City Elf derail#1837

[Nyr]

That said, being told your group of mutually loyalty-tested elves can't call themselves a tribe while in game is, to me, about as silly as being docked karma for calling a surmac a hat in game.

You're preaching to the choir.

I wouldn't say he's preaching to the choir.  Neither of you have been to church in a while.    This has been possible since October 2014!

[valeria]

There we go, now you don't have to ask staff if the policy has changed since the family role rules changed

[whitt]

I wouldn't say he's preaching to the choir.  Neither of you have been to church in a while.    This has been possible since October 2014!

I believe they mean a group of tribeless elves finding a crew of loyalty-tested and trusted folks that forms organically post character creation.  Making that a Tribe.  Which, is to the best of my knowledge, still not possible.

It has been possible to enter game as part of a PC tribe, but not pick up new members or etc...

Not complaining.  Just clarifying the sermon. 

[valeria]

I believe they mean a group of tribeless elves finding a crew of loyalty-tested and trusted folks that forms organically post character creation.  Making that a Tribe.  Which, is to the best of my knowledge, still not possible.

It has been possible to enter game as part of a PC tribe, but not pick up new members or etc...

And as I understand Nyr's response, you can now do that.

[Nyr]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.  I'll clarify without just linking, because the link went to a post which had other links which explained this more in detail.

Can you create a tribe with four other PCs that get "apped" in with you?  Yes.  This is new.
Can you recruit new PCs into your tribe IC? Not at this time.  Why not?  We have seen past abuses of this, and we just did the above step a few months ago.  It may be some more time before we loosen restrictions further.  For now, you can do as Patuk has done and work with us on documentation for the tribe you do want to create.  Help show us that you guys want to do this in a reasonable way, show us that you can create a tribal group and stick to its documentation first, and then we will look into it further.  A word of advice: please talk to us before you send this in so that you do not spend a lot of time on a very lengthy document...we might have suggestions first based on what you are wanting to do.
Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

We haven't been shy about explaining this stuff, it isn't hidden, you only have to ask.  Why don't we trust people to make tribes?  Because past players have abused it.  We are loosening restrictions slowly on this.  If you want to play a city-elf and feel you are stymied by not having a tribe to join, create one yourself.  Otherwise you will need to exercise patience as we get to the next steps for that (which would likely be setting up smaller city elf tribes that could be joined).

[Khorne8]

Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

We haven't been shy about explaining this stuff, it isn't hidden, you only have to ask.  Why don't we trust people to make tribes?  Because past players have abused it.  We are loosening restrictions slowly on this.  If you want to play a city-elf and feel you are stymied by not having a tribe to join, create one yourself.  Otherwise you will need to exercise patience as we get to the next steps for that (which would likely be setting up smaller city elf tribes that could be joined).

Agreed 100%.  Not that there are so many elf PCs in game that there is any real threat of a post-character creation tribe anyway.   

[Patuk]

For now, you can do as Patuk has done and work withA word of advice: please talk to us before you send this in so that you do not spend a lot of time on a very lengthy document.

I kind of hope we'll be able to prove elves can do well if/when the app gets approved, though. I kept a lot of OOC considerations in mind while creating the tribe, one of which was recruitment; there is a way for outsiders to join, if for whatever reason they think it's beneficial.

As long as staff say no to that though, I think I'll just go for the spoilt kid stance instead. "See this shit? This awesome shit? Fuck you, it's mine! You can't have any!"

[CodeMaster]

I think having a family (or hey a tribe) is one of the understated powers of city elves.

If I app into the game with a human family, there's no racial documentation about how human family members treat each other.  It may exist in the clan documents, but human power-grabbing being what it is, I may as well expect murder, corruption, and betrayal from the PC playing my PC's sister.

If you app into the game with an elven family, there's strict documentation about how much you trust your family.  These guys will never betray you (they'd prefer to die, at least).  They won't steal from you, fly into a jealous rage and try to badname or even murder you.  They're your backup.  There's an OOC level of comfort there.

Good luck Patuk. 

[whitt]

I think having a family (or hey a tribe) is one of the understated powers of city elves.

Hah!  Human Dominance Derail #1!  There is absolutely nothing preventing human PCs from behaving exactly like Elves.  They are just not expected to.

[FantasyWriter]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.  I'll clarify without just linking, because the link went to a post which had other links which explained this more in detail.

Can you create a tribe with four other PCs that get "apped" in with you?  Yes.  This is new.
Can you recruit new PCs into your tribe IC? Not at this time.  Why not?  We have seen past abuses of this, and we just did the above step a few months ago.  It may be some more time before we loosen restrictions further.  For now, you can do as Patuk has done and work with us on documentation for the tribe you do want to create.  Help show us that you guys want to do this in a reasonable way, show us that you can create a tribal group and stick to its documentation first, and then we will look into it further.  A word of advice: please talk to us before you send this in so that you do not spend a lot of time on a very lengthy document...we might have suggestions first based on what you are wanting to do.
Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

We haven't been shy about explaining this stuff, it isn't hidden, you only have to ask.  Why don't we trust people to make tribes?  Because past players have abused it.  We are loosening restrictions slowly on this.  If you want to play a city-elf and feel you are stymied by not having a tribe to join, create one yourself.  Otherwise you will need to exercise patience as we get to the next steps for that (which would likely be setting up smaller city elf tribes that could be joined).

What was being abused? I don't think I've ever seen it said.  Were people just jumping in and trying to form tribes with people as soon as they met to get around working with staff on the front end?

[Nyr]

Endless families/tribes that never died out, living way beyond any one player, and exacting endless vengeance upon the enemies of the family/tribe by being able to just roll up yet another person to join it/be part of it.  Sometimes things are so bad we nuke them with a cobalt salted bomb.  You may recall the Klestions as an embodiment of "how bad it could be."  It wasn't really just a bit of harmless fun, there was definite abuse going on.

For this, though, I think it was a change for the better.  Old Kank, were you around for the Klestions?  A group of people made a family calling themselves Klestion, and if I understand things correctly, when one of them was playing a Klestion and died (in at least one instance) the player turned around and made another one.  It was OOC abuse and lead to some unrealistic things happening in game.  The new policy is to ensure that people aren't trying to sneak things in, unrealistic things.  It is to ensure that the staff are aware of what's going on.  It's to ensure that things aren't completely pre-arranged by a group of people to give themselves an advantage they shouldn't have in game because of their OOC planning.

I applaud this change from the bottom of my heart.  I was playing in Tuluk when the Klestion situation came about, and it was stupid.

As one of the folk who lived through The Klestion Years (yeah, you.  For those who don't know, LARGE family from about 2002 or something), I am strongly against prefab families.  Fuck that.  We have to struggle and fight and worry about if X is going to backstab us, so should everyone else.

However, as one of the folk who helped eliminate The Klestion Problem (yeah, you, I took two of you out and had fun cutting up both bodies, one of you while still alive), I can't encourage them enough, just because I love killing them so damn much.  So much, in fact, that Spawnloser and I designed a dish called The Klestion.

We've definitely loosened things up since then, but this is largely where the restrictions came from: players abusing things to the extent that we had to stop it and put controls on it.

[Patuk]

I don't want to argue against that being shitty behavior, but what stops a person from doing so with just about any other clan/concept?

[Cind]

I don't want to argue against that being shitty behavior, but what stops a person from doing so with just about any other clan/concept?

Seniors of the houses/clans (like high-ranking house family members, upper-class nobles, red robe templars, and staff) stomping a hole in little guys who cause trouble, and also said little guys (all of us) not being able to attain seniority anywhere of any kind.

[BadSkeelz]

I think Patuk meant from an OOC angle: There's nothing to stop a player from endlessly joining the same coded Clan and following an OOC-derived agenda. Like a person who joins the militia over and over, because they know if they can stick around for juuuust enough time they'll get the crim-code ability they need to gank near anyone in the City.

[Armaddict]

Can you meet up with other people IC and decide to call them a tribe because you all have done elven tests of loyalty with each other, or because you just have hung out for a while and what not?  No.  Why not?  See above on abuses. 

Eh.  They won't be a coded tribe, but this is the exact behavior that the elven mentality fosters.  So you can say it's not allowed, but that's how it will be played nevertheless.  It just takes long periods of time for them to come to that pattern of behavior.  In a sense, it's no different than a group of friends in any other part of the game, but this one is more closely bonded together.

Just saying...that context appears to be out of place.  Elves are tribal.  Tribeless elves, with tested and true people, will treat their highest regarded people as their tribe due to lack of a higher step in their social hierarchy.