Feck the Police - is Crimcode worth it?

[BadSkeelz]

Whether it's been as an AoD PC or just a character who hates every other character, the Crimcode is often on my mind. Maybe it's because I joined Armageddon expecting to be murdered within 6 hours of playtime, but I've long felt the Crimcode is just too damn prevalent, punishing, and anachronistically effective. You know it's crazy when a soldier can punch a dude from beetleback and cause a half-dozen half giants to leap down from the rooftops to obliterate the poor schmuck. I'm sure we've all seen similar responses to something as innocuous as kicking someone in a bar fight.

In the interest of a more dynamic, engaging game, I propose the following: that crimcode in its current form be removed entirely. I see the following benefits from this:

1) VIP PCs will need to seriously rely on their on bodyguards for protection. Whether you're playing a silky-tressed indie merchant hauling all her coins around to avoid the Nenyuk fees, or a slumming noble who wants to cockslap commoners with their signet ring, you better invest some energy in acquiring bodyguards. A lot of clanned VIPs (nobles, templars, GMH) have access to NPC guards, but there's also numerous PC resources that can be utilized.

2) Disputes can be settled publicly and quickly. I recently had Staff bemoan to me how the current strategy for PVP is wait for everyone else to store. They didn't take me up on my request to grant my PC crim-code immunity so I could go back to settling things personally, but I suspect the point holds true for a lot of us: we'd fight people a lot more if it doing so didn't cause soldiers to pop out from behind ever rubbish pile. The long game of recruiting Templarate support, finding a adequately-skilled up assassin with the proper playtimes... that's all well and good. But this is fucking Allanak. Straight-forward public violence should always be an option. Think it's unrealistic? In the middle ages it wasn't unheard of for fucking dukes to be murdered in the streets by masked thugs. Enormously risky and potentially destabilizing? Sure! But at least it's something!

3) Racism and discrimination will be given free hand. Go ahead, throw rotten petochs at that breed! Take a swing at the Gemmed! Just don't be too surprised when the Gemmed fireballs you back... The resulting chaos will certainly keep Templars busy.

4) The AoD clan will have more relevance in the City. Right now, every duty they can perform in the City can be done as well or better by NPCs. Make it so people can't rely on the pop-up soldiers for protection and it'll start paying a lot more to have a few soldier friends to come bail you out. The AoD will also get more chance to practice their skills if they can attack people down in the City without sentencing them to Death-by-half-giant.

5) Eliminates crimcode abuse and mistakes. No more awkward mass-clanning before city RPTs involving Soldier NPCs to keep us all from getting killed by soldiers (especially those who really shouldn't). No more soldier-PCs getting in trouble because they're subduing people out of the Gaj, into a hovel to get murdered. See your friend getting grabbed by soldiers? Fight back! Soldiers, see that sniveling shit at the bar? Kill him!

Our tagline is "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal." A lot of people seem to think the first of those needs to come after the other two. I disagree. Remove crimcode and let physical violence and murder come to the forefront once again.


Disclaimer: None of this probably codedly feasible, but when has that ever stopped us from discussing something?

[nauta]

3) Racism and discrimination will be given free hand. Go ahead, throw rotten petochs at that breed! Take a swing at the Gemmed! Just don't be too surprised when the Gemmed fireballs you back... The resulting chaos will certainly keep Templars busy.

Love the idea.  I did manage to play a PC who did the 'daggers-at-night' thing on the street, but for the most part, yeah, it seemed like the only Murder that happened was apartment-style seduce-and-stab - and I literally had conversations IG about best strategy in dealing with an enemy and the 'wait until they store or die from scrab' strategy was not-so-obliquely brought up and the one most often pursued.  (Partly this was playtimes: very rarely would the opportunity happen.)

I would say that you'd still want 'mob justice' or some sort of virtual/non-virtual reaction to gemmed casting in the street.  That's the type of shit that'll get a Quarter burnt down.

[Is Friday]

I'm not for removal, but reducing prevalence would be great.

[Narf]

I'd agree with reducing the prevalence of soldiers, particularly in the commoner's quarters and the Gaj.

This was done in Tuluk a bit before it closed so there's precedence that can be examined if people are worried about unforeseen effects.

[Inks]

This is the best post you have ever done Skeelz. Even if not removed they should remove the HG death squads and replace them with say, a couple of humans.

What was done with warrens basically was amazing. No freespawns just the coded soldiers on patrol would jump in. I killed someone in the daytime once (it clicked over to dawn) and was attacked by one soldier who had wandered nearby without my knowledge.

[Beethoven]

I do not think it makes sense to remove NPC soldiers and leave it to PCs, because the PC soldiers are supposed to be one of many legions/units, and I don't know why the entirety of city defense would be suddenly left wholly up to them. What we have now is definitely excessive, though, and options for murder within the city are very limited.

[Barzalene]

Changes are a lot of work. So, my suggestion might not be practical. I'd like if we could try out a few levels of crim control and find what makes the most sense thematically and for playability.

I would not like every newly spawned pc to be nothing more than a piggy bank for they first thug the wander past on their way out of the gaj's dorm.

[whitt]

Voted to reduce the prevalence, meaning the response time, not necessarily much else.  Oh and the Gaj being less "lawful".  Some specific points.

1) VIP PCs will need to seriously rely on their on bodyguards for protection.

With a slower response time, guards would be needed to buy time for the militia to arrive.  That said, making an open attempt on a VIP in broad daylight is both desperate and bold.  I would expect success rates to be only marginally higher.  I'd bet lack of (really reverse) bleeding code saves more of these sorts.  Being stabbed and knocked unconscious should be a virtual death sentence, not a quick route to a healthier you, but I digress.

2) Disputes can be settled publicly and quickly.

Longer delay on Militia arrival allows this too.  Just better be quick about it.

3) Racism and discrimination will be given free hand. Go ahead, throw rotten petochs at that breed! Take a swing at the Gemmed! Just don't be too surprised when the Gemmed fireballs you back... The resulting chaos will certainly keep Templars busy.

And this is where I start to think maybe the crim code needs to stay as it is because of the HUGE impact IC and OOC of abuse of a lack of crimcode.  A spiced out combat beast or a gemmed can end the stories of so many characters in such a short period of time that failing to properly cut that off can quickly damage the playerbase.  First time it's stunning and a story to talk about.  Second time it's just annoying, third time it happens in the same week?  Dozens of PCs are dead and we have a board erupting into complaints and calls for lockdowns on violent behavior in the city.  Griefers, particularly those with twink Murder Master would LOVE a lack of crimcode.  They could laugh all day about how they rekt someone's long-lived RP character with their 2-day throw-away.

4) Right now, every duty they can perform in the City can be done as well or better by NPCs.

NPCs can't investigate, interrogate, or infuriate other PCs as well AoD PCs can.  Much like the threads about GMH Hunters being more than just hunters, I think AoD soldiers need to think of themselves as more than just "cops".

5) Eliminates crimcode abuse and mistakes. No more awkward mass-clanning before city RPTs involving Soldier NPCs to keep us all from getting killed by soldiers (especially those who really shouldn't). No more soldier-PCs getting in trouble because they're subduing people out of the Gaj, into a hovel to get murdered. See your friend getting grabbed by soldiers? Fight back! Soldiers, see that sniveling shit at the bar? Kill him!

Codedly difficult I'm sure, but next time there are riots (Tek help us all) turning the crim code off in the city would be awesome.  Would like to see Privates in the AoD maybe given more leeway in metting out some form of justice.  Just means the folks granting that promotion need to be sure.  Also would need monitoring to avoid abuse similar to if crim code was completed turned off or suddenly every private has their own murder-death-kill squad of giants to kill anyone they grapple.

[Desertman]

I can get this experience by going to play other hack and slash muds that already let you fight anywhere all of the time. Not for me.

[valeria]

I'd like to see the prevalence of NPC soldiers reduced in certain areas of the city, at least for a trial run, basically for the reasons stated in the well-thought-out OP.

[LauraMars]

I'd like to see the prevalence of NPC soldiers reduced in certain areas of the city, at least for a trial run, basically for the reasons stated in the well-thought-out OP.

I agree.

Less soldiers would be keen.

[FantasyWriter]

I would like for unarmed combat out in the open to be legal period so long as no one is killed or weapons drawn or property is damaged.
I mean I seem to recall there is a brawl script entailing someone busting a mug over someone's head? How is that more soft-core than punching them in the face with your fist?

[Saellyn]

Backstab is already basically a death sentence when used properly. This isn't really a necessary code change. We laready have almost 0 crimcode at night.

[CodeMaster]

4) The AoD clan will have more relevance in the City. Right now, every duty they can perform in the City can be done as well or better by NPCs. Make it so people can't rely on the pop-up soldiers for protection and it'll start paying a lot more to have a few soldier friends to come bail you out. The AoD will also get more chance to practice their skills if they can attack people down in the City without sentencing them to Death-by-half-giant.

It's interesting to imagine a setup where NPC soldiers quietly become inactive or go off-duty when PC soldiers are logged on.

Or their crim-code response changed to (only) guarding exits on the optimal path to the labyrinth, rather than going for a subdue.

[Case]

As long as there is solid support for vNPC crowding and recognition of assailants, etc etc. No stupid shit like arrows through and into crowded areas either.

[Rhyden]

I would prefer to reduce the extremity of crimcode first, but BadSkeelz's idea for removing it entirely sounds interesting.

[Majikal]

I would like the crimcode adjusted to allow more well timed and placed public assassinations, anything that moves the violent criminal threat away from desert/labyrinth/apartment only. A good ole bazaar shanking every now and then would be worth this IMO. As it stands your survival chance of spitting in the face of a PC templar is higher than punching a beggar at sun-up.

Kind of relevant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6eeFyVy6WY

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm good with removing all soldier Giants, and a few soldier NPC's. There should be 1-2 soldiers around without overlapping patrols for every 10 or so rooms, which is pretty close to how it is now, but there's hotspots where a bunch tend to group together that creat their own little death-zones. A soldier should pass through a given room once every 10-15 minutes, basically giving you chances for daytime crimes, but putting soldiers in between you for escape.

[Eyeball]

Fewer soldiers would just mean people could blithely kill the ones that remain.

[RogueGunslinger]

That would be easily fixed by bumping up their skills and off/def. Also making them low-medium strength so they can't insta-gib you, and giving them clubs. That would be helpful too.

[CodeMaster]

That problem might already be addressed by existing code...

[Bast]

Really? Ive seen nobles murdered in public and watch the criminals get away more than once. I think Crimecode is fine. You should able to be in public without serious fear or getting murdered at the bar. Which by the way..people do still get murdered in bars.

[Armaddict]

...why don't you guys just spend more time outside the city where this already exists?

Just curious.  Everyone seems to be all in favor of the instant-karma-playground, but only in the safety of the walls, or...you just want everyone packed together for it, or...what?  I've alluded numerous times to when hunting outside the city put you in the reach of anyone who decided to raid (which seemed to be most people), but I don't really understand why there's this sudden 'crimcode is bad' idea, when we can't even get people to agree that raiding scenes are a good thing?

[BadSkeelz]

...why don't you guys just spend more time outside the city where this already exists?

Just curious.  Everyone seems to be all in favor of the instant-karma-playground, but only in the safety of the walls, or...you just want everyone packed together for it, or...what?  I've alluded numerous times to when hunting outside the city put you in the reach of anyone who decided to raid (which seemed to be most people), but I don't really understand why there's this sudden 'crimcode is bad' idea, when we can't even get people to agree that raiding scenes are a good thing?

Because your hardscrabble dude on a mount is boring.

Seriously though, this isn't about raiding. This is about being able to settle scores or just engage in ultraviolence within sensible limits in the City, and not this quais-Tuluk "play nice except behind closed doors" thing we got now.

Great counter points raised, though. I voted for "remove all" because extreme positions are easier to start at, but I like the ideas for how to scale back the guards somewhat. I don't want an anything goes slaughter fest, but it shouldn't be a suicide mission to draw an axe and smash it into someone's face.

I'm just as home at the moment so don't really give a shit about the GDB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxPpaDt9teI

[Armaddict]

Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.