Gemmed Temples Idea

[HavokBlue]

Yeah, the drovian help file mentions it.

But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.

[Beethoven]

Yeah, I agree they seem to be outdated and should probably be taken with many grains of purplish salt, but I know that particular enmity is mentioned in the docs, while I haven't found anything specifically stating that fire and water mages should be opposed.

I'm aware I'm coming dangerously close to encouraging a derail here, though, so feel free to ignore this tangent.

[Eyeball]

I got told to stop chilling out in the Vivaduan temple as a newb fire mage because according to the docs fire and water are opposing elements and my character would have been uncomfortable there. That didn't even occur to me at the time because literally every magicker hung out at the Vivaduan temple like 100% of the time. Is that maybe what you're remembering?

Got told by whom?

The problem here is that individuals sometimes try to impose their personal views on the game from positions of in-game authority, and those being imposed upon don't always know whether that's how it's officially supposed to be or not.

I remember a time when a Great Lord of Tor was trying to tell all mages to stay in their own temples and not associate with mages of other temples at all.

[Eyeball]

Then we just moved to the plaza area, which wasn't as central but it was fine.

The plaza is located rather awkwardly. There's even space to move it to a better spot. Not going to happen, I know.

[Delirium]

Or you could twist it so that templarate wants their elementalists to learn to work together efficiently to better serve the city whether they like it or not because the templarate has little to nothing to fear from a bunch of collared mages for IC reasons. Point is you can go in a direction which fosters conflict and interaction or you can go in a direction which further segments and isolates an already sequestered group.

I know which direction I'd want to go in.

(Edit: in response to Fathi posting about gemmed  interaction)

[Lizzie]

Or you could leave it as is, and let groups form - and unform - and not form - organically rather than forcing it one way or another.

Just like in real life, I'd rather my drama be more interesting than being stuck with people I can't stand being stuck with. There's conflict - and there's conflict. If my character doesn't like one person or another, my character can either learn to accept/tolerate, work on destroying an enemy, or find some other group to hang out with. If you eliminate the "find some other group to hang out with" that leaves me with only two options: accept/tolerate or destroy. That's two dimensional and I really would prefer not to have to go either route, if it makes no sense for my character to do either of those two things.

[chuci]

I wouldn't want to see anything official, but I wouldn't want it to be discouraged for gemmed mages to interact either. A middle road is real nice.

[Eyeball]

I'd like to see some four-square chart for opinions on mages. Rows: you play mages or you don't. Columns: you want to see improved interaction opportunities for mages or not.

I'm pretty sure it would look something like this:

Question: should mages have improved interaction opportunities?

	You play mages	You don't play mages
Yes	43	9
No	3	1293839238394

[Narf]

But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.

I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.

I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.

[Asmoth]

Are fire and water supposed to be opposed according to the docs? I mean, it sounds right, but I thought I remembered that the helpfiles said fire and shadow were the ones that don't get along.

It is fire and shadow which are at cross purposes.

Just think of when they are most effective?

[Armaddict]

But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.

I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.

I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.

As far as the helpfiles for the individual mages...I take that description with a grain of salt.  Compare it to the rest of the guilds, and it also describes those guilds as far as 'How are these useful' to describe the 'feel' of the character.  That doesn't mean that everyone is out to actually do it, it describes the tone of it; Rukkians -are- useful desert companions, indeed.  In my view, people going out aren't going to say 'A rukkian would be so useful for us right now!', because aside from that helpfile, all other documentation and authoritative discourse has pointed to the contrary.  

Recently, I feel there's been a decent balance of interaction for mages in Allanak.  I've seen negative, I've seen positive, I've seen plotting, I've seen fear.  I do not feel it is necessary to try and impose change to make them more integrated into the average mundane's life.  I do not think it should ever reach the point where a mundane says 'Feelin' a little under the weather, think I'll have a Vivaduan check it out.'  I do think someone who was just cut horrendously from neck to navel and is holding his guts might start screaming 'MAGE ME UP, OH TEK, IT HURTS, MAGE ME UP.'

As noted by Eyeball...people who -really- like playing mages seem to really want the world to change to allow them more involvement in more things.  People who do not like playing mages do not want to see more encroachment of magick into the mundane world.  -I- do not want to see what was at one time a popular practice, which is a large group of mundanes reduced to bodyguards for mages, and 'party-like' atmospheres.  I'm sorry, but I see it as the same thing as the player of a desert-elf complaining that they don't get enough interaction inside their territory, so they should be allowed to spend more time out of it, or a halfling wanting to be allowed inside the gates of the city because not all halflings are bad and they're bored;  The stigma of mages is a very real part of the role, and it should be played within that role with a certain amount of stretchiness in both directions, but not the point of that stigma itself changing.

I'm not pointing out anyone at all, but more actually drawing on that old argument since it seems to be where this is going to head anyway.  A more creative solution is needed than 'make mages more accepted and make more clans use them'.

Edited to add a contribution to the OP:
My opinion: The temples, or rather the elementalist quarter at large, is a way for the City-State to deal with the fact that it is, on some level or another, highly dependent on the mages that they tolerate.  They could do without them, but it would be a...helluva deal, a giant pain in the ass, and expensive.  However, the populace at large is largely in the dark to this fact, and contrary to what one might think, them finding out would likely not result so much in increased acceptance of mages so much as more rejection of the integrity of their city.  Magick is not something they want to be exposed to, and so a quarter was built for those important elementalist people to use for their craft, away from the prying and superstitious eyes of the common who can't really stomach the idea that magick is benign; every experience and story they hear of it is fear, and all those benevolent acts of mages are the exceptions they have to experience over and over before things start to change.  For most people.  And again, just my opinion on it, and an answer to why they're there but there isn't a giant happy mage enclave in prominence.

[Asmoth]

That's not really my intent, it's just to make the temples more real feeling and an actual gathering point for the cursed people.

But on the subject of Mage fear/hate I feel that's fine to have that as a baseline. But it's unreasonable for someone to continue to fear something they've been around their whole life.

Say I'm a aide in house high and mighty and I've been tasked with spending time with a mate babyeater for years.

Eventually I'm not going to be freaked out by the skulls of long dead babies that soar around the room before they cast their spells, just because it's natural to grow numb to certain things over time.

I think people should fear, till they know how it works and experience it.  So that aide eventually could grow to enjoy spending time with the babyeater because babies are noisy and smell and sometimes you just want someone to eat them. Lol kidding there but I hope you get the gist.

It's different to be wary of a magicker after living a longer lived character and saying something like, "Hey Krathi I don't wanna get burned, so kindly Fuck off and leave me to x.

Than to have the same long lived character go emote emits a high pitched girlish squeal and runs for the hills!
I dunno just my take.

[Narf]

But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.

I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.

I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.

As far as the helpfiles for the individual mages...I take that description with a grain of salt.  

That's fine. Won't break the world at all if you have your characters react as if that particular part of the help files wasn't true. It's not supposed to be true for the majority of the populace.

That said, you're going to have to deal with the fact that assumptions that only the templarate and Oash hire mages is headcannon. It might be very popular headcannon, accepted by perhaps even the majority of players. But new players, or those that do not read the GDB have no access to this. They have access to a helpfile that says that Vivaduans can be reluctantly employed by a number of large organizations.

[Asmoth]

But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.

I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.

I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.

As far as the helpfiles for the individual mages...I take that description with a grain of salt.  

That's fine. Won't break the world at all if you have your characters react as if that particular part of the help files wasn't true. It's not supposed to be true for the majority of the populace.

That said, you're going to have to deal with the fact that assumptions that only the templarate and Oash hire mages is headcannon. It might be very popular headcannon, accepted by perhaps even the majority of players. But new players, or those that do not read the GDB have no access to this. They have access to a helpfile that says that Vivaduans can be reluctantly employed by a number of large organizations.

I personally think more forward thinking leaders SHOULD hire certain witches.

The Byn for instance would greatly benefit from having magical shock troops. Though I know the Byn is where you join to chop mother flickers with bone swords and they will probably never allow gemmed.

[HavokBlue]

It's a pretty real part of the gameworld there, Narf. Try hiring a Viv as a Salarri or whatever house of your choice. You might be able to borrow them for one specific mission after negotiating a deal with the templarate but I guarantee you if you go clan that mage and give him a salary and access to the compound you will have PC templars and your staff jumping down your throat faster than you can blink.

[Armaddict]

That's fine. Won't break the world at all if you have your characters react as if that particular part of the help files wasn't true. It's not supposed to be true for the majority of the populace.

That's pretty much what I said.  You just cut off the part of the quote that explained why it could be viewed that way, and logically, particularly when you take the rest of the documentation that is freely available, such as http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magick, which is not headcanon, i.e. that helpfile seems to follow the same generic template as the other helpfiles on all the other guilds, it is just being taken far more literally in this case (burglars are perhaps the most employable as spies; not everyone wants a spy, not everyone who wants a spy looks for a burglar, and not every burglar ends up working as a spy; likewise, rukkians are useful as travel companions;not everyone wants a travel companion, not everyone who wants a travel companion looks for a rukkian, and every not all rukkians should be travel companions; it is used as a description of what the class is capable of and most useful for; ergo, the rest of the documentation that is in place becomes valid).  While that may not differentiate between clans, it does set a very real baseline for how it is treated for the majority of the gameworld, and clan documentation upon joining those clans generally gives an idea of whether or not this clan is different from the baseline.

That said, you're going to have to deal with the fact that assumptions that only the templarate and Oash hire mages is headcannon. It might be very popular headcannon, accepted by perhaps even the majority of players. But new players, or those that do not read the GDB have no access to this. They have access to a helpfile that says that Vivaduans can be reluctantly employed by a number of large organizations.

It isn't headcanon, it's precedented and documented in clan documentation, here, and in places like where I linked above.  Tor used to hire war mages.  There was a conscious effort to have it changed based off of social stigma.  That is an example of the game world being modified to what makes it fitting, and less indicative of headcanon than it is of documented, real canon.  As far as new players or players without access to the GDB...if a newbie doesn't know better, and starts hiring mages, as already covered, that will not break the game.  However, when the social stigma catches up to them, I'm sure they'll be directed to the relevant information.  I'm unsure what that means to you.

Again.  I think a bit more creativity than just a positive social injection is needed, otherwise you're basically demanding a retcon of culture that has been prevalent in the game for a very long time, which is...fairly drastic.

Edited to add:  Again, these are just my personal interpretations, as you pointed out, Narf, it's just that I don't think they're entirely baseless, and essentially I'm driving for a fresh idea on how the interaction/involvement thing can be addressed without this one.  I'm not averse to more interaction and involvement, I'm just averse to the 'we should make people more friendly to them'...unless some long term catalyst can be implemented/acknowledged/identified that justifies it.

[HavokBlue]

I'm curious if the increase in player density for Allanak will result in more Gemmed mages and more opportunities to interact within their own sphere.

It's interesting to me, because conceivably people who weren't playing Gemmed previously who are now (coming over from Tuluk) wouldn't have had an equivalent role in Tuluk, so you might suppose the increased interaction (and all the cool shit going on in Allanak) is the draw in and of itself.

[wizturbo]

It's a pretty real part of the gameworld there, Narf. Try hiring a Viv as a Salarri or whatever house of your choice. You might be able to borrow them for one specific mission after negotiating a deal with the templarate but I guarantee you if you go clan that mage and give him a salary and access to the compound you will have PC templars and your staff jumping down your throat faster than you can blink.

That's the only issue, no, most clans will not hire your Gemmed in the traditional sense, i.e. put a uniform on them and give them a spot in the barracks.  Many clans will secretly work with Gemmed though, if you make an effort to show how you can provide value.  That's how social stigma works.  For most of the last century homosexuality had a social stigma associated with it, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just meant it wasn't in the public eye.  Now that stupid stigma is gone it's becoming more apparent and accepted.  The same is true for hiring mages.  I've seen large organizations employ the services of my Gemmed many times, but it's rarely been public knowledge.

[HavokBlue]

Hiring that gemmer to do X thing during Y RPT that one time isn't quite the same thing as employing them.

[Molten Heart]

Hiring that gemmer to do X thing during Y RPT that one time isn't quite the same thing as employing them.

What constitutes employment?

[HavokBlue]

If you are 'part' of an organization or House as the help file implies you are presumably a salaried, actual member of the clan.

[Delirium]

I just want to tag on here to say that Vivaduans are some of the most terrifying mages out there, if someone knows how to utilize them.

[Molten Heart]

If you are 'part' of an organization or House as the help file implies you are presumably a salaried, actual member of the clan.

Okay, so you're meaning joining a clan as an employee. Thank you for clarifying.

I agree, clans don't generally knowingly clan gemmed elementalists (except House Oash because that's their shtick.) I'm curious if people would think it'd too taboo for someone to contract elementalists for things like escort jobs. I think it'd be cool to bring a rukkian or vivaduan along for a long trip. I guess the problems start when you're on the trip with your clan (and won't get access to things like clan facilities) and you're going to the northlands (where gemmed aren't welcome.) Are these the reasons people don't hire gemmed, because it's difficult play-ability wise for them to fit in, or simply because of the stigma?

[HavokBlue]

Besides the IC stigma characters should rightfully have regarding mages, there are other IC factors (the templarate, your NPC boss) and OOC factors (staff dictating you can't clan gemmers) that prevent it from happening.

Do these things all make sense to me? Eh. I think I know why you can't hire a gemmer from an OOC standpoint.

Back when there was a PC clan on both sides of the Rinth (post Haruch Kemad) it would turn into an arms race to see who got the strongest mage on their side and that would, as far as I know, strongly impact the course of events for the mundanes in those clans.

I imagine if some GMH hunter players, for example, feel unneeded when the food is provided by a cook... They'd feel similarly unneeded when the clan wizard summons a feast constantly.

[Tetra]

Yeah, the drovian help file mentions it.

But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.

I'd also note:  opposites can attract.  Of course, that won't guarantee they get along well for very long, if at all.

There's nothing stopping a Viv and Krathi from finding each other frustratingly exciting, because their approaches are so contrary to each other.