Have You Ever Seen Elven Noble?

[Gaare]

I was thinking.. I can't remember seeing any higher born elf PC.  In tribes, there are always some blue blood. Probably some families in an elven clan must be more powerful & respected, etc. Are there PC elven nobles?

[Patuk]

No. The closest equivalent is don Corleone the elf, but no straight-up nobles.

[BadSkeelz]

Tribes also don't necessarily have blue bloods. In real life, egalitarianism is pretty common among small groups of hunter-gatherer humans. Whether Zalanthan tribes have chiefs (hereditary or otherwise), diffused decision, or make all their decision via erdlu bones depends on the individual tribe.

[Iiyola]

Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

[whitt]

Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

See what happens?  Mmhmm :sage nod:

[Harmless]

Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Then his entire tribe was deemed not to fit the setting and was retconned. (or something)

[valeria]

Recognizing nobility, or an elf allowing herself to be recognized as nobility, strikes me as the complete opposite of the elven mindset.

[Iiyola]

Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Then his entire tribe was deemed not to fit the setting and was retconned. (or something)

Retconned? They just closed for PCs to my understanding. Just like the Jaxa Pah.

[whitt]

Recognizing nobility, or an elf allowing herself to be recognized as nobility, strikes me as the complete opposite of the elven mindset.

Think of it in layers and the complexity is delicious.

Why is the elf allowing herself to be recognized as nobility?  What do they get from it?  What does whoever made them nobility think they're getting from it?  What's the real play?  

Sure, it might be as simple as "Yay!  I'm a noble, now I can steal with impunity"  but really, a noble taking things?  There's no art in that.  Being made a noble?  zomg they just gave you what?  lol!

[Patuk]

I don't think being recognised as nobility is against an elf's idea very much, but recognising others as such definetly is.

[Armaddict]

Think this is completely loaded question.  Mostly because the equivalent of an 'elven noble' would be in almost no way comparable to 'noble' as we know it aside from wealth, power, resources, etc.  They likely wouldn't have a title, even.

[Harmless]

Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Then his entire tribe was deemed not to fit the setting and was retconned. (or something)

Retconned? They just closed for PCs to my understanding. Just like the Jaxa Pah.

Not going to bother finding staff's official stances on it, but I am pretty sure there were comments made by them about how either a.) the PC role of the akai were not fitting the setting or b.) the roleplay in the akai was not appropriate to the setting.

So yeah, maybe not retconned, but I definitely remember comments along those lines from staff

[valeria]

I don't think being recognised as nobility is against an elf's idea very much, but recognising others as such definetly is.

I think every elf probably thinks that his or her tribe is the greatest tribe that ever existed, and quite possibly thinks that he or she is the best or most competent member of the tribe.  So I just can't imagine elves going to another elf and saying, hey you, you're better than we are, why don't you rule us.

[Armaddict]

I'm confused.

Do people think that power structures do not exist in an elven society?

[HavokBlue]

Different elven groups have different power structures (or a lack thereof) and that is something that should probably be explored in game.

[Patuk]

I don't think being recognised as nobility is against an elf's idea very much, but recognising others as such definetly is.

I think every elf probably thinks that his or her tribe is the greatest tribe that ever existed, and quite possibly thinks that he or she is the best or most competent member of the tribe.  So I just can't imagine elves going to another elf and saying, hey you, you're better than we are, why don't you rule us.

Exactly. Elves wouldn't mind being recognised as noble, but will not do so for others.

[valeria]

Power structures do exist.  But there are differences between having a tribe, where your rulers are generally selected by the group on the basis of personally achieved status, and having a chiefdom, where your rulers are generally selected on the basis of an ascribed status.  "Noble" is a term that implies ascribed status, a hereditary position.

[Armaddict]

Power structures do exist.  But there are differences between having a tribe, where your rulers are generally selected by the group on the basis of personally achieved status, and having a chiefdom, where your rulers are generally selected on the basis of an ascribed status.  "Noble" is a term that implies ascribed status, a hereditary position.

I was actually going to talk about how 'elven nobility' was probably much more based on meritocracy, and wasn't so much an established power structure as a 'This one has earned your respect whether you met him or not.  You don't fuck with this guy.'  But I also think this may be an area where there's a lack of documentation and precedence, and it's kind of up to players to 'wing it' and see how things pan out. Some people will think of that Jaxa leader as an rinthi noble, some will still feel like they can just straight up tell him to fuck himself.  Kind of shifts and changes, whereas the traditional noble is set in stone.

So really, I don't really know.  I'm just a lot more open in my interpretation of interactions between tribes closely packed together, I think.  But I do know that there -was- a social hierarchy eastside, from my time played when Haruch Kemad first reopened.  The documentation spoke of the notable tribes that formed the eastside, the notable people in each tribe, and who was to be listened to when they said things.  A hierarchy.  It was a requirement for them to be able to work together, and it actually made each tribe behave kind of like a separate noble house in the city proper.  They each had their 'areas' of expertise, and prominent leaders.

I always stuck to that format, but I admit it could have changed drastically when the Jaxa clan was put in.

[mansa]

I remember an elf who called himself a noble, who walked around with two half-giant guards.

/is old
//did i dream it?

[Erythil]

Elven tribes have elders and leaders of different kinds, you can learn more about this in game if you ask the right people.

Neither city recognizes any hereditary elven leaders, so there's no nobility per se.

[Gaare]

In a world, where people deeply believe some of them can be better then the other just by birth, I guess that would be rather common to have some members of the society to be considered as "chosen, enlighten, higherborn, etc." Of course, this kind of social hierarchy requires well established traditions and a rather stable population and living space of that particular group. In desert tribes, traditions of leadership could be formed on not birth, but talent. On the other hand, in cities, I was thinking there is always some type of noble within them. Surely those elves would not be in same league with a Borsail, Fale or Oash where their race, humans are dominant and leaders of the city, but nevertheless, there could be elves whom are considered many as higherborns by blood.

[MeTekillot]

Nobles are considered better by birth because the local despot chose them, not the other way around.

[HavokBlue]

I think some people in this thread don't really understand the concept of Zalanthan nobility.

In Zalanthas, you are not nobility unless you are born with a last name like Borsail, or Winrothol, or Kasix.

If you are born with that last name, it is accepted as a fundamental fact of your existence by both you and the common plebs that you are inherently better.

Elven tribes have their own varying power structures but the chief or war leader or leading merchant of a tribe is not comparable to the concept of nobility in either city-state.

[Armaddict]

I think some people in this thread don't really understand the concept of Zalanthan nobility.

In Zalanthas, you are not nobility unless you are born with a last name like Borsail, or Winrothol, or Kasix.

If you are born with that last name, it is accepted as a fundamental fact of your existence by both you and the common plebs that you are inherently better.

Elven tribes have their own varying power structures but the chief or war leader or leading merchant of a tribe is not comparable to the concept of nobility in either city-state.

If you're referring to me, I think you misunderstood what I meant.  I wasn't saying there are elven nobles, but I was saying that there is an equivalent role that is inherently different from the traditional 'noble' due to cultural values.

[HavokBlue]

I was responding primarily to this post:

In a world, where people deeply believe some of them can be better then the other just by birth, I guess that would be rather common to have some members of the society to be considered as "chosen, enlighten, higherborn, etc." Of course, this kind of social hierarchy requires well established traditions and a rather stable population and living space of that particular group. In desert tribes, traditions of leadership could be formed on not birth, but talent. On the other hand, in cities, I was thinking there is always some type of noble within them. Surely those elves would not be in same league with a Borsail, Fale or Oash where their race, humans are dominant and leaders of the city, but nevertheless, there could be elves whom are considered many as higherborns by blood.

[Gaare]

Post is a bit detrailled. I actually got my answer, but this is an interesting subject and I wish to continue.

Local Aristocracy is very foreign to many developed countries, and cultures. When one calls noble, it usually flashes images of  castles, estates, tens, hundreds of servants, soldiers, etc. Actually, nobles do not have to own huge properties or rule over thousands. To a foreigner, one may look like an ordinary person in sense of money, power but it can be higher born in its society and still recieve a lot of privileges. Even today, I know groups of people whose leaders came from same family for centuries. Iraq is a good example. Masoud Barzani, President of Northern Kurdi-Iraq is actually leader of Barzani Clan. There are many clans even today which are not recognized or protected by local goverments but still continue in existance. And leader families of those clans recieve some respect, just because of their family name.

Of course things are very different in Zalanthas. On the other hand, I can think only one way, how there can't be any city elf nobles/highborns (I opened this thread when I got excited and begin reading some Dark Sun material after Patuk's city elf tribe post). That is; In some distant past somehow Tek, Utep managed to completely destroy city elf noble bloodlines, and still Templarate closely monitors if any elven family gains some level of respect over others and destroys that family. Ah, one may ask "so let's say an elf is a noble within his people. So what would be his priviliages?" I really don't know the answer. There are many people here, know about Zalanthian elven culture much more than me around, but I suppose if nothing else that certain elf noble would make friends much easier. Even make easier connection with other parts of population. Or at simplist, can get any lover with ease.

[Marauder Moe]

Tek and Muk don't seek out and destroy offensive noble bloodlines.  Tek and Muk are the ones that create them.  Your house isn't noble until they say so, and if they decide your house is no longer noble, it isn't.

As for elves, inside his tribe he might show great respect for his tribal elders and leaders, but there's no way any elf would be venerated among the entire elven race.  Your tribe is what matters.  Other tribes, even other elven tribes, can go screw themselves.

[Inks]

What moe said. Noble in Zalanthas is a sorc king t
thang.

[Gaare]

I begin to think my English is probably worse then I thought. I used word 'noble' in real meaning(from some dictionary: of, relating to, or belonging to the highest social class). I did not mean members of Noble Class of City-States. Surely all noble houses of Allanak is consist entirely of human race. Who is called noble , who is not by state is defined by ultimately Sorcerer-Kings. Also even within human there is no noble of entire race. They are city-bound. 'naki Noble does not have any status within Tuluk, etc.

I was really talking about elves and some respected bloodlines, families, etc. within them. Apologies for any wrong wording. 

[Marauder Moe]

In the second part of my post I was talking about elves too.

Elves do not have that kind of respect for bloodlines outside of their own tribe.

[nauta]

Obviously you were asking if anyone had seen such a thing, but in the two coded tribes I've been in, the documentation didn't suggest that there was such a thing, nor is it suggested in the docs for elves available to the public in the help files.  But, in principle, it doesn't seem impossible - so maybe there's a virtual tribe out there that has such a culture.  (I'll bet Patuk's tribe has his PC instituted as king-for-life.)

[Patuk]

Find out IC? 

[Malifaxis]

I am so, so, so, so, so not fucking weighing in on this.

[HavokBlue]

I'm laughing more than I should be.

[Malifaxis]

I am walking away.

Gonna be in my cave.
Find my fucking power animal.

[Armaddict]

I am so, so, so, so, so not fucking weighing in on this.

I'm laughing more than I should be.

I don't see why the reaction.  I mean...have either of you played in the Haruch Kemad, or in any clan atmosphere that has multiple groups of elves crammed together into tight spaces with each other over the course of hundreds of years?

[Malifaxis]

Yeah.

You could say I've done that.

[bcw81]

Yeah.

You could say I've done that.

hehehehehehehe

[Armaddict]

Sweet! PMing.

[Dakota]

I am so, so, so, so, so not fucking weighing in on this.

[Iiyola]

Yeah.

You could say I've done that.

I rest my case.

[Zoan]

I am so, so, so, so, so not fucking weighing in on this.

Da, I have seen Elven Noble.

It was asshole Malifaxis played once.

[FantasyWriter]

Code Select Expand

>Backstab templar
>get cloak body
>get signet body
>wear all
>W(like a boss)[like a boss]

[Kol]

I'm laughing more than I should be.

[Norcal]

Why yes, yes I have. In Tuluk. He was clad in silk and lived up in a fancy tower.

Even clad in silks and living in a fancy tower, she never considered herself a Noble.  .  Nobles are to be kept fat, happy and daily drained of excess sid. Kind of like escru. No self respecting necker would allow themselves to sink so low as to become a Noble.

[Bushranger]

Here is your Elven Noble!

[Norcal]

+100. That is funny.

[ShaLeah]

There's a d-elf tribe that I see as elven nobility though since they fancy themselves the [insert IC info here]. Fun to play one like that.

[Asmoth]

Where is that guy shaloooooonsh that ran all the delf tribes for years, he could answer this in seconds.

[bcw81]

Where is that guy shaloooooonsh that ran all the delf tribes for years, he could answer this in seconds.

Heheheheheehehehee

[spicemustflow]

The closest thing I saw to an elven noble were Kanosh. Dark motherfuckers and feared throughout the rinth. RIP clan. I suppose HK were like that before.

[Armaddict]

Edit:  Meh.