means everything I have been trying to do will suddenly get shut down because the new staffer has a different view or take on my clan. I wish we had better docs like down the board for everything to keep everyone more on the same page. Maybe I am spoiled from table top games but in most of them they have very clear in depth documentation about popular areas and the organizations in them. You can buy entire book devoted to some the major cities in D&D, pathfinger and other games. I feel too much in Arm is left to personal feelings or ideas.

As for the days or yore I do miss some things but I like a lot of  the changes too. Its much more fair over all. You don't see one clan getting massively cool stuff and items any more which is a really good thing. Karma has guidelines which awesome.  I would like to see magick plots come back. I feel its a bit lame that if you earn the karma to play some of the cooler classes in the game you get doomed to a life of being left out of major plots and events and isolated from the rest of the player base with nothing to do unless you get lucky with Staff or have a good Oash Noble in the game. Arm has a massively cool magic system it feels wasted lately. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving  parts of the old game or that anything that happened 6 years ago is suddenly invalid because things were different then.

[Jihelu]

I just hate staff changes. I am always worried new staff means everything I have been trying to do will suddenly get shut down because the new staffer has a different view or take on my clan. I wish we had better docs like down the board for everything to keep everyone more on the same page. Maybe I am spoiled from table top games but in most of them they have very clear in depth documentation about popular areas and the organizations in them. You can buy entire book devoted to some the major cities in D&D, pathfinger and other games. I feel too much in Arm is left to personal feelings or ideas.

As for the days or yore I do miss some things but I like a lot of  the changes too. Its much more fair over all. You don't see one clan getting massively cool stuff and items any more which is a really good thing. Karma has guidelines which awesome.  I would like to see magick plots come back. I feel its a bit lame that if you earn the karma to play some of the cooler classes in the game you get doomed to a life of being left out of major plots and events and isolated from the rest of the player base with nothing to do unless you get lucky with Staff or have a good Oash Noble in the game. Arm has a massively cool magic system it feels wasted lately. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving  parts of the old game or that anything that happened 6 years ago is suddenly invalid because things were different then.

I've got the solution.
We bring back Sorcerers.

[AdamBlue]

I just hate staff changes. I am always worried new staff means everything I have been trying to do will suddenly get shut down because the new staffer has a different view or take on my clan. I wish we had better docs like down the board for everything to keep everyone more on the same page. Maybe I am spoiled from table top games but in most of them they have very clear in depth documentation about popular areas and the organizations in them. You can buy entire book devoted to some the major cities in D&D, pathfinger and other games. I feel too much in Arm is left to personal feelings or ideas.

As for the days or yore I do miss some things but I like a lot of  the changes too. Its much more fair over all. You don't see one clan getting massively cool stuff and items any more which is a really good thing. Karma has guidelines which awesome.  I would like to see magick plots come back. I feel its a bit lame that if you earn the karma to play some of the cooler classes in the game you get doomed to a life of being left out of major plots and events and isolated from the rest of the player base with nothing to do unless you get lucky with Staff or have a good Oash Noble in the game. Arm has a massively cool magic system it feels wasted lately. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving  parts of the old game or that anything that happened 6 years ago is suddenly invalid because things were different then.

I've got the solution.
We bring back Sorcerers.

Well, a small-scale apocalypse would certainly make things more interesting.

[Jihelu]

Just like old times.

[Mordiggian]

Adhira/Nessalin/Seidhr have been working on some changes to the sorc subguilds to give them some more bite. If you've played one, and are concerned about their potency, fret not.

[Ath]

Adhira/Nessalin/Seidhr have been working on some changes to the sorc subguilds to give them some more bite. If you've played one, and are concerned about their potency, fret not.

Send in feedback!  Nothing wrong with feedback on it.

Also, as for small scale, I say we blow up Tuluk...  again.  Tuluki refugees everywhere!

[Desertman]

Adhira/Nessalin/Seidhr have been working on some changes to the sorc subguilds to give them some more bite. If you've played one, and are concerned about their potency, fret not.

Send in feedback!  Nothing wrong with feedback on it.

Also, as for small scale, I say we blow up Tuluk...  again. PIECES OF Tuluki refugees everywhere!

*Evil Cackle*

[Mordiggian]

It's also come to my attention that some people somewhere are mad at me for something.

If you play in an area I staff and you feel like you have an issue I mishandled, or you're unhappy with something I've done, but you just keep quiet and let that resentment build up, I can't do anything for you. I can't speak for other staffers, but I'm working on a lot of projects in a lot of different parts of the gameworld, and I don't want any of the players in my groups to feel like they're not being heard or noticed.

I promise you I'm a nice dude and if you hit me up with a request when you have issues or concerns (or just to report, or discuss support for things) I will try to reach a mutually agreeable position.

[In Dreams]

It's also come to my attention that some people somewhere are mad at me for something.

If you play in an area I staff and you feel like you have an issue I mishandled, or you're unhappy with something I've done, but you just keep quiet and let that resentment build up, I can't do anything for you. I can't speak for other staffers, but I'm working on a lot of projects in a lot of different parts of the gameworld, and I don't want any of the players in my groups to feel like they're not being heard or noticed.

I promise you I'm a nice dude and if you hit me up with a request when you have issues or concerns (or just to report, or discuss support for things) I will try to reach a mutually agreeable position.

Hearsay I got before I ever arrived here painted Armageddon's staff as looming ominous overlords not unlike Tektolnes where if you have a disagreement with them, you're probably better off just running away and being quiet and hoping they don't notice you.

I know this can't be entirely true because everyone always talks in extremes, especially the most vocal sorts. But, I will admit that I myself have kind of habitually avoided staff and staffing interactions myself, just because I don't want my experience affected by anything outside of my roleplay.

I haven't had any bad experiences myself at all, of course! And maybe that says something? I don't know, but that could be why people are scared to bring that sort of thing up.

[Armaddict]

I watch some people because I think some people circle jerk their own exaggerated butt hurt to new heights until the sense of injustice rallies them to anger instead of tears over relatively small events. It makes me laugh. Not professional, not staff. Woo woo!

[Malken]

I watch some people because I think some people circle jerk their own exaggerated butt hurt to new heights until the sense of injustice rallies them to anger instead of tears over relatively small events. It makes me laugh. Not professional, not staff. Woo woo!

Yeah but the opposite of circle jerking is blind cheerleading and it's annoying both ways.

I'm glad that my thread is bringing some positive thoughts, though

I logged in for 2 seconds earlier today.

THEN I'M REMINDED THAT THE AGING SYSTEM IS STILL PURE BULLSHIT PIECE OF... Just kidding ^_^

[Desertman]

If you want to see Desertman eat some of his words, here is your chance people!!!

Just dropping in to say that Nyr shot me some info privately that made me feel a lot better about the returning players issue I was seeing.

Since I complained about it publically I thought it was only fair to say publically that we actually do get back a fair number of people at times that once moved on to "hate us land".

Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

I will be the first to say I haven't always got along with Mister Nyr and we may never be best buddies, but I will also be the first to admit when I'm wrong.

The things he explained to me make me really do feel like the door is truly open to anyone who just wants to throw out a request to come back.

So if you are out there in "angry jaded land" and are thinking you might want to come back...shoot a request to staff and just say you want to come back...you don't have to grovel or beg. Just say you want to come back and you don't want to relive your past mistakes or have them lorded over you. If you do come back and don't make your same past mistakes they will let your old account notes not ride your ass.

#Desertmanstampofapproval

[Mordiggian]

My approach to interacting with any player is a clean-slate based on my experience with them. Players who might be coming off a PC in another clan where they had friction with their staff for any number of reasons might play in one of my clans next and I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

[ibusoe]

If you want to see Desertman eat some of his words, here is your chance people!!!

Just dropping in to say that Nyr shot me some info privately that made me feel a lot better about the returning players issue I was seeing.

Since I complained about it publically I thought it was only fair to say publically that we actually do get back a fair number of people at times that once moved on to "hate us land".

Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

I will be the first to say I haven't always got along with Mister Nyr and we may never be best buddies, but I will also be the first to admit when I'm wrong.

The things he explained to me make me really do feel like the door is truly open to anyone who just wants to throw out a request to come back.

So if you are out there in "angry jaded land" and are thinking you might want to come back...shoot a request to staff and just say you want to come back...you don't have to grovel or beg. Just say you want to come back and you don't want to relive your past mistakes or have them lorded over you. If you do come back and don't make your same past mistakes they will let your old account notes not ride your ass.

#Desertmanstampofapproval

Yeah, I don't think anyone currently playing hates the staff.  Certainly there must be someone, but they aren't visible to me.  It's nice to see the staff overcompensating, especially, Ath, Mordiggian and Nyr, but we don't hate you.  Our various gripes relate mostly to minor issues that you're actively working with us on.  Showing us measurable progress, transparency, willingness to compromise and general amnesty has gone a long way to mollify people's angst.  

[Jihelu]

I was joking about Sorcerers btw!
I personally think they were okay/the nerf thing was cool.
The looming idea of "I want every spell in the game" can seem appealing though but thats kinda dumb.


When I interact with staff I feel scared but safe at the same time. They are immortals after all...Irl right? Nyr isn't going to die right???!?!?!

[Nyr]

Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

There might have been some confusion there on specifics.  There were two people that we said "no" to at the time of the last announced ban amnesty thing.  

There are three people that we would say no to at this point in time.

There are very few people we'd say "no" to, by the way.  Those exceptions:

• We banned you in the past few weeks/months.  Whatever you did, you just did it.  You probably haven't changed, and our opinion of whatever you did hasn't changed, nor has enough time passed for us to feel okay giving you another chance.  Sorry.
• You were banned for stalking/harassing other players or staff.  Uncool.

That's it.  Looking at the above and double checking that with Adhira, that's 3 players.  So the offer's there, still open, whether it is believed to be genuine or not.

[Desertman]

Also, he explained to me that the door is absolutely open to pretty much everyone but two individuals who got banned because of the severity of their heinous actions. (I honestly expected that category to hold more than two people.)

There might have been some confusion there on specifics.  There were two people that we said "no" to at the time of the last announced ban amnesty thing.  

There are three people that we would say no to at this point in time.

There are very few people we'd say "no" to, by the way.  Those exceptions:

• We banned you in the past few weeks/months.  Whatever you did, you just did it.  You probably haven't changed, and our opinion of whatever you did hasn't changed, nor has enough time passed for us to feel okay giving you another chance.  Sorry.
• You were banned for stalking/harassing other players or staff.  Uncool.

That's it.  Looking at the above and double checking that with Adhira, that's 3 players.  So the offer's there, still open, whether it is believed to be genuine or not.

Fair enough. I still expected it to be much more than two or three. 

[wizturbo]

(This thread had like 15 posts since I started writing mine, so I wanted to edit it to say its in response to Armaddict's post that eluded to PC driven plots being difficult to get approved, or have to be in a set, track-like structure)

I'd like to share my experiences as a returning player over the last year and a half or so.  This post will contain a few smidgens of IC information, but I think I'm walking on the right side the line here...  Hopefully...  *ducks*  

My reason for sharing this is pretty simple, the perception that player driven plots have to be "in a set, track-like structure" is not at all what I've experienced.  Universally, every time I've really pursued a plot it's been approved to proceed.  The outcome of that plot is not certain, and, sometimes goes horribly, horribly wrong...but the plot happens.   I suppose it's possible that my plots all somehow fit within the "set, track-like structure" that staff use as a template for approving them, but I somehow doubt that.  I've never met any staff member in real life, nor do I speak with any of them outside the request tool, so I really have no reason to believe they're giving me some kind of special treatment...of course that'd be impossible for me to know as I don't have anyone else's experiences to benchmark against.

So with that said, maybe my experiences below are a good case study?  I don't know.

Background:

I returned to Armageddon about a year ago, after 3-4 years away.  I had an itch to roleplay again, and decided to jump back into my old (literally, at this point) character.  My character had no friends and was unclanned.   Anyway, I joined a clan to try and get into the thick of plot lines.  Sadly, I felt like the plot lines were kind of thin at the time, so it didn't take long before I started dreaming up things to do.  Below is a chronological account of all the requests where I was asking the staff to approve a plot or role.  These all fall into around the same 5-6 month time period.

First staff request-  I had a scheme of trying to kidnap Tulukis who left the safety of their city through magickal means, to be thrown into the arena for humiliation/sport/entertainment in Allanak.  
Verdict:  Approved.  My character chose not to do this for IC reasons, unrelated to staff.


Second request - A special application to play a character that [Mordiggian strikes again].  I'm not saying more than that, because I've yet to actually play the app yet!
Verdict:  Approved.  Will require some minor coded tweaks to my character to function.


Third request - Requested a plot line to gain powerful, non-standard magickal abilities on top of a class that already has plenty of them.  I won't go into detail on this one, because it's ICly sensitive in nature.  
Verdict:  Shockingly....approved, but I was told up front it wouldn't be an overnight thing.  There were some staff-assisted animations of otherworldly entities to begin this plot line.  The pursuit of this plot went for a quite a while, and I never reached it's conclusion due to character death or storage.


Fourth request (still the same character) - Because request #3 was taking a while, I asked for an intermediary step towards my character's pursuit of otherworldly powers.
Verdict: Approved.  Plotline completed after a staff supported "quest" that involved my PC, and other PC's i dragged into it.  I did obtain the thing I was looking for... but be careful what you wish for kids...  


Fifth request- I planned an RPT for the clan to visit a remote location, and wanted staff support for it.
Verdict:  Approved.  Staff supported the RPT, spooky things happened there.  Those spooky things are still happening there today as far as I know.  The zone has been altered, perhaps permanently...we'll see?


Sixth request - A project in Allanak, that would create a new building, and a new type of coded service provided by one of the noble houses.
Verdict:  Approved, but hinted at a warning that this could have some unexpected consequences.  I was in the process of pursuing this, but it got cut short due to character death or storage.

Interestingly enough, when I originally submitted this request I cancelled it a few hours later, because I thought there was no way  this would actually happen.  Staff responded to the cancelled request, and said:

"Normally I wouldn't reply to a cancelled request but I actually thought this one was interesting when it popped up in the queue. I can't say whether or not we'd definitely do it, without a bunch of discussion staff-side, but on first glance I thought it was worth looking at. If you want to resubmit it, I'd encourage you to do so. Nothing wrong with having the discussion "

I resubmitted based on this advice and it was approved.  I mean, shit, I wasn't even able to CANCEL an idea without staff giving me a nudge telling me to go for it.

Other requests  There have been numerous other requests since this one, but they're for an existing PC, so I'm not willing to post about them because that would definitely be crossing the line into bad country.  

[Desertman]

^^^^^

That's.....awesome....

[Mordiggian]

Removed a reference to a future PC from your post, Wizturbo. Don't want folks to know who you're playing if that PC materializes in-game.

[Rokal]

^^^^^

That's.....awesome....