There's a problem with money in the game

[shadeoux]

That is incorrect.

Well, perhaps everything YOU want.

Ding ding ding! We all want different things, and I feel, if you are upfront with the staff and set reasonable goals, you can get things done.
You will not have a "warehouse built custom" for you, however, you may be able to eventually "rent" one that is available eventually, with
enough financial and political backing. When was the last time you just dropped off 5k to your local Templar and said have a nice day.

Everything in this game takes time, the moment things start getting done quicker, people will expect it to be done even faster! I like all the
implementations the last five years have had. (Except the poop code.) I know I don't have fond relations with the staff, I try to push the
limits with everything I do. (And I know it irritates them, but like any entrepreneur, you try to get the most bang for your buck.) But I do
communicate with them about what I want and eventually, we agree to disagree and find a median.

[Taijan]

Now that I'm done advocating for the poor economy and some other matters seem to have tapered off for the time being, I'm curious about wizturbo and Delirium's mention of merchanty-type issues and greatsword/dagger prices.  Some aspects of that might have some overlap with a couple of things I've been working on already.  Care to elaborate?

I for one have noticed that some items that should be expensive are cheap, and things that should be cheap are perhaps too valuable. Some money making schemes should be low yield but certainly produce results, while others that should be better fall apart too often.

Or to look in another direction, I think it could be beneficial to have a wider gap in costs between things a noble could readily afford and things made just for commoners in mind. Particularly enterprising commoners COULD buy them, but it would take effort and might attract some negative attention.

[shadeoux]

I for one, wouldn't allow commoners to touch Silk. Let Kadius be the sole proprietor of that market. I am sure there are several other things I think the commoner shouldn't have access to either but I'll think about it and see what I can come up with.

[Tetra]

I personally find the whole "commoners shouldn't wear silk" concept to be a really superfluous taboo.

Zalanthan nobility are clearly superior in every way, shape and form to commoners.  Purely by their blood/breeding/family name.  99.9% of commoners knowingly agree with this on a very deep level, due to innumerable years of social conditioning.

Nobles are not noble because of the fabric they wear.  They are noble by virtue of existing.  If a highborn is genuinely offended by a commoner wearing silk, what that says to me is they are insecure of their own social standing.  Yet commoners can eat all sorts of fancy food or wear jewelry and that doesn't seem to matter as much.

[MeTekillot]

I think it was a thing brought about by gloves being so fashionable and then the guys hesitating to bow to you that the silk taboo came along.

[Armaddict]

I personally find the whole "commoners shouldn't wear silk" concept to be a really superfluous taboo.

Zalanthan nobility are clearly superior in every way, shape and form to commoners.  Purely by their blood/breeding/family name.  99.9% of commoners knowingly agree with this on a very deep level, due to innumerable years of social conditioning.

Nobles are not noble because of the fabric they wear.  They are noble by virtue of existing.  If a highborn is genuinely offended by a commoner wearing silk, what that says to me is they are insecure of their own social standing.  Yet commoners can eat all sorts of fancy food or wear jewelry and that doesn't seem to matter as much.

I would be completely fine with it, if we didn't FLOOD THE MARKET WITH NICE SILK THINGS.
Nice armor is different.  There's the same 'tiers' of value, but the top tier isn't just -chock full- of items.  Clothing is.  Anyone wanting to wear normal clothes and have any sort of individuality without crossing the silk barrier is literally on a treasure hunt across the whole of Zalanthas.

[ibusoe]

I personally find the whole "commoners shouldn't wear silk" concept to be a really superfluous taboo.

Zalanthan nobility are clearly superior in every way, shape and form to commoners.  Purely by their blood/breeding/family name.  99.9% of commoners knowingly agree with this on a very deep level, due to innumerable years of social conditioning.

Nobles are not noble because of the fabric they wear.  They are noble by virtue of existing.  If a highborn is genuinely offended by a commoner wearing silk, what that says to me is they are insecure of their own social standing.  Yet commoners can eat all sorts of fancy food or wear jewelry and that doesn't seem to matter as much.

Yeah, I agree with this.  Silk and metal are both things that they that extremely affluent commoners should not only buy, they should wear.  People forget that this is a slave-owning, mount-owning society.  Not all commoners are created equal.

What percentage of commoners are completely destitute?  I feel that even 98% would be too high, but even if it were 98%, the remaining 2% would still equal a lot of commoners.  

Metal and silk?  These are things that a retired mercenary (read: privateer) should probably own, even if in small amounts, even if only for special occasions.  A pair of silk gloves would be an excellent thing for a (well to do) commoner to own to show that he weren't a total peon.  The VIPs in this game *should* be a little impressed (or at least wary) of a commoner who is dressing up a bit, especially one who still remembers to bow and scrape at the proper moments. 

Atrium graduates?  Commoners.  Bards?  Commoners.  Christopher Columbus and Joan d'Arc and Oliver Cromwell were all commoners living in Feudal societies.  They didn't start out with much in life.  D'Arc was illiterate.
All three became more wealthy *and* powerful than the nobility that they operated along-side with.  

I think that what some of the people who disagree with me don't get, is that there is at least one very important thing that money can't buy you in game:  a cool last name (e.g. Kadius, Oash, etc.)

You know what should maybe be restricted?  Things that are actually important, and neither metal or silk are really that important.  Magic items are important.  Books are important.  Magic components are important.  These are the things that commoners shouldn't have.  

[Tetra]

I think fashion culture in Zalanthas would be more realistic and interesting if that rule was bent more; seeing commoners try to imitate noble styles more exactly, and having the leeway to actually do so.  We all know nobles set the trends, and commoners mimic them.  Nobles stop wearing gloves to show off their signet rings.  Then what happens?  All of a sudden, gloves are out of style and those jozhal mitts are no longer the 'it thing'.  

A far more elegant solution than badgering a harlot for wearing some fancy shoes.

I would be completely fine with it, if we didn't FLOOD THE MARKET WITH NICE SILK THINGS.
Nice armor is different.  There's the same 'tiers' of value, but the top tier isn't just -chock full- of items.  Clothing is.  Anyone wanting to wear normal clothes and have any sort of individuality without crossing the silk barrier is literally on a treasure hunt across the whole of Zalanthas.

It's true that if commoners had a cultural pass on wearing silk, they would likely wear it more often.

But the same logic can be said for nobles only wearing it;  there are innumerable silk designs in game, and only so many nobles playing at any given time.  That is to say, countless silk items are going unworn in the game world.  So why continue generating more?  It seems almost nonsensical from a design perspective to have hundreds of silk items and only 2% of the playerbase able to wear them openly.

[Talia]

Allanak's culture is not Tuluk's culture. It's not going to become Tuluk's culture. Restricting what people get to wear or own is not a new concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law

Please don't take these ideas and start trying to push them in game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In a metal-poor world, metal is absolutely important. In fact, if I were to really guess, I'd say that it's more important than gems could ever be. In our own world, currency is supposedly backed by gold, a metal which isn't even rare. No, commoners should not wear or bear metal. Ever. Legally.

As for silk, I think that ranking Commoners in Important Places/Houses/Service will see a little leeway on getting a boot to the head from the Highborn. But Bynner #4587? No.

[Tetra]

Allanak's culture is not Tuluk's culture. It's not going to become Tuluk's culture. Restricting what people get to wear or own is not a new concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law

Please don't take these ideas and start trying to push them in game.

Not even if I special apped a family/tribe of Tuluki refugees that grew to such a point that it sanctioned templar support for its usefulness, thus shifting the underlying status quo of silk-wearing and earning a protected status within the city(I'm insane enough, you know I'll do it).


jkjkjk.

(There is another MUD I have played that uses Sumptuary laws, even going so far as to legalize wearing of certain colours and garment styles.)

[Armaddict]

Allanak's culture is not Tuluk's culture. It's not going to become Tuluk's culture. Restricting what people get to wear or own is not a new concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law

Please don't take these ideas and start trying to push them in game.

I think you misunderstood.  I spoke of variety.  Of style.  Of ability to wear non-silk and actually have something remotely interesting.  It's not impossible, but it's certainly very difficult.  My gripe was that there's this huge host of items that are not allowed to be worn by most, and a seemingly much smaller database of non-armor clothing (i.e. for style) for the common folk.

Plz find me a grey non-silk non-leather clothing set that is not generic base-level crafted.  I been looking for awhile.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ah, I understand. And, I agree. Commoners would emulate Highborn style, but in lesser fabrics. This is a non-served niche that really should be the norm.

[Talia]

I think you misunderstood.  I spoke of variety.  Of style.  Of ability to wear non-silk and actually have something remotely interesting.  It's not impossible, but it's certainly very difficult.  My gripe was that there's this huge host of items that are not allowed to be worn by most, and a seemingly much smaller database of non-armor clothing (i.e. for style) for the common folk.

Plz find me a grey non-silk non-leather clothing set that is not generic base-level crafted.  I been looking for awhile.

I wasn't directly responding to you, but to Tetra, really. I agree with you that there is not enough "fancy and/or interesting but still not silk" stuff for commoners to wear. Partly this is a legacy of about 11 billion silk things having been created for nobles by staff in years of yore; plus the current mastercrafting process which usually results in players making silk stuff instead of non-silk stuff. I'd love to see mastercrafts which are non-silk, and I have myself in the past at times built culture-specific, cool things for commoners which weren't silk. (E.g. the cotton kalasiris that you can get in the starter area for Allanak, or the painted cotton sarongs in the starter area for Tuluk.)

So yeah I agree with you that there is not enough interesting clothing that is not silk. That is not a project that I personally am going to take on at this point, however. Maybe I will consider it for the future.

[Clearsighted]

Personally, I think people should be able to wear whatever they can afford. Perhaps at best, as in Ancient Rome, certain colors would be restricted (such as the color purple, which required an extremely expensive dye).

As it happens, silk clothing is way too plentiful and cheap to justify being noble only. I don't know how the silkweavers or merchants can even afford to stay in business. I've seen silk dresses and blouses cost less than a scrab shell codpiece.

Perhaps silk needs to be changed to like, give +20 stamina or whatever, and made 5x more expensive. Or whatever. The current system seems irrational.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Uh. Silk actually costs quite a bit, if the item material is silk. Sometimes the item's material isn't silk, but the description is. Those are probably what you're talking about. NPCs base prices on the material used in the item's material value.

Uh, I think.

[Tetra]

Personally, I think people should be able to wear whatever they can afford. Perhaps at best, as in Ancient Rome, certain colors would be restricted (such as the color purple, which required an extremely expensive dye).

As it happens, silk clothing is way too plentiful and cheap to justify being noble only. I don't know how the silkweavers or merchants can even afford to stay in business. I've seen silk dresses and blouses cost less than a scrab shell codpiece.

Perhaps silk needs to be changed to like, give +20 stamina or whatever, and made 5x more expensive. Or whatever. The current system seems irrational.

Another thing is, silk is actually extremely shitty to wear in hot weather.  I wore a lot of rawsilk when I was travelling in India, and its not as breathable as linen or cotton fibres..Hardly practical, but then again we are talking about nobles. 

Edit: I guess it depends on the weave and cut, disregard.

[Bast]

I hate that apartments come with built in beds ect..I would much rather buy my furniture and have more options at the shop for it.

That and Houses can we please have houses? Like every other semi decent mud I have tried has housing. I am just very discouraged when it comes to that part of the game.

Food in Nak I think is so stupidly expensive no one ever buys it. I would spend a shit ton more trying foods and buying from grocers shops just to try things if the price was so freaking ridiculous. piece of meat that wont fill you up? 200 ..price of your rent for a month 450 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I hate that apartments come with built in beds ect..I would much rather buy my furniture and have more options at the shop for it.

Yeh.

[Armaddict]

I hate that apartments come with built in beds ect..I would much rather buy my furniture and have more options at the shop for it.

Yeh.

Noteworthy, so far as the 'giving more ways to spend money'.

[Clearsighted]

Uh. Silk actually costs quite a bit, if the item material is silk. Sometimes the item's material isn't silk, but the description is. Those are probably what you're talking about. NPCs base prices on the material used in the item's material value.

Uh, I think.

From what I've seen, the vast majority of silk clothing is no more expensive than the armor/gear a Byn Trooper might wear.

Some of it is a bit more expensive than others. Other stuff seems very cheap.

But even a full, body length, flowing white hooded silk robe is only about two large. It's purchasable from some random, dirty peasant walking around hocking wares in the bazaar.

To put 'two large' in perspective, at the new clay mining pit, a shishkabob of scrab meat costs 60 coins. Hell, a raptor meat steaks costs something like 150 sids. So a flowing, hooded robe of pristine white silk is roughly of equal value to around twenty steaks (being generous here).

I've seen plenty of other silk items that went from 2-5 small. They're sold at the Kadius shop all the time. The average is comfortably less than a large. Hell, Salarr sells studded leather pants that cost more than most silk pants.

If silk is priced at a level where a reasonably successful Byn Trooper can afford it (if they had any desire to purchase it), then clearly, it's far too commonly available to make any sense whatsoever restricting to a tiny caste of nobility, who would not be able to buy enough of it, by themselves, to sustain the silk-weaving economy.

It all just ties into Clearsighted's Theory of Good Solutions to Game Design Problems:

Problem: Too many commoners are wearing silk.

Bad Solution: Arbitrarily restrict the wearing of silk to noble PCs. Change nothing else.

Good Solution: Make silk more expensive, and if need be, give noble PCs more sids with which to spend on luxury items. This should mean that only truly wealthy commoners are able to afford the luxury of silk. If every dirty whore, aide whore, gicker whore or indy hunter whore in the city is still prancing around in silks, then consider tweaking the economy. There might be an extremely easy method that people are using to amass huge mountains of sids that could be adjusted (such as ivory hair needles).

Oh, and if commoners still have too much sids, consider giving them more sinks for it, like making spice more interesting, or removing free food from the GMHs. Consider giving clans food vendors instead, where they sell food to clan members at reduced costs. Maybe only nobles to get to keep free food.

[John]

If you increase the amount that silk is sold for, will that also increase the amount silk is bought for, thus introducing more coin into the economy? If the answer is no thrn increasing the cost is a good solution. If the answer is yes then it is a bad solution. It depends on the code and what granularity it has.

The whole silk taboo thing came from PCs AFAIK. There was a rash of silk wearing PC commoners who were getting bowed to. The PC nobles got upset so the PC Templars started doing something about it. It has since become an ingrained part of the PC culture and staff have extended that to the NPC populace. Which is what people ask of staff. So to say it was handed down by staff is (historically) inaccurate.

[LauraMars]

Isn't who "can" and "cannot" wear silk a discussion for another thread, perhaps?

[Barzalene]

I personally find the whole "commoners shouldn't wear silk" concept to be a really superfluous taboo.

Zalanthan nobility are clearly superior in every way, shape and form to commoners.  Purely by their blood/breeding/family name.  99.9% of commoners knowingly agree with this on a very deep level, due to innumerable years of social conditioning.

Nobles are not noble because of the fabric they wear.  They are noble by virtue of existing.  If a highborn is genuinely offended by a commoner wearing silk, what that says to me is they are insecure of their own social standing.  Yet commoners can eat all sorts of fancy food or wear jewelry and that doesn't seem to matter as much.

The thing is, they don't want to show up in the same dress as you.

[Barzalene]

Food in Nak I think is so stupidly expensive no one ever buys it. I would spend a shit ton more trying foods and buying from grocers shops just to try things if the price was so freaking ridiculous. piece of meat that wont fill you up? 200 ..price of your rent for a month 450 

Yeah. Food could be a bit cheaper. With more low end foods that are filling. For special things, yes, 200 is a great place to start. For some meat? No.