Feck the Police - is Crimcode worth it?

[BadSkeelz]

The odd thing about being an AoD PC is that Staff very explicitly tell you that you are not a police officer, that investigating, interrogating, and punishing crime without direct Templar oversight is a big no-no. That you're soldiers, whatever that means. The rules are a bit relaxed for officers, but even then you're not supposed to drag people into the cells of your own accord.

Fortunately, considering suspected criminals as volunteers for the "How many hits does it take me to kill someone?" game is not against clan policy.

This is what I was getting at with my original #4 bulletin - all Soldier (N)PCs are allowed to do is subdue wanted, incriminated criminals and drag them to the Cells for interrogation and punishment by a Templar (N)PC. Since soldier PCs cannot know that you lifted a coin purse 20 minutes ago from some schmuck across the city, nor automatically subdue wanted incriminated criminals as soon as you share a room (much less recognize them through the new cloak and mask they're now wearing), the NPC guards do their job 'better.'

So I like the idea of soldier PCs getting alerts if Sdesc has assaulted someone. They already do if you do certain grave magickal crimes within the City, though the alert message is so abrupt, metagamey, undocumented and poorly worded that it usually just produces confusion. But I think the larger role of soldier-PCs in the game itself needs examination and possible reworking. Which is apparently happening.

[Revenant]

Half-giant soldier PCs should be around expressly for the purpose of subduing or fighting other half-giants. It feels a bit awkward to see a gang of six standing around, and somehow not falling into some half-giant cycle of absurd, devolving mimicry.

[wizturbo]

It feels a bit awkward to see a gang of six standing around, and somehow not falling into some half-giant cycle of absurd, devolving mimicry.

Having a bunch of half-giant soldiers instead of human ones is a bit jarring, I agree.  They shouldn't be as prevalent in comparison to the human population of soldiers that you see in most areas of the game.

[Revenant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzDgaGTARqE

[Riev]

All "interrogative" duties are now to be fulfilled by the citizens of the Labyrinth, who are trained now as special investigators. Anyone caught committing a crime of murder or above (ungemmed practice of magick, magick outside the Quarter, touching/stealing from nobility) will carry with it an almost-immediate knife to the back, causing paralysis.

Murder occurs after the ding.

Soldiers are now relegated to keeping the physical peace and, given their propensity for "rough circle yeh?" are now trained to step in and rescue the assaulted. If they aren't able, they are to step in and put a bone sword in the other person's rear end, over and over again until they submit.

[Quell]

they are to step in and put a bone sword in the other person's rear end, over and over again until they submit.

Kinky

[Culinary Critic]

I'm not for removal, but reducing prevalence would be great.

This!  Right here!  THIS THIS THIS!!!!

Alleys?  No crime code.  Dusk?  No crime code in the pretty damn busy streets because people are RUSHING to safety.

Breeds, gicks, sharps?  Soldier grabs hold of anyone assaulting them (without deadly weapons) for an hour or two, shaking occasionally, yelling questions...or until offered a reasonable bribe.

Closer to the noble quarter or their bars/tea rooms?  Maybe a little harsher.  But not instant WANTED for the least offence.

The concept is incredibly flexible.  I expect, being a non-coder, that the code is a lot more difficult to work around.  But it would be soooooo nice.

[Barzalene]

Someone or someones mentioned above the idea of unarmed combat not setting off the crimcode. I love that idea for places in the commoner quarter and in the Gaj. But I wonder if it's really a possibility with the code we have. Is it?

[Hot_Dancer]

I remember playing a brief leadership stint in the Jaxa Pah and got tired of the role because we were struggling to find anything to do other than assassination work. I failed to get any politics/economy going in the 'rinth.

I didn't want that to be my primary interaction with the rest of Allanak (I was OK with it being secondary).

Killing was easy for us too - we could wander off and solo pop anyone in the street day or night and sneak back to the 'rinth without fail. It wasn't even fun.

Allanak really isn't very safe.

Personally - I think PC's are able to reach too much coded power for a non-crime code Allanak where in some other RPI's 2 Veterans beat 1 Expert and 2 Newbies beat 1 Veteran but in Armageddon 1 Expert can beat several Veterans and limitless newbies.

Less HG NPC soldiers should definitely be a thing though.

[Clearsighted]

Personally - I think PC's are able to reach too much coded power for a non-crime code Allanak where in some other RPI's 2 Veterans beat 1 Expert and 2 Newbies beat 1 Veteran but in Armageddon 1 Expert can beat several Veterans and limitless newbies.

I find this more variable than conventional wisdom would dictate.

For one thing, a newbie warrior is virtually always going to stand a puncher's chance putting the hurt on any other class in the city. Heck, a completely newb warrior has a puncher's chance of putting some militia NPCs.

Give him a couple days played in the Byn, a decent stat roll, and a head that isn't completely up his ass, and he can probably butcher most rinthi elf assassins and burglars. If someone is an aide, noble, merchant or unprepared gicker walking around in pretty clothes, then sure, they're meat. Your elf assassin or burglar, with some decent combat training, is going to eat them alive.

I've seen warriors that were great in the sparring circle go out and get butchered by critters that could barely faze a mounted ranger. I've seen great rangers get clocked by newbie warriors.

In my experience, 'experts', 'veterans' and 'newbs' are fairly fluid, with a great many factors determining victory.

There is however, a tier beyond. Some rare, few characters at any given time, are beyond 'expert'. They've lived long enough to develop insanely high offense and defense, and likely combine it with powerful allies, the best gear, and maybe one or two tricky items to give them an edge. It takes a very long time to get there, though. 40-50 days play time is a significant chunk of your real life. Every game in my Steam library from the last 5 years doesn't approach ~1200 hours.

And yet, those characters can still die quite easily. A gicker with a couple days playtime. A lucky arrow, or poison. Falling down a hole. Subdued by a half-giant. A double-hitter from a bahamet popping out of its shell. Critically bashed by a spider and then another comes in. A critical unavoidable 1-20 chance to drop your weapon, even with maxed disarm, when reversing an opponent...not realizing your weapon dropped in the combat spam and getting reeled by a dwarf. They're actually quite fragile.

What resilience they have is well deserved, and frankly, a poor investment on time spent, compared to any gicker class. Unless you're some crazy X-D gicker with off/defense that would shame a warrior, you can probably max one out, without even trying, in a month or two. if you have even rudimentary familiarity with the system.

[absurdist]

Crimcode ruins conflict. It's simple.

[Armaddict]

Crimcode ruins conflict. It's simple.

Truth.  Also a necessary simplicity.  Because it demotes mindless conflict.

The moment the city enters a state where you can walk into a tavern and kill someone because fuck you is the moment cities become meaningless as bastions of civilization in the Known world.

As noted by several others, crimcode -is- very possible to circumvent, to the point that for some people it's even easy.  The complete removal of it because someone doesn't want to take the time to plan things out, and just wants to promote wanton violence as the best way for conflict to be brought about, is very shortsighted and in my opinion, an idea brought about by tunnel-vision.

I am, however, all for the pulling back of half-giant soldiers, so that Arm/Criminal skirmishes are real, so that half-giants not in the Arm are a big deal, and so that PC soldiers have more reasons to actually patrol (because I assume with soldiers less able to kill you, crime will also take a step up).

[absurdist]

As noted by several others, crimcode -is- very possible to circumvent, to the point that for some people it's even easy.  The complete removal of it because someone doesn't want to take the time to plan things out, and just wants to promote wanton violence as the best way for conflict to be brought about, is very shortsighted and in my opinion, an idea brought about by tunnel-vision.

Agree with you on about everything except this.

Yes, it is easy to circumvent. But I for one am tired of conflict being turned into a series of petty assassinations instead of something that could be sustained and nourished, be it through wanton violence or said skirmishes. I'm not talking about magickers running around and fireballing entire taverns. Otherwise, wanton violence is realistic. It's just not convenient in a game where an experienced character two-shots anyone with half their playtime. So to avoid turning this into a debate about the combat code...

I think we can all agree on less (or no) half-giant soldiers. And why in the world is Red Storm so heavily bogged down in guards? At least give the 'wild west' theme a chance.

[FantasyWriter]

Sometimes the crimcode even fecks the police themselves.
/oldwound

[Synthesis]

I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

[Delirium]

I've gotta agree with Synthesis on this one.

[Synthesis]

I've gotta agree with Synthesis on this one.

...like agreeing with me is a CHORE or something.

Oh my god, even a broken clock is right twice a day?  Is that what you're saying?

[jhunter]

About the only thing I can think of I would change about it is to make it so becoming wanted in one part of the city doesn't make you wanted throughout the city. Break it up into "law zones". You become wanted for a crime in the bazaar, then your presence will trigger soldiers in the bazaar rooms and maybe nearby rooms around it until arrested or your crim flag expires. Outside of those rooms, there are so many people and you are primarily being looked for in the area the crime was committed that they don't necessarily spot you or are "looking" for you.
If you have a crim flag in one "law zone" and you earn another one in a separate "law zone", your original flag duration starts over as now more are looking for you. If you have three or more flags from different areas at once, then you are wanted city-wide.

[Clearsighted]

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Well said. The surest way to living a long time in Armageddon, is having others know you are a long-lived PC, or even giving them the impression of it. Then they won't want to mess with you, and will assume that you're fine with a 'live and let live' policy of mutually protecting our investments.

Crimcode is what it is, to some extent. I'd be happy with just some intrepid staffer (Cavaticus, maybe?) going through and deleting a few HG NPCs here and there. I get the feeling like there are 2x-3x as many of them, as when I last played, as if they're multiplying somehow through some code bug...as certain objects or even mounts have been doing, lately.

If NPCs are meant to be a mirror of the VNPC population, then we should have 4 human guards to every HG guard, at a minimum.

[Armaddict]

About the only thing I can think of I would change about it is to make it so becoming wanted in one part of the city doesn't make you wanted throughout the city. Break it up into "law zones". You become wanted for a crime in the bazaar, then your presence will trigger soldiers in the bazaar rooms and maybe nearby rooms around it until arrested or your crim flag expires. Outside of those rooms, there are so many people and you are primarily being looked for in the area the crime was committed that they don't necessarily spot you or are "looking" for you.
If you have a crim flag in one "law zone" and you earn another one in a separate "law zone", your original flag duration starts over as now more are looking for you. If you have three or more flags from different areas at once, then you are wanted city-wide.

GTA crimcode plz.

[Synthesis]

About the only thing I can think of I would change about it is to make it so becoming wanted in one part of the city doesn't make you wanted throughout the city. Break it up into "law zones". You become wanted for a crime in the bazaar, then your presence will trigger soldiers in the bazaar rooms and maybe nearby rooms around it until arrested or your crim flag expires. Outside of those rooms, there are so many people and you are primarily being looked for in the area the crime was committed that they don't necessarily spot you or are "looking" for you.
If you have a crim flag in one "law zone" and you earn another one in a separate "law zone", your original flag duration starts over as now more are looking for you. If you have three or more flags from different areas at once, then you are wanted city-wide.

GTA crimcode plz.

Oh man, it would be hilarious if you could put the "wanted" stars in your prompt.

[absurdist]

I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Yeah, that's why I deliberately avoided discussing the combat code in my post.

If we want to change something, lets make it feasible, is what I'm going after.

[Synthesis]

I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Yeah, that's why I deliberately avoided discussing the combat code in my post.

If we want to change something, lets make it feasible, is what I'm going after.

Feasible is skilling up sneak and hide.

That's it.

Literally all you have to do is a) pick a guild with sneak and hide or a subguild with sneak and hide; b) skill up; c) don't do shit in the IMMEDIATE vicinity of soldiers.  Like...it ain't rocket science.

[BadSkeelz]

Sure, if you want to be a pussy about it.

[absurdist]

I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Yeah, that's why I deliberately avoided discussing the combat code in my post.

If we want to change something, lets make it feasible, is what I'm going after.

Feasible is skilling up sneak and hide.

That's it.

Literally all you have to do is a) pick a guild with sneak and hide or a subguild with sneak and hide; b) skill up; c) don't do shit in the IMMEDIATE vicinity of soldiers.  Like...it ain't rocket science.

Yes, I already addressed how easy the crimcode is to avoid. Be a sneak and twink assassinate people, etc. - Just because it's possible to circumvent does not mean that crimcode itself is not inane. That's like responding 'QQ noob, be the change' to every complaint or alternative suggestion. People here aren't just complaining about pickpockets being shit. They're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets