Pottery in the southlands

[Norcal]

I have been thinking about this. Maybe it should go in another thread, but staff can split it if they think it needs to be moved.

In order to make pottery you need a fuel source.  In the southlands, wood is rare, so there would be other fuel sources, most likely dung.

Today, animal dung is the most commonly used fuel source for pottery in the highlands of Peru and Bolivia. However it has fallen out of favor elsewhere. Any type of communal kiln in the south, would require a lot of dung, especially if high temperature firing was used.  Considering that much of the cooking in the south would also probably be done over dung, that would make it a valuable commodity. A lot more so that it is now. In fact the demand in Allanak alone, would make animal dung very rare, and expensive. Human waste would be used as well, making that Byn latrine...a real sid mine.  That is another topic however.

So for me a big question about pottery in the south, is the fuel source for making it. If dung is expensive, and wood as well, then pottery would be quite valuable. Don't forget that wood is even more rare in the south now, due to the war.

What about alternatives?  Soapstone for example? Perhaps the a source of large blocks of soapstone needs to appear in the south? Perhaps master potter should also be able to work this material? Perhaps Rukkians should have a spell to make clay? Perhaps a Krathi is required to fire a kiln?

And there is regional design and appearance of pottery. The south has the salt flats.  Salt firing and soda firing can both give pottery a very distinctive finish, and make it look cool. Perhaps a source of porcelain clay as well?

Given the possible value of the wares,  a  group could get very rich from pottery, and certain types of clay would be a nice resource to control.

That is just my two sids worth however. Cheers.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I need someone to teach me to use the game's kilns because honestly I could not get that shit started for the life of me and there's no kiln helpfile.

[bcw81]

I need someone to teach me to use the game's kilns because honestly I could not get that shit started for the life of me and there's no kiln helpfile.

RENT <Your name here>
You are now admitted to the kilns.

Craft clay into ____

[solera]

As far as I know, bone can be used for high temperature fires if you can pump air in.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

This was an unlit clan kiln that I couldn't figure out.

[Eurynomos]

I don't think dung is a rare commodity. Everyone makes it, from the highest Noble, to the lowest Rinther, and all the mounts in-between. For the sake of discussion, I think we can assume dung is 'everywhere' in Allanak.

[Barzalene]

Whoops! Wrong thread!

[Norcal]

I don't think dung is a rare commodity. Everyone makes it, from the highest Noble, to the lowest Rinther, and all the mounts in-between. For the sake of discussion, I think we can assume dung is 'everywhere' in Allanak.

I said animal dung would be rare, as it would be preferred to human dung I imagine.  And if everyone needs it for cooking fires, it would get used pretty quick. The point being that it is the primary fuel source of Allanak. That makes it valuable.

[Eurynomos]

Value comes from supply vs demand. There is likely an equal supply of dung as there is to the demand for it. If you don't have it -- Make it! (Or scavenge it). Things like metal are incredibly valuable, because the supply of it is incredibly low, and the demand for it, incredibly high.

[Norcal]

Naaahhhh, I think demand may out pace the poo. At least for the animal dung.  But you are the boss, so you win. Anyway, what about the other questions in my post?

[jcortrig]

From Wikipedia:

The law of conservation of mass, or principle of mass conservation, states that for any system closed to all transfers of matter and energy (both of which have mass), the mass of the system must remain constant over time, as system mass cannot change quantity if it is not added or removed. Hence, the quantity of mass is "conserved" over time. The law implies that mass can neither be created nor destroyed, although it may be rearranged in space, or the entities associated with it may be changed in form, as for example when light or physical work is transformed into particles that contribute the same mass to the system as the light or work had contributed. The law implies (requires) that during any chemical reaction, nuclear reaction, or radioactive decay in an isolated system, the total mass of the reactants or starting materials must be equal to the mass of the products.

The concept of mass conservation is widely used in many fields such as chemistry, mechanics, and fluid dynamics. Historically, mass conservation was discovered in chemical reactions by Antoine Lavoisier in the late 18th century, and was of crucial importance in the progress from alchemy to the modern natural science of chemistry.

The closely related concept of matter conservation was found to hold good in chemistry to such high approximation that it failed only for the high energies treated by the later refinements of relativity theory, but otherwise remains useful and sufficiently accurate for most chemical calculations, even in modern practice.

In special relativity, needed for accuracy when large energy transfers between systems is involved, the difference between thermodynamically closed and isolated systems becomes important, since conservation of mass is strictly and perfectly upheld only for so-called isolated systems, i.e. those completely isolated from all exchanges with the environment. In this circumstance, the mass-energy equivalence theorem states that mass conservation is equivalent to total energy conservation, which is the first law of thermodynamics. By contrast, for a thermodynamically closed system (i.e., one which is closed to exchanges of matter, but open to exchanges of non-material energy, such as heat and work, with the surroundings) mass is (usually) only approximately conserved. The input or output of non-material energy must change the mass of the system in relativity theory, although the change is usually small, since relatively large amounts of such energy (by comparison with ordinary experience) carry only a small amount of mass (again by ordinary standards of measurement).

In special relativity, mass is not converted to energy, since mass and energy cannot be destroyed, and energy in all of its forms always retains its equivalent amount of mass throughout any transformation to a different type of energy within a system (or translocation into or out of a system). Certain types of matter (a different concept) may be created or destroyed, but in all of these processes, the energy and mass associated with such matter remains unchanged in quantity (although type of energy associated with the matter may change form).

In general relativity, mass (and energy) conservation in expanding volumes of space is a complex concept, subject to different definitions, and neither mass nor energy is as strictly and simply conserved as is the case in special relativity and in Minkowski space. For a discussion, see mass in general relativity.

So we're all clear now, right?  I mean seriously - it all boils down to:  *handwaving*  There's plenty of poop to make stuff, worry about other things. 

[Norcal]

Did you bother to read the post just above yours?  I asked what about the other questions in my post. And *handwaving* you went back to the poo. Please make a positive contribution to the discussion about pottery and it's alternatives if you have one.

[In Dreams]

I don't think dung is a rare commodity. Everyone makes it, from the highest Noble, to the lowest Rinther, and all the mounts in-between. For the sake of discussion, I think we can assume dung is 'everywhere' in Allanak.

This makes me feel like PCs and NPCs should create dung like animals do.

You notice: the cute, tressy-haired noble's aid squeezes out a fist-sized ball of dung.

[Talia]

This makes me feel like PCs and NPCs should create dung like animals do.

Please wish up to have this bit of code attached to your PC by an Admin+. Warning: It's random and will probably lead to extremely awkward results while tavern-sitting or during mudsex.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hahaha. Hahahahaha.

Oh, God, help me. Belly hurts. Hunnph.

[Taven]

This makes me feel like PCs and NPCs should create dung like animals do.

Please wish up to have this bit of code attached to your PC by an Admin+. Warning: It's random and will probably lead to extremely awkward results while tavern-sitting or during mudsex.

I'd be so tempted to make a PC just for this. BEST SPEC APP EVER.

Amosa the very serious, etiquette-oriented, dainty Atrium student. She just has one little problem...


Best. Thing. Ever!!

[Talia]

I'd be so tempted to make a PC just for this. BEST SPEC APP EVER.

I'd have to test the code to make sure it didn't bork anything, but since it's on all the mounts and works fine...I don't see why it wouldn't work on a PC. I'd probably approve this.

[Jihelu]

Would we get a shit command or would it give us prompts every now and then to let us know we gotta go.

[TheWanderer]

I'M GLAD I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT TAKES HIS CHARACTER'S BOWEL MOVEMENTS SERIOUSLY

[Talia]

Would we get a shit command or would it give us prompts every now and then to let us know we gotta go.

It would just happen without warning. You'd suddenly shit on yourself. No command necessary, no control either!

[Norcal]

Em  Mutters about a really crappy derail. 
I'm out of this thread.  Cheers.

[Taijan]

[remove ST cap]
I'm not sure that dung would be that rare of a commodity. Between chalton, inix, beetles, and other herbivorous mounts, there should be plenty to go around. Humanoid feces might not be as well-suited to the task due to the relatively low amount of vegetable matter in their dung, at least with most PCs.  Perhaps they've got enough fiber in their diet to let it burn nicely - dwarves, muls, and especially half-giants would have a reasonable output to keep supply high. And then you've got your tamed mekillots - being mostly carnivorous, it might not burn so well, but maybe enough to do the job. You just wouldn't want to cook with it.

Given how massive inix and oxen in the north are, they must crap tons - more than enough for dung to be a viable export without reducing their own supply. They've still got wood to use, though some might prefer the flavor that dung imparts.  But that too is its own topic.

There are also scraggly plants and leftover material from crops that could perhaps be wrapped together and dried as a fuel source, but that's just speculation on my part. Another source would be wild mekillots. The piles that'd be found in the Salt Flats would be suitably massive, and the heat and salt would make short work of drying them out.  This is just pottery we're talking about, so the awful smell wouldn't be that huge of a deal.

So there we've got supply covered. Demand might not be as high as you'd think, since there are only a handful of places in the city with access to kilns. That'd limit the number of people who could be trying to make pottery at any given time, and the people running the kiln could conceivably keep them lit at all times as long as there was a steady supply of fuel.

[Desertman]

I want to cook everything I cook now over a mek shit fire.

"Get your smoked meat!" Smoked for flavor! Tastes like authentic shit!".

[BadSkeelz]

Given the amount of dung within the City itself, I wonder if people would really want to bother going after mekillot dung on the salt flats.

[Taijan]

Well there's prestige, the fact that it's dried for you, and the knowledge that you're not rolling your neighbor's poo between your fingers.

First things first, we're gonna need dung deposits and dunghackers.

[RogueGunslinger]

Given the amount of dung within the City itself, I wonder if people would really want to bother going after mekillot dung on the salt flats.

There are Mek's in the city too, so even less reason for them leaving the gates for it.

[Kalai]

Human dung and bird droppings are tolerably usable; pure carnivore droppings are generally not.

Dung isn't an optimal fuel source - less efficient vs wood, more and worse smoke - and reaches the necessary temperatures better in bonfire-fired pottery vs kiln-fired. You'll need more of it to match the performance of charcoal, thus providing a bit of a boost on the demand side, even if we say kilns can use dung fine.  

Mixing crop leavings with dung is pretty handy, and indeed in some places is how dung cakes for fuel and so on are crafted. Could especially supplement such as human dung that has less fibrous plant matter vs large herbivores.

The demand for dung is less likely to be 'do we have enough dung?' and more the labor put into collecting, mixing (sometimes), drying, shaping, and moving the stuff. This can still be significant without implying dung itself is particularly low in supply.

[solera]

Fat and tallow. Rather than feed it to the great unwashed, unenlightened poor.

[Norcal]

OK, since this has changed from a thread about pottery to a thread about poo;

Here  are the numbers.

Supply side in the real world:
On average, people (humans) put out about 450 g of poo per 24h.
75% of that is water. So dried weight is 113.25 g.
If you have a household of 7 people then you produce 792.75 g of dry poo per day.

Demand side:
In an -efficient- dung burning stove, it takes 1,800 g of dried dung to boil 5 liters of water. That is just to boil it, not to cook anything in it beyond boiling. I reckon about 20 mins, although the article does not say how long. So figure cooking whatever for 20 mins will take 1,800 g.

That is over twice as much as your household is putting out and only for one meal. And that assumes everyone is using an efficient stove.  Dung is only 50% to 75% as efficient as wood. But without a lot of wood, you will need to use dung. That is just for cooking, not to mention any industrial uses.

The human supply is not enough, and not very palatable. That means that animal dung will be in demand.  

People assume that there are lots of beetles and other domestic animals in Allanak.  I think only folks who are better off can afford them.  So there are not really oodles of poo lying about everywhere.  Allanak is not Amsterdam or Paris. That stuff is valuable.

[Reiloth]

Allanak is not Amsterdam or Paris because it doesn't have beetles the size of several humans, dinosaurs the size of half-giants, and a plethora of other goodies that produce (probably) plenty of poop.

I fail to see what the issue is? It's a game, there's plenty of things that don't make sense IC (Meat never rots, for instance), but we roll with it for the sake of playability.

I feel like this thread has devolved to arguing about poop, just to argue.

[Kalai]

Wait, the last time I tried to gather dung in Allanak (many years ago) the easy sources for it had in fact been exhausted. What is this strange new world where dung isn't a common but valuable resource in-game?

[Norcal]

Points of this thread were:

1. To suggest that POTTERY would be more valuable in Allanak than in the north, because it would be more expensive to make. Might there be other alternatives to it?

2. To suggest that the resources around Alanak could be used to make some very cool and unique pottery designs.

[Taijan]

Now that I'm done talking about dung...

Clay can also be left to bake in the sun or cooked in an oven/pit, but won't reach the same high temperatures and won't be heated as evenly. Sun-baked clay would likely be too porous to store liquids in, and oven-baked might not be much better. Even for some of the available kilns it could be iffy. So at the low end, I'd argue that pottery should remain cheap. But for higher end wares achieved at a greater cost of materials and with more specialized equipment?  Yeah, these things should be more expensive I think.

Salt fired clay looks pretty cool - but also difficult to make without a quality kiln. It also uses a technique that most likely doesn't exist or has been lost to time.  It might still be possible though - pursuing the development of the technique and the ensuing product line could be a fun goal for some to pursue.  The same goes for any craft really.

I'm not so sure about letting a Master Potter craft with soapstone since it's a kind of stone (albeit one that's very easy to carve), but those with the right skills and appropriate materials could make alternatives.

[BadSkeelz]

To Wikipedia!

Salt glaze pottery is stoneware with a glaze of glossy, translucent and slightly orange-peel-like texture which was formed by throwing common salt into the kiln during the higher temperature part of the firing process.

Hmmm. Maybe a high-quality kiln fired on salt-crusted mekillot dung would produce results suggestive of salt glazed pottery. A potter takes interest, starts experimenting trying to replicate it, eventually figures out it's dung from the salt fields, figures out it's the salt, not the dung...

[Norcal]

So you don't think Master potter should get stoneworking then? I don't know what they get currently.

[Beethoven]

Master Potter, our new celebrity, doesn't appear to get master stoneworking or any kind of stoneworking skill, according to the helpfile.

[valeria]

New character concept:

the exceptionally hirsute man
? / Master Potter

[Talia]

New character concept:

the exceptionally hirsute man
? / Master Potter

elkrosian

[bcw81]

New character concept:

the exceptionally hirsute man
? / Master Potter

elkrosian

em rubs ~clay.vase all over his furry chest, sparking up.

[WithSprinkles]

I couldn't help but think of this:

[valeria]

I think Talia gets me.  amirite

[Talia]

I think Talia gets me.  amirite

It's like no one but you, me, and Beethoven ever read the whole Harry Potter series three times.

So you don't think Master potter should get stoneworking then? I don't know what they get currently.

Master Potters can expertly create works from clay, as well as skillfully tint and color the clay with which they work. Living on the fruits of their labors, they are skilled at driving shrewd bargains. They are also much in demand with merchant houses or individual customers, as their prowess with clay allows them to create unique designs.

They're master clayworkers. They make pottery.

[Desertman]

I have been under the impression that the clay pits in Allanak would be inside the city walls, much the same way as they were/are in Tuluk.

The idea that they would be clay deposits out in the wilds never even occurred to me until now. I just sort of assumed they would be inside, because, "Always been that way.".

I really like the idea of clay being something not readily available inside of the city walls with no risk.

[seidhr]

I think we have to suspend disbelief for a lot of things in the game, and choose our battles for which things to implement realistically or not.  Clay prices based on the rarity of poop and/or other fuel to run kilns is pretty far down the list for me, personally.   

[Revenant]

Put dung in a crust, bake a pie, sell to the wealthy... Or just smash it in someone's face.

[Synthesis]

Put dung in a crust, bake a pie, sell to the wealthy... Or just smash it in someone's face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zb1qsVqjwg