There's a problem with money in the game

[ShaLeah]

I didn't read the whole thing.

Indies should never have mo money than GMHs or Noble Houses. They just shouldn't. One problem I see is the whole having to ask for permission from the House to use House funds for shit or get corrected. Noble PCs should start with a NICE nest egg and there should be a huge amount in the House bank account, not for whimsy but for shit that matters. Let the stupid nobles who waste the money suffer ic consequences. Same thing with gmh employees, they're not all merchants, they don't all want to sell or craft but they should all still be able to bribe extravagantly.

It sucks being a newble and having to say "goddamn I can't afford that!". Should be able to afford to do anything in game. Money shouldn't be an issue for the 'supposedly' wealthy.


Yay wagons!

[Talia]

One problem I see is the whole having to ask for permission from the House to use House funds for shit or get corrected. Noble PCs should start with a NICE nest egg and there should be a huge amount in the House bank account, not for whimsy but for shit that matters. Let the stupid nobles who waste the money suffer ic consequences. ... It sucks being a newble and having to say "goddamn I can't afford that!". Should be able to afford to do anything in game. Money shouldn't be an issue for the 'supposedly' wealthy.

Compared to how things were when I used to play nobles, noobles now get an insane fuckton of money through their stipends, depending on which house they are from. I'd say that based on house rank it goes from "totally insane fuckton" down to "I might have to budget a little bit." But all of them have plenty of personal cash to spend on silks, decorative weapons, spice, booze, bribes, and favors. Nobles are rich, though some are richer than others.

If the player of a noble wants to spend money on something that could benefit the house, they can ask about that. We are not tight-fisted with this but there does need to be a rationale. It is not unusual for tens of thousands of coins to be flying around the game after the house grants use of coin to a noble PC. Stuff we've approved large expenditures for in the past year are things like parties, festivals, arena events, political bribes, etc. All that needs to happen for this is for the player of the noble to make a request and to give a good reason that makes sense to the house. And it's even more likely to be granted if the money will be used to drive plots or activities for other players in game.

[Desertman]

So please no one be holding your breath over it.

You can't tell me what to do! I want it now!

[Taijan]

Think of how many problems would be solved if Nenyuk only gave bank accounts to certain clans, and only people above a certain rank could withdraw from it.

[Desertman]

Think of how many problems would be solved if Nenyuk only gave bank accounts to certain clans, and only people above a certain rank could withdraw from it.

I could get behind this.

[Talia]

Think of how many problems would be solved if Nenyuk only gave bank accounts to certain clans, and only people above a certain rank could withdraw from it.

Well...we can already do this with the "banker" role. If you're not banker or leader for the clan, you can't withdraw from the clan bank account.

Or maybe there's something I'm not understanding here.

[ibusoe]

If anything, my opinion comes from being a very long term player, not from being new.

Sorry.  I seem to have committed any number of gaffes in my post.  Hopefully you didn't have the impression that I didn't like your idea.  Actually, I think most of the posters here do like your idea, but they're attempts to be helpful are backfiring, as did mine.  I certainly understand what it feels like to post a reasonable idea on the board, something innocuous like "Hey wouldn't it be cool if the hawks that you sometimes find in the wilderness were able to produce a cool screech or a room echo?" and like three people insist that your idea would never work, five people insist that it would break the game balance and pretty much everyone else insists that you're attempting to re-crucify Jesus.  Hah.  Yeah, it seems like in most cases there are simple code limitations that are preventing your ideas from going in, but as far as I can tell most of the other people like them.

[Desertman]

Think of how many problems would be solved if Nenyuk only gave bank accounts to certain clans, and only people above a certain rank could withdraw from it.

Well...we can already do this with the "banker" role. If you're not banker or leader for the clan, you can't withdraw from the clan bank account.

Or maybe there's something I'm not understanding here.

He means if independent Joes could not use Nenyuk's fullproof and completely safe in every capacity services all together.

He wants people who would otherwise be able to amass huge fortunes with no ability to actually guard it, sans Nenyuk, to have to either develop ways to guard it, or lose it (most likely through player on player conflict).

Unless I'm also not understanding.

[Taijan]

Think of how many problems would be solved if Nenyuk only gave bank accounts to certain clans, and only people above a certain rank could withdraw from it.

Well...we can already do this with the "banker" role. If you're not banker or leader for the clan, you can't withdraw from the clan bank account.

Or maybe there's something I'm not understanding here.

He means if independent Joes could not use Nenyuk's fullproof and completely safe in every capacity services all together.

He wants people who would otherwise be able to amass huge fortunes with no ability to actually guard it, sans Nenyuk, to have to either develop ways to guard it, or lose it (most likely through player on player conflict).

Unless I'm also not understanding.

Nope, Desertman's got it down perfect.

[Marauder Moe]

So... the idea is to use the actual weight of money as a factor limiting its accumulation?  Or is this simply to be realistic?

If the latter, then I'm OK with banks not having accounts for Amos Everyman but only if we implement parchment/leather/large-denomination money.

It'd be easy enough to do.  Banknote increments of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000.  Add NPC shopkeepers to Nenyuk locations that sell and buy these items for the same price, no haggle.  Voila, paper money.  PCs can exchange at will.  If it's deemed necessary, other NPC shopkeepers could get a ">make change" script of some sort later on.

[Desertman]

So... the idea is to use the actual weight of money as a factor limiting its accumulation?  Or is this simply to be realistic?

If the latter, then I'm OK with banks not having accounts for Amos Everyman but only if we implement parchment/leather/large-denomination money.

It'd be easy enough to do.  Banknote increments of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000.  Add NPC shopkeepers to Nenyuk locations that sell and buy these items for the same price, no haggle.  Voila, paper money.  PCs can exchange at will.  If it's deemed necessary, other NPC shopkeepers could get a ">make change" script of some sort later on.

Or, or, and stay with me here.....what if you got...."a Nenyuk-stamped leather ticket", for all of your deposits that you made instead of us trying to figure out why Nenyuk recognizes and remembers every single commoner in the world on sight and knows all of their account history details just by a clerk looking at them?

Weight isn't the limiting factor, because that's kind of silly.

The limiting factor should be, "Am I strong enough to protect this fortune?", and "What IC measures am I taking to ensure my fortune is safe?". (hiring guards, paying off thugs, paying to have thugs killed, paying for higher-end places to keep your money secure, paying for political protections etc...etc...and just plain old killing people when they come to try and rob you because they know you are rich as crap and they have a chance of getting that fortune.)

Right now, you just put it in Nenyuk and it goes off into magical lala land, completely safe in pretty much every capacity beyond extortion, which is fine, but it could be so much more.

I would however prefer to see merchant House employees and noble House employees get to keep their ultra-safe bank accounts as a perk of being part of those organizations. Krath knows they need some more. (No sarcasm. They really need more perks to make those jobs more desirable.)

[Marauder Moe]

Meh.  It makes a lot more sense to simply have generic banknotes that mean "THIS NOTE IS WORTH 500 COINS" rather than specific ones that means "LOOK UP TRANSACTION #9872491".

Banknotes can be safely stacked in inventory and traded between PCs.  With tickets, you worry that differently-valued transaction tickets got mixed up or lied about.

[Desertman]

Meh.  It makes a lot more sense to simply have generic banknotes that mean "THIS NOTE IS WORTH 500 COINS" rather than specific ones that means "LOOK UP TRANSACTION #9872491".

Banknotes can be safely stacked in inventory and traded between PCs.  With tickets, you worry that differently-valued transaction tickets got mixed up or lied about.

I like this a lot better than our current system. *shrug* Would take it in a heartbeat.

The tickets would represent coins that you could go get out of Nenyuk...most people would still trade in coins, not tickets. But, if someone actually tricked you/fooled into trading on the word that their "Ticket was good, I swear."...more power to them.

[BadSkeelz]

first they'll make us give up the obsidian standard, then they'll try to take our weapons away! then they'll make elf/human marriage legal!


Just kidding. I'm not wholly convinced on the thematic appropriateness of paper money, but do think getting more money out of banks and flowing around the PC population (Whether through trade or theft) is a good thing.

[Desertman]

first they'll make us give up the obsidian standard, then they'll try to take our weapons away! then they'll make elf/human marriage legal!


Just kidding. I'm not wholly convinced on the thematic appropriateness of paper money, but do think getting more money out of banks and flowing around the PC population (Whether through trade or theft) is a good thing.

I don't care for paper money. I like the idea of obsidian coins. Leather tickets that let you access those coins seem like the way to go and seem much more in line with the game world in my opinion.

As for the "multiple tickets and I don't know how much each are for" problem goes...you could always just consolidate your wealth under a single ticket, but that comes with its own risks obviously.

[BadSkeelz]

Tickets to access coins aren't all that different from paper currency, really. Used to be a $100 bill meant you could go into a bank and exchange it for $100 worth of gold coins. Your tickets aren't much different, except the value would change based on each ticket. Which, as Moe said, would be an administrative challenge for Nenyuk (though God knows how they manage now).

I like awkward obsidian coins as a currency, and I like the idea of Nenyuk being more exclusive. Being rich should be a challenge if you're not part of an organization that can help provide security. People with a lot of money will either need to A) acquire means of protecting it or B) spend it on material possessions or friends. Both help generate interaction between players.

Don't think of fortunes as something to be amassed. Getting rich isn't the goal of your character: surviving is. Money is something to be spent to help keep your character alive. A character with good income who saves little, because they're buying protection, is a lot better off in the long-run than a character with good income who's hoarded everything they've made and have bought zero protection.

[Desertman]

Tickets to access coins aren't all that different from paper currency, really. Used to be a $100 bill meant you could go into a bank and exchange it for $100 worth of gold coins. Your tickets aren't much different, except the value would change based on each ticket. Which, as Moe said, would be an administrative challenge for Nenyuk (though God knows how they manage now).

I like awkward obsidian coins as a currency, and I like the idea of Nenyuk being more exclusive. Being rich should be a challenge if you're not part of an organization that can help provide security. People with a lot of money will either need to A) acquire means of protecting it or B) spend it on material possessions or friends. Both help generate interaction between players.

Don't think of fortunes as something to be amassed. Getting rich isn't the goal of your character: surviving is. Money is something to be spent to help keep your character alive. A character with good income who saves little, because they're buying protection, is a lot better off in the long-run than a character with good income who's hoarded everything they've made and have bought zero protection.

A Nenyuki banker takes your coins, scrawls something on a Nenyuk-stamped leather ticket, and hands it to you.


You can assume whatever was scrawled on the ticket denotes how much it is for, for when you bring it back to Nenyuk to access your funds. Super easy fix.

The tickets aren't a construct for trade. The tickets are a construct to break down the disconnect between amassing huge fortunes, and defending huge fortunes. They make those fortunes attainable by those who would harm you to attain them.

[Marauder Moe]

Banknotes accomplish the same thing, though.

[BadSkeelz]

>put ticket pouch

>put pouch belt

>close belt

>close cloak


Fortune defended against almost all but straight-up mugging and murder.

If you really want to make amassing, defending and attacking fortunes a part of the game world, I'd work on getting the fortunes out of Nenyuk as much as possible.

[Desertman]

Banknotes accomplish the same thing, though.

Can you take the banknotes to Nenyuk and exchange them for obsidian coins?

[Desertman]

>put ticket pouch

>put pouch belt

>close belt

>close cloak


Fortune defended against almost all but straight-up mugging and murder.

If you really want to make amassing, defending and attacking fortunes a part of the game world, I'd work on getting the fortunes out of Nenyuk as much as possible.

I'm fine with it being straight up having to carry your coins around too. I was just trying to avoid the OOC annoyance of weight issues limiting for your fortune instead of having to defend your fortune limiting it. It seems like more of an OOC annoyance to deal with coin weight than anything and doesn't, in my opinion, add a great deal to the game.

A ticket makes you defend your fortune just as much as you would have to if it were coins, the only difference is after they loot you, they have to walk to the bank. *shrug*

[Eyeball]

That reminds me of when a Chalton destroyed my tent and attacked me. Still mad.

I was once attacked by a scrab while having an intimate moment in a tent.  It's when I learned that armor didn't really matter at least on that PC.

[Marauder Moe]

Banknotes accomplish the same thing, though.

Can you take the banknotes to Nenyuk and exchange them for obsidian coins?

That is part of the idea, yes.

[whitt]

Pretty sure all this "screwing over the amassing of wealth" would just be one more way veteran players would have a leg up over new players and result in more loss of new players out of a sense of futility.  At least with the bank as it is they can feel like they've done something when they see their first 1,000 sid in the bank.

[awkward]

Throwing in my two cents that I favor the proposition someone mentioned earlier of having more ludicrously overpriced luxury items like metal rings which will effectively take money out of the game. Even if you try to resell said item to a merchant that merchant will likely only be able to pay for a very small fraction of it's value, just like resold luxury goods in real life, and will essentially be a form of conspicuous consumption for the ultra rich who don't need to be sitting on piles of obsidian like Tolkien dragons anyway. Also prevents fortunes from unrealistically going *poof* when a wealthy PC who had all their money in the bank dies.

Long story short I am with the camp that wants to keep the banking system as is. This notion of a ticket system doesn't really solve the core problem and it isn't accessible to certain characters who wouldn't cut deals like that with the banks. Luxury items are open to all sorts of character concepts and achieves BadSkeelz's notion of "If you really want to make amassing, defending and attacking fortunes a part of the game world, I'd work on getting the fortunes out of Nenyuk as much as possible."

(On a phone, sorry for the hastily constructed argument)