Transsexuals on Zalanthas

[Beethoven]

I don't think every PC should have to be bisexual, although I think bisexuality is very theme-appropriate. The docs say homosexuality is "common," not universal, and is not seen as aberrant. It certainly doesn't say that everyone is required to play a character that is willing to accept homosexual (or heterosexual) advances. Kinda different with the dress thing--people who react negatively should probably just let it go, although I do think that many people who wear those sorts of things are probably baiting. I didn't think I was, although there was probably a little bit of that sort of thing there.

Barz...yeah, I have experienced things like that IG, and it is pretty sigh-worthy.

[Delirium]

That reminds me.

There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:

"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."

Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms  of sexuality are okay!

[Beethoven]

Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms  of sexuality are okay!

Aaaaalllll forms?

[Delirium]

Hey, what happens between that man and his beetle is between them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Never get between a man and his mount.

Unless that's your thing.

[BadSkeelz]

So men don't have more facial hair than women?
There's no difference in facial structure, women's aren't rounder and softer around the edges?
They don't have more body hair with a coarser consistency?
A woman's hips aren't wider than a mans?
A man's shoulders don't tend to be wider?
Their skin is the same level of coarseness?
Men are just as likely to have big, bubbly butts?

By the way, these are all sexual characteristics and have nothing intrinsically to do with gender.

[Refugee]

That reminds me.

There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:

"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."

Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms  of sexuality are okay!

This.  Because there is IC and OOC pressure to force players to play gay or bisexual, and not just female PCs.  I think the idea is, it's alright for you to play your PC's sexuality however you want, and the population of Zalanthis won't think it's anything unusual.  But there's a underlying belief/effort/whatever you want to call it, that makes it seem wrong if you don't play a bisexual PC. 

Acceptance and understanding has to go both ways, or it won't exist at all.

[flurry]

~ The selection of male or female at character creation determines your character's presentation. It codedly results in assigning your character's pronouns and what other players will assume your character's sex is at a glance. It is not tied to anything physiological or psychological about your character - you are free to play your character as you wish. This is in line with our policy of zero sexual dimorphism in our currently playable races.

Context suggests that "sexual dimorphism" means "coded sexual dimorphism".

Exactly. Otherwise, what does it even mean to present as male or female?

In any case, I feel like if 'no sexism' is meant to have all these implications in this thread, that should be clarified in documentation.

[Beethoven]

That reminds me.

There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:

"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."

Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms  of sexuality are okay!

This.  Because there is IC and OOC pressure to force players to play gay or bisexual, and not just female PCs.  I think the idea is, it's alright for you to play your PC's sexuality however you want, and the population of Zalanthis won't think it's anything unusual.  But there's a underlying belief/effort/whatever you want to call it, that makes it seem wrong if you don't play a bisexual PC.  

Acceptance and understanding has to go both ways, or it won't exist at all.

Maybe they just really want you!

The only thing that bothers me is when someone says 'I'm gay,' 'I'm straight,' 'I'm bisexual,' or 'I'm a lesbian.' Hardly ever happens, but it's really weird when it does. Those terms seem really out of place.

[EvilRoeSlade]

By the way, these are all sexual characteristics and have nothing intrinsically to do with gender.

Yes that's a list of secondary sexual characteristics, in this topic that's about transsexuals and not transgenderuals.

Given the number of people that seem to think the only difference between the sexes is 'wang and vag' I thought it would be helpful to point out.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

My pcs sexuality is based on their 'feel.' If they feel gay or straight or bisexual, there they are. Gaydar is useful with me.

[Taijan]

Zalanthans aren't preprogrammed to have an "any port in a storm" mentality. Homo/hetero/bisexuality simply don't matter.  People will have their preferences, and interpersonal conflicts or stress might result from a case of incompatible orientations, but there's no social stigma associated with identifying as one sexuality or another.

The same goes for gender. There are biological differences between the two, though variations of that would be seen as a mutation at worst, and more often wouldn't be cause for notice until it came to sexy time.

The equality between genders is more concerned with gender roles. Concepts like "men fight, women cook" aren't in place. A man telling a woman to stay back and let the men do the fighting could expect to get his ass kicked and teeth knocked in. 

In the case of relationships, a dominant/submissive dynamic might exist where one person takes on roles that we as players typically associate with masculinity and the other femininity, but this dynamic wouldn't extend beyond the relationship.  Expecting one gender to always act a certain way would be abnormal.

On the topic of transsexuality, it could certainly exist. Just not wholly in the form that our society views it as. Where transvestism is concerned, a man could dress in clothes designed for women and women could wear clothes designed for men in mind, and for some it might be seen as a little odd - because some types of clothing are made with a specific body type in mind and someone without that body type is going to either be uncomfortable or look silly.
(RL Side Note: You'd think things like sweatpants would be gender neutral. Hoo boy, I'll never make that mistake again.)

Without clearly defined gender roles, this aspect of transsexuality isn't going to exist. However, that still leaves room for body image dissonance.  A man could feel like he should've been born a woman, or a woman could wish she were a man.

There could be many reasons why, but I'll generalize and say that it's a desire to see yourself and be viewed by the world as your ideal self.  Given how popular exercise, tanning, and expensive clothing/accessories are, I think most people can appreciate a desire to feel and be seen as attractive.  Hopefully the desire for attractiveness for self is something attainable - but in Zalanthas, it most likely wouldn't be. It's not possible with the technology available to add things that aren't there, only to take away.  Although removal of breasts or a penis would be crude, and likely would result in infection or death.

Struggling to attain that self image could be an interesting conflict to pursue. It could also lead to interpersonal conflict when the individual meets a person who possesses the traits and qualities that they wish they could have.  How is that going to affect their interactions with this person?  Will they show admiration?  Jealousy?  Hatred?

Regardless, this shouldn't be the character's only defining characteristic, because it'd get old real fast.

[CodeMaster]

surprisingly civil discussion in this thread, and plenty to consider. I think many other forums would have gone nuclear by now. 

[Case]

That reminds me.

There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:

"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."

Let's not get so "progressive" that we forget that all forms  of sexuality are okay!

I played both a totally gay and totally straight PC within the past year so I'm trying Del! It was really different in both cases surprisingly, had much more influence on my PC's behaviour than I thought.

[Case]

When I use 'gender role', I mean 'cultural role' to be quite honest, but it's more approachable term for anybody reading what I wrote. You could read what I wrote in the context of layman use of 'gender' however, and I'd still be making a point, because all cultures view biological male and female differently -too-.

And while all cultures have superficial differences in which they paint masculine and feminine, all cultures share a basic set of very similar expectations from which the superficial differences diverge. And those expectations are rooted in the diamorphism of our sexes.

In fact, it's not just all humans, it's all primate species.



That aside, I think we both agree that Zalanthas does not share such a basic set of similar expectations. And moreover ... does not even have any significant superficial differences. Yes?

That's the crux of why I think the state of being trans-gendered would be largely meaningless in Zalanthas to begin with.

Yeah, I do agree with the conclusion, although not necessarily how you reflect the cultural end of the discussion.

As for gender vs sex, I apologise if I annoyed you. Was grumpy before bed. However, I don't care about American Psych's terms for it, I'm not from America anyway and European psych is a thing, but I am aware that the issue of gender identity is only recently medical in mainstream science. I hinted at that in my post even. I believe gender vs sex is more sociological than medical (or at least gender is) and handled it as such. I'm entirely neutral to psychology's view on it and don't believe it's particularly useful to discuss.

[Delirium]

That reminds me.

There's this joke that's been very true in my experience playing female PCs:

"It's okay to be gay or bisexual, but how dare you play straight."

I played both a totally gay and totally straight PC within the past year so I'm trying Del! It was really different in both cases surprisingly, had much more influence on my PC's behaviour than I thought.

It's certainly led to some interesting situations, which turned out to be far more interesting and poignant than they would have if I'd decided to cheap out and let them hook up just because it was fun to RP with that other person, or whatever. I get the impression that happens a lot more than it should. "Oh this is the only non-virtual girl in my clan, time to ignore all the reasons why my character wouldn't actually be attracted to them and start mercilessly hitting on them!" It drives me a little batty. I see both genders doing it. I ignore it.

I guess my point is, I think "fluid sexual mores" can be used as an excuse too often instead of a way to further define your character.

[Case]

What really gives me pause is that some people are proposing that there really aren't men and women at all, just people with binary reproductive organs. In that case I do not see the point of anyone having "man" or "woman" in their sdesc. I understand the no sexism rule, and I LOVE that women are 100% as strong and have no limitations on Zalanthas. I now literally cannot stomach RPIs that do it any other way. But I think the way some people are proposing it is...really boring and more alienating to women than empowering. I say this as a woman, even though I play a lot of male characters. If I want to play a strong warrior woman, I want to play a strong warrior woman and not think that she's basically a genderless alien that is no more likely to have what we Earthlings think of as "female" voice or "female" facial features than the male VNPC across the street.

And I don't think it's all that thrilling for people who want to play transgendered roles, either, and find themselves wondering what secondary sex characteristics even exist. I can tell that the staff want this game to be welcoming to people of all walks of life, and I appreciate all they have done to reach out to women, minorities, and sexual minorities, but I think it has gone too far with the sexual homogeneity thing. It's unnecessary and counterproductive and everyone is disagreeing about where we stand. Some people think that women are equally likely to have beards as men, others disagree, clarification would be nice.

It's a little frustrating reading this if it's how you took my post above (and that of others) but it made me think at least.

I was describing the idea of the gender roles I believe hold in Zalanthas without comment as to expression or expectation beyond potential to perform a binary reproductive function I guess I see it as empowering. It doesn't mean men and women look the same, because there are trappings of biology to allow reproductive function, but it means they could. I roleplay my PCs as sexually dimorphic (usually modelled on people I dated since I hate writing descs heh) but I do not believe that feminineness or masculiness are expected qualities associated with the biological sexes IG. In turn, biological sex should not inform feminineness or masculiness IG. We load those terms as players. If we're referring to physical differences, voice, propensities for boobs or facial hair or whatever, these are biological. Clothing should be fashioned around what fits well.

Don't know how I can explain it better Beethoven :*(. It's not like I play many men so I obviously accept some differences.

[Beethoven]

It wasn't you, Case, I promise, or anyone who has been saying anything similar to what you have been saying. I didn't want to say it was Dman, because he hasn't posted in the conversation in a while and I didn't want to force him back into it, but...it's mostly Dman. I completely agree with you that there should be no GENDER roles on Zalanthas, and that has been established time and time again by staff. I guess I should have been more clear about whose opinions I was specifically irked with, because I don't want to be misunderstood here.

Desertman says there are zero BIOLOGICAL differences between women and men except for the boobs and the genitals. Women have beards, Adam's apples, deep, gravelly voices, "masculine" facial features, etc., just as often as men. That is all I disagree with. Nothing you have been saying has been at all objectionable to me, Case.

I guess I just kind of wondered if other people agreed with Dman, that this is the way biological sex should be treated IG.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

You can _try_ to say that women and men in Zalanthas have only one biological difference, but I doubt most of the playerbase would bite.

[LauraMars]

I've never played a gay pc either... I just don't know how to pretend to be attracted to lady parts.  If I played a male pc who had an active social life instead of just being a juggernaut of suicidal chaos, I suppose he would probably be gay.  Maybe my next pc will be a dude.

the most outrageous suggestion on this thread has been Taijan's claim that sweatpants aren't gender neutral though

I demand satisfaction and the right to sweatpants

[Barzalene]

the most outrageous suggestion on this thread has been Taijan's claim that sweatpants aren't gender neutral though

I demand satisfaction and the right to sweatpants

[Taijan]

I've never played a gay pc either... I just don't know how to pretend to be attracted to lady parts.  If I played a male pc who had an active social life instead of just being a juggernaut of suicidal chaos, I suppose he would probably be gay.  Maybe my next pc will be a dude.

the most outrageous suggestion on this thread has been Taijan's claim that sweatpants aren't gender neutral though

I demand satisfaction and the right to sweatpants

I tried them on, LauraMars.

It hurt me.

[Barzalene]

Are you sure they were sweatpants? Not maybe yoga pants? Tights? A girdle?

[BadSkeelz]

Cross-posting this zinger

Guys, you're letting yourselves get distracted from the real issue challenging the playerbase: whether male PCs can wear dresses or not.

Some better than others!

[LauraMars]

I tried them on, LauraMars.

It hurt me.

hurt your fashion sense you mean?